You Wont Believe His Story Until You Hear It. Master of Wine Tim Hanni

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And consider that's where the wine industry is right now.

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You're too stupid to know what you like. You've got to

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learn this special language. You've got to learn this word

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terroir from experts who don't even know

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the etymology of the word and that it used to

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be not from the dirt. Terroir had nothing

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to do with the soil. It was soiled

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wine, like soiled diapers. It was

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the worst levels of Britanna Mices that the wine

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smelled and tasted like crap. Sit back and

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grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul

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K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with

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Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in a little bit of a rainy

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day here in Southern California, about to have a conversation with Tim Hani, Master

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of Wine. Introductions in just a moment. Have a listen to my new

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podcast coming out in a week or two, which is called Song of America,

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which celebrates the life of George Mardiqui and the famed

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restaurateur from the 50s and 60s and his book called Song

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of America. Its stories of immigration to America,

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political, social or financial success in landing here. But now

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while we're here, here to have a conversation with Tim Hanai. Welcome to the show,

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Mr. Hannah. Thank you very much, Paul. Great to be here. Good to see you

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again. This is Master of Wine, wine educator. And we were just chatting a little

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bit off camera about with a, the variety of,

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of the personality traits that he has and how he got

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here into this crazy industry. But you, you said you're bit

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bipolar, ADHD and a little bit like

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dyslexic and dyslexic. Yeah, yeah, that's all

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I was. I was the kid. No, no teacher ever wanted in their

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classroom all through my

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educational. But that's, you know, that's interesting because the Master of

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Wine is a tough road. I mean and you're the second, I think American to

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pass the test. And it takes like at least what, a minimum of five years

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to get that degree? Well, Joel Butler and I were the

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passive the same year, so he and I were the first. And

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so what was the minimum time frame you would say? For

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some it's a bit of a.

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Longer conversation, but it actually fits into the

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thread. I

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was accepted into the program and first sat

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the Master of wine exam in 1989. Wow.

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And they had just in 1988

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changed the areas of the examination

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about the wine trade and wine business that

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prior to 1988 had been you.

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You virtually had to work in the UK wine trade to pass the exam.

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Very specific. Things on bonds and oh really?

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Wow. Trade elements. In

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1988, Michael Hillsmith from Australia became the

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first non UK

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resident to, to pass the exam. And so

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I read in the Wine Spectator they were opening this up to

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international candidates as we were, as we were

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got deemed. And so I, I had to

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send in a, a, a thesis, winemaking science

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or art? And I said yes. And

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they said great, come sit the exam. And, and I, and there was a

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blind tasting also. So in 1989 there were

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six Americans, one of which Patrick

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Fagan, who passed away a number of years ago from Chicago,

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had actually taken it in 1988. But

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in, in 1999 or 89, Joel

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Butler and Mary Mulligan and Harriet Lembeck and

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a bunch, bunch of us went over and sat the exam

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and there was no structure there. I had never even really even

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seen an example

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of the test questions or the examination

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questions. The, the blind

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tasting segment is there's actually three blind

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tastings, 12 wines each

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sections and, and it's a much more of

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a deductive and technical process than

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today's descriptive, you know, fruits and

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vegetable and spices crap.

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So, so I was one of the most

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epic failures in the history of the examination in

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1989. Well, congratulations. Thank you.

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For years, David Stevens, who was the chairman of

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the Institute is who introduced me.

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Tim fared so poorly on the examination in 1989.

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I was trying to find, I had pen and paper in hand, trying to find

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a polite way to say, Mr. Hanai, please stay away for a long

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time. Wow. Let's stop there for a second

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because that's really interesting a that the format sort of changed. And this is for

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listeners who don't understand that the Master of Wine is probably the most coveted

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certification degree in wine study and it takes, you

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know, minimum of many years of study to do it. But what you're

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explaining is something that I semi experienced and that is, you know, what the

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uk, what, what they were looking for versus what

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you understood it to be, in other words. Well, the long and short of

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it, I can't write and I don't read. And add that to the

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mix. Yeah, we can backtrack

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just a bit. So I, I, I started

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reading and studying about wine in

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1966. I was 14 years old.

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Interesting. Yeah. And my dad was

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the executive director of the Dade County Medical Association. As a matter

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of fact, his, his Shender Rota search thing, he's right up here next

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to my Master of Wine. Wow. Might

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as well get this out sooner rather than later if you've not read in

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detail about me. I'm a Recovering alcoholic for

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32 years. So you just, you're just piling it on, aren't

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you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I may qualify

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as one of the weirdest people you ever,

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so. But somehow

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wine just captured my attention. I was a budding

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alcoholic. My dad's an alcoholic. He loved volney

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and an early adopter of, of

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gourmet cooking and, and stuff like that. That's interesting. And

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by the time I was 15, which is literally the date on his

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Shen Rota s thing up on the wall, I wanted to be, I

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wanted to be in the wine business. That was my, my first passion.

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But the books I was reading

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and, and continue to read today in the bathroom is my coveted

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copy of Larus Gastronomique from

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1938. I have a modern version of

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that book. Yeah, go on Amazon.

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Everybody watching this, get the 1931

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Crown Edition. We are going to see the copy of this

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1931 Crown Edition.

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I took the book out the other day. We had a caterer that is the

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1931 bound version one. Well, this is, this

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was the first translation

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into English was

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1961. So the 1961

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is the crown edition, first

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translation. And so it's as close to the

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1938 original as you can find.

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Interesting. Yeah, I took a copy out the other day. We had a

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caterer come and I was looking for a recipe, I can't remember which

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sauce it was. And she goes, are you, are you looking at La

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Gastronique? I said, yes. And she's like, wow, wow, that's pretty bizarre.

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So go on. So you, well, actually this, Stop there for a second. This is

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very interesting because you said you were reading books in the

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60s about wine, which, which I do

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frequently. The difference between today's writing and then

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because I love reading books written in that era and

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them going back from that point in time to, to describe The Wine

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Trade vs Books written today that just only go back, you

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know, in more recent history. What have you found as, as

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writers of the sixties, books different from today's writers.

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So in, in with me thing, I'll,

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I'll suck you into my world of

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attention deficit and dyslexia and, and

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everything else. The wine industry.

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I, I, I, I just turned 73, so

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I get to say things like this because I'm almost dead.

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The wine industry has just lost its way.

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We are so full of ourselves. We are so disconnected

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from history. We are so disconnected

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from any

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reality. And it's just really A shame

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that things have gotten this way.

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What's being taught in the educational programs. I worked really

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hard to, to try to influence,

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but no one really wants to hear it.

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So one of the things that, that,

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that in 1990, Jancis Robinson

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declared me the guru of wine and food pairing.

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And we'll get to, to my epiphany or

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nervous breakdown. But if you, if you look in Larouse

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Gastronomique and go into the section on

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wine and the reason that this, this was so

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attractive to me is it's, it's set up for people with

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adhd. You can bounce around in it. You don't have to read.

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Oh, well, it'd be good for me too, because I've been

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accused of that. Yeah. So,

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you know, people are still embarrassed and carry the

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stigma of, you know, I've got learning disabilities,

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you know, pure and simply. But you've,

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you've, you've. I found ways to manage. And if

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you don't know, you've got, if you don't know

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who you are and, and how your

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brain operates. And, and this is my current, this is what I

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do now. This is my passion, is

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researching perceptual sciences, the

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genetics, neural

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channel conditioning, neural pathway conditioning,

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brain plasticity, and psychology of perception.

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And we're all unique and different, but the wine, the wine

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industry, we give it a little lip service.

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Oh, everybody's palate's different, but we don't know how different.

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And it can be so vastly and profoundly different. Some people

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have 500 taste buds, other people have 12,000.

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Right. And the people who have 12,000 are sweet wine drinkers.

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They can't stand dry wine. Seriously, I could easily buy

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that because the whole argument right now without getting

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too far from the tangent, but, you know, whether the tongue is broken into

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its distinct segments of perception or

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whether your tire tongue has all types of perception all the way through

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is, you know, you know, standard argument when it comes to that thing. But

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go on. I want you to. Yeah, all right. So, so, so

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just on, on, on, on. One point where I become very

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controversial is since 1990, I've gone from

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the guru of wine and food pairing

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to leading a global mission to eliminate

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wine and food pairing and completely reorganize

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it. I'm kind of on that page, but I want you to

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continue that thought because that's fascinating. Well,

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why don't we continue it later? But I'm going to give one tease here

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in Larousse Gastronomique was the introduction

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of tables showing the serving of wines

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and if you actually go back to the original text

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of Larousse Gastronomique,

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they defer all the way back

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centuries that when you bring out

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your. Your fanciest dishes, the, the.

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It used to be called the entreme, of course. And the funny thing,

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these were sweets. That's when the fanciest

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dishes are served. That's when you serve the fanciest wines,

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the Bordeaux

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Lafitte, the delicious Romanet, the Hermitage, the Cote

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Roti, or if the guests

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prefer the white wine of Bordeaux, the

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Sauterne, the Sans Pere, et cetera.

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Sweet. Wow. So those were considered the white wines of Bordeaux at that

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point. Yeah. People of today aren't being taught that the French

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loved sweet wines. Yeah, We've got this stupid

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notion that Americans like sweet

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wines because they grew up on Coca Cola. Yet when this

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book was written, it was quite typical for French champagne, as

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preferred in France to be 100 to

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140 grams per liter of sugar. Sweeter than

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Coca Cola. That's very sweet. And nobody knows us

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anymore. Well, let me ask this. You said this. And it's

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an important part to peel back because I completely agree

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that. We may agree that there's the disconnect in this

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industry. We may disagree on why or how it came

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about. But when you say disconnected from history,

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are you saying that the explanation, the

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study of the intrigue of the romance of

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wine has been muddled because of the

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disconnection of history? And, and this is my circular

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thing, I'm actually going to ask you a question or answer a question that you

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asked. And that's about the wine writers. Back then they

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were all salesmen. Interesting.

