Wine As It Is Stated In The Bible. She Clears Up The Discussion. Meet Dr. Gisela Kreglilnger

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Wine is God's way of kissing humanity. It is a very intimate encounter

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with something very beautiful that deeply impacts our body.

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A beautiful smell or a very complex, varied smell can

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evoke emotions and memories that we have stored up

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since childhood so they can move us. Wine

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and smell can move us in profound ways if we

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allow it to do it. Sit back and grab a

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glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California. A little wet outside, but beautiful just the same. About to

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have a conversation with Geisha La K. How about that?

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Wonderful. Hey, listen, do

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me a favor. Do a nice review for Wine Talks. When you get a chance,

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subscribe to the show. If you don't have anything nice to say, please don't say

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it at all. But that's how us podcasters keep our egos in check.

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But now while we're here, I am inspired, excited,

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even, like using that word, excited. It doesn't mean that much these days, but inspired

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really, to have this conversation with Gisla about wine

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and the church and Christianity. Welcome to the show, Paul. It

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is so wonderful to be with you. I'm delighted.

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Well, this is just gonna be fun because I have a lot of questions and

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I have a lot of interest, and I think I told you off

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camera because I do want to produce a show about wine

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in the role of the Armenian church, which is as a

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study with a PhD in theology and two master's

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degrees in Christianity or theology. You're probably going to

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know a lot about this, actually. Have you heard of a guy named Claude

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Mutafian by chance? I have not. He's a

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Parisian. He's a professor of physics at the University of

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Paris, or was, and. And physics and

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mathematics. But he's an expert on Armenian theology

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from the 13th century, and he was on the show. I haven't

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released it yet because I'm waiting. It's not about wine. And I'm trying to figure

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out how I do that with the Wine Talks. But, wow, this is going to

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be a fascinating subject, but really kind of important. You know, most

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people, when they think about wine in the Bible, all they know is about Jesus

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turned the, you know, water to wine at the Jewish wedding. And I did a

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calculation. Check me if I'm wrong on this. And I told our

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local pastor when he was preaching on the subject,

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I took whatever the vessel was that day,

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forgot the name of it that was that stored the

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wine, and I took today's modern

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consumption of a Wedding wine, which used to be, if I was consulting

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for a wedding, I would do four people to a bottle. Let's just say that's

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the formula from back then. I calculated there were 3,500

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people at the wedding that he switched the wine to. Which

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wouldn't they invite the whole village? Well, you have to remember that

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wine lasted up to seven. Weddings at the time

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lasted up to seven days. They

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were celebrating for a long time and they probably

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drank a little bit more wine than we do today for

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such special occasions as weddings. You know, I don't think they

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would have enjoyed that much on a day to day basis. They probably didn't have

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that much. But for weddings, they were very, very

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important celebrations. They would have had a lot of wine. And to make sure

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that they celebrated in accordance with

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the occasion, well, that. Would have been, I guess if I calculated backwards, that would

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be about 900 bottles. So that would, that might jive. Right. We might be in

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good shape with that calculation anyway. Yeah, I just thought it was fun to make

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that calculation. But this is an interesting subject and I'm interested to know with

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your two master's degrees and your PhD in

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theology, that you landed on this. Because I looked at some of your

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videos and read some of your work and I'm like, wow, this, this

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is rather granular study of wine

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and theology. Well, my general field

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of research and teaching has been in Christian spirituality.

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Given what we know about the Bible, given what we know about theology,

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how are we then to live is sort of a question that I've always

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sort of pursued. And my first book actually is

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on George McDonald. This is sort of my PhD called

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Storied Revelations. Very interdisciplinary work. Because I

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feel like as theologians we need to reconnect the dots. So

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much of our theology and so much of our contemporary life is sort of

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disjointed because of how life works. And I feel like

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we need to reconnect the dots. And so when it came to writing

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my second book, which you need to do when you are in a tenure track

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teaching position. Right. You know, I realized

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that no one had really written on this. Obviously there are books

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that, you know, why wine isn't alcoholic in

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the Bible and, but nothing serious, nothing

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academically serious had been written on the biblical,

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theological and spiritual understanding of wine and what that actually

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means for us, for the church, what that means for

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vintners. Are they, you know, is this a

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spiritual vocation? And so I, you know,

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and as I was sort of talking to publishers, they were so interested

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in the Subject matter that I realized, you know, being a

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theologian and having grown up on a wine, on a winery and

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being comfortable in the wine world, I felt like I could really make a

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contribution. And so that's how I sort of

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pursued this. And the Spirituality of Wine is really

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quite a groundbreaking work because it sort

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of looks at wine in the Bible, wine in the history of the

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church, a theology of feasting, a theology of the senses,

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understanding the role of wine in the Lord's Supper, and then asking

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questions about what does that mean for us, for the

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church, what does that mean for agriculture? What does it mean to use

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technology in winemaking? What are we doing with alcohol abuse?

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You know, and does swine have anything to say about

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soul care? We cannot possibly cover

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all this in one. So I'm inviting you to a second episode at

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least. There's too many questions to be answered.

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And I and I discussed when we, we started that I'm Armenian

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and we were in Armenia. And let's just start with that. You know,

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Noah landed his ark on Mount Ara, which is the Armenian at the time, and

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he planted grapes. And of course, if you just, if you focus on the Bible

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and just that portion of wine, he became drunk and naked. So

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that kind of is kind of for

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agnostics anyway. It kind of just defeats the whole idea. Like, oh,

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well, you know, the guy got drunk and he was naked. So that's not a

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very good thing. How do we go from there?

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Okay. The very important thing is that after Noah gets off

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the ark, God makes a covenant with Noah to

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promise to bless him and all the living creatures. And

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then the first thing that Noah Dassi plants a vineyard, you

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know, and in that world, you know,

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vineyards and wine was a highly esteemed cultural

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good. So I actually argue in both

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cup overflowing and then the video series Wine in the Word

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that I created together with Randy Frazee, that

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it was a powerful act of faith. You know, think about it. Surviving

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a flood and starting anew. Why did he not

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plant a fast growing crop like a grain?

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No, he didn't. He planted a vineyard that takes four to five years to have

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a significant harvest. And I believe is that it was an act of

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faith that God, that Noah trusted in

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God's future, that God had a future for him and his descendants.

