With His Insight And Enthusiasm, South African Wines Are On An Upward Trajectory. Meet Henrich Venter.

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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are in the studio today

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about to have a conversation with Heinrich Venter from South Africa. Wine

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talks course available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify. Wherever you hang out for

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podcasting, I need you to have a listen to a couple of shows. One, I

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want you to go back and find the episode with my father, Paul Callum

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Carrion Sr. I had a chance to sit down with him before he passed a

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couple of years ago to understand a, how he came up with this

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idea for just direct to consumer wine in America. And two, his sort of a

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career as an immigrant from Cairo, entrepreneur by

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trade, pharmacist. But the love of wine brought

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him to a wine shop, and this created the direct to consumer

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market in America, which is an amazing conversation as well.

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Since we're in South Africa today, I want you to hear Mae

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Elian Lancasong of Glenallie Winery in Cape

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Town. She was alive and watched the Nazis shoot

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up her parents chateau in Pichon Longueville in Bordeaux.

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And I didn't even ask any questions. She just started

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talking and had this amazing conversation about

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the history of wine and her history and why she ended up in South Africa,

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but not why we're here. Welcome to the show, Heinrich. Thank you, Paul.

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Appreciate it. You guys are on some kind of whirlwind american tour. What's going on?

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Yeah, we're visiting with our importer, Cape

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classics. We're visiting the west coast and

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doing a little bit of a road trip with some of the boys from South

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Africa, trying to get south african

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wines into a couple more glasses. Well, you know, I came

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out to the lobby and there's like a not barrage, but I met with five

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or six guys. You guys just having a grand old. Time, all looking like they're

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on a. Wine holiday, but a long haul to get

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here. 30 odd hours. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard to

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do. It is. The. The time adjustment. Adjustment is

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a bit so. So why. What's the point? Why you go through this

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headache? Oh, why not? Why not

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come? Okay. No,

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no, man. It's. I think the. The US

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market for south african wine has always been very

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exciting and, you know, for, for wine in

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general, global. The global wine market, there's so much

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influence here and we've.

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I don't know if people realize how long south african wine has actually been

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in the US. Well, by the way, your winery is. Can

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I. Can a cope. Cannon cop. Cannon cop.

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Sorry. Cannon Hill. Cannon cop. Yeah. Cannon

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Hills. Yes. Us, of course, is one of the most important

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wine markets in the world, of course,

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and has been cutting edge in many technologies and or just

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appellations and importation. It was kind of interesting. Cause you guys were

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talking about earlier that how New York, the east coast

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has generally more, way more imports wines than the

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south, southern California does. Yeah. I think also because

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you have so much local wine being produced. Yeah, for sure. On this

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side, it's a problem. Right now we're long.

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I mean, they're talking about pulling out 150,000 acres of vines in

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California. Is there a problem with production in South Africa?

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I think pulling might. It's not only

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California, it's really in every

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major wine producing country in the world. I think there

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are, you know, there are news articles coming out

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where people are, some are panicking, you know, others

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with the head on their shoulders or just saying, you know, the ship

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will, ship will get through the waters. But I think that's

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true. Yeah. I mean, why not? I think

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there will. Wine's not something that, you know,

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will be produced for 6000 years and then all of a sudden,

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you know, tomorrow. You stick the word. Right.

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I've been saying that forever. But I think the public needs to know, the listeners.

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It's an agricultural product, so you can't throttle back

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production like you can't a widget if you're overstocked or

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inventory's piled up. I mean, you kick it and you crush it. And if

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things change in the market, you have to do something. But

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also the interesting example about the widget

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things that are fads, that's true.

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Come and go. And if you put yourself in the same pool as a, you

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know, a fad and some fads

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become more, let's say medium to

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long term and then kind of fizzle some just flesh in

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the pan overnight. Did you guys have the pet rock in South Africa where the

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guy was selling rocks in a little box and people were giving him his gifts?

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I just opened a fridge down at a cafe and

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it was craft water. Yes. I didn't know that

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existed. Oh, I thought water was water. There are water psalms.

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Yeah, well that can get a water scene. Yeah, that one I haven't figured out,

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frankly. But let's talk about that for a second. The fad part of this. Cause

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that's an important part of my pet peeve or one of my pet peeves

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in this industry. You've got

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packaging fads, you've got style fads, you've got

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alcohol content fads. You have

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flavor profile fads. How do you weather that?

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I think a lot of,

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if you look at not only wine industry, but if you look at industries,

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the ones that, or the products or the brands or

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the companies that make it, or rather

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have longevity are the ones that, that show focus. And

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they know exactly what, where the company needs to

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be in 25 years from now, you know, so

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focus. And if you're in it

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for a quick buck or it becomes more of

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survival. Yeah. Rather than, you know, I know what I'm

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building towards. Right. That's a good point. That's a really good point. Because

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wine. Wine should be that.

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Exactly. Why? Why would you

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make a product that should actually be able to mature in a bottle for 25

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years, but you're in it for the cash?

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Well, yeah, of course. But short

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term goals. The reason I brought it up is

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where you're sitting now. I've had many, many entrepreneurs sit,

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and they've been mostly packaging entrepreneurs. And you

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just made me think of something. I've never had anybody sit here and say, yeah,

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I'm crafting this wine because I've seen this void in the marketplace. And I think

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we need a wine that is expressive of something.

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Let's just say, you know, of Napa Valley, as

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colloquial as that might sound. But they sit and they say, I think we

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needed a wine that comes in a self serve bottle, or I think we needed

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a wine that comes in a can. I think we needed a wine. And

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clearly the motivation for those kinds of products is I

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want to build it up, get as many placements as I can, sell it to

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a wholesaler, distributor and move on with my life. And that bothers

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me in wine. It doesn't bother me as a

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business. We all want to make money and be the person that made that product

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happen. But when it comes to wine, then. It'S not about the wine.

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Right. It's not what you actually then put into that

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vessel. Yes, that's the problem. It becomes about the

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vessel. And they always say, this is fine wine or

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gourmet wine or next tier wine in a

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different package. And I opened them and it's like they're not,

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they're fooling somebody. So are those kinds of trends in

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South Africa? Do we have, are we. It's a younger industry in general,

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right? More than 360 years?

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Well, in the long, long term. But let's say, you

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know, well, that's a good question. Is it new world or old world? Are we

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talking about wines that have been around forever and the technology I. Think it's

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a knowledge base. I think it's an old, new

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world, if that makes sense. Okay. You know, some.

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Well, the first vineyards in Australia came from

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South Africa. Oh, really? Yeah. I didn't know that. So,

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you know, we've. The south african industry is,

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I would say South Africa as brand South Africa. Maybe

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it's not the 300 odd year

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industry, but Napoleon drank south african

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wine. Really? I've never read that in a book. Vin de

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constance, the sweet wine, very famous sweet wine was

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Napoleon's table wine. Oh, wow. That's interesting.

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Yeah. So when you come to America, what do you hear?

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You're doing this, obviously, to make people aware. And this

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is, you know, this is a tough road to hoe in general, just because it's

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a hand sell almost. But what would you sit in front of a group of

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people? Like, don't you have an event tonight or something you're doing? Yeah, yeah, we've

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got a event with our local distributor. Okay, so you're gonna go to this

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event, you're gonna meet some people. What do they tell you? What's the number one

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comment they make? Well, I think it's

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not really comment, but I think if I could

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make another observation is that people are. People are asking

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questions. It's a thirst for knowledge about

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south african wine. So, you know, you get

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people who really, they want to delve deeper into what makes

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south african wine tick. What is it? That's the fiber,

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you know, and I think that's a very important

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mindset to have, really, is when you want to start

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exploring something that's maybe new to you in

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a lot of ways, you want to start asking more

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questions rather than have too much perception. That's

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true of what South Africa is or what it isn't.

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So what do you tell them? I'm going to come. Let's say I come tonight.

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What am I going to, what am I going to hear? What am I going

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to do? Well, I think you're going to taste some brilliant wines.

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That's a given.