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Freddy Wildman, Wildman and sons, Alexis

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Lachine, etc. Etc.

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And no is is the

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impact that that had such

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that let's. I'm a champion of sweet

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wine drinkers, but I also leverage this in my

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product development consulting and in everything I

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do. If you look in the. Even in 1961 when

245
00:15:02,836 --> 00:15:06,316
they put in the table showing the serving of wines

246
00:15:06,508 --> 00:15:10,240
with the soup and the wine enthusiast just did a

247
00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:14,244
wine and soup matching chart and it just all

248
00:15:14,412 --> 00:15:17,480
such BS with soup

249
00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:21,560
back in the. In France,

250
00:15:22,220 --> 00:15:25,588
Madeira, Marsala, Port Sherry or

251
00:15:25,644 --> 00:15:29,476
Zuko. Zuko. So Zuko

252
00:15:29,508 --> 00:15:32,708
was sweet Italian wines, the general

253
00:15:32,764 --> 00:15:36,206
category with fish and hors d'oeuvres, Bar

254
00:15:36,278 --> 00:15:39,470
Sack, Chablis, Chateau Carbonau,

255
00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:43,438
Chateau de Chem, Meursault. No, those are completely different.

256
00:15:43,494 --> 00:15:46,850
Chateau Caberneau and Chateau Chem. They're not. You know, unless

257
00:15:47,270 --> 00:15:51,102
most graves were sweet. They were actually sweet then

258
00:15:51,126 --> 00:15:54,430
too, because. That'S what we lost. There's the term

259
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:57,870
medium grave, which was. Was probably

260
00:15:57,950 --> 00:16:01,492
90% of all the grave consumed was actually

261
00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:04,040
3 to 5% residual sugar.

262
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:09,236
The other thing we don't know is wines that we are

263
00:16:09,308 --> 00:16:13,060
absolutely. People bitch and moan about

264
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:16,772
Mayomi having a little bit of sweetness with the

265
00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:20,276
sweet course. They're recommending Muscat

266
00:16:20,388 --> 00:16:23,300
de Frontignon, Rhine wines,

267
00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:27,276
Montrachet and Hermitage Blanc because

268
00:16:27,348 --> 00:16:30,764
those two wines were freaking sweet. The

269
00:16:30,852 --> 00:16:34,284
bottle of great Chardonnay Monrocher is not

270
00:16:34,372 --> 00:16:38,172
dry wine. You're kidding. And now we bitch and moan

271
00:16:38,236 --> 00:16:41,932
about Maomi having a couple percent of, you

272
00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:45,420
know, less than 2% of residual sugar. The

273
00:16:45,460 --> 00:16:49,212
greatest wine considered in history by many. And I

274
00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:53,020
was in the rare wine for business for a long time. If we

275
00:16:53,060 --> 00:16:55,970
were doing a. A blind tasting of

276
00:16:56,010 --> 00:16:57,470
1947

277
00:16:59,370 --> 00:17:02,930
Bordeaux, Chateau Cheval Blanc was so

278
00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:06,562
easy to recognize because it was over

279
00:17:06,666 --> 00:17:10,482
30 grams per liter of sugar, 3% sugar.

280
00:17:10,626 --> 00:17:14,146
And this is just for the listeners. The perception of sugar

281
00:17:14,258 --> 00:17:18,002
kicks in like when 5 grams a liter or something

282
00:17:18,026 --> 00:17:21,089
like that, or 8 grams a liter. 5 grams per. Per liter.

283
00:17:21,169 --> 00:17:24,465
0.5%. Yeah, yeah, but that's

284
00:17:24,497 --> 00:17:28,321
highly, highly variable given what I was saying before, and

285
00:17:28,345 --> 00:17:31,857
this is a term I'll use a lot. Perceptual

286
00:17:31,953 --> 00:17:35,229
individualism is,

287
00:17:36,009 --> 00:17:39,681
is a concept I'm forwarding and actually created.

288
00:17:39,825 --> 00:17:43,649
And it's based on what you see, hear, taste, smell, and

289
00:17:43,689 --> 00:17:45,869
whatever might be similar

290
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,000
in ways to what I taste, hear, smell and

291
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,180
see, but it can also be vastly different.

292
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,864
And so people with certain

293
00:17:58,032 --> 00:18:01,880
hypersensitivities or tolerances might

294
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,420
be able to distinguish that

295
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,720
a bit of residual sugar at 0.6 or

296
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,544
0.7 others might not. Until over

297
00:18:13,632 --> 00:18:17,386
1%. My wife and I have radically different

298
00:18:17,458 --> 00:18:21,110
perception. Oh, hers is much keener than mine, actually.

299
00:18:21,490 --> 00:18:25,146
Well, and that's very typical. And it's not better than yours.

300
00:18:25,258 --> 00:18:28,490
Right. It's hers and it's similar to people like

301
00:18:28,530 --> 00:18:31,930
hers. So then we take. We

302
00:18:31,970 --> 00:18:35,610
take grains of information and so

303
00:18:35,650 --> 00:18:39,466
over blow it and can misconstrue it

304
00:18:39,538 --> 00:18:42,390
and create pseudoscience around

305
00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:46,810
it would create this world of bs. And now

306
00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:50,602
we're wondering. Wine consumption's down a little bit

307
00:18:50,626 --> 00:18:54,410
in the US and not looking good. Wine consumption in

308
00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:57,910
China is down 65% in five years

309
00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:02,470
since my birth year 1952.

310
00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:06,618
How many people know that wine consumption in France, Italy

311
00:19:06,634 --> 00:19:09,830
and Spain is down over 85%?

312
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:14,862
So let's talk about that for a second. There's a whole bunch of influences

313
00:19:14,926 --> 00:19:18,702
for that, not the least of which today is this non alk loac Whatever that

314
00:19:18,726 --> 00:19:22,382
is. But is that part of this disconnection from history? In other

315
00:19:22,406 --> 00:19:25,982
words, we don't understand the value of this

316
00:19:26,086 --> 00:19:29,486
beverage anymore. And you said that the industry's

317
00:19:29,518 --> 00:19:32,750
myopic earlier in the conversation. That was that.

318
00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:36,302
Myopic in its ability to present terroir.

319
00:19:36,446 --> 00:19:39,490
Myopic and its ability to attract new customers.

320
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:43,814
Where are. Do you see that as the problem? Because here's what

321
00:19:43,822 --> 00:19:47,490
I wrote. Real. I'm just going to quote myself in a recent post, which was.

322
00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:52,470
It was. I forgot. The article was about Constellation Brands selling off their

323
00:19:52,510 --> 00:19:56,342
wine division. And they're pure business. Right. The profit's not there. Why do

324
00:19:56,366 --> 00:19:59,734
we keep this stuff around? But I wrote margins suck. There's a

325
00:19:59,742 --> 00:20:03,382
generational gap. Sales dip. There's too much crap

326
00:20:03,446 --> 00:20:07,206
came into the marketplace early on, souring the taste. Pun intended.

327
00:20:07,398 --> 00:20:11,088
But there's hope because wine has been around for thousands of years

328
00:20:11,144 --> 00:20:14,768
and will always be around. And I always think each generation will

329
00:20:14,824 --> 00:20:18,512
find that that historical moment. Consumption

330
00:20:18,576 --> 00:20:21,664
in France is down 85%. That's

331
00:20:21,712 --> 00:20:25,220
amazing. Binge. No wonder we're in trouble.

332
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,280
Teen binge drinking is greater in

333
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,928
France than it is in the United States. But that's obviously not because

334
00:20:32,984 --> 00:20:35,300
we're so. Wedded to the BS

335
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:39,470
and we so lack any ability of critical

336
00:20:39,550 --> 00:20:42,850
thinking and of adaptation,

337
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:47,022
which is kind of my new thing. We'll get on that somewhere

338
00:20:47,086 --> 00:20:50,910
later. But here's a question I have for you,

339
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:54,078
Paul. What wine

340
00:20:54,254 --> 00:20:57,966
education program are you aware of that

341
00:20:58,038 --> 00:21:00,090
teaches you about

342
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,620
consumers? I mean, deeply.

343
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,900
There. None. There really is none.

344
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,592
So that's a great. If you go back to the

345
00:21:11,616 --> 00:21:15,176
beginning. Beginning of computing. How early did you get into

346
00:21:15,248 --> 00:21:19,016
computing? I was an early adapter. I had a CPM

347
00:21:19,048 --> 00:21:22,744
machine. Okay. So if you wanted to do something,

348
00:21:22,912 --> 00:21:25,900
what did you have to do on your keyboard

349
00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:31,070
to. To open a folder or to start a program?

350
00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:35,570
I don't remember. Function key. Or is there like the

351
00:21:35,610 --> 00:21:39,362
C colon for. You had. Yeah, yeah. We have dot. That was

352
00:21:39,386 --> 00:21:42,578
dos. That was even after cpm. Well, CPM had a similar

353
00:21:42,714 --> 00:21:45,650
prompt. Yeah. So. So there was an

354
00:21:45,690 --> 00:21:48,994
interface that. That was a forced

355
00:21:49,122 --> 00:21:52,402
technology. It required the user to adapt to the

356
00:21:52,426 --> 00:21:55,888
product. Right. And some people

357
00:21:56,024 --> 00:21:59,824
loved it because that's how their brains work. It gave them power.