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And therefore he planted a vineyard because they were going to be a

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civilization. For that you need wine to celebrate

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had Noah got drunk. I mean, I grew up in the wine world. If

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you have never planted a vineyard and you plant a vineyard, you wait

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for years. You finally have your first vintage.

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No one will blame you for getting intoxicated and having a little

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bit too much fun. And the text actually doesn't

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give no hard time for it. It gives, you know, what

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is really judged is the action of the son, the grandson, of coming

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in. And rather than covering up the shame, they intensified the

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shame by spreading the news that got harshly judged.

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And I think that's really important. And so as the theme of wine

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continues to develop in Scripture, it is very clear

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wine is seen as a very precious gift from God,

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a blessing from God, and, you know, as

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the tradition, and, you know, the people of God

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mature. When you come to proverbs, you have a very nuanced

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understanding with a lot of wisdom woven into. Yes, wine

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is a gift from God, but we need to enjoy it wisely, and we certainly

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must not abuse it. You know, this is a. This is

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what's so fascinating. And again, a word that my friends give me,

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criticize me for using all the time. But one of the questions I

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asked many vintners, and I want to ask you a couple of questions that are

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not related necessarily to the subject. One is, do you usually speak on this

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subject to wine people or do you usually in a

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theology environment? In both. I mean,

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we. When we. We just had the launch party for Wine in the World

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and the video series, and we went to Napa where we filmed it,

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and at the launch party, there were a lot of vitners and people,

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people who work in the wine and food industry. And I was just in

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Chattanooga for three days in various organizations,

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Christian's organization held

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events that they invited people from the food industry

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to. To encourage them, because working in the food industry

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is really, really hard. And what they do is very important,

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at least from the biblical perspective. Hospitality,

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yeah. Is tough. And you're. Maybe this. Maybe this next

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question is what answers that. Because the question I always ask

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the vintners is, can you

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define why the grape planted in the

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vineyard that's been fermented into wine

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is entirely different than any other beverage that

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we consume? Yeah. And the connection

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that allows us to sit back, it stimulates

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conversation. All the benefits that we have as humans,

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but nothing else in this world

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represents where it's grown and

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why it's grown than wine. You can't describe the connection, the

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human soul to the proper glass. Not the cheap stuff at the

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store. But the good stuff, I think. And this is very important. When

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Jesus performed his first miracle, he transformed

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water into choice wine into beautiful wine. Wine

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with expression. And wine is used to speak about the

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kingdom of God, about God's work with his people. And I

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think there can be so much beauty in

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wine and complexity and nuance. If you

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craft a wine well, and if you have the capacity to

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really savor and enjoy it,

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that is so expressive, and that's so beautiful.

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The other thing is that, you know, you can really keep wine for a long

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time. So what other food can you keep as long as

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wine? And it speaks about eternity.

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What God does lasts. And so if you

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choose a food which is perishable, you know, you would have

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chosen. They didn't have distilled

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spirits back then. And that's also not very flavorful.

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Wine is. It is very flavorful, and

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it can last for a long time if it's well crafted and it

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has an intoxicating effect. I talk about

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holy tipsiness. There is a level. Holy

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tipsiness, Holy tipsiness. There's a level of intoxication

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that wine can bring that is actually really beautiful. I've

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seen it growing up in a tasting room. It's not about getting drunk. It's not

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about getting out of control or shutting down because you've had so much alcohol. But

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it's that level of wine intake that helps you to relax,

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that warms the body. And suddenly you open up, you let

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go of your pretenses and, you know, holding up the masks that we

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all hold up because we need to appear a certain way to our

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culture. And you, you, you, you come to a more vulnerable

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and honest place. And confessions come more easily. Confessions

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of joy and delight in confessions of failure and

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grief and loss. And therefore, it

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functions as a social lubricant and glue. It

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connects us more deeply to one another.

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And God gave wine because he wanted

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to woo back humanity to himself. In Germany, we have a saying

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that wine is God's way of kissing

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humanity. It is a very intimate encounter with something very beautiful

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that deeply impacts our body. And, you know, the

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neurosciences have done a lot of research in how we

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process smell, and they've shown that the part of the brain that

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processes smell, or the regions of the

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brain where the smell goes through, process emotions

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and memory. So a beautiful smell or a very

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complex, varied smell can evoke emotions

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and memories that we have stored up since childhood. So they

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can move us. Wine and smell can move us in

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profound ways if we allow it to do

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it. You know, this is interesting because I

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hold this position as well. And one is the scientists can

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tell us how that happens, right? They can dig

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as deep as they want, but they can't tell us why that happens. It's interesting

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that the. Our tongues like memory. For instance, I have a story that I tell

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about a quiche I had in Paris a couple years ago that I hadn't

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had for 50 years. So my mother made the same quiche, and when.

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When the plate was put in front of me, my face changed, and my wife's

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like, what's. What's going on? I said, I haven't smelled this for 50 years. And

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I went right back to my childhood sitting at the dinner table. Yeah, and that.

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But. So we can explain why that happened molecularly or

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biologically, but we can't explain why. Why it happened. And

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that has to come from God. It has to come from a deeper source that

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we can't explain as to why wine does this for us.

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Why is a human soul connected to the earth through a glass of wine

241
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:44,742
and not through a beer, not through a shot of Jack Daniels and not through

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00:14:44,766 --> 00:14:48,582
tequila. Yeah, well. But the neurosciences, they do give us some

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insight in how our brain processes smell and

244
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how they then connect us to our

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emotions and the memories that we've stored up. For example, they have

246
00:14:59,624 --> 00:15:03,472
shown that, you know, the way we can identify the flavor profile in a

247
00:15:03,496 --> 00:15:07,312
wine is because we have memories of flavors stored up in

248
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our brain. Right. So when we smell something like cherry

249
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,752
or a little bit of oak or a little

250
00:15:14,776 --> 00:15:18,544
bit of grass or something floral, you know, those flavor

251
00:15:18,592 --> 00:15:22,224
memories are connected to even deeper and more comprehensive

252
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memories that we've stored up in our bodies, and they are

253
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evoked. So God made us this way.