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I think, as a. As a south african industry,

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the one big thing that I think

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we're all really on board with is that South

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Africa, that the wines coming out of South Africa really

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is of a world class.

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We, you know, we. We win

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international trophies that. That I

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think people know about. And in wine

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circles, people might say, oh, okay, great.

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But these are. It's just showing that the wines

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are on exactly the same stage as, you know, what

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you would think a good wine, in your

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mind, would be. I mean, I totally agree with that.

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And I stood where you guys were sitting earlier today

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for a total of 35 years every

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Tuesday and tasted from nine to two in the

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afternoon every day. If I wasn't, it was all by accident,

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really. But if I wasn't on vacation or sick that I was doing

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that, and it matched, it amassed to a lot of wine,

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but not that much South African. And I could. I count on one

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hand how many South Africans I featured in the club

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and. But I see some countries that ebbs and flows, like

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Australia. Sometimes it's

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everywhere, and then ten years later, it's only yellowtail. And then ten

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years after that is everywhere. And there's been a very volatile

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cycle, but South Africa has been a very steady

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cycle that from a volume standpoint, an awareness

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standpoint, or we're still getting our foundations

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built. Well, I think it's also a matter of access, right?

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We're quite far away. The whole world went through

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a couple of years now where the whole logistical

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system of the world has been impacted in a big way. It's a freaking

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wreck. It's terrible. And if that's not

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enough, if you don't have a virus

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shaking up the world, you've got a couple of wars going on. That was good

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for me, though. I sold a ton of wine there coming. But.

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So if you. If you had a good

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strategy, then I think you could have sold a lot of wines. We

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saw, you know, it was so bizarre during COVID because my,

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my sweet spot, we're going to talk about your wines here, was $15 to $20.

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I have all my wines for $15. I had a higher end clubs, but they

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weren't nearly as. The membership wasn't nearly as high as

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in my main club, which was $15.99, I think, bottle.

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And during COVID though, they were buying anything

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I put in front of them. So Austin Hope, which is a well known passive

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robles plan, which is $60 a bottle. So I sold 100 cases of it. During

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COVID I sold five bottles the month after

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Kamus camus one liter bottles, which

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was a restaurant only sale. Originally, I was selling

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for 140 a bottle, and I couldn't keep

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my 18 bottles a week in stock until

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they ran out of one liters. And then again, when Covid was over,

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I didn't sell any. I still have eight cases here, none because

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the concept changed. And so I wonder how that applies

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to the general scope of wine. You're the

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sales export manager, sales manager for the brand.

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We come to America and you hear these comments are

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they saying, where do I find this stuff? No one's ever told me about

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it. I go to the wine shop, they don't know what I'm talking

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about. Is that what you hear? I

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think sometimes you might run into

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difficulty when it comes to shelf space. For sure, for

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sure. Any retailer, and you can't blame them.

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00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:24,452
Any retailer, they have a certain amount of real estate

234
00:14:24,548 --> 00:14:28,284
and they want to make the real estate sweat. So. Well,

235
00:14:28,864 --> 00:14:32,524
you know, it needs to, it needs to work. And

236
00:14:33,024 --> 00:14:36,824
so they're gonna sell the wines that, that move

237
00:14:36,864 --> 00:14:40,640
off the shelf the quickest. Right. And I think it's just for

238
00:14:40,672 --> 00:14:44,004
us as South Africans, it's the matter of

239
00:14:45,224 --> 00:14:48,568
engaging and answering those questions that are being asked

240
00:14:48,696 --> 00:14:52,524
and being able to tell the stories, tell people about,

241
00:14:52,874 --> 00:14:56,258
you know, the, the winemaking philosophies,

242
00:14:56,386 --> 00:14:59,834
the terror that we have, you know, the, the

243
00:14:59,874 --> 00:15:03,522
climate. It's. I think we've got some of

244
00:15:03,538 --> 00:15:06,898
the most amazing terroir and sites in,

245
00:15:06,946 --> 00:15:10,746
in the western tip of the southern tip of Africa. The

246
00:15:10,770 --> 00:15:13,866
idea of coming has already been sold to me and I. Yeah, talk about may

247
00:15:13,890 --> 00:15:17,730
alian here soon, but just. Watch out for that 30 hours flight

248
00:15:17,762 --> 00:15:21,530
time. Yeah, that's a brutal. It's not me, I'll do it. It's

249
00:15:21,562 --> 00:15:24,602
my wife I gotta convince. And she hasn't listened to the show, so I can

250
00:15:24,618 --> 00:15:25,334
say that.

251
00:15:28,674 --> 00:15:32,242
Excuse me, do you have in South Africa,

252
00:15:32,338 --> 00:15:35,954
the segmentation of the

253
00:15:35,994 --> 00:15:39,562
marketplace where you have this consumer style wine, which is

254
00:15:39,698 --> 00:15:43,418
in America, is a slightly sweeter version of everything. So

255
00:15:43,546 --> 00:15:47,372
you go down the supermarket. If you go to a supermarket while you're here in

256
00:15:47,428 --> 00:15:50,892
Southern California, you'll see that whether you're in Ralph's vons or

257
00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:54,052
Safeway or Kroger, it's the same

258
00:15:54,108 --> 00:15:57,684
stuff. And it almost through the whole

259
00:15:57,724 --> 00:16:01,540
shelf of Cabernet. Is the style the same? It's the

260
00:16:01,572 --> 00:16:05,052
consumer style. Do you have a consumer style in South Africa? I

261
00:16:05,068 --> 00:16:08,228
think in certain product segments,

262
00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:12,018
yes, there is. For example,

263
00:16:12,196 --> 00:16:14,794
you know, if you start looking at, at

264
00:16:16,054 --> 00:16:19,822
sweet bagging box or you want to

265
00:16:19,958 --> 00:16:23,274
generalize with pearl a rose

266
00:16:24,614 --> 00:16:28,246
or, you know, things that. Are there some things like that, yeah, for

267
00:16:28,270 --> 00:16:31,918
sure. And I think those products definitely have a place in the market. Yeah,

268
00:16:31,966 --> 00:16:35,662
there. Those products generally draw people

269
00:16:35,718 --> 00:16:38,990
into the wine market. Yeah. And if it weren't for

270
00:16:39,022 --> 00:16:42,680
those, you know, it's, it's like with

271
00:16:42,872 --> 00:16:46,200
big whiskey brands, they've got you, you have

272
00:16:46,232 --> 00:16:49,712
the whiskey that, that gets appreciated, you

273
00:16:49,728 --> 00:16:53,336
know? Exactly. It's a good point. But, but they

274
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,200
need to have that, that one that is more affordable, that can just

275
00:16:57,232 --> 00:17:00,964
be grabbed, you know, without, you know, worrying about breaking the bank.

276
00:17:01,304 --> 00:17:04,684
But that is how you make people

277
00:17:05,104 --> 00:17:08,354
start to love the product and become

278
00:17:08,434 --> 00:17:11,746
a. If you ask them, what do you drink? You

279
00:17:11,770 --> 00:17:15,506
know, I'm a wine guy. That's what you

280
00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:18,854
want, right? Well, yeah, I guess you're right, because

281
00:17:19,634 --> 00:17:23,194
we were talking about this earlier with your other group

282
00:17:23,354 --> 00:17:27,178
when we were on Amazon for a long time, and I had thought,

283
00:17:27,306 --> 00:17:30,858
what a wonderful marketplace to go sell wine on, because

284
00:17:30,906 --> 00:17:34,634
it's billions of eyes, and we only sold

285
00:17:34,974 --> 00:17:38,726
the most well known brand in America, or one of them, which

286
00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:42,254
is called Stella Rosa, which is a sparkling moscato. It's sweet. It's like

287
00:17:42,294 --> 00:17:46,074
8% alcohol. Nothing. It's a huge brand.