358
00:21:59,912 --> 00:22:03,568
Look at me, I'm expert. There were people

359
00:22:03,624 --> 00:22:07,024
who computed because they had to but hated

360
00:22:07,072 --> 00:22:10,300
it. And then there were those who said,

361
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,632
no, I'm not going to do this. And consider that's where the

362
00:22:15,656 --> 00:22:19,370
wine industry right now is right now. You're too

363
00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:23,018
stupid to know what you like. You've got to learn this

364
00:22:23,074 --> 00:22:26,750
special language. You've got to learn this word terroir

365
00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:31,082
from experts who don't even know the etymology of the

366
00:22:31,106 --> 00:22:34,506
word and that it used to be. Not from the

367
00:22:34,578 --> 00:22:38,058
dirt. Terroir had nothing to do with the soil.

368
00:22:38,234 --> 00:22:41,882
It was soiled wine, like soiled

369
00:22:41,946 --> 00:22:45,490
diapers. It was the worst levels of

370
00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:48,930
Britanna mice that the wine smelled and tasted like

371
00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:52,802
crap. The worst thing you could say about a wine was this

372
00:22:52,826 --> 00:22:56,470
is a van to tear off. But wow,

373
00:22:57,850 --> 00:23:01,378
phenomenal. Never heard that. Nobody's heard this in

374
00:23:01,434 --> 00:23:05,234
what's. So anyways, I get kind of riled up by

375
00:23:05,242 --> 00:23:09,042
the way. Well, let's go, let's go. That language of

376
00:23:09,066 --> 00:23:12,762
wine thing. And you're taught, you're, you're. And I'm trying to bring you into this

377
00:23:12,786 --> 00:23:16,522
level where the consumer. We can understand each other because you're, you're actually at

378
00:23:16,546 --> 00:23:20,202
a way deeper level than a conversation I've ever had on this subject. But

379
00:23:20,226 --> 00:23:23,882
it's really fascinating. But let's just talk contemporarily. This

380
00:23:23,906 --> 00:23:27,674
is. Yeah. And maybe this is where you're seeing your, where the problem exists

381
00:23:27,722 --> 00:23:31,434
for you with people. We're just. Let me finish the training. Go

382
00:23:31,442 --> 00:23:34,954
ahead. Yeah, go ahead. And so what happens is,

383
00:23:35,042 --> 00:23:38,798
is Steve Jobs came out and

384
00:23:38,854 --> 00:23:42,590
said we need to flip this. We

385
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:45,730
need to make computing

386
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:49,854
a consumer product. We need to study

387
00:23:49,942 --> 00:23:53,598
consumers and behaviors. And look what we

388
00:23:53,654 --> 00:23:57,422
did. We invented a mouse and you can move

389
00:23:57,446 --> 00:24:00,542
it around the screen and now there's a little picture of a

390
00:24:00,566 --> 00:24:04,308
folder. Click, click. I'm computing. Actually

391
00:24:04,364 --> 00:24:08,020
Xerox invented that, but that's okay. And as you

392
00:24:08,060 --> 00:24:11,700
recall, when the graphic user interface was invented,

393
00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:15,508
a lot of the gatekeepers who had learned all the dos were

394
00:24:15,564 --> 00:24:19,040
actually up in arms. No, we don't know.

395
00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:22,800
Where will that get us? Well, look around. I mean,

396
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:26,596
my refrigerator is a computer, my microwave is a computer.

397
00:24:26,708 --> 00:24:30,372
I've got a portable computer. I've talked in a laptop, my TV's a

398
00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:33,452
computer. It never would have happened

399
00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:36,200
until the computing industry

400
00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:40,220
completely changed the

401
00:24:40,260 --> 00:24:43,948
direction to the consumer. Yet the wine industry has nothing

402
00:24:44,044 --> 00:24:46,840
in any of its education and

403
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:51,052
even all the really well intended PhD

404
00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:54,080
level consumer

405
00:24:54,980 --> 00:24:57,800
research people are actually using.

406
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,620
The starting point is so flawed and biased to begin with

407
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,220
that we can't predict what's going to happen. We never

408
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,460
have been able to predict what's happening and we can't do it now.

409
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,976
It was thought for decades, as you know, we've got to educate

410
00:25:16,008 --> 00:25:19,640
the consumers, we've got to educate the staff, we've got to educate.

411
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,240
There's so much wine education out there. It's almost like the

412
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:25,820
certified wine educators are becoming

413
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:30,572
greater number than the consumers. That's a

414
00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:34,252
great point. Yeah, I just, I had a sales call and I told the

415
00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:38,124
story once before but the new distributor reps came in, young boys

416
00:25:38,172 --> 00:25:41,756
and you know, now you have to have W

417
00:25:41,828 --> 00:25:45,468
set 1 or 2 or whatever number level just to get a job.

418
00:25:45,524 --> 00:25:49,356
And so you're right. And it's not about whether they care about the education.

419
00:25:49,508 --> 00:25:52,200
They just want a job. Right. They just want to work.

420
00:25:53,290 --> 00:25:56,706
And. And I've got a. An on again off of WSET is

421
00:25:56,778 --> 00:26:00,338
adopting my principles of wine and food interaction

422
00:26:00,434 --> 00:26:03,750
and what's called sensory modulation.

423
00:26:04,410 --> 00:26:08,018
So they've been doing that for. For almost 15 years now

424
00:26:08,154 --> 00:26:11,874
and it's almost complete. So they're, they're moving away from wine

425
00:26:11,922 --> 00:26:15,250
and food pairing and they're starting to

426
00:26:15,370 --> 00:26:19,212
add the bits and pieces of the

427
00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,480
research I've done into perceptual individualism.

428
00:26:23,220 --> 00:26:26,876
But yet there they won't bring me in to actually

429
00:26:26,948 --> 00:26:30,764
help them really understand it. Which frankly, what would

430
00:26:30,772 --> 00:26:33,052
you tell them to do? I don't want to interrupt you, but I want to

431
00:26:33,076 --> 00:26:35,960
ask you a question. If you were to go into W

432
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:40,412
the, you know, the court of SOM or the Master of Wine program and say,

433
00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:43,400
hey, I'm creating this new

434
00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:47,738
path of consumer knowledge, consumer education for

435
00:26:47,874 --> 00:26:51,322
people that are in the art trade trying to study wine. Because you're right,

436
00:26:51,426 --> 00:26:55,002
it's the lip service that's on the Internet today when it comes to

437
00:26:55,026 --> 00:26:58,762
wine is just drives me nuts because it's just a bunch of people have

438
00:26:58,786 --> 00:27:02,362
not been through the ringer and they're just talking about theories that they think they

439
00:27:02,386 --> 00:27:06,058
have, they don't even know and they haven't read the history. Theoretical. Yeah, it's

440
00:27:06,074 --> 00:27:09,700
all theoretical and it's not based on anything because I haven't read La

441
00:27:09,740 --> 00:27:13,380
Gasser Gastronomic or like I said,

442
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:16,996
reading some of the books. My dad has in his collection hundreds of wine books

443
00:27:17,028 --> 00:27:20,868
that were written by those guys back then. Looking backwards, I mean it's

444
00:27:20,884 --> 00:27:24,660
amazing what you find. But what would you tell them? What would you

445
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:28,212
say to the courtesy? Hey, I'm starting a new

446
00:27:28,236 --> 00:27:31,636
division on consumerism. This is what it's going to be about. This is the program.

447
00:27:31,788 --> 00:27:34,720
I've been tooting this horn now for 30 years.

448
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:37,650
And here's the response.

449
00:27:38,790 --> 00:27:42,410
Oh, Mr. Hannite, please, why don't you tell us what you think?

450
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:48,930
Go ahead. Louder.

451
00:27:50,710 --> 00:27:54,050
And you know, this insane. Oh,

452
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:58,430
it's storytelling. It's this and this. So to kind of corral this

453
00:27:58,470 --> 00:28:02,180
all together. I teach wine business.

454
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,880
I have a company, we create winery financial

455
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,384
calculators. I'm on faculty

456
00:28:09,432 --> 00:28:12,632
at Washington State University, Linfield

457
00:28:12,776 --> 00:28:15,980
University. I work with Hong Kong Polytechnic,

458
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,340
Caesar Ritz schools of hospitality in Switzerland and

459
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,424
so on. So there's the business side of me.

460
00:28:24,592 --> 00:28:28,380
It sounds like it's just, you know,

461
00:28:28,420 --> 00:28:31,836
your day job. That's my day job. Well,

462
00:28:31,988 --> 00:28:35,240
yeah, or a part time jobless, let's call it.

463
00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:40,140
The other part of what I do is consulting for

464
00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:43,560
wineries with the insights that I bring forward.

465
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:48,200
So I do consumer research and,

466
00:28:49,220 --> 00:28:52,294
and I, I do help with new product

467
00:28:52,492 --> 00:28:56,190
development and so forth. And so

468
00:28:56,570 --> 00:28:59,698
how, how my crazy brain gets applied.

469
00:28:59,794 --> 00:29:02,950
2007 I was doing work with Gallo,

470
00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:08,242
with Rich Boone who is their consumer insights guru.