254
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And that is why, for. For example, when we have wine in the

255
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Lord's supper and we smell the wine, it can really,

256
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if we allow it to, and if we have trained ourselves

257
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and to sense salvation, as I say it, it can

258
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really stir us in these very profound ways rather than just

259
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thinking through ideas, it's this more embodied

260
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way of engaging, of experiencing

261
00:15:54,252 --> 00:15:57,880
and remembering what God has done. So it's a very

262
00:15:58,510 --> 00:16:02,262
understandable thing that wine is singled out. And I think

263
00:16:02,286 --> 00:16:05,974
ancient civilizations had a good understanding of how wine

264
00:16:06,022 --> 00:16:08,810
operated and why wine was so precious.

265
00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:12,934
And. Yeah, and the other thing about, you know, vines

266
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and vineyards, they can grow and flourish

267
00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:20,210
in areas and elevations. They're very, very

268
00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:24,262
little other edible things can grow. So you don't need

269
00:16:24,286 --> 00:16:27,962
to have this rich, fertile soil on a

270
00:16:27,986 --> 00:16:31,466
flat surface. You can go to very steep and

271
00:16:31,538 --> 00:16:35,322
rocky hills like in

272
00:16:35,346 --> 00:16:38,970
Germany when you go to the Mosel, and

273
00:16:39,090 --> 00:16:42,634
you can plant vineyards there, and they can root

274
00:16:42,682 --> 00:16:45,710
themselves and Produce

275
00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:50,346
fruit that can be turned into something very,

276
00:16:50,418 --> 00:16:53,990
very delicious. And yet it seems such a barren place.

277
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,060
By the way, I spent six weeks in Germany on study

278
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,904
of German media, from opera to

279
00:17:01,992 --> 00:17:05,072
film to music. This is

280
00:17:05,096 --> 00:17:08,656
1979, so a little while ago, but. And I loved

281
00:17:08,688 --> 00:17:12,432
it very. All of it. Maybe that's why my dad had German wine for

282
00:17:12,456 --> 00:17:15,856
my wedding in 1986. So after Noah's

283
00:17:15,968 --> 00:17:19,344
episode, flying the grapes. And I never even thought about this idea

284
00:17:19,392 --> 00:17:23,140
that, you know, we as wine people, we know

285
00:17:23,180 --> 00:17:25,844
it takes four to five years for that first crop to come and to make.

286
00:17:25,932 --> 00:17:29,652
Make anything. And I didn't think about that space between him landing and

287
00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:33,492
planting and waiting. When does wine show up next in

288
00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:37,268
the Bible? I think I'm going to jump right to our patriarchs.

289
00:17:37,364 --> 00:17:40,788
You know, when Isaac blesses his son Jacob,

290
00:17:40,964 --> 00:17:44,772
part of that blessing, he says, may God give you of the dew

291
00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:48,258
of heaven, of the fatness of the earth, and

292
00:17:48,314 --> 00:17:51,858
plenty of grain and wine. And then when

293
00:17:51,914 --> 00:17:55,550
Jacob in turn blesses his son Judah, again,

294
00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:59,234
vines and an abundance of wine features

295
00:17:59,282 --> 00:18:02,530
prominently. And I think that's really, really important and

296
00:18:02,570 --> 00:18:05,954
foundational that in the Hebrew

297
00:18:06,002 --> 00:18:09,282
scriptures, wine is understood. In the

298
00:18:09,306 --> 00:18:12,810
patriarchs, seed is a blessing from God, not a

299
00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:16,650
symbol of a blessing, but an actual tangible

300
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blessing. And I think this is what's so hard for us to understand because

301
00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:24,362
we want so quickly to move on to the metaphorical meaning of it all. But

302
00:18:24,386 --> 00:18:28,218
it's like, no, God made this world beautiful. And all

303
00:18:28,274 --> 00:18:31,738
that the earth brings forth, the fruit of the earth is a gift from

304
00:18:31,794 --> 00:18:35,530
God. And, you know, Psalm 104,

305
00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:39,226
the beautiful creation, Psalm praises creation. And all that it brings

306
00:18:39,258 --> 00:18:42,680
forth is because God makes it to come forth.

307
00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:47,044
And then in Psalm 104, it singles out wine and says, God

308
00:18:47,092 --> 00:18:50,520
gave wine to gladden the hearts of humanity.

309
00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:54,772
It is not just for our survival, like bread, you

310
00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:58,596
know, to give us sustenance. Wine is to bring us gladness.

311
00:18:58,708 --> 00:19:02,340
It is to help us in our celebrations. And, you know,

312
00:19:02,380 --> 00:19:05,988
celebrations are an important way that believers

313
00:19:06,084 --> 00:19:08,160
in scripture have always

314
00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:13,518
practice their faith. They celebrated God's goodness.

315
00:19:13,694 --> 00:19:16,942
You know, that when they celebrated the first fruits, they had a

316
00:19:16,966 --> 00:19:20,510
celebration for that or, you know, the Passover meal.

317
00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:24,130
They celebrated a whole evening

318
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:28,302
and reenacted the story of the Exodus. And then they used

319
00:19:28,406 --> 00:19:31,982
food to help them remember and ingest and to

320
00:19:32,006 --> 00:19:35,712
smell that God had saved them.

321
00:19:35,816 --> 00:19:39,296
And by the time of Jesus, the Passover meal

322
00:19:39,328 --> 00:19:43,120
included four cups of wine. You're going to be very careful with this

323
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,832
message because if it gets out too much in our industry, you might find a

324
00:19:46,856 --> 00:19:50,256
whole change in the way people sell wine and

325
00:19:50,408 --> 00:19:54,032
approach the marketplace because it's such a difficult industry.

326
00:19:54,216 --> 00:19:57,888
And you're painting such an amazing story about the

327
00:19:57,944 --> 00:20:01,290
history of what we do. You know, it's interesting to

328
00:20:01,330 --> 00:20:04,938
me how the role in the church.

329
00:20:05,034 --> 00:20:08,554
How in the role of church? Because church is the human expression of

330
00:20:08,642 --> 00:20:11,990
their understanding of God. Right. So how does.