288
00:17:46,814 --> 00:17:50,638
It's right here, Southern California. And so I

289
00:17:50,646 --> 00:17:54,358
thought, wow, that's interesting, because those people are just looking to

290
00:17:54,406 --> 00:17:57,446
buy something. They know they don't want to go down the market to go to

291
00:17:57,470 --> 00:18:01,006
target or something to buy a Moscato. So they just get online. They were paying

292
00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:04,162
me $2 more a bottle than they could buy it for locally. But it was

293
00:18:04,178 --> 00:18:07,834
just the convenience of it. Those people were not looking for

294
00:18:07,874 --> 00:18:11,594
something interesting to taste. No, they're not shopping at this point.

295
00:18:11,754 --> 00:18:15,290
So if you look at

296
00:18:15,402 --> 00:18:17,894
wine shelves in general,

297
00:18:20,274 --> 00:18:24,098
and this is something that I think is not only. It's not a problem

298
00:18:24,186 --> 00:18:27,650
in South Africa, only, it's perhaps much broader than

299
00:18:27,682 --> 00:18:30,888
that. But people get so

300
00:18:30,936 --> 00:18:33,404
intimidated when they stand in front of a shelf.

301
00:18:34,064 --> 00:18:37,896
Normally, you grab the first thing that you know

302
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,124
or that you've seen or that you've tasted with a mate, you know, and you.

303
00:18:42,144 --> 00:18:45,792
And you go to the tall, you know, what it

304
00:18:45,808 --> 00:18:48,684
tastes like. So I'm comfortable with it. Right. You know,

305
00:18:49,584 --> 00:18:52,552
and I think that's coming back to your earlier point. That's where a lot of

306
00:18:52,568 --> 00:18:56,366
people exploit the shell, the packaging, you know,

307
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,066
and we have a lot of labels out there, but how

308
00:19:00,090 --> 00:19:03,734
many wine brands do we actually have? That's true.

309
00:19:04,154 --> 00:19:07,690
I think somebody did do that. 85% of the wines you see at the market

310
00:19:07,842 --> 00:19:10,934
are sold from four companies.

311
00:19:11,274 --> 00:19:14,874
Constellation, treasury. Exactly. That kind of thing.

312
00:19:14,954 --> 00:19:18,130
Exactly. So, I mean, how do we combat that? I think you made a really

313
00:19:18,162 --> 00:19:21,330
good point. I think throughout the history of wine,

314
00:19:21,442 --> 00:19:25,074
contemporary wine in a contemporary world, there's been that

315
00:19:25,154 --> 00:19:28,576
entry level thing that we like to do. And in my dad's case was white

316
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,800
Zinfandel. That's 1974 Bob

317
00:19:31,832 --> 00:19:35,504
Trinchero. Now it's 19 crimes and Cali

318
00:19:35,544 --> 00:19:39,284
Red and Martha Stewart Chardonnay, those kinds of wines.

319
00:19:40,064 --> 00:19:43,440
And I think what's interesting to me is that eventually, the palate, they get tired

320
00:19:43,472 --> 00:19:46,124
of that. Yeah. And

321
00:19:47,104 --> 00:19:50,272
the question really is how to

322
00:19:50,328 --> 00:19:53,784
convert that

323
00:19:53,824 --> 00:19:56,880
initial. I almost want to say

324
00:19:56,952 --> 00:20:00,696
endorsed, you know, product, how

325
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,280
to convert that into somebody going to a wine

326
00:20:04,312 --> 00:20:07,048
rack and saying, oh, you know what? I want to try something new today. I

327
00:20:07,056 --> 00:20:10,872
want to explore a bit. I had this at

328
00:20:10,888 --> 00:20:13,804
a. It was my first experience of wine, because

329
00:20:14,424 --> 00:20:18,200
personality out there, you know, I read they endorsed it, or they own

330
00:20:18,232 --> 00:20:21,988
it, or they say, I must drink it. And that's a

331
00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:25,652
great way to get people. This is a life story. Happened to you, or he's

332
00:20:25,668 --> 00:20:29,436
talking. He's talking about this, the concept of this. Well, I mean, I

333
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:32,988
started. I'm gonna say this

334
00:20:33,156 --> 00:20:36,844
on a podcast. I started

335
00:20:36,964 --> 00:20:39,784
my wine drinking journey

336
00:20:40,884 --> 00:20:43,744
with sweet rose, and from there,

337
00:20:44,364 --> 00:20:48,164
went on to 1.5 liter bottles. Yes. Oh, well,

338
00:20:48,204 --> 00:20:51,476
yeah. Bang. For the pot there, it was more about

339
00:20:51,580 --> 00:20:55,010
volume. But. But then

340
00:20:55,162 --> 00:20:58,722
from there, when you get exposure

341
00:20:58,818 --> 00:21:02,458
to actually, you know, somebody telling you, listen, stop

342
00:21:02,506 --> 00:21:06,330
worrying about the price and the packaging and the other intrinsics,

343
00:21:06,402 --> 00:21:09,734
other stuff that. Just the fluff, really.

344
00:21:10,594 --> 00:21:14,434
How about starting to explore wine, even if it's at

345
00:21:14,474 --> 00:21:17,922
that entry level price point. Try something different. Try

346
00:21:17,978 --> 00:21:21,576
something and, you know, see whether you can

347
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,440
hone your. Your preference rather than sticking to one thing,

348
00:21:25,472 --> 00:21:29,256
getting bored and moving on. Yeah, that's what happened. Yeah. That's an interesting problem.

349
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,084
Yeah, you said it. You're. Since you're in the marketing side.

350
00:21:34,504 --> 00:21:38,216
If I get bored with Cali red, which easy to do,

351
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,480
I'm bored with some of the biggest brands in

352
00:21:41,512 --> 00:21:44,792
Napa. And so now I got to find something else. Well, somebody has to kind

353
00:21:44,808 --> 00:21:48,578
of tell me what it should be. The next

354
00:21:48,626 --> 00:21:51,378
step. And I used to have a wine buyer here, and when I had a

355
00:21:51,386 --> 00:21:55,106
wine shop, well, I thought had the best palate and best buyer in Southern

356
00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:58,682
California, because you could tell him what you usually drink, and he could take you

357
00:21:58,698 --> 00:22:01,442
to the next step in his head, and he would take you to the part

358
00:22:01,458 --> 00:22:05,226
of our store that had that wine, that next level of complexity, the next level

359
00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:08,810
of dryness to make the wine interesting. But that

360
00:22:08,882 --> 00:22:12,574
then works backwards to what you guys do. In other words, if I

361
00:22:12,614 --> 00:22:15,934
need to have a store owner or department

362
00:22:16,014 --> 00:22:19,494
manager show me my south african red because it's the next

363
00:22:19,534 --> 00:22:23,046
step, then that wine has to be the next step, which has to come from

364
00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:25,726
the vineyard for you guys. And you have to know what that next step is.

365
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:29,358
I mean, how do you. How do you keep your ear to the ground? I.

366
00:22:29,406 --> 00:22:33,174
Well, I think I. Getting back to

367
00:22:33,254 --> 00:22:36,034
what I said earlier for. For a

368
00:22:36,864 --> 00:22:40,324
wine estate like Canonkop, it has always been about the focus.

369
00:22:43,144 --> 00:22:46,952
If you fall around every five years

370
00:22:47,128 --> 00:22:50,896
and you change your style and you try and adapt to what

371
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,504
the market is doing, you're never going to have any consistency.

372
00:22:54,624 --> 00:22:57,976
So now you're going to find that

373
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,164
somebody is going to buy a wine, they're going to like it the one year,

374
00:23:01,584 --> 00:23:04,992
and now all of a sudden, next year, your style is completely different to what

375
00:23:05,008 --> 00:23:08,818
they liked. So where. Where are you

376
00:23:08,866 --> 00:23:12,706
actually keeping your consumers? Where are you

377
00:23:12,730 --> 00:23:16,434
building your brand equity? Yeah, so that's a really interesting

378
00:23:16,474 --> 00:23:20,306
point because I had a Bordeaux maker here, Lagrange, fourth

379
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:23,962
growth, and he works for their own by Suntory, you know,

380
00:23:23,978 --> 00:23:27,114
the big japanese company, but he's given complete

381
00:23:27,194 --> 00:23:30,666
autonomy to what he makes. He's not

382
00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:34,500
required to listen to the marketplace. He's required to make the

383
00:23:34,532 --> 00:23:38,140
best that he can make from what he's given the best meaning.