471
00:29:08,386 --> 00:29:11,906
Wonderful guy. And I was brought in

472
00:29:12,058 --> 00:29:15,442
to, to a

473
00:29:15,466 --> 00:29:19,190
Trinchero Sutter Home kind of executive

474
00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:24,570
product ideation meeting. What's the next big

475
00:29:24,610 --> 00:29:27,722
thing? And I was brought in by a senior

476
00:29:27,786 --> 00:29:31,530
Behringer person that I worked with who then went

477
00:29:31,570 --> 00:29:35,322
to work with with Trinchero and said, oh, if you

478
00:29:35,346 --> 00:29:38,970
want wacky ideas, bring in Tim. And

479
00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:41,430
so in 2007

480
00:29:43,010 --> 00:29:46,588
they said okay, what's the next big thing? And,

481
00:29:46,724 --> 00:29:50,252
and then they shared with me we're looking at single vineyard, Cabernet

482
00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:53,404
and this and that. And I said okay. I said no, it's

483
00:29:53,452 --> 00:29:56,120
Moscato. They go no,

484
00:29:57,540 --> 00:30:00,640
we were warned. You're funny. I said no, it's Moscato.

485
00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:05,052
He said, moscato. We

486
00:30:05,156 --> 00:30:08,460
were the number one producer of Moscato Sutter Home.

487
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,360
Moscato is 150,000 cases a year, you know, at

488
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,232
a 399 or less Average selling price.

489
00:30:16,416 --> 00:30:20,024
I said I know, but it's Moscato. They said well, how did,

490
00:30:20,112 --> 00:30:22,980
how did you come up with this? And I said here's my data.

491
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,096
And this, this was gleaned from over 26,000

492
00:30:27,248 --> 00:30:30,792
survey results and in UK in the

493
00:30:30,816 --> 00:30:34,568
US and hands on work that I, I've been doing

494
00:30:34,704 --> 00:30:38,552
with consumers and whatever white Zinfandel was finally

495
00:30:38,616 --> 00:30:42,464
starting to tick down a little bit. But I knew where, why

496
00:30:42,632 --> 00:30:46,336
and it was because consumers migrating the cocktails. And

497
00:30:46,408 --> 00:30:50,192
just after how many decades of being browbeat,

498
00:30:50,256 --> 00:30:53,792
oh, you're unsophisticated, immature, you

499
00:30:53,816 --> 00:30:57,020
know, blah blah, blah, it's only a fad, it'll never last.

500
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,320
And I said that's finally trailing now. I said the consumers are still there and

501
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,020
they love Moscato. And

502
00:31:06,450 --> 00:31:09,786
so they said no kidding. So I helped

503
00:31:09,818 --> 00:31:11,114
them to

504
00:31:11,202 --> 00:31:14,970
reformulate at a

505
00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:18,430
10% production reduction

506
00:31:19,170 --> 00:31:22,906
so reformulate the Moscato worked with Derek

507
00:31:22,938 --> 00:31:26,570
Hostein, who was our winemaker back then. We

508
00:31:26,610 --> 00:31:29,590
increased the sweetness and

509
00:31:30,610 --> 00:31:34,322
didn't touch the acidity. Oh. Because you. Oh, you got to have

510
00:31:34,346 --> 00:31:38,030
more acidity for it, which is one of the BS things of the industry.

511
00:31:38,410 --> 00:31:42,242
We repackaged it. Moscato's Italian. It's got

512
00:31:42,266 --> 00:31:45,070
this heritage. It

513
00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:49,714
is easy to say. And it's white, not sort of

514
00:31:49,722 --> 00:31:53,106
pinkish, which was embarrassing for the white Zinfandel

515
00:31:53,138 --> 00:31:56,786
drinkers. So we repositioned it, everything

516
00:31:56,858 --> 00:32:00,590
down to how they were going to redo it. And in seven years,

517
00:32:02,730 --> 00:32:06,290
Gallo and Sutter Home combined were

518
00:32:06,330 --> 00:32:09,810
10 million cases. Wow. At a

519
00:32:09,850 --> 00:32:13,666
25% increase in average selling price.

520
00:32:13,818 --> 00:32:17,650
And with Sutter home, a 10% reduction in

521
00:32:17,690 --> 00:32:20,930
cost. And their winemakers couldn't do

522
00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:24,578
that. They couldn't reformulate it because better was

523
00:32:24,634 --> 00:32:28,130
drier, better was more acidity, better was more.

524
00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:31,970
All the wrong things. And so

525
00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:35,410
by not understanding the market, we don't know

526
00:32:35,450 --> 00:32:38,706
how to market our product, we don't know how to market

527
00:32:38,778 --> 00:32:42,370
wine, we don't know how to market our products, we don't

528
00:32:42,450 --> 00:32:45,810
know how to educate because we're so busy with all

529
00:32:45,850 --> 00:32:49,538
this trivial BS and not.

530
00:32:49,674 --> 00:32:53,522
Not looking at the big picture in the global picture or a

531
00:32:53,546 --> 00:32:57,218
true unders. If you learn about the history of wine, you've got some

532
00:32:57,274 --> 00:33:01,122
cockamamie BS story about it that ends up, oh, the

533
00:33:01,146 --> 00:33:04,776
French always drank dry

534
00:33:04,808 --> 00:33:08,632
wines, and Americans drink dry wines because they like Coca Cola. And

535
00:33:08,656 --> 00:33:12,472
they don't know that typically a French champagne. There's a

536
00:33:12,496 --> 00:33:16,088
great article about French champagne found in the Baltic Sea,

537
00:33:16,184 --> 00:33:19,448
perfectly preserved from 19. From

538
00:33:19,504 --> 00:33:23,240
1870. It was 140 grams per liter, which is

539
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,032
30% sweeter than coca Cola. And that was.

540
00:33:27,216 --> 00:33:31,060
I mean, it wasn't that. Didn't Madame Clicot have a

541
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:34,324
sweet. As much sweeter version for one

542
00:33:34,492 --> 00:33:38,180
market than the other? Well, Russia. This

543
00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:41,956
is hysterical. Was 300 grams per liter. Yeah. The alcohol,

544
00:33:42,068 --> 00:33:45,812
they Sweet. Lava lamp. There

545
00:33:45,836 --> 00:33:49,080
was one bubble in this syrup and it just come blue.

546
00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:54,180
So. But here's. Here's. Here you are. I want to stop for a second.

547
00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:57,520
You're a master of wine. You study this. You study the

548
00:33:58,380 --> 00:34:02,092
effects of. Of. Of soil, of weather,

549
00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:05,724
of. Of the winemaker's history. All the things that go into what

550
00:34:05,812 --> 00:34:09,612
would be considered the aristocracy of wine. Right? I mean, all that stuff is part

551
00:34:09,636 --> 00:34:13,468
of your curriculum. And so. But then you're talking about

552
00:34:13,524 --> 00:34:17,132
consumerism and look, I want to throw into this success of

553
00:34:17,156 --> 00:34:20,812
Moscato. Look at Stella Rosa. I think it's A million cases a year. Oh yeah,

554
00:34:20,836 --> 00:34:24,284
absolutely. Are those two different things? Completely. The

555
00:34:24,372 --> 00:34:27,490
study of Bordeaux and Napa Valley and

556
00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:31,330
Burgundy and the monks and the 12th century monks and how they

557
00:34:31,370 --> 00:34:34,882
farm. Is that, is that fly in the face of what you just

558
00:34:34,906 --> 00:34:38,402
described as sitting down with Trinchero and Sutter home and

559
00:34:38,426 --> 00:34:42,146
creating a brand and that the consumer wanted.

560
00:34:42,258 --> 00:34:46,002
Had nothing to do with. So. So, so let me kind of, let me

561
00:34:46,026 --> 00:34:49,346
back up a little bit and. And again, this is going to be

562
00:34:49,498 --> 00:34:53,033
drawing you into my world. The difference between a Master

563
00:34:53,081 --> 00:34:56,905
Sommelier and a Master of Wine is a question very frequently

564
00:34:56,937 --> 00:35:00,169
asked. The Master Sommelier is the art and service of

565
00:35:00,209 --> 00:35:03,641
wine and extremely challenging and so

566
00:35:03,665 --> 00:35:07,109
forth. Most people don't even some people

567
00:35:07,969 --> 00:35:11,721
are actually aspiring and studying to become Masters of Wine. They

568
00:35:11,745 --> 00:35:15,241
don't even know what the institute is about.

569
00:35:15,425 --> 00:35:19,241
It is about the business and the science and

570
00:35:19,265 --> 00:35:22,790
the art of wine. Okay. But primarily about the

571
00:35:22,830 --> 00:35:26,550
business and the science. So they're asking questions

572
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:29,370
about how would you effectively

573
00:35:30,350 --> 00:35:33,610
control botrytis in vineyards

574
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:36,970
where you want it and where you don't.

575
00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:41,894
What measures would you take? And you've got to know

576
00:35:42,062 --> 00:35:45,862
what kind of procedures viticulturally should

577
00:35:45,886 --> 00:35:49,680
be adopted to. To go one

578
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:53,260
way or another. And the.

579
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,112
The syllabus for the Master of Wine exam starts it with the

580
00:35:58,136 --> 00:36:01,536
vineyard and it's finance and it's business

581
00:36:01,688 --> 00:36:04,620
and viticulture. It's also

582
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,856
phenology and production, but also logistics

583
00:36:09,888 --> 00:36:13,650
of production and technologies and so forth.

584
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,646
Then it goes into pre fermentation handling and treatment

585
00:36:17,678 --> 00:36:21,038
of wines through fermentation into

586
00:36:21,174 --> 00:36:24,670
quality assurance and quality control and

587
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:28,334
then goes into the business end of laws,

588
00:36:28,382 --> 00:36:32,170
regulations, distribution, global trade

589
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:35,490
and ends with consumer,

590
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:39,630
with the consumer marketing and sales and

591
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:43,472
connection and hot topics and stuff like that. So that's what

592
00:36:43,496 --> 00:36:47,312
the Master of Wine program is. And most people don't know that.