331
00:20:12,690 --> 00:20:15,270
Why does. And how do different

332
00:20:15,890 --> 00:20:19,594
sects. Sects use it? One of my son in

333
00:20:19,602 --> 00:20:23,402
laws is an Anglican priest in New York, and it's a very

334
00:20:23,426 --> 00:20:27,242
important part of church to have

335
00:20:27,426 --> 00:20:31,194
particular wines. Not just any wine, but particular wines. My other son in

336
00:20:31,202 --> 00:20:34,922
law just graduated from Fuller Theology with his master's and he's

337
00:20:34,986 --> 00:20:38,570
now starting his career. How did that evolve? How did that

338
00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:42,234
change from one church to the other? And how did that role happen?

339
00:20:42,322 --> 00:20:46,058
Right. I mean, it's a long history. And again, I talk about that both

340
00:20:46,114 --> 00:20:49,818
in my first book, the Spirituality of Wine, and then also

341
00:20:49,954 --> 00:20:53,804
in Cup Overflowing it really, when we look at

342
00:20:53,812 --> 00:20:56,988
the Western church, we have to look at monasticism

343
00:20:57,084 --> 00:21:00,924
and St. Benedict and the Rule of St.

344
00:21:00,972 --> 00:21:04,572
Benedict. And in that rule, he says that he

345
00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:08,412
gives permission for every monk and nun to have one hermanna

346
00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:12,204
of wine a day. That's probably approximately a third of a

347
00:21:12,212 --> 00:21:15,980
liter because he was ministering in Italy and everyone drank wine. And he

348
00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:19,676
probably would have appreciated or emphasized, you know, no wine.

349
00:21:19,708 --> 00:21:23,370
But the Bible talks about wine. He lived in Italy. So I said,

350
00:21:23,410 --> 00:21:27,018
okay, one of wine a day. And then if it's really

351
00:21:27,074 --> 00:21:30,250
hot or if you have really, really strenuous labor, you can drink a little bit

352
00:21:30,290 --> 00:21:33,898
more. So and then when the Benedictines

353
00:21:34,074 --> 00:21:37,786
started all of these monastery all over Europe, of course they planted

354
00:21:37,818 --> 00:21:41,162
vineyards. Then the reform movement of the Benedictines, the

355
00:21:41,186 --> 00:21:44,954
Cistercians did the same. And so when you go to Burgundy,

356
00:21:45,002 --> 00:21:48,516
for example, most of the gras there were first

357
00:21:48,588 --> 00:21:52,068
planted by monks and nuns. And so that that

358
00:21:52,124 --> 00:21:55,972
continued. And in the US

359
00:21:56,076 --> 00:21:59,844
when the pilgrims came over on the east coast, they also wanted to

360
00:21:59,852 --> 00:22:03,700
plant vineyards. But the vitis vinifera that they

361
00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:07,428
had wouldn't take because it was too humid, the climate wasn't suitable,

362
00:22:07,524 --> 00:22:10,900
and so they couldn't plant vineyards. And

363
00:22:10,940 --> 00:22:14,276
then really it was rum and whiskey, hard

364
00:22:14,348 --> 00:22:18,180
liquor that became the primary drink of the people. This country

365
00:22:18,220 --> 00:22:21,972
came of age during the Industrial Revolution that they were able to

366
00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:24,200
mass produce distilleries.

367
00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:29,876
George Washington, for example, after retiring from being the president,

368
00:22:30,028 --> 00:22:33,828
retreated onto his estate, Mount Vernon, and started a massive distillery.

369
00:22:33,924 --> 00:22:37,440
It was a very lucrative business. And he probably didn't think

370
00:22:38,060 --> 00:22:41,892
what that could do for his people in terms of distilleries

371
00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:45,400
just exploded and distilled spirits

372
00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:49,812
became readily available to

373
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the population for the first time in human history. Think about that.

374
00:22:53,420 --> 00:22:56,964
So Americans relationship with wine, with alcohol

375
00:22:57,092 --> 00:23:00,920
is really shaped by this very, what I call a very unfortunate

376
00:23:02,460 --> 00:23:05,988
happening of historical circumstances.

377
00:23:06,164 --> 00:23:09,656
They couldn't plant vineyards, but they could make distilled

378
00:23:09,688 --> 00:23:13,480
spirits. And a lot of the challenges with

379
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,144
alcohol abuse over the years

380
00:23:17,232 --> 00:23:20,840
and centuries really has to do with hard

381
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,712
liquor. And so when that got out of control

382
00:23:24,816 --> 00:23:28,200
once more and so many, there was so much

383
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,448
destruction because of the abuse of hard

384
00:23:31,504 --> 00:23:34,260
liquor. The temperance movement started

385
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:38,902
and then Thomas Welch applied pasteurization to

386
00:23:38,926 --> 00:23:42,310
grape juice and kept it from fermenting. And so it was the

387
00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:45,570
Baptists and the Methodists that started using

388
00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:49,910
grape juice in the Lord's Supper because of all the alcohol abuse.

389
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:52,730
While the Catholics and the Anglicans

390
00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:56,982
and the Lutherans continued to

391
00:23:57,006 --> 00:24:00,502
use wine, the Baptists, the Methodists and the Presbyterians

392
00:24:00,566 --> 00:24:04,142
stopped using it. But before that all denominations

393
00:24:04,206 --> 00:24:08,030
used wine in the Lord's Supper. And this idea that you shouldn't be drinking any

394
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:11,806
alcohol is, you know, that really emerged in the 19th

395
00:24:11,838 --> 00:24:15,390
century. And so now people are taking a step back and saying

396
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:19,214
wait, wait, listen, listen. This is a very particular history. We have

397
00:24:19,222 --> 00:24:22,846
to come to terms with that. And in the Bible it's the most talked

398
00:24:22,878 --> 00:24:26,622
about food. In the Bible it's affirmed as a gift from

399
00:24:26,646 --> 00:24:30,372
God. And we as a society can learn how to

400
00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:34,212
develop wisdom around enjoying wine so that it

401
00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:37,840
can really bring us the benefits that God meant to bring

402
00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:41,924
rather than be destructive. You know, interesting

403
00:24:41,972 --> 00:24:45,412
points. Prohibition in America was really a political movement

404
00:24:45,556 --> 00:24:49,284
and yes there was some abuse. But I think it's kind of

405
00:24:49,292 --> 00:24:52,772
interesting because now grapes in the east coast are very popular and some

406
00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:56,404
amazing like Long island and different parts of New York are becoming

407
00:24:56,532 --> 00:24:59,966
Virginia's got know growing. And I know that Thomas Jefferson tried