384
00:23:38,332 --> 00:23:41,980
I think most indicative of what that part of Bordeaux offers.

385
00:23:42,012 --> 00:23:45,860
Absolutely. What a refreshing attitude. Absolutely. And I suppose

386
00:23:45,892 --> 00:23:49,604
that consistency is what the consumer is going to finally land

387
00:23:49,644 --> 00:23:52,724
on. Yeah. Sounds very typical of

388
00:23:52,884 --> 00:23:56,588
the japanese style. Really. Yeah. Right. You know how many

389
00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:59,916
japanese companies have been in business

390
00:23:59,980 --> 00:24:03,748
for. Yeah, that's true. Right. But, you

391
00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:07,524
know, getting back to. To that mindset

392
00:24:07,564 --> 00:24:10,796
and that philosophy, I

393
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:14,740
think we are in a. In a time,

394
00:24:14,892 --> 00:24:18,676
a very interesting time where the whole. If the wine industry was a

395
00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:21,304
bag, the bags being shaken. Yeah. Right.

396
00:24:22,564 --> 00:24:26,318
And maybe some. Some things are going to fall out, you know, and

397
00:24:26,406 --> 00:24:29,606
it's. It's gonna. There are going to be opportunity, I think

398
00:24:29,790 --> 00:24:33,086
opportunities in the. In the industry as a

399
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:36,474
whole. But

400
00:24:37,534 --> 00:24:41,382
through consistency, you are going to avoid

401
00:24:41,438 --> 00:24:45,054
being, you know, one of those that are being shaken too

402
00:24:45,094 --> 00:24:47,874
hard. I agree with that

403
00:24:48,574 --> 00:24:52,354
because there's a lot of market forces against what you're doing.

404
00:24:57,114 --> 00:25:00,562
The term that's been going around the Internet, that bothers me the most, LinkedIn and

405
00:25:00,578 --> 00:25:04,266
all those services, is innovation. And I'm trying to

406
00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:07,650
think, what does innovation mean in the wine world? It's the same product it was

407
00:25:07,682 --> 00:25:11,506
6000 years ago. And we've refined the character, but it's

408
00:25:11,530 --> 00:25:15,346
always been about. There's two opposing arguments here, that it's always been

409
00:25:15,370 --> 00:25:19,106
about what the soil delivers to me and my representation of what

410
00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:22,866
that terroir was at the time, it was meaning that wine should

411
00:25:22,890 --> 00:25:26,240
be a sense of time and place. But then there's this other concept that the

412
00:25:26,272 --> 00:25:29,560
consumers have always driven. The need for

413
00:25:29,592 --> 00:25:33,296
wine. You go back to Vuv clicquot and she

414
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,764
made a russian version, and she made an english version.

415
00:25:36,704 --> 00:25:40,352
So we had to listen to the consumer sometime to sell stuff,

416
00:25:40,448 --> 00:25:44,112
of course. And then there's this philosophy that I read in a Burgundy book, an

417
00:25:44,128 --> 00:25:47,576
old Burgundy book, when they were appellating parts of Burgundy in the

418
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,436
thirties, it was 32 or 38 or something, and one of the winemaker

419
00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:54,636
said, well, we don't. We shouldn't. It should be part of our appellation that you

420
00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:58,492
cannot advertise. Because if I build a better product, there'll be the path

421
00:25:58,508 --> 00:26:02,220
to my door. It's like, of course, he was completely like, no, we're not doing

422
00:26:02,252 --> 00:26:05,184
that. Oh, no. Absolutely no. Absolutely no.

423
00:26:06,804 --> 00:26:10,580
Yeah. So how do you. It's a balancing act

424
00:26:10,612 --> 00:26:13,572
for you guys, because here you are on a tour of America, trying to get

425
00:26:13,588 --> 00:26:17,056
people to taste, but you're not gonna succumb

426
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,512
to the market forces of consumerism.

427
00:26:20,648 --> 00:26:24,168
No, no. I think if. If you start doing

428
00:26:24,216 --> 00:26:27,284
that, as I said, you are.

429
00:26:27,744 --> 00:26:31,512
You're really. You. You're

430
00:26:31,528 --> 00:26:34,960
kind of screaming for attention a bit. Yeah. You know,

431
00:26:35,112 --> 00:26:38,928
we're like, hey, I can also. You know, I

432
00:26:38,936 --> 00:26:42,688
can also do the whole innovation act or I can also

433
00:26:42,736 --> 00:26:46,356
do this, or. Whereas if you just show, listen, this is what we're

434
00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:50,212
doing, and we're doing it damn well, then, you

435
00:26:50,228 --> 00:26:53,076
know, there's. A lot of pride in the south african wines that I've sent so

436
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:56,704
far. Oh, well, I'm glad to hear that. It's not only me.

437
00:26:58,004 --> 00:27:01,464
Well, they're great. I mean, they're really good. And

438
00:27:02,924 --> 00:27:06,716
because I spent so much time tasting that, I wish there was

439
00:27:06,780 --> 00:27:10,588
a solution to turn a lot of people onto the south african

440
00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:14,174
brand quickly, and there just isn't.

441
00:27:14,294 --> 00:27:17,766
You're doing it now. That's. That's the way I

442
00:27:17,790 --> 00:27:20,994
think that we need to do it. You can't.

443
00:27:22,174 --> 00:27:25,234
You can't expect a lot of South Africans to

444
00:27:27,214 --> 00:27:30,794
get here. It is. Obviously, it's hard to get here.

445
00:27:31,974 --> 00:27:35,034
Being here is absolutely fantastic. I think

446
00:27:35,534 --> 00:27:39,190
the american public and the south african

447
00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:42,894
public, in a lot of ways are very similar. Very similar. Very,

448
00:27:42,934 --> 00:27:45,998
very similar. And we can. We can really

449
00:27:46,126 --> 00:27:49,950
relate with each other on a. On a very personal

450
00:27:50,022 --> 00:27:53,838
level. I think we've got a lot of the same interests. We've got a

451
00:27:53,846 --> 00:27:56,878
lot of the same tastes when it comes to not only

452
00:27:57,046 --> 00:28:00,874
wine, but food, sport, outdoors,

453
00:28:01,654 --> 00:28:05,348
you know, different facets of life that.

454
00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:08,544
That we both have in our respective countries.

455
00:28:09,044 --> 00:28:12,836
And that is so dear to our hearts. The thing for

456
00:28:12,860 --> 00:28:16,476
us is how do we share what we love with the

457
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:20,316
american public, you know? And we can honestly say we

458
00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:23,820
love being here. Yeah, right. Because we feel so at home. It's an

459
00:28:23,852 --> 00:28:26,708
interesting thought. I didn't put it that way, but there is a certain

460
00:28:26,796 --> 00:28:30,428
camaraderie that seems natural between Americans and South

461
00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:33,714
Africans. I just asked your

462
00:28:33,794 --> 00:28:37,226
compadres here if they knew Peter Koff. Koff. He's

463
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:40,906
a south african importer of wine here.

464
00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:44,122
He's semi retired now, but he's also a master of wine, one of the few

465
00:28:44,178 --> 00:28:47,738
south african master of wines. He did it a long time ago. He was a

466
00:28:47,746 --> 00:28:51,450
very good friend of mine, bought a lot of wine from early on. But

467
00:28:51,602 --> 00:28:54,082
I was calling him to find out how to get to Cape Town because I

468
00:28:54,098 --> 00:28:57,818
wanted to go see May alliance. I just chatted, but that same

469
00:28:57,866 --> 00:29:01,386
camaraderie turned around and he goes, by the way, since I have you on the

470
00:29:01,410 --> 00:29:05,154
phone, I'm having a very difficult time selling wine on the Internet right now.