593
00:36:47,496 --> 00:36:51,104
I helped design the modern study

594
00:36:51,192 --> 00:36:55,020
course and educational programs. I was actually

595
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,800
on the board of the Institute. The Institute's going

596
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,464
the same route as this forced adoption

597
00:37:04,512 --> 00:37:08,282
of descriptive language. And a lot

598
00:37:08,306 --> 00:37:12,138
of the BS is now entering into the MW

599
00:37:12,234 --> 00:37:15,370
program because the people who are becoming

600
00:37:15,450 --> 00:37:18,550
MWs have grown up from

601
00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:23,082
the WSET the Court of Masters along Liaise. So the

602
00:37:23,106 --> 00:37:25,470
BS has become the dominant,

603
00:37:26,690 --> 00:37:29,750
almost the core, the dominant information

604
00:37:30,530 --> 00:37:33,830
that people are bringing in. Much

605
00:37:34,130 --> 00:37:37,482
to the my chagrin and the chagrin of many.

606
00:37:37,666 --> 00:37:41,322
So does so that's. So the question then remains certainly the difference.

607
00:37:41,386 --> 00:37:45,210
I think the listeners maybe have heard that before slightly different

608
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:49,110
the approach to this Master Psalms versus the Master of Wine and

609
00:37:50,450 --> 00:37:54,010
Master Psalm has a Lot to do with hospitality and more than just

610
00:37:54,050 --> 00:37:57,626
wine. But it seems to me that there are two parts. There's

611
00:37:57,658 --> 00:38:01,010
two parts of this industry. There is this romantic

612
00:38:04,070 --> 00:38:07,902
part of the business where we get to study the Burgundians

613
00:38:07,966 --> 00:38:11,214
and we can find out why. Well, I'm going to open a bottle of V

614
00:38:11,302 --> 00:38:14,014
tonight. Since you brought it up. I had taken it out last night, didn't drink

615
00:38:14,062 --> 00:38:17,530
it. And the, the differences between those

616
00:38:17,830 --> 00:38:21,582
pieces of ground and, and then the history of Bordeaux

617
00:38:21,726 --> 00:38:25,502
and then even Napa. Like for instance, let me just highlight it this

618
00:38:25,526 --> 00:38:29,358
way. When I spoke with Florence Cathiard, there's a 500

619
00:38:29,414 --> 00:38:32,606
year difference between Chateau Smith Lafitte and Napa

620
00:38:32,638 --> 00:38:36,302
Valley. But when you're talking about formulating

621
00:38:36,366 --> 00:38:40,062
wines for the consumer, I think wine's always been consumer driven. I

622
00:38:40,086 --> 00:38:43,774
mean, I see that, but is that in direct opposition

623
00:38:43,822 --> 00:38:47,454
to this idea where we're dissecting in our mouth and in our conversation

624
00:38:47,502 --> 00:38:51,172
at dinner time about Chateau Bailly and those kinds of things? Are

625
00:38:51,196 --> 00:38:54,916
they different things? Completely. Are they just sort of a Venn diagram?

626
00:38:54,948 --> 00:38:58,772
They intersect at some point and they're entirely different. I'm going to answer that

627
00:38:58,796 --> 00:39:02,532
question, then I'm going to go back to an

628
00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:05,620
earlier question. Okay. They can all

629
00:39:05,660 --> 00:39:09,140
coexist. I'm going to harp a lot for

630
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:12,596
sexual individualism. Yeah, you know, there's

631
00:39:12,628 --> 00:39:15,860
molecules you can smell that I can't. There

632
00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:19,166
are reactions you'll have to

633
00:39:19,238 --> 00:39:22,478
sensory things that I won't have and vice versa.

634
00:39:22,574 --> 00:39:26,062
Right. So perceptual individualism

635
00:39:26,126 --> 00:39:29,806
is, is one of the foundations of what I'm getting ready

636
00:39:29,838 --> 00:39:33,630
to actually launch. So this is, we're, we're launching my

637
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:37,502
new Life's End project on your show right now. Hey, how

638
00:39:37,526 --> 00:39:41,358
about that? Okay, so perceptual individual. The

639
00:39:41,414 --> 00:39:45,170
second thing is

640
00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:49,042
a complete revision of the whole wine and food mess. It,

641
00:39:49,146 --> 00:39:52,674
it drives people away from wine. It's based on

642
00:39:52,762 --> 00:39:56,482
a combination of BS and pseudoscience. All of

643
00:39:56,506 --> 00:40:00,150
it, all of it. Even red wine and red meat.

644
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:04,402
We'll say that if, for if, if we've got time later, it's not the

645
00:40:04,426 --> 00:40:08,162
protein and the fat, that frickin doesn't happen. It's a salt you put on the

646
00:40:08,186 --> 00:40:11,748
steak that creates the image that seems to.

647
00:40:11,804 --> 00:40:15,524
Salt suppresses bitterness. That's a primary role of salt. So we need to clean

648
00:40:15,572 --> 00:40:19,200
that mess up. The third thing we need to do is clean up information

649
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:23,076
people need to know. French always love sweet wines. And the sweet wine

650
00:40:23,108 --> 00:40:26,740
drinkers are often adult, mature,

651
00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:30,612
sophisticated, well educated consumers. But if they

652
00:40:30,636 --> 00:40:33,268
love sweet wine they're not going to drink it when they go out. And we've

653
00:40:33,284 --> 00:40:36,200
got data to show this and it's probably

654
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,688
easily as much as 40% of the

655
00:40:41,744 --> 00:40:45,272
total available global wine opportunity of

656
00:40:45,296 --> 00:40:48,136
sweet wines. And we mock and

657
00:40:48,208 --> 00:40:52,020
disenfranchise and what we're doing is

658
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,232
stupid, actually. It's so

659
00:40:56,256 --> 00:41:00,008
ridiculous. And we have no ability

660
00:41:00,104 --> 00:41:03,610
to determine then how to speak to somebody who likes sweet wine

661
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,430
or somebody who wants wine and food pairing or somebody who

662
00:41:07,470 --> 00:41:11,110
doesn't, somebody who loves red wine and chocolate and

663
00:41:11,150 --> 00:41:14,710
somebody who's part of the majority that thinks it's disgusting.

664
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:18,330
How do we do that? And that's the new piece

665
00:41:18,750 --> 00:41:22,150
that I'm adding to kind of the mix of what I'm doing right

666
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:25,930
now. And that's adaptive strategies.

667
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:30,290
Adaptive marketing means you market

668
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:34,302
to different consumer segments

669
00:41:34,366 --> 00:41:38,126
differently. You market a phone differently to somebody

670
00:41:38,158 --> 00:41:41,710
who needs it for business and international and that

671
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:44,970
needs connectivity and,

672
00:41:45,350 --> 00:41:49,102
and whatever. It's really different from how

673
00:41:49,126 --> 00:41:52,686
you market it to a millennial who wants

674
00:41:52,798 --> 00:41:56,030
to game on it, who wants to, you know, post

675
00:41:56,070 --> 00:41:59,662
funny videos and have it morph them into a cat

676
00:41:59,726 --> 00:42:03,290
or, or whatever. We have no, absolutely

677
00:42:03,370 --> 00:42:07,050
zero adaptive ability in the wine

678
00:42:07,130 --> 00:42:10,490
industry. So that when even the best

679
00:42:10,610 --> 00:42:14,314
intentioned wine expert can you recommend

680
00:42:14,362 --> 00:42:18,070
a wine that I'll like, People are

681
00:42:18,370 --> 00:42:21,946
more or less good at that, but

682
00:42:22,018 --> 00:42:25,530
they've not been taught how to say, okay, let's find your

683
00:42:25,570 --> 00:42:28,692
starting point. And for you it might be a

684
00:42:28,716 --> 00:42:32,468
Volnay and for somebody else, you know,

685
00:42:32,524 --> 00:42:36,372
how do we do that? We, we try to move them and cajole them

686
00:42:36,396 --> 00:42:40,164
and this is where it gets into the force technology of, of

687
00:42:40,252 --> 00:42:43,924
DOS computing. Does that make sense? Yes,

688
00:42:43,972 --> 00:42:47,652
I get it. So the, so here's a question. Is the assumption then, based on

689
00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:51,140
what you're saying, that every consumer, because this is what I

690
00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:54,352
gather from people that are providing lip service on the

691
00:42:54,376 --> 00:42:58,112
Internet, is every, is it assumed that every consumer

692
00:42:58,176 --> 00:43:01,984
that's out there drinking White Claw and ready to drink cocktails

693
00:43:02,112 --> 00:43:05,904
and whatever, you know, whatever packaging they prefer, Tetra packs,

694
00:43:05,952 --> 00:43:09,744
cans, whatever. Is every consumer a potential wine drinker? In

695
00:43:09,752 --> 00:43:13,552
other words, can fermented grape juice and a variety of things be okay? I

696
00:43:13,576 --> 00:43:17,344
agree with that. However, that brings up a great

697
00:43:17,432 --> 00:43:20,390
question. How do we

698
00:43:20,690 --> 00:43:22,790
segment the wine market?

699
00:43:24,130 --> 00:43:27,530
And when you get a chance at some

700
00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:31,290
point and for go to myvinotype

701
00:43:31,370 --> 00:43:35,114
M Y V I N O T Y P e dot

702
00:43:35,162 --> 00:43:38,858
com. Now there's all sorts of companies that have

703
00:43:38,994 --> 00:43:42,602
lifted parts of this, but it's questions about

704
00:43:42,706 --> 00:43:46,036
coffee, but not the questions of people who have,

705
00:43:46,138 --> 00:43:49,968
have kind of Lifted my. My concept from. It's not the same

706
00:43:50,024 --> 00:43:53,060
thing. It's got questions about salt.