408
00:24:59,998 --> 00:25:03,662
desperately to. To do it and finally now it's working. And it kind

409
00:25:03,686 --> 00:25:07,166
of, kind of interesting that there are that God put it

410
00:25:07,318 --> 00:25:11,054
virtually everywhere in the world and that, that

411
00:25:11,142 --> 00:25:14,686
that Riesling and. And Neo

412
00:25:14,718 --> 00:25:17,530
grow great and pres. And present to

413
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:21,854
people the expression of Germany. And

414
00:25:22,022 --> 00:25:25,808
throughout the world. Each, each region has its own sort of way

415
00:25:25,864 --> 00:25:29,440
of expressing itself because of that. And I think what's really

416
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,312
important is I think people really get to know a place well when

417
00:25:33,336 --> 00:25:36,880
they figure out what grape varieties grow best in your

418
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,752
region. I feel like that's when a place is coming of age. And you

419
00:25:40,776 --> 00:25:44,464
know, I was just in Sonoma in talking to

420
00:25:44,472 --> 00:25:48,208
Some vintners there, I mean, you know, the geology

421
00:25:48,304 --> 00:25:52,080
is so varied there in the climate, and people are still figuring out, well,

422
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,830
what grape varieties grow really well in those patches. And

423
00:25:55,870 --> 00:25:59,210
as that happens more and more and you have that discernment,

424
00:25:59,550 --> 00:26:03,190
you can craft really, really beautiful wines. But for the monks, that

425
00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:06,934
took hundreds and hundreds of years. You know, the Benedictines

426
00:26:06,982 --> 00:26:10,422
and Cistercians started planting them in the, you

427
00:26:10,446 --> 00:26:13,989
know, started in 7th, 8th,

428
00:26:14,059 --> 00:26:17,880
9th century. It really took off in the 11th, 12th,

429
00:26:17,976 --> 00:26:21,734
13th century. So they've had a long time to really, you know, like with

430
00:26:21,742 --> 00:26:25,250
the Pinot Noir and Chardonnay in Burgundy or the

431
00:26:25,290 --> 00:26:29,090
Riesling in Germany, it took a long time for them to figure out

432
00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:32,850
what grew really well. And now, you

433
00:26:32,890 --> 00:26:36,546
know, that is such an expression of that place, though,

434
00:26:36,618 --> 00:26:40,306
you know, with the climate changing, that all changes

435
00:26:40,338 --> 00:26:44,002
once more. It's changing too. But you know, that's. I've always said

436
00:26:44,026 --> 00:26:47,762
this in conversation with people, particularly about Burgundy. How did

437
00:26:47,786 --> 00:26:51,602
the 12th century monks know that, you know, Chassel, Montauchet or

438
00:26:51,626 --> 00:26:55,410
Courtin, Charlemagne, all those places are so different and such

439
00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:59,022
small, fragmented piece of land. And somebody goes, well, they had nothing but

440
00:26:59,046 --> 00:27:02,730
time. So they just. And you're saying it took a long time. But

441
00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:06,730
I don't want to address that necessarily. Here's something interesting because the port,

442
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:11,534
my son in law in New York, they use a particular port for

443
00:27:11,622 --> 00:27:14,970
most of the ceremonies and they have to bless the port. And then

444
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:19,662
the priests, if they go through the service and there's leftover

445
00:27:19,726 --> 00:27:23,198
port, they can't leave until they finish all the port. And I'm thinking

446
00:27:23,214 --> 00:27:27,012
that's more of a. He goes, sometimes we

447
00:27:27,036 --> 00:27:30,292
over buy, you know, and we have to sit there and it takes a little

448
00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:34,132
while to get through it all. But I thought that's an interesting process

449
00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,844
for the church to take on that once you bless this, you

450
00:27:37,932 --> 00:27:40,840
got to finish it because that's what it's for. Yeah,

451
00:27:43,180 --> 00:27:46,948
there's so many questions. I'm not sure where to start. But what's the next step

452
00:27:47,004 --> 00:27:50,500
then in the Bible for wine? Now you mentioned the Last Supper

453
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:54,392
and he said, take this wine that represents my blood. Yeah. Well, if

454
00:27:54,416 --> 00:27:58,104
you, if you look at really the development of the Hebrew scriptures, you

455
00:27:58,112 --> 00:28:01,608
know, wine, when people, when the Israelites come into the promised land,

456
00:28:01,744 --> 00:28:05,448
you know, to have, you know, vineyards there

457
00:28:05,504 --> 00:28:09,304
and wine was just an important part of God blesses them.

458
00:28:09,472 --> 00:28:13,272
And, you know, the people are sent into exile because they do

459
00:28:13,296 --> 00:28:17,080
not live in ways to become a blessing to others and

460
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:20,472
to take care of the most vulnerable in their society. But then the

461
00:28:20,496 --> 00:28:24,122
prophets also talk about a time of redemption where God would

462
00:28:24,146 --> 00:28:27,930
redeem his people once more. And one way that they talk

463
00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:31,786
about is that there would be feasting, that wine would be flowing

464
00:28:31,818 --> 00:28:35,510
in great abundance down the mountains, and

465
00:28:35,970 --> 00:28:39,658
that there would be celebration, rejoicing,

466
00:28:39,834 --> 00:28:43,530
wine, you know, the enjoyment of wine and

467
00:28:43,570 --> 00:28:47,162
food, and even a wedding feast. That's how the prophets, the

468
00:28:47,186 --> 00:28:50,876
latter prophets, talked about how God would send a messiah,

469
00:28:50,908 --> 00:28:54,540
an anointed one, to save his people once

470
00:28:54,580 --> 00:28:58,428
more. So when Jesus performs his first miracle of turning water

471
00:28:58,484 --> 00:29:02,188
into wine at a wedding feast, what he's really doing is saying,

472
00:29:02,324 --> 00:29:06,172
I am the Messiah. I am the anointed one that God has

473
00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:09,852
sent, and the kingdom of God is at hand. And

474
00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:13,404
the way we know that is that there's a great celebration, a wedding

475
00:29:13,452 --> 00:29:16,700
feast. God, our bridegroom in

476
00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:20,346
Christ, in the church as the bride, are now being

477
00:29:20,508 --> 00:29:23,982
reunited. And I think that's really, really important, that

478
00:29:24,006 --> 00:29:27,838
Jesus, that first miracle, really responds to the prophecies

479
00:29:27,934 --> 00:29:31,210
of the Old Testament and fulfills them by

480
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:35,390
coming and joining a party and then providing this

481
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:39,102
abundance of wine. And then, you know, when. When Jesus

482
00:29:39,166 --> 00:29:42,878
celebrates the Passover meal with his disciples, which at the time

483
00:29:42,934 --> 00:29:46,542
included the drinking of four cups of wine, he elevates

484
00:29:46,606 --> 00:29:50,356
wine to new heights when he says, you know, drink this. Drink

485
00:29:50,388 --> 00:29:54,100
this cup of wine. This is my blood shed for you.