471
00:29:05,314 --> 00:29:08,458
I said I'd be happy to take a look at it. And it's a very

472
00:29:08,506 --> 00:29:12,322
comfortable relationship, way more comfortable than what I would have with a

473
00:29:12,338 --> 00:29:15,946
Frenchman or an Italian, because it seems the

474
00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:19,418
outlook of life is similar. Very. Yeah. Isn't that

475
00:29:19,426 --> 00:29:22,454
interesting? Yeah, it's brilliant. And

476
00:29:23,594 --> 00:29:27,234
I think for us as South

477
00:29:27,274 --> 00:29:30,728
Africans, that

478
00:29:30,776 --> 00:29:34,484
particular facet of american life,

479
00:29:35,464 --> 00:29:39,004
because we can relate with it, we speak so easily

480
00:29:40,424 --> 00:29:44,040
about our wines and what is so

481
00:29:44,072 --> 00:29:47,604
special about the terroir, because those things are also

482
00:29:47,904 --> 00:29:51,244
what you guys give a lot of value to.

483
00:29:52,224 --> 00:29:55,684
So it's easy to understand when we

484
00:29:55,824 --> 00:29:59,268
actually start having that conversation. What are your biggest

485
00:29:59,316 --> 00:30:02,812
markets for your brand? Look, I

486
00:30:02,828 --> 00:30:06,172
think South Africa. South Africa,

487
00:30:06,308 --> 00:30:09,956
we're quite a well known brand in

488
00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:13,788
South Africa and internationally,

489
00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:17,464
we've done very well in the traditionally strong south african markets.

490
00:30:17,964 --> 00:30:21,636
The US is one of our top markets as

491
00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:25,386
well. Yeah. And generally, the

492
00:30:25,410 --> 00:30:29,154
european market has been very, very strong for South Africa because a lot of european

493
00:30:29,194 --> 00:30:32,682
tourists visit South Africa very often because it's on the

494
00:30:32,698 --> 00:30:36,474
same time zone. Well, may

495
00:30:36,514 --> 00:30:40,314
alliance, she's from Bordeaux. She started a winery at 70

496
00:30:40,394 --> 00:30:43,174
years old, which is fascinating to me.

497
00:30:44,914 --> 00:30:47,746
I hate to tell people how old I am, but that'd be five years from

498
00:30:47,770 --> 00:30:51,522
now, me saying, I want to start a winery, which I would never do. I

499
00:30:51,538 --> 00:30:54,450
would never do it because I've seen too many

500
00:30:54,602 --> 00:30:58,130
failures, too many people getting on the wrong reason

501
00:30:58,282 --> 00:31:02,082
or the amount of capital it takes just to even think about selling anything. And

502
00:31:02,098 --> 00:31:05,934
the time it takes to do that. How did. How did your winery get started?

503
00:31:06,754 --> 00:31:10,346
Well, we're. We're fourth generation. Say it again. Canon cop.

504
00:31:10,410 --> 00:31:14,042
Canon cop. And spell it for the listeners k. A

505
00:31:14,218 --> 00:31:17,562
n o n k o p. Okay.

506
00:31:17,618 --> 00:31:21,202
So we're. We're a fourth generation wine estate. Well,

507
00:31:21,298 --> 00:31:24,698
that's probably pretty old. Yeah. They're some very, very

508
00:31:24,746 --> 00:31:28,394
old wine estates in South Africa. Some. Some even 8th,

509
00:31:28,434 --> 00:31:31,614
9th generation. Wow. Yeah. And

510
00:31:32,154 --> 00:31:35,786
so, so we're. We've been well established. Last year,

511
00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:38,894
we. We did our 50th harvest.

512
00:31:40,304 --> 00:31:43,928
And the two, the two brothers that

513
00:31:44,056 --> 00:31:47,764
currently run the estate, they.

514
00:31:48,144 --> 00:31:51,360
They really have been at the forefront, I think,

515
00:31:51,512 --> 00:31:55,120
of quality

516
00:31:55,312 --> 00:31:58,204
red wines in South Africa

517
00:31:58,544 --> 00:32:02,392
for a long time, and specifically cabernet and

518
00:32:02,408 --> 00:32:05,968
pinotage. So we're. Again,

519
00:32:06,016 --> 00:32:09,806
I'm going to come back to that focus of the

520
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:13,462
two main varietals being Cabernet and

521
00:32:13,478 --> 00:32:16,854
pinotage. We do have a little bit of

522
00:32:17,014 --> 00:32:20,766
other port over it, the merlot, cap Frank and

523
00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:24,118
petty on the farm as well. But

524
00:32:24,206 --> 00:32:27,782
Cabernet and pinotage are our main

525
00:32:27,838 --> 00:32:30,982
focus points. So generational. It's interesting point.

526
00:32:31,118 --> 00:32:33,924
European generations are normal,

527
00:32:34,784 --> 00:32:38,084
even with restaurants in France particularly.

528
00:32:38,904 --> 00:32:42,672
They get handed down, they get managed again. The next generation, America, is

529
00:32:42,688 --> 00:32:46,456
not like that. My wife, cousin has a restaurant 30 years.

530
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,048
That's like an anomaly. And he has no heirs, so that's never going to.

531
00:32:50,216 --> 00:32:53,872
There's no generations there, is it just generations in the

532
00:32:53,888 --> 00:32:56,672
wine and food business in South Africa a normal thing, or. Is it sort of

533
00:32:56,688 --> 00:32:59,914
a. Yeah, absolutely. I think

534
00:33:00,494 --> 00:33:03,590
a lot of times when

535
00:33:03,782 --> 00:33:07,118
obviously, your

536
00:33:07,206 --> 00:33:10,454
agricultural land will. When it changes hands, it is

537
00:33:10,494 --> 00:33:13,994
from generation to generation.

538
00:33:14,574 --> 00:33:18,390
Sometimes economic conditions makes that

539
00:33:18,462 --> 00:33:20,954
hard. And also,

540
00:33:23,414 --> 00:33:27,244
it's something special. It's something you kind of want to hold onto every time

541
00:33:27,284 --> 00:33:30,944
you see a generation. Kind of.

542
00:33:31,484 --> 00:33:34,764
Or, you know, the family, the old

543
00:33:34,804 --> 00:33:38,184
family, you know, leave a piece of land,

544
00:33:38,884 --> 00:33:42,424
there is this kind of, you know, oh, man, that's brutal.

545
00:33:43,124 --> 00:33:46,612
You know, it's no. This picture behind you. My father in 1975, and

546
00:33:46,628 --> 00:33:50,316
I. Oh, brilliant. I had no business. I had no idea. You were a handsome

547
00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:50,904
mess.

548
00:33:54,404 --> 00:33:57,856
Yeah, thank you. No, the idea

549
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,744
then. I had no business. I had no idea I was gonna do this. I

550
00:34:00,744 --> 00:34:03,152
was just working for him at the time. And in 88, he came to me,

551
00:34:03,168 --> 00:34:06,984
says, I'm gonna sell to a south african company, actually, the south african wine of

552
00:34:06,984 --> 00:34:10,592
the month, which is still around, I think. Yes. So they had made him an

553
00:34:10,608 --> 00:34:13,136
offer and he said, why don't you come check it out and see? Okay. That's

554
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,952
not the point. That was business. Right? So

555
00:34:17,008 --> 00:34:20,016
businesses are a little different here.

556
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,608
Generationally, you have land and you have a stewardship of that

557
00:34:23,656 --> 00:34:27,004
land that probably has a little more poignancy to

558
00:34:27,464 --> 00:34:31,312
handing it to the next generation. When I was done with this march

559
00:34:31,368 --> 00:34:34,960
of last year, my wife and I were like, we would never wish

560
00:34:35,112 --> 00:34:38,284
our business currently at the time, on our kids.