707
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,168
You're aware of those. Those people who. The food

708
00:43:59,224 --> 00:44:02,672
comes out and they grab the salt shaker before they've even tasted the

709
00:44:02,696 --> 00:44:05,888
food. Yes. If we were actually smart, we would

710
00:44:05,944 --> 00:44:09,184
congratulate them because we could say with

711
00:44:09,272 --> 00:44:13,070
scientific validity. You know, I just learned that's the

712
00:44:13,110 --> 00:44:16,942
number one sign of having the most taste buds. And you are so

713
00:44:16,966 --> 00:44:20,750
highly sensitive to bitterness, you can't taste the food until the

714
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:24,462
salt suppresses that bitterness. And the role of

715
00:44:24,486 --> 00:44:27,650
salt and in flavor is just fascinating.

716
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:31,758
And. Waiter, could we get some more salt? My friend

717
00:44:31,814 --> 00:44:35,454
ran out. Oh. We took the salt off the table because the chef

718
00:44:35,502 --> 00:44:38,990
knows better. Oh, well, screw you. I'm not eating here

719
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:42,540
anymore, you arrogant, ignorant pieces of crap.

720
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:45,868
But that's an interesting thought, because if you think about how you know all this

721
00:44:45,924 --> 00:44:49,308
cuisine in the first restaurant in France and you know, and.

722
00:44:49,364 --> 00:44:53,148
And Medici coming from. From Italy,

723
00:44:53,324 --> 00:44:57,132
that probably salt in those days really was that put on the

724
00:44:57,156 --> 00:45:00,860
food, because who knows what they were eating and how old it was and whether

725
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:04,748
it was freshly caught or whatever. And it needed salt to cut. Well, it was

726
00:45:04,804 --> 00:45:07,460
salt. Salt was one of, you know,

727
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,232
Roman soldiers were paid insult. Yeah. Are

728
00:45:12,256 --> 00:45:15,736
you worth your salt? That's right. That's right. And.

729
00:45:15,888 --> 00:45:19,580
But again, this is what we're teaching

730
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,496
is, as you said, not only

731
00:45:23,568 --> 00:45:27,288
theoretical, it's. It's metaphorical

732
00:45:27,384 --> 00:45:30,968
bs. Mm. That makes sense.

733
00:45:31,064 --> 00:45:34,400
Having the heavy wine with the heavy meal. Yeah,

734
00:45:34,820 --> 00:45:38,640
I totally agree with you on all of that. Well, hang on. Wait.

735
00:45:40,980 --> 00:45:44,828
Take a. Take some Cabernet Sauvignon

736
00:45:44,924 --> 00:45:48,604
or Chateauneuf du Pop or Grange or Syrah,

737
00:45:48,652 --> 00:45:52,364
whatever. Gently pour some of the. The heavy

738
00:45:52,412 --> 00:45:55,484
red wine into the Moscato and it will

739
00:45:55,572 --> 00:45:58,892
clearly float. Wow. That's a specific

740
00:45:58,956 --> 00:46:02,420
gravity. As much of

741
00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:05,876
sugar is higher than of a dry wine. Right. And

742
00:46:05,948 --> 00:46:09,396
alcohol is lighter than sugar. And

743
00:46:09,468 --> 00:46:13,300
so heavy applied to wine is what's called a

744
00:46:13,340 --> 00:46:17,076
contranym. Just like we've talked about, terroir used to mean

745
00:46:17,228 --> 00:46:21,060
tastes like crap. Yeah. Right. So a contrary is

746
00:46:21,100 --> 00:46:24,660
when the usage of a word is the exact opposite

747
00:46:24,740 --> 00:46:28,402
of the definition of the word. We

748
00:46:28,426 --> 00:46:32,190
wonder why people are confused. So, all right,

749
00:46:35,450 --> 00:46:39,058
I've got to take you back to my nervous breakdown. Are you ready? So we're

750
00:46:39,074 --> 00:46:42,030
going back to. How did you get this way?

751
00:46:43,770 --> 00:46:47,538
So when I was 17, I discovered if. If I asked

752
00:46:47,594 --> 00:46:51,218
for a two syllable French burgundy

753
00:46:51,394 --> 00:46:54,660
in a liquor store in the 60s in

754
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:58,372
Miami, no one would card me. And so I could go

755
00:46:58,396 --> 00:47:02,148
into a store and Order and ask

756
00:47:02,204 --> 00:47:04,760
for a bottle of Volney, my dad's favorite

757
00:47:05,420 --> 00:47:08,948
Corton. My buddies and I went down to a

758
00:47:09,004 --> 00:47:12,852
711 to try and unsuccessfully buy beer. I

759
00:47:12,876 --> 00:47:16,100
took our last five dollar bill and I went over to

760
00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:19,748
Sunset Package store, which is a wine

761
00:47:19,844 --> 00:47:23,542
icon. You know, even back then

762
00:47:23,566 --> 00:47:27,350
they had one of the best wine selections in Miami. And we're talking about

763
00:47:27,470 --> 00:47:29,650
1969. I was 17,

764
00:47:31,390 --> 00:47:34,822
stand up as tall as I could. And I walk in the liquor store and

765
00:47:34,846 --> 00:47:38,534
a guy looks, looks up from his racing form. You can picture

766
00:47:38,582 --> 00:47:42,374
this, right? Can I help you? I said, yes, I'm looking for

767
00:47:42,382 --> 00:47:46,054
a nice bottle of Burgundy for dinner tonight. And he goes,

768
00:47:46,102 --> 00:47:49,814
yeah, what do you have in mind? I said, Corton. Oh,

769
00:47:49,862 --> 00:47:53,462
okay, those are over there. And I, I bought a bottle of

770
00:47:53,486 --> 00:47:57,174
jabolet bear share, 1964 Corton Grand

771
00:47:57,222 --> 00:48:00,982
Prix Burgundy. Gave him five bucks. He gave me

772
00:48:01,006 --> 00:48:04,614
a buck 50 back. Oh, come on. That's so funny. He said,

773
00:48:04,702 --> 00:48:08,262
come back again soon. I

774
00:48:08,286 --> 00:48:11,770
dropped out of college to go to work at Burn Steakhouse

775
00:48:12,590 --> 00:48:15,940
and, and working in the kitchen.

776
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,000
And my, my dad, I wish I had this

777
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,744
today. He had a, he had brought home a copy of Burns

778
00:48:23,792 --> 00:48:26,260
early list when it was 17 pages.

779
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,880
Wow. Back then. That's amazing. Back then, right? I've worked in

780
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,420
every aspect of this business.

781
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,088
I've nickeled and dined in retail

782
00:48:37,184 --> 00:48:40,818
for, for the lowest price on 3

783
00:48:40,874 --> 00:48:44,562
liter bottles of California Chablis and Rhine

784
00:48:44,626 --> 00:48:47,790
wine. I was in the rare wine business.

785
00:48:48,250 --> 00:48:51,602
I'm a chef. I research all this kind

786
00:48:51,626 --> 00:48:54,754
of, dang it, I'm ready to do the Master of Wine

787
00:48:54,802 --> 00:48:58,466
examination. So we go over in 1989. It's over

788
00:48:58,538 --> 00:49:02,210
for me. From the beginning. I've got, you know, it's four

789
00:49:02,250 --> 00:49:05,950
days long and I've never seen,

790
00:49:06,250 --> 00:49:10,034
you know, really what the test, what the topics or questions

791
00:49:10,082 --> 00:49:13,842
look like. The blind tasting process is totally

792
00:49:13,906 --> 00:49:17,714
foreign to me. And I become one of the most epic

793
00:49:17,762 --> 00:49:21,490
failures in the history of the examination. I go

794
00:49:21,530 --> 00:49:25,330
back, I was working at Behringer at the time. And I

795
00:49:25,370 --> 00:49:29,170
said to my administrative assistant, Teresa, I need

796
00:49:29,210 --> 00:49:33,042
a writing course. I need to, I can, I think I can pass this, but

797
00:49:33,066 --> 00:49:36,322
I've got to, yeah, change my

798
00:49:36,346 --> 00:49:40,082
brain. And so she researched it and

799
00:49:40,106 --> 00:49:43,794
gave me some options. I signed up for a writing course and

800
00:49:43,882 --> 00:49:47,730
I went to San Francisco and went to the wrong writing

801
00:49:47,810 --> 00:49:49,230
course for three days.

802
00:49:50,970 --> 00:49:54,658
So I go to the. Expect

803
00:49:54,714 --> 00:49:57,762
nothing else. Exactly. From an alcoholic,

804
00:49:57,826 --> 00:50:01,290
dyslexic, bipolar, whatever.