486
00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:57,600
So wine now speaks to

487
00:29:58,060 --> 00:30:01,860
Christ's blood and Christ's sacrificial death and his

488
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:05,700
resurrection. So I think that here it is elevated to new

489
00:30:05,740 --> 00:30:09,236
heights. And all that makes

490
00:30:09,308 --> 00:30:12,916
wine even. Even more important for the biblical

491
00:30:12,948 --> 00:30:16,482
story and for Christians. And I think

492
00:30:16,666 --> 00:30:19,922
wine has such deep

493
00:30:19,986 --> 00:30:23,762
symbolic meaning. You know, think about Christ's sacrifice

494
00:30:23,826 --> 00:30:27,586
and the process of him being crushed on the cross.

495
00:30:27,778 --> 00:30:31,330
And through his death and resurrection, new life

496
00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:34,690
happens. And think about the winemaking process and the grapes being

497
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:38,210
crushed and gathered up and transformed from

498
00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:41,954
sticky grape juice into something very beautiful and lasting.

499
00:30:42,082 --> 00:30:45,912
So there's so many parallels. So that whole winemaking process,

500
00:30:46,016 --> 00:30:49,720
which the people at the time would have been very, very familiar with, everyone was

501
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,544
involved in making wine at the time, but today we're not. So it doesn't

502
00:30:53,592 --> 00:30:56,900
mean too much, very much, but to them, it certainly did.

503
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,744
Are there misinterpretations by atheists, agnostics,

504
00:31:00,792 --> 00:31:04,392
about those stories and wine and how it plays a role in

505
00:31:04,416 --> 00:31:08,184
humanity? I'm not quite sure I'm understanding your question.

506
00:31:08,272 --> 00:31:12,006
Well, would somebody. Would somebody who's an agnostic or an atheist

507
00:31:12,038 --> 00:31:15,798
say, well, that doesn't represent those things. It's alcohol. And you're just

508
00:31:15,854 --> 00:31:19,158
using it to get drunk. Are there people that sort of try

509
00:31:19,214 --> 00:31:22,582
to diffuse your position on

510
00:31:22,606 --> 00:31:26,374
what? Well, there are certainly Christians, you know, talking about this particular

511
00:31:26,462 --> 00:31:30,166
history in the US that say, well, the wine in the Bible

512
00:31:30,198 --> 00:31:33,622
didn't have any alcohol because God wouldn't use alcohol. You

513
00:31:33,646 --> 00:31:37,318
know, that's because they're traumatized by alcohol abuse. I hear

514
00:31:37,374 --> 00:31:41,050
that sometimes still. But in general, I think

515
00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:44,890
people realize that no wine probably not

516
00:31:44,930 --> 00:31:48,682
only probably did have alcohol, because otherwise, how

517
00:31:48,706 --> 00:31:52,522
could people get drunk? And why would God then speak out against drunkenness and say,

518
00:31:52,546 --> 00:31:56,378
you shouldn't get drunk? You know, so that's more the concern

519
00:31:56,514 --> 00:32:00,362
in asking non believers saying, oh, you're just using an

520
00:32:00,386 --> 00:32:04,030
excuse. Well, people who understand wine,

521
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:08,828
who really understand wine, it makes a lot of sense to them. I mean,

522
00:32:08,884 --> 00:32:12,652
what other food could you use to talk about the

523
00:32:12,676 --> 00:32:16,220
Creator and Redeemer, not just of this

524
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,820
world, but the universe? I mean, what can speak to

525
00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:23,644
how God is present and acts in the world? What beauty?

526
00:32:23,692 --> 00:32:27,372
I mean, obviously creation in general is so beautiful. But

527
00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:30,844
that wine is singled out is for good reason, because

528
00:32:31,012 --> 00:32:34,156
at its best, if people really take care to craft something

529
00:32:34,228 --> 00:32:37,356
beautiful, it speaks so

530
00:32:37,428 --> 00:32:41,228
beautifully about the gift of life and how to enjoy it

531
00:32:41,284 --> 00:32:45,100
together and how it moves us. You know, there's

532
00:32:45,180 --> 00:32:48,748
tomes, right. Of. Of quotes from famed

533
00:32:48,844 --> 00:32:52,428
philosophers and all walks of life and

534
00:32:52,484 --> 00:32:56,300
the. The role of wine. You know, Hemingway was prolific the way he wrote about

535
00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:00,092
wine, but I wanted this. And since you. You obviously have

536
00:33:00,116 --> 00:33:03,038
a keen understanding of the wine industry itself and obviously now

537
00:33:03,164 --> 00:33:06,922
biblically, and some of the conversation I have. Much of the

538
00:33:06,946 --> 00:33:09,466
conversation I have today is about

539
00:33:09,618 --> 00:33:12,150
consumerism and.

540
00:33:13,810 --> 00:33:17,482
Versus a real glass of wine that's representative of

541
00:33:17,506 --> 00:33:21,338
this area. Right. So let's just take Burgundy, for instance. Let's just even take Chessel,

542
00:33:21,354 --> 00:33:25,194
Montrachet, just for fun. That consumerism

543
00:33:25,242 --> 00:33:28,970
of wine, the general consumerism of wine, it's.