561
00:34:38,784 --> 00:34:42,616
We wouldn't want them to have the headwinds that we were about to get

562
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,784
into, because it was very difficult here on the Internet,

563
00:34:45,864 --> 00:34:49,712
etcetera. So it was a foregone conclusion we were going to

564
00:34:49,728 --> 00:34:52,656
have one of the kids. I had one child that probably wouldn't be very good

565
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,554
at it, and her husband as well. But

566
00:34:56,174 --> 00:34:59,574
we saw nothing but headwinds. There was nothing

567
00:34:59,654 --> 00:35:03,470
of ethereal value to hand somebody. It was just

568
00:35:03,542 --> 00:35:07,102
business. And here you are with land

569
00:35:07,278 --> 00:35:10,950
Vines philosophy. Right? There's a philosophy

570
00:35:10,982 --> 00:35:14,542
behind all that that makes it attractive. So I

571
00:35:14,558 --> 00:35:18,398
would, you know, and coming back to your earlier

572
00:35:18,446 --> 00:35:22,094
point about starting a winery at a certain age, at 70,

573
00:35:22,214 --> 00:35:25,470
um, I thank you. No, I would. I would ask, what is your

574
00:35:25,502 --> 00:35:28,886
why? What is your why? What's your reason? Yes.

575
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:32,774
So do. You wouldn't do that? Sorry. Why? I wouldn't

576
00:35:32,814 --> 00:35:36,070
do that. No. Or why would you do that? Why would you. What, what is,

577
00:35:36,182 --> 00:35:39,634
what is the. Is it, is it because

578
00:35:40,174 --> 00:35:43,870
you are missing something? Is it because you, you want

579
00:35:43,902 --> 00:35:47,670
to start something exciting? Is it about, you know, you want to have a place

580
00:35:47,702 --> 00:35:51,206
where you can sit and watch your grapes grow? Yeah. Is

581
00:35:51,230 --> 00:35:55,064
it, what is the why? And in terms

582
00:35:55,104 --> 00:35:58,896
of handing from one generation, taking

583
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,808
over from the next one, is your

584
00:36:02,856 --> 00:36:06,448
why? True? Is it genuine?

585
00:36:06,536 --> 00:36:10,280
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think that if I think

586
00:36:10,312 --> 00:36:14,120
a younger man or couple or woman going into Napa

587
00:36:14,152 --> 00:36:17,616
Valley and having their first love of the

588
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,490
vine and seeing the lifestyle, that is a different motivation than somebody

589
00:36:21,522 --> 00:36:24,494
who's 70, who's been in it for all her life

590
00:36:25,194 --> 00:36:28,466
and for her, clearly, and I think she says this in the

591
00:36:28,490 --> 00:36:31,974
podcast, it is, she fell in love with south Africa

592
00:36:32,674 --> 00:36:35,734
and she saw what, you know, that what

593
00:36:36,834 --> 00:36:40,554
I say, damage. It'd be american colloquialism, what damage she could do, but

594
00:36:40,714 --> 00:36:44,346
what love she could bring to the land to

595
00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:47,504
produce something special again. Yeah. Having come from

596
00:36:47,544 --> 00:36:51,232
Bordeaux, you know, have. You been to Glenelg? No. And

597
00:36:51,248 --> 00:36:54,432
I, this is one of my. I was trying to convince my wife last to

598
00:36:54,448 --> 00:36:58,104
do it this quarter, but that's not happening.

599
00:36:58,144 --> 00:37:01,944
But we need to go. Yeah. And we're gonna be in the east

600
00:37:01,984 --> 00:37:05,808
coast, we're gonna be in Paris in May. And

601
00:37:05,816 --> 00:37:08,872
I was trying to figure out a way without her knowing. Again, she doesn't listen

602
00:37:08,888 --> 00:37:12,612
to the show, so she'll never hear me say this, like, how can I

603
00:37:12,628 --> 00:37:14,836
just trick her into saying, okay, we're gonna jump on a plane and go home,

604
00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:18,596
but we actually go to South Africa. She realizes once she

605
00:37:18,660 --> 00:37:22,252
sees the chicken, you know? Yeah, right. Well, what are you doing? Why are we

606
00:37:22,268 --> 00:37:26,044
going to Stellenbosch? Well, only because this

607
00:37:26,084 --> 00:37:29,692
connection with Maya Leon, and I don't think I told you, I was

608
00:37:29,708 --> 00:37:33,372
telling your friends. We went to Vin Expo in

609
00:37:33,388 --> 00:37:37,028
1993, and we went across the street. We were staying across the street at

610
00:37:37,036 --> 00:37:39,944
Pechete Belgravia to have dinner with her,

611
00:37:40,444 --> 00:37:44,180
Monsieur Henri Vandervoort and my wife and

612
00:37:44,212 --> 00:37:47,508
I and my dad and my mom. And we walk across street, and here's this

613
00:37:47,556 --> 00:37:50,892
elegant woman in her sixties with a. With a white eyelet dress. And we had

614
00:37:50,908 --> 00:37:54,636
this amazing dinner with her. And I

615
00:37:54,660 --> 00:37:58,276
didn't know it was her. I didn't know. I was just. What did I know?

616
00:37:58,340 --> 00:38:02,180
Yeah. And I didn't realize it until I

617
00:38:02,212 --> 00:38:04,784
had her grandson sitting here

618
00:38:06,484 --> 00:38:10,028
for the podcast. He runs a winery in Spain.

619
00:38:10,196 --> 00:38:13,692
And I said, wait a minute, your grandmother is May Aleana? You're right. I

620
00:38:13,708 --> 00:38:16,984
said, was she.

621
00:38:17,364 --> 00:38:20,652
Was she in Bordeaux in the night? Yeah. I said, oh, my God. I go,

622
00:38:20,668 --> 00:38:21,984
I had dinner with her.

623
00:38:24,324 --> 00:38:27,980
But there's the amount of passion to be

624
00:38:28,012 --> 00:38:31,470
70 years old and start from scratch.

625
00:38:31,612 --> 00:38:35,410
Wine keeps you young. Yeah, but it's an amazing

626
00:38:35,442 --> 00:38:38,762
thing. You just said that, too. At the end of the conversation, which was like

627
00:38:38,778 --> 00:38:42,410
an hour and 20 minutes, we were talking about the special,

628
00:38:42,562 --> 00:38:46,214
how special wine is. And she goes, look what it did for us.

629
00:38:46,874 --> 00:38:50,266
We're friends 30 years later. And I went,

630
00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:53,374
wow, what other beverage can do that?

631
00:38:53,954 --> 00:38:57,294
Well, I think, you know,

632
00:38:57,894 --> 00:39:01,454
that that is exactly the point. Yeah. Is the fact

633
00:39:01,494 --> 00:39:05,074
that we can. We. I mean, me and you, we can sit here

634
00:39:05,414 --> 00:39:09,166
and talk about wine probably for hours. Right. And, you

635
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:12,918
know, we don't have any, but, yeah, I

636
00:39:12,966 --> 00:39:16,654
actually do, too. I do it for a reason, because they go downhill very

637
00:39:16,694 --> 00:39:20,214
fast. Corks start flying. Yeah.

638
00:39:20,254 --> 00:39:23,854
Right. So I. And that is

639
00:39:23,894 --> 00:39:27,310
exactly the. The beauty about

640
00:39:27,462 --> 00:39:30,594
wine and what I would

641
00:39:30,894 --> 00:39:34,446
love for more people to be able to experience is

642
00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:38,234
the fact that you can sit, and not only

643
00:39:38,654 --> 00:39:41,238
when you have a bottle of wine, obviously, there are the occasions we have a

644
00:39:41,246 --> 00:39:44,590
bottle of wine, and it's about the wine. Right. But the

645
00:39:44,622 --> 00:39:48,310
wine is probably, for me, the

646
00:39:48,422 --> 00:39:51,698
most enticing

647
00:39:51,786 --> 00:39:55,450
accompaniment to conversation and food

648
00:39:55,522 --> 00:39:58,930
and sharing moments. It's like, why is

649
00:39:58,962 --> 00:40:02,626
that? You don't have. There's no answer to this question.

650
00:40:02,770 --> 00:40:06,330
Yeah. I've asked it of everybody rhetorically.

651
00:40:06,442 --> 00:40:10,234
Yeah. And is it because it's so

652
00:40:10,274 --> 00:40:13,666
soulful, because it's deep in the soil.