805
00:50:01,450 --> 00:50:05,242
So, so I, I'm at the registration table at like

806
00:50:05,266 --> 00:50:08,150
8:00 in the morning and There's a sign,

807
00:50:08,930 --> 00:50:12,730
clear technical writing for

808
00:50:12,770 --> 00:50:16,250
electrical engineers in critical thinking and

809
00:50:16,290 --> 00:50:20,074
disruptive innovation. And I look at it and

810
00:50:20,082 --> 00:50:23,722
go, what the hell is this? And they says, well yeah, this

811
00:50:23,746 --> 00:50:27,350
is the course. I said, where's this

812
00:50:27,390 --> 00:50:31,238
one? And she said, you idiot, that was last week

813
00:50:31,294 --> 00:50:34,630
in San Jose. Oh no. And I

814
00:50:34,670 --> 00:50:37,894
stayed. Oh well, good. And it

815
00:50:38,062 --> 00:50:41,814
changed my life. So that ended up being the electrical engineering

816
00:50:41,862 --> 00:50:45,094
one. Yeah. And critical

817
00:50:45,142 --> 00:50:48,694
thinking is not blurting out an answer

818
00:50:48,742 --> 00:50:51,650
before you've really thought about it and,

819
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,000
and listen to other people's ideas and opinions and

820
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,584
whatever and then look at the data of those other

821
00:50:59,672 --> 00:51:03,216
people and oh wow, there's a lot of ways you could

822
00:51:03,288 --> 00:51:06,800
think this because what you're doing with your

823
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,340
vineyards and your pruning and whatever in this situation

824
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,340
or given this

825
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,080
finance and economics kind

826
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,622
of area that you've choose in the play in

827
00:51:21,726 --> 00:51:25,318
or whatever. So critical thinking is the ability

828
00:51:25,414 --> 00:51:28,650
to not have endless

829
00:51:29,150 --> 00:51:32,870
pointless arguments, but actually to listen, look at

830
00:51:32,910 --> 00:51:36,390
data, collect new data if data is missing and

831
00:51:36,430 --> 00:51:40,262
rethink the problem. And we don't do that. The

832
00:51:40,286 --> 00:51:43,622
wine industry does not teach that. It's incapable of

833
00:51:43,646 --> 00:51:47,296
it. And that's why the pass rate of the master wine exam

834
00:51:47,328 --> 00:51:50,992
is still less than 8%. Wow. And this

835
00:51:51,016 --> 00:51:54,736
is people sometimes taking it four or five times and still never passing

836
00:51:54,768 --> 00:51:58,384
it. The other thing that they taught me is mind

837
00:51:58,472 --> 00:52:02,112
mapping. Mind mapping is an outlining

838
00:52:02,176 --> 00:52:05,660
process for people with dyslexia, add,

839
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,220
bipolar disorder. That works.

840
00:52:10,130 --> 00:52:13,914
And it's like, oh shit, I can organize my thoughts literally

841
00:52:13,962 --> 00:52:17,786
for the first time in my life. That's

842
00:52:17,818 --> 00:52:21,626
a phenomenal, you know, threshold across. Oh, it was,

843
00:52:21,698 --> 00:52:25,210
it was just mind blowing. I wonder why they don't prescribe something like

844
00:52:25,250 --> 00:52:28,378
that. Because it's not this, this

845
00:52:28,434 --> 00:52:32,106
myopia and narrow mindedness is not

846
00:52:32,178 --> 00:52:35,562
limited to the wine industry, of course, and

847
00:52:35,666 --> 00:52:39,510
certainly for a kid growing up and in

848
00:52:39,550 --> 00:52:43,222
second grade, they're starting to show you one plus one equals

849
00:52:43,286 --> 00:52:47,046
two. I was, I was gone because I'm

850
00:52:47,078 --> 00:52:50,710
not seeing them in that order and they're giving me

851
00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:54,502
the reading to do the book report. God, I

852
00:52:54,526 --> 00:52:57,930
would, I would fail classes and hide in the closet

853
00:52:58,590 --> 00:53:02,170
because I knew I was going to get punished because I'm so stupid

854
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,688
and, and etc. Etc. Now we've come a long,

855
00:53:06,744 --> 00:53:10,336
long way. We have a son. So gaming

856
00:53:10,368 --> 00:53:13,600
is, is, is an area of

857
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,340
great concern to a lot of parents. We had

858
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,376
our younger son, Landon, he's, he's now

859
00:53:21,528 --> 00:53:25,340
30, 29. He was,

860
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,790
we took him to the, to have his brain

861
00:53:29,870 --> 00:53:33,614
scran scanned for ADD by

862
00:53:33,622 --> 00:53:37,470
The Amen clinic. A very careful

863
00:53:37,550 --> 00:53:41,374
prescription of his ADD medication. He's

864
00:53:41,422 --> 00:53:45,182
one foot into autistic and basically Sheldon, from

865
00:53:45,206 --> 00:53:48,862
the big bang. Right. As soon as he got on the

866
00:53:48,886 --> 00:53:52,590
medication, he went from sitting on his hands every

867
00:53:52,630 --> 00:53:56,472
day, bringing home red cards three days a week for his bad behavior

868
00:53:56,646 --> 00:54:00,052
to absolute superstar. Wow.

869
00:54:00,196 --> 00:54:03,988
And gaming addicted. So the gaming industry knows

870
00:54:04,004 --> 00:54:07,604
how to neurologically trigger people. The wine industry is

871
00:54:07,692 --> 00:54:11,460
completely clueless about neuromarketing and any

872
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:15,108
of that. We're just so locked into our bs and

873
00:54:15,164 --> 00:54:18,884
so Landon, we set parameters

874
00:54:18,932 --> 00:54:22,484
around his gaming, but when he was seven, he was leading teams

875
00:54:22,532 --> 00:54:26,196
with 40 year old grown ups into

876
00:54:26,268 --> 00:54:29,924
battle on, you know what? Slaughtering

877
00:54:29,972 --> 00:54:33,332
people. He's now a senior engineer at

878
00:54:33,356 --> 00:54:36,932
Qualcomm. And what is he doing? Headphones

879
00:54:36,996 --> 00:54:40,612
on. Leading teams to completely rewrite

880
00:54:40,676 --> 00:54:42,720
procedures in product

881
00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:47,508
troubleshooting and whatever. How amazing. And

882
00:54:47,564 --> 00:54:51,292
on online, the teams are 42 year old

883
00:54:51,396 --> 00:54:54,940
fat guys in their mother's basement. They're engineers in

884
00:54:54,980 --> 00:54:58,600
India, in Japan and across the US

885
00:55:00,740 --> 00:55:04,076
and again, people can't. And now this is going on with

886
00:55:04,148 --> 00:55:07,644
aio. It's evil. I don't even want to hear about it. Well,

887
00:55:07,812 --> 00:55:11,596
if you hate it, shouldn't you really learn about it? I think it's. Well that's

888
00:55:11,628 --> 00:55:14,332
a, that's a good point. We're almost, we're actually out of time. But I do

889
00:55:14,356 --> 00:55:17,836
want to peel that back just a little bit more because you've

890
00:55:17,868 --> 00:55:21,308
exposed an interesting depth

891
00:55:21,404 --> 00:55:25,228
of lack of knowledge in the wine business. Not knowledge

892
00:55:25,244 --> 00:55:28,844
of wine, but knowledge of what to do in the industry, how to get to

893
00:55:28,852 --> 00:55:32,684
people what the consumerism is all about. There's a group called out on the Global,

894
00:55:32,772 --> 00:55:35,948
out of France. It's supposedly a think tank for

895
00:55:36,084 --> 00:55:39,756
wineries to get together and have these,

896
00:55:39,908 --> 00:55:43,732
I guess, brainstorming sessions about what's going on. But I've never heard the

897
00:55:43,756 --> 00:55:47,524
depth that you're talking about. No, nobody's doing, nobody's willing

898
00:55:47,572 --> 00:55:51,204
to do it. Yeah, and, and hell, I, I don't have

899
00:55:51,212 --> 00:55:55,040
anything to lose at this point. Plus I don't drink. And,

900
00:55:55,740 --> 00:55:59,080
and the, the industry really needs to wake up fast

901
00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:04,436
because the, the, the problem that we're

902
00:56:04,468 --> 00:56:08,308
seeing in our myopia here in the US it's way

903
00:56:08,364 --> 00:56:11,670
greater than that, way greater than anybody can imagine.

904
00:56:11,820 --> 00:56:15,506
So, so here's, and this is, it's such a different

905
00:56:15,578 --> 00:56:19,282
level that you're talking about because when I have conversations and I'm going to have

906
00:56:19,306 --> 00:56:22,946
a few this week, you know that I had one yesterday

907
00:56:22,978 --> 00:56:26,098
was very interesting from an Israeli guy who's got Some

908
00:56:26,154 --> 00:56:29,602
software and everybody's trying to address it with metrics. They're trying

909
00:56:29,626 --> 00:56:33,442
to social metrics and cost of acquisition and they're all driving

910
00:56:33,506 --> 00:56:37,230
their, their decision making by some kind of metric. And, and

911
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:41,132
I learned when I was selling wine that, that those

912
00:56:41,156 --> 00:56:44,796
metrics don't really tell you anything. I mean they don't really help you because they're,

913
00:56:44,828 --> 00:56:48,620
they're not actionable. You can't say, oh my, my

914
00:56:48,660 --> 00:56:52,492
conversion's down. Okay, well, so what, what do you

915
00:56:52,516 --> 00:56:55,900
do about your conversion? Well, you just test stuff that you think maybe is

916
00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:59,532
right. And what you're talking about is a layer of knowledge

917
00:56:59,596 --> 00:57:03,342
that may tell you what's right already. If you give it that, if

918
00:57:03,366 --> 00:57:06,830
you can dig that deep, but just managing your

919
00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:10,542
acquisition costs and your. And one ad versus another on

920
00:57:10,566 --> 00:57:14,014
Google Analytics, it's worthless. I mean all you do

921
00:57:14,022 --> 00:57:17,822
is not. Here's, here's. And here's the crazy part

922
00:57:17,846 --> 00:57:20,970
and here's what a lot of people don't get about my work.

923
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:24,370
It's not worthless. It's limited.

924
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:28,558
And again, adaptive strategies in

925
00:57:28,614 --> 00:57:32,222
marketing, I mean if you look up adaptive marketing,

926
00:57:32,286 --> 00:57:35,010
adaptive communications, adaptive

927
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:38,990
strategies, this is a big thing in a very

928
00:57:39,030 --> 00:57:42,286
high level in, in

929
00:57:42,358 --> 00:57:45,534
business and in marketing and in product development

930
00:57:45,702 --> 00:57:48,210
and in, and so forth.