544
00:33:29,050 --> 00:33:31,562
We need profit. We have to make as much as we can. We have to

545
00:33:31,586 --> 00:33:34,474
put as much into the logistical system to ship it to people. We got to

546
00:33:34,482 --> 00:33:37,414
make sure we get it in the system. And so the. So a lot of

547
00:33:37,422 --> 00:33:41,238
the industry is driven just purely by consumerism. Whereas,

548
00:33:41,334 --> 00:33:45,142
and I have this romantic view of wine, which is it represents where

549
00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:48,982
it's grown, when it was grown, and you know, what it. What speaks to you

550
00:33:49,006 --> 00:33:52,582
that way. And now we're throwing in this whole new level. And

551
00:33:52,606 --> 00:33:55,702
it's. I think it's a real level, the biblical

552
00:33:55,766 --> 00:33:59,430
application of wine and what it does to

553
00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:02,910
our soul. Yeah. So when you speak to vintners

554
00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:06,398
do you inspire them? I mean, I'm asking for the after

555
00:34:06,454 --> 00:34:09,870
effect. Do they come to you say, wow, now I've got a whole new interest

556
00:34:09,910 --> 00:34:13,726
in my business. And I don't really, you know, profitability is not so concerning

557
00:34:13,758 --> 00:34:17,502
anymore because I really want to be part of this movement of. Of

558
00:34:17,526 --> 00:34:21,182
wine. In the Bible, I think it's. It adds a dimension

559
00:34:21,246 --> 00:34:24,862
that's been lacking. You know, the spiritual and cultural

560
00:34:24,926 --> 00:34:28,748
dimension of wine has always been celebrated. Throughout

561
00:34:28,934 --> 00:34:32,522
wines existing, except for the last 60,

562
00:34:32,605 --> 00:34:36,080
70 years, and especially in a place like North

563
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,904
America, where wine is now accepted in this sort of wine guild,

564
00:34:39,952 --> 00:34:43,792
the wild experts have emerged, and the way they talk

565
00:34:43,816 --> 00:34:47,664
about wine is very narrow. We can learn a lot about, you

566
00:34:47,672 --> 00:34:51,440
know, when they describe the flavor profile, the alcohol, where

567
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,740
it comes from, you know, the soil type and all of those

568
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,120
things, they are helpful, and

569
00:34:58,420 --> 00:35:01,932
yet they are also very rationalistic. It's also all

570
00:35:01,956 --> 00:35:05,772
about, you know, dissecting the flavor profile. But when

571
00:35:05,796 --> 00:35:09,480
you really think about what wine does to

572
00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:13,244
your own body, into your

573
00:35:13,332 --> 00:35:17,036
conversation in the people that you're with, it

574
00:35:17,108 --> 00:35:19,944
really functions as a social

575
00:35:20,132 --> 00:35:23,660
lubricant in glue. And I also think

576
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,488
it can deeply nourish our souls as we

577
00:35:27,544 --> 00:35:31,152
savor this gift together and realize it's a

578
00:35:31,176 --> 00:35:34,880
gift from someone. It's not a random thing, but

579
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,592
God created the world in such a way that there

580
00:35:38,616 --> 00:35:42,240
are yeast bacteria swirling around and help us

581
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,648
to transform grape juice into wine. And then

582
00:35:45,704 --> 00:35:49,080
you develop this relationship with God on

583
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,648
this level of beauty and savoring

584
00:35:52,744 --> 00:35:56,296
and understanding something about his goodness. But also,

585
00:35:56,368 --> 00:36:00,216
you know, the way wine works and the way savoring

586
00:36:00,248 --> 00:36:03,800
and smelling works, how it so works upon our

587
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,656
pleasure center, upon our memories, storehouse

588
00:36:07,688 --> 00:36:11,176
of emotions that really can evoke

589
00:36:11,368 --> 00:36:15,072
sort of the creative spirit in us. And that's how

590
00:36:15,096 --> 00:36:18,660
it has shaped conversations and imagination,

591
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,288
creativity and civilizations throughout human

592
00:36:22,344 --> 00:36:25,936
history. And I think wine cannot speak for itself.

593
00:36:26,048 --> 00:36:29,776
And because the wine world or the wine experts have

594
00:36:29,848 --> 00:36:33,488
so bombarded us with all of this rationalized talk about

595
00:36:33,544 --> 00:36:37,168
wine. And there are some wine writers, like Andrew Jefford,

596
00:36:37,264 --> 00:36:41,028
one of the most beautiful wine writers alive today, who is saying, stop

597
00:36:41,084 --> 00:36:44,660
it. Who wants to have all of those tasting notes. Most people can't even

598
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:48,340
afford those wines. And we need to stop this

599
00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:52,116
craziness, and we need to talk about wine in different ways.

600
00:36:52,228 --> 00:36:55,988
More of, okay, where do they come from? You know, for example, I

601
00:36:56,044 --> 00:36:59,860
feel like French wines very much reflect not

602
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,316
only the soil in the particular

603
00:37:03,388 --> 00:37:06,530
climate, but they reflect the culture. French

604
00:37:06,610 --> 00:37:10,226
wines, you know, France is the country of

605
00:37:10,298 --> 00:37:13,858
Christian mysticism and The French wines have more

606
00:37:13,914 --> 00:37:17,650
mystique to them. There is something

607
00:37:17,690 --> 00:37:21,362
about them that's very different from German wines. You know, Germany is the

608
00:37:21,386 --> 00:37:25,010
country of the Enlightenment. We've had the Enlightenment. We are very

609
00:37:25,050 --> 00:37:28,338
rational people. We are very direct people, and so are our

610
00:37:28,394 --> 00:37:32,204
wines. German wines are usually very direct and clear. You

611
00:37:32,212 --> 00:37:35,756
know, even a Riesling that can be very, very beautiful and

612
00:37:35,828 --> 00:37:38,600
floral and herbaceous and

613
00:37:39,220 --> 00:37:43,036
fruity, it's still. There's a clarity to me that

614
00:37:43,108 --> 00:37:46,812
you're right. A Chardonnay from Burgundy doesn't have. You

615
00:37:46,836 --> 00:37:50,540
can't dissect things as much. It's true. There's much more this

616
00:37:50,660 --> 00:37:53,932
sort of mystique about it, and I think that's, you know, and that's what I

617
00:37:53,956 --> 00:37:57,276
want to say about. Terroir is, first of all, a human

618
00:37:57,348 --> 00:38:00,734
construction. It's because of human beings

619
00:38:00,862 --> 00:38:04,170
planting vines in a certain area and then

620
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:08,574
crafting wine in a certain way that we have terroir. Some people say,

621
00:38:08,582 --> 00:38:12,190
oh, no, it's just about the place in the grape, you know, the vine

622
00:38:12,270 --> 00:38:15,950
in the weather. And I'm like, no, a big part of terroir

623
00:38:16,030 --> 00:38:19,210
is the culture. Oh, I think

624
00:38:19,590 --> 00:38:22,810
I preach this all the time, and I've gotten 100%

625
00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:27,758
agreement on that from winemakers. And that is. Let's just take Nazi Germany

626
00:38:27,774 --> 00:38:31,466
for a second when they invaded Bort Bordeaux. If you don't

627
00:38:31,498 --> 00:38:35,322
think that the stories handed down from the chateau's owners about what

628
00:38:35,346 --> 00:38:39,050
they had to do during that process is not

629
00:38:39,090 --> 00:38:42,394
reflected in the wine somehow. I don't mean like a piece of tannin or

630
00:38:42,562 --> 00:38:45,750
flavor character, but the lessons learned through all.