653
00:40:13,850 --> 00:40:17,370
But why do grapes represent the soil better than peaches and

654
00:40:17,482 --> 00:40:20,844
apricots? Like, we don't know the answer to that question.

655
00:40:21,184 --> 00:40:24,604
We don't sit around the table after, you know, guava nectar,

656
00:40:25,344 --> 00:40:29,120
you know, or strawberry wine. Maybe that's the

657
00:40:29,152 --> 00:40:32,576
next bad. But you don't.

658
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,000
Yeah, you don't do it with a glass of whiskey. I mean,

659
00:40:36,152 --> 00:40:39,720
whiskey aficionados will sit around and talk about the character of whiskey, but

660
00:40:39,832 --> 00:40:43,656
not like wine. And I'm not talking about, like, this smells like cedar and

661
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,696
blueberries and BlackBerry. I'm talking about that. I'm just talking about the

662
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,400
expression brings to the table. I think,

663
00:40:50,552 --> 00:40:53,244
obviously, you know, wine is

664
00:40:54,344 --> 00:40:58,096
one of the oldest beverages. You know, if we just look

665
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,816
at it as a beverage, one of the oldest, you know, in the.

666
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,600
In the book that's been made for

667
00:41:05,752 --> 00:41:09,432
thousands of years. But I think it's

668
00:41:09,488 --> 00:41:12,860
also one of the only, if not the only one

669
00:41:13,032 --> 00:41:16,788
that is really produced by Mother Nature

670
00:41:16,876 --> 00:41:20,668
instead of by man. Mm hmm. That's a good point. And

671
00:41:20,716 --> 00:41:24,300
that is why terroir is such a huge

672
00:41:24,492 --> 00:41:28,064
part of wine. And,

673
00:41:28,604 --> 00:41:32,124
you know, coming back again, when you

674
00:41:32,164 --> 00:41:34,584
start talking about the

675
00:41:35,604 --> 00:41:39,158
packaging and all the things that. That I can do when

676
00:41:39,206 --> 00:41:42,894
what, you know, me, the guy

677
00:41:42,974 --> 00:41:46,646
who decides what cork to use or what label to use or what

678
00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:50,446
bottle, really, I didn't. I'm

679
00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:52,714
not making that product. Yeah, right.

680
00:41:54,654 --> 00:41:58,142
Me and the winemaker, we need to do as little as possible. Yeah, right. That's.

681
00:41:58,238 --> 00:42:01,966
You're right. Nature is much more powerful than

682
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:05,830
we are. Just get out of the way. Exactly. Just do what you

683
00:42:05,862 --> 00:42:09,572
need to do in the seller. Right. Is

684
00:42:09,588 --> 00:42:12,144
there any, at Cannonkop, is there any

685
00:42:12,724 --> 00:42:16,460
conversation of alternate packaging? I think,

686
00:42:16,492 --> 00:42:20,148
and I had this conversation earlier, the sustainability, I think, is, of all the industries,

687
00:42:20,196 --> 00:42:23,624
of all the world, that sustainability is probably the most appropriate

688
00:42:23,924 --> 00:42:27,744
in the wine trade. I think it's more accessible that way. But

689
00:42:28,724 --> 00:42:32,572
what movements are you guys remaining

690
00:42:32,628 --> 00:42:36,400
focused, which I think is a very important thing. And in

691
00:42:36,432 --> 00:42:40,124
lieu of that variety,

692
00:42:40,584 --> 00:42:43,888
stylistically, packaging, any movement

693
00:42:43,936 --> 00:42:47,484
coming from you guys? For us, I think

694
00:42:50,624 --> 00:42:54,472
if we talk sustainability, for example, there

695
00:42:54,488 --> 00:42:58,336
are many different types of sustainability. Some people see

696
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,504
it as you need to go organic. Some people

697
00:43:01,964 --> 00:43:04,104
focus on financial sustainability.

698
00:43:06,324 --> 00:43:08,144
It's probably a very important one.

699
00:43:10,644 --> 00:43:14,428
How do you define sustainability and what will be

700
00:43:14,476 --> 00:43:18,164
sustainable for us over the next 50 to 100

701
00:43:18,204 --> 00:43:21,984
years? And for Canon Corp,

702
00:43:23,364 --> 00:43:25,904
we need to sustain the.

703
00:43:26,464 --> 00:43:29,640
The wine philosophy at

704
00:43:29,712 --> 00:43:33,432
Kanonko. Well, that's a really interesting thought, and. A lot

705
00:43:33,448 --> 00:43:37,224
of times in different industries, and it

706
00:43:37,264 --> 00:43:40,084
happens in business, I think every day

707
00:43:41,624 --> 00:43:45,264
when it starts becoming again about the

708
00:43:45,424 --> 00:43:47,164
people rather than

709
00:43:49,144 --> 00:43:52,004
the philosophy behind the product that you are making,

710
00:43:52,424 --> 00:43:56,024
then you have the opinions

711
00:43:56,104 --> 00:43:59,928
coming in, and this is what I want to do, and this is

712
00:44:00,016 --> 00:44:03,672
my way of thinking. And at the end of the day, you

713
00:44:03,688 --> 00:44:07,144
don't buy into the bigger picture. Right. Essentially thought.

714
00:44:07,264 --> 00:44:10,324
And for Canon Cop,

715
00:44:10,864 --> 00:44:14,184
or at Canon Cop, rather, everybody buys

716
00:44:14,224 --> 00:44:17,284
into the philosophy, and that's very important for us.

717
00:44:18,384 --> 00:44:21,736
I think you have the advantage because it's generational change. In other

718
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,168
words, that philosophy trickles down naturally.

719
00:44:25,336 --> 00:44:28,864
Plus, you stay focused. And so the thing that

720
00:44:28,904 --> 00:44:32,728
doesn't waver is the wine. And people

721
00:44:32,776 --> 00:44:36,284
come and go as long as they get the same. That's the stewardess.

722
00:44:36,584 --> 00:44:40,368
That's the concept of stewardship to the land and the value of

723
00:44:40,376 --> 00:44:43,804
the grape and not the marketplace. Yeah. So,

724
00:44:44,144 --> 00:44:47,800
for example, Canonko has only

725
00:44:47,872 --> 00:44:51,596
ever had three winemakers. Wow.

726
00:44:51,740 --> 00:44:55,584
Yeah. In a 50 year span. That's amazing. So

727
00:44:56,084 --> 00:44:59,580
the. The winemakers have really. And they're all still

728
00:44:59,612 --> 00:45:03,044
alive. And the. The wine

729
00:45:03,084 --> 00:45:06,772
quality. And today's winemaker, Aubrey Bierslauer, he

730
00:45:06,788 --> 00:45:10,424
would tell you that a lot of

731
00:45:10,764 --> 00:45:14,436
the terroir and the. The grapes

732
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:18,256
that he's getting into the cellar. The groundwork was laid by our

733
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,960
first winemaker, Jan Boland Kutzir, who

734
00:45:22,112 --> 00:45:25,364
prepared the vineyards in the correct way.

735
00:45:25,944 --> 00:45:29,336
And, you know, after him was Bayer

736
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,392
Streeter, who was. Today he's known as the prince of

737
00:45:32,408 --> 00:45:36,016
Pinotage. And then

738
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,816
Arbery came, and the philosophy stayed

739
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,692
exactly the same from day one until

740
00:45:43,748 --> 00:45:47,260
where we are now. I've always. I've always asked that question of wine makers

741
00:45:47,292 --> 00:45:50,644
when they've been handed off by. Let's just talk

742
00:45:50,684 --> 00:45:54,492
about Frederick Bernier. He's a Louis Jadot right now. And he

743
00:45:54,508 --> 00:45:58,260
was handed it to by. I can't remember the name, but he was the guru

744
00:45:58,292 --> 00:46:02,140
of Burgundy forever. And I always wondered for a young winemaker to come in and

745
00:46:02,172 --> 00:46:05,944
be handed that responsibility to carry on this tradition

746
00:46:06,404 --> 00:46:10,216
without screwing it up. You know, I mean, you can screw it

747
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:13,976
up. Exactly. Exactly. They say, you know,

748
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,376
it's. It's. It's very,

749
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,364
very easy to make

750
00:46:21,664 --> 00:46:24,804
bad wine from good grapes,

751
00:46:25,424 --> 00:46:28,880
and it is very hard to make good wine from bad

752
00:46:28,912 --> 00:46:32,720
grapes. So the. The, you know, the.