931
00:57:49,110 --> 00:57:52,862
So people in the wine industry also want to

932
00:57:52,886 --> 00:57:56,670
protect. The information I taught is right. I'm right,

933
00:57:56,710 --> 00:58:00,402
you're wrong. Right. And this is one, one of

934
00:58:00,426 --> 00:58:03,922
my, my in, in my book why you like the

935
00:58:03,946 --> 00:58:07,042
wines you like. Have you ever read that or. No. I see it here in

936
00:58:07,066 --> 00:58:10,430
front of me though. Yeah, so. So

937
00:58:11,130 --> 00:58:14,230
there's there's this little meme

938
00:58:14,810 --> 00:58:18,562
of, of a letter 6 lying on the floor and

939
00:58:18,586 --> 00:58:22,322
there's some people standing looking at it so that it

940
00:58:22,346 --> 00:58:26,090
looks like a nine and somebody else looking at it,

941
00:58:26,130 --> 00:58:29,670
it looks like a six. And then I added

942
00:58:30,690 --> 00:58:34,314
to that the person looking at it this season

943
00:58:34,402 --> 00:58:37,786
six has a little cartoon bubble. What's wrong with

944
00:58:37,858 --> 00:58:41,402
me? Oh, that's interesting because we all agreed. This is a

945
00:58:41,426 --> 00:58:45,226
nine. You're wrong. Yeah, right. And we just don't

946
00:58:45,258 --> 00:58:47,630
get this. We are inflexible.

947
00:58:49,020 --> 00:58:51,972
The, the work that I started to do in perceptual

948
00:58:52,036 --> 00:58:55,828
sciences and, and so, so after

949
00:58:55,884 --> 00:58:59,492
I went spent my three days with the

950
00:58:59,516 --> 00:59:03,268
electrical engineers, my mind was

951
00:59:03,324 --> 00:59:06,980
blown. You realize that though

952
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:10,580
too as we. Become more expert

953
00:59:10,660 --> 00:59:12,080
in a given

954
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:18,050
start to speak what's called a focal vocabulary

955
00:59:19,590 --> 00:59:23,406
and often we'll think we're agreeing

956
00:59:23,438 --> 00:59:27,134
on things that we aren't because we're interpreting the words

957
00:59:27,182 --> 00:59:30,510
differently. Well, that happens every different

958
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:34,350
measurements. So you remember when the Hubble disaster. They got

959
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:38,094
it out there for $1 billion and it didn't. And got the fuzzy

960
00:59:38,142 --> 00:59:41,870
pictures. Yeah. When they were grinding the mirror, one group was

961
00:59:41,910 --> 00:59:45,442
working in. In metric and the other in standard

962
00:59:45,506 --> 00:59:49,090
measurement. Oh, oops. So they ground it to the. The

963
00:59:49,130 --> 00:59:51,070
precise 0.00

964
00:59:52,170 --> 00:59:55,906
inches, but it was supposed to be millimeters. Wow.

965
00:59:56,098 --> 00:59:59,362
And. And they didn't know that. Yeah. And this was

966
00:59:59,386 --> 01:00:02,850
again, the wine industry just talking past each

967
01:00:02,890 --> 01:00:06,482
other and whatever. So I got out of

968
01:00:06,586 --> 01:00:09,794
that. Declared the wine and food pairing

969
01:00:09,842 --> 01:00:13,580
guru. I finalized my

970
01:00:13,620 --> 01:00:15,480
divorce that year.

971
01:00:17,540 --> 01:00:21,340
You were busy. Shortly after, decided that

972
01:00:21,380 --> 01:00:24,844
the singer in the rock Motown band I played in

973
01:00:24,932 --> 01:00:28,252
was really hot and decided to marry

974
01:00:28,316 --> 01:00:31,932
her. Okay. That was a disaster waiting to

975
01:00:31,956 --> 01:00:35,660
happen. And so I. The then

976
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:39,400
the big decision was, I've got to quit drinking. Now, that

977
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:43,000
brings up a few issues. When you're the first master of wine. First

978
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,792
of two to become master of wine, you're the guru of wine and

979
01:00:46,816 --> 01:00:50,664
food pairing. I was now the director of international

980
01:00:50,832 --> 01:00:54,456
business development for what's now Treasury Wine Estates, Behringer

981
01:00:54,488 --> 01:00:58,184
Wine Estates, back then. And it was like, oh, now what am I going to

982
01:00:58,192 --> 01:01:01,720
do? And I decided, you know what? I am going to try

983
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,120
to reconcile all this

984
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:08,020
irreconcilable BS in the industry.

985
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:12,184
I am going to try to answer the question, why two

986
01:01:12,352 --> 01:01:15,848
masters of wine at the same moment, same

987
01:01:15,904 --> 01:01:19,352
glassware, same bottle. One thinks it's the best

988
01:01:19,456 --> 01:01:23,096
example in history of this wine, and another

989
01:01:23,168 --> 01:01:26,952
thinks it's commercially unacceptable. It's crap. And

990
01:01:26,976 --> 01:01:30,680
I've. I've been there when that's happened or when wine and

991
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,440
food pairing devolves into, oh, do this because of that

992
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,260
and do this because of that. I know it's not true. I know

993
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:40,920
that's not the history. I know that's not the science.

994
01:01:42,220 --> 01:01:45,636
So for 30 years, since my epiphany nervous

995
01:01:45,668 --> 01:01:49,364
breakdown, that's what I've been doing. And the wine

996
01:01:49,412 --> 01:01:53,252
industry doesn't want to hear it. And every now and then, people.

997
01:01:53,356 --> 01:01:56,996
I mean, I've got great chefs around the world who have literally changed

998
01:01:57,028 --> 01:01:59,560
their cooking. Jeremiah Tower

999
01:02:01,180 --> 01:02:04,520
changed how he finishes his dishes

1000
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,904
according to what I call flavor balancing. Oh,

1001
01:02:08,952 --> 01:02:12,584
well, the French would never do that. Oh, except for the chef

1002
01:02:12,632 --> 01:02:15,780
owner of Le Berjard, Le Lo's three Michelin star

1003
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,752
restaurant, who changed his cooking after spending a day

1004
01:02:19,776 --> 01:02:23,624
with me. And then people posture.

1005
01:02:23,752 --> 01:02:27,400
Well, as a taster, we've got masters of wine

1006
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,144
who do this in wine critics. Oh, I'm

1007
01:02:31,192 --> 01:02:34,870
an unbiased taster. I don't have Any biases? Well, I'm sorry, then

1008
01:02:34,910 --> 01:02:37,530
you're not human. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

1009
01:02:38,750 --> 01:02:42,246
And you don't recognize, you know, the basics of humanity.

1010
01:02:42,438 --> 01:02:45,494
I'm going to stop this here since we're already past an hour and I'm going

1011
01:02:45,502 --> 01:02:49,270
to say we're doing this again. I've got notes on my

1012
01:02:49,310 --> 01:02:52,342
page. I got two pages of notes that most of it not even asked the

1013
01:02:52,366 --> 01:02:55,654
question about. And then now you're into cuisine, which is one of my favorite

1014
01:02:55,702 --> 01:02:59,526
subjects, particularly American cuisine. And,

1015
01:02:59,598 --> 01:03:03,212
and the evolution of that and the 80s from. In America, in

1016
01:03:03,236 --> 01:03:06,652
California. You're going to like this because I am. I am a

1017
01:03:06,676 --> 01:03:10,492
historical classical trivialist and

1018
01:03:10,516 --> 01:03:14,204
I was actually a chef in a. In. For. For. In a Chinese

1019
01:03:14,252 --> 01:03:18,012
restaurant. Actually a group of Chinese restaurants. I can run a

1020
01:03:18,036 --> 01:03:21,520
three walk professional.

1021
01:03:22,420 --> 01:03:25,996
Perhaps my favorite thing to cook at home is Chinese

1022
01:03:26,028 --> 01:03:29,708
food. Yeah. Such an interesting conversation and so excited to continue

1023
01:03:29,764 --> 01:03:32,972
it later. Oh, great, Paul. So I just gave the

1024
01:03:32,996 --> 01:03:36,312
keynot presentation at the Missouri Wine Growers

1025
01:03:36,376 --> 01:03:40,072
Conference in Carbondale, Illinois. Before we get

1026
01:03:40,096 --> 01:03:42,980
out, did you have. Did you. Were you with Ester hold

1027
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,816
the guy that's trying to propagate American. They're not vitis

1028
01:03:47,848 --> 01:03:51,592
vinifera, but they're wine grapes from, you know, pre prohibition. And

1029
01:03:51,616 --> 01:03:55,368
he's in Kansas City. I forgot

1030
01:03:55,384 --> 01:03:59,128
his last name, but he's got like American. Yeah, he's in, he's right outside

1031
01:03:59,184 --> 01:04:02,730
of Kansas City airport. Oh, okay. No, I,

1032
01:04:02,850 --> 01:04:06,490
I'm not sure. Okay. I'm in my own kind of bubble and,

1033
01:04:06,530 --> 01:04:10,154
and, and I do work with people like that, but I can't recall

1034
01:04:10,202 --> 01:04:13,706
that specifically. It's a crazy story. Anyway, we'll leave it at that and we'll

1035
01:04:13,738 --> 01:04:17,450
reconvene. All right, my friend. Great to meet you, Paul. My

1036
01:04:17,490 --> 01:04:17,690
pleasure.