753
00:46:32,752 --> 00:46:36,422
The terror is. Is so, so important.

754
00:46:36,478 --> 00:46:40,262
But Aubrey, our current winemaker, joined Canonkop when he

755
00:46:40,278 --> 00:46:43,918
was 28. Wow. Yeah. So isn't that sort

756
00:46:43,926 --> 00:46:47,230
of the irony of the wine business? Because here you are, the sales manager. You're

757
00:46:47,262 --> 00:46:50,606
here in America, you travel a long way to talk to people one at a

758
00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:54,214
time, almost. And then there's the farmer

759
00:46:54,334 --> 00:46:57,554
and the steward of the land who doesn't really care

760
00:46:58,174 --> 00:47:01,626
about what you're doing. He said that it pays his, you know, salary, but at

761
00:47:01,650 --> 00:47:04,834
some point, it's, like, not my problem anymore. You have to go sell what I

762
00:47:04,874 --> 00:47:08,522
produced. And it seems to be too, at some point,

763
00:47:08,578 --> 00:47:12,386
opposing, you know, philosophies or approaches to the

764
00:47:12,410 --> 00:47:16,162
industry because they really like, you

765
00:47:16,178 --> 00:47:19,970
know, there's a guy that I had on the show, and he gone

766
00:47:20,002 --> 00:47:23,826
to Burgundy and done something amazing. American who went to Burgundy, was

767
00:47:23,850 --> 00:47:27,424
able to buy land, and he produced wine, and he got out of it eventually.

768
00:47:27,804 --> 00:47:31,340
It proved to be very hard. The love of the farming part was

769
00:47:31,372 --> 00:47:34,884
great, but the part of getting it on the street and selling it was really,

770
00:47:34,924 --> 00:47:38,620
really difficult. Yeah, we're already out of time almost, but go ahead. No,

771
00:47:38,652 --> 00:47:40,584
well, I think.

772
00:47:42,484 --> 00:47:45,104
And, you know, you talk about

773
00:47:46,884 --> 00:47:50,704
the wine production side and the wine selling side. Right.

774
00:47:51,484 --> 00:47:54,586
Again, the

775
00:47:54,610 --> 00:47:57,454
Canonko philosophy and the Canonko

776
00:47:59,074 --> 00:48:02,098
brand is much bigger than

777
00:48:02,266 --> 00:48:05,850
Heinrich. Right. And at the end of the

778
00:48:05,882 --> 00:48:09,574
day, all I can do is I can be a vessel

779
00:48:10,954 --> 00:48:14,690
to talk about what has been

780
00:48:14,722 --> 00:48:18,094
going on for way longer. Before, I wasn't even a thought.

781
00:48:19,834 --> 00:48:23,084
So that's. That, for me is just the. The nice part

782
00:48:23,124 --> 00:48:26,820
is humbling, isn't that? It is absolutely

783
00:48:26,892 --> 00:48:30,304
right. And how many people and how many

784
00:48:30,964 --> 00:48:34,708
real, you know, visionaries have. Have

785
00:48:34,756 --> 00:48:38,588
been part of this and kind of gotten

786
00:48:38,716 --> 00:48:42,156
the product and the wine estate to where it is

787
00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:45,584
today. All I'm doing is I'm taking

788
00:48:46,724 --> 00:48:50,148
the baton, or part of the baton, and really

789
00:48:50,196 --> 00:48:54,020
just, you know, bringing it to the US. Where can

790
00:48:54,052 --> 00:48:57,572
I get cannon cope in Southern California? Do you know

791
00:48:57,628 --> 00:49:00,028
retail? Is there retail stores? Are you going to see one tonight? I think we're

792
00:49:00,036 --> 00:49:03,724
going to vendome tonight, right? Yeah, we're going to vendome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which

793
00:49:03,764 --> 00:49:07,580
city? You know, I'm. I'm not exactly.

794
00:49:07,612 --> 00:49:09,556
There's one down the street, but I don't think this is the one you're going

795
00:49:09,580 --> 00:49:13,362
to. Yeah, no, I'm. Look, I think the canonical

796
00:49:13,418 --> 00:49:16,666
brand, you'll. You'll find if you, you know, look for it. Go and. Go and

797
00:49:16,690 --> 00:49:19,770
search for it. We. We are, I think,

798
00:49:19,882 --> 00:49:23,370
uh, in. In a couple of retailers. I'm not

799
00:49:23,402 --> 00:49:27,226
exactly, uh. Yeah, exactly. Sure. Madeline. Madeleine. Yeah,

800
00:49:27,250 --> 00:49:30,962
yeah, yeah. Fascinating chat and love to

801
00:49:30,978 --> 00:49:33,618
hear your philosophy. This is great. Thank you. I hope we can do it again

802
00:49:33,666 --> 00:49:36,854
sometime. Next time you come to SoCal, Will.

803
00:49:37,354 --> 00:49:41,066
Well, first you must come and visit. Well, that I'm going to drink

804
00:49:41,090 --> 00:49:44,618
your water. Two conversations or three by the. I'm at four by the end of

805
00:49:44,626 --> 00:49:48,178
the week. Yeah, I think I can. I can

806
00:49:48,226 --> 00:49:51,506
convey the romance to my wife to make the

807
00:49:51,530 --> 00:49:55,250
trek, visit and see it, how beautiful

808
00:49:55,282 --> 00:49:57,774
it is and meeting you guys and your

809
00:49:58,314 --> 00:50:02,050
comrades and knowing Peter well,

810
00:50:02,242 --> 00:50:05,934
that it must be a bucket list wine thing. And now

811
00:50:06,594 --> 00:50:10,290
because she's older, I really want

812
00:50:10,322 --> 00:50:14,026
to sit with her and hear. More and I

813
00:50:14,050 --> 00:50:17,894
think it's really

814
00:50:18,754 --> 00:50:21,774
amazing what she's made

815
00:50:22,794 --> 00:50:26,226
with Glenn. Ellie in Stellenbosch. It really is

816
00:50:26,410 --> 00:50:30,074
a beautiful cellar

817
00:50:30,234 --> 00:50:33,730
and the wine range is fantastic and it just

818
00:50:33,762 --> 00:50:37,424
shows if you want to do something,

819
00:50:38,004 --> 00:50:41,732
if you've got a batch, if you've got a why. That's why. I like.

820
00:50:41,748 --> 00:50:45,412
That was a great word. Call it that. Yeah. Then.

821
00:50:45,468 --> 00:50:49,084
Then I think that it's. You guys always

822
00:50:49,124 --> 00:50:52,636
talk about a land of opportunity in the US and I

823
00:50:52,660 --> 00:50:56,100
think opportunity is one thing we're not short of in South

824
00:50:56,132 --> 00:50:59,876
Africa. Well, you got my why stimulated

825
00:50:59,940 --> 00:51:02,812
because we're going to come down and. And check it out. It's a pleasure to

826
00:51:02,828 --> 00:51:06,212
meet you. Same. Thanks, Paul. And hear about what's going on in canon Cope and

827
00:51:06,228 --> 00:51:09,780
appreciate it in general in Washington. I wish you

828
00:51:09,892 --> 00:51:13,700
good luck and safe travels. The rest of this. Thank you very much. Keep

829
00:51:13,732 --> 00:51:17,380
that charm up and appreciate it. Get these people tasting

830
00:51:17,412 --> 00:51:20,908
some. Some great South Africans. Awesome.

831
00:51:20,996 --> 00:51:22,744
Cheers. Thanks, man. Cheers.

832
00:51:31,244 --> 00:51:34,596
Thank you for listening to wine talks with, with Paul Callum Carrion. Don't forget to

833
00:51:34,620 --> 00:51:37,764
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

834
00:51:37,924 --> 00:51:41,244
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.