631
00:38:46,770 --> 00:38:50,570
Through all history of a winemaker or winemaking family

632
00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:54,426
shows up in the bottle. It has to. Right? It's not about the terroir

633
00:38:54,458 --> 00:38:57,878
is not just the soil. But somebody just told me the other day this

634
00:38:57,934 --> 00:39:01,610
very well read. I think he's master of wine.

635
00:39:01,950 --> 00:39:05,510
That the word terroir actually is an opposite

636
00:39:05,590 --> 00:39:09,174
meaning in Old French. It's a. It's a just. It's actually

637
00:39:09,262 --> 00:39:12,822
the troubles of land and the troubles and the. The

638
00:39:12,846 --> 00:39:16,290
trash of what happened. I have to research that further

639
00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:19,062
to find out. But, you know, it's interesting the way you said this, and I

640
00:39:19,086 --> 00:39:22,828
learned this from a young winemaker in Armenia. She said,

641
00:39:22,934 --> 00:39:26,736
what other product can you take halfway around the world,

642
00:39:26,808 --> 00:39:30,272
put on the table and say, this is who we are. Yeah. And there is

643
00:39:30,296 --> 00:39:33,600
none. And I think that's very godly because

644
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:37,344
it's the only thing you can take. You can't take a semiconductor that way. You

645
00:39:37,352 --> 00:39:41,120
can't take a bottle of water, you can't take anything that's expressive of where

646
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,864
it's from than as a bottle of wine and plop it on the table and

647
00:39:44,872 --> 00:39:48,512
say, this is who we are and when we were. And in fact leads me

648
00:39:48,536 --> 00:39:51,900
to this other definition I came up with, which I get 100% agreement on, that

649
00:39:51,940 --> 00:39:55,280
is there are no bad vintages.

650
00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:58,748
Whether you're at the Mosel or the Rhine or

651
00:39:58,804 --> 00:40:02,428
Napa. If the wine is grown there

652
00:40:02,484 --> 00:40:06,300
and made honestly and prepared the way without trying to

653
00:40:06,340 --> 00:40:10,060
influence it by the winemaker and it reflects that moment

654
00:40:10,220 --> 00:40:14,044
in that place, then it can't be a bad vintage. It's a different vintage. It

655
00:40:14,052 --> 00:40:17,376
might taste different than the previous vintage. You may not like it as much, but

656
00:40:17,508 --> 00:40:20,740
it's an honest wine representing what, what it is.

657
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,680
Maybe this is what you just said, the

658
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:28,456
impasse in the direction of the consumerism of wine right now because it's

659
00:40:28,488 --> 00:40:31,944
in a, it's in a tailspin. Right? Nobody and, and a lot of people are

660
00:40:31,952 --> 00:40:35,540
talking about the guys that are doing the point systems. They're not as

661
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,536
prevalent, not relevant today than they used to be.

662
00:40:40,608 --> 00:40:44,168
No, it's not like Parker when he started this whole thing. And,

663
00:40:44,224 --> 00:40:47,882
and the consumers are being barraged with social networking and

664
00:40:47,906 --> 00:40:51,114
different beverages like White Claw and those different things. And maybe

665
00:40:51,162 --> 00:40:54,270
your approach, maybe your conversation

666
00:40:55,010 --> 00:40:58,810
is the most relevant conversation to this. Well, I think

667
00:40:58,930 --> 00:41:02,490
it's one aspect. I think the spiritual dimension of wine, which

668
00:41:02,530 --> 00:41:05,962
ties very closely into the cultural dimension, needs to be

669
00:41:05,986 --> 00:41:09,790
recovered. You're right. We have sucked it into this consumerist

670
00:41:10,450 --> 00:41:14,154
mentality. Were these expert, you know, the masters of

671
00:41:14,162 --> 00:41:17,838
wine in the sommeliers, they have been socialized into talking about

672
00:41:17,894 --> 00:41:21,150
wine in a certain way. And it's very top down, it's very

673
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:24,974
rational, it's not accessible to the ordinary person,

674
00:41:25,142 --> 00:41:28,654
and it negates that. Each

675
00:41:28,742 --> 00:41:31,790
person will experience a wine differently because of the

676
00:41:31,830 --> 00:41:35,502
flavor memories that I have stored up personally because of

677
00:41:35,526 --> 00:41:38,398
my life experience, and then the other

678
00:41:38,454 --> 00:41:42,014
comprehensive memories that I have

679
00:41:42,102 --> 00:41:45,902
because of my unique life. And so the same person that

680
00:41:45,926 --> 00:41:49,690
I share the wine with, that's not talked about at all because most people

681
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:53,598
don't really engage with the neurosciences and they don't

682
00:41:53,614 --> 00:41:57,358
engage with understanding the real cultural meaning. But

683
00:41:57,414 --> 00:42:01,262
Andrew Jefford, I like him a lot. He has, he

684
00:42:01,286 --> 00:42:04,814
has really called attention to it and he's one of the wine

685
00:42:04,862 --> 00:42:08,254
writers who really tries to understand the cultural

686
00:42:08,302 --> 00:42:11,396
dimension and embeds it a lot more into

687
00:42:11,468 --> 00:42:15,124
stories now. He's also the son of a Anglican priest.

688
00:42:15,172 --> 00:42:18,740
He's Not a, he's not a believer. However, he has a

689
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:22,180
spirituality about him, despite him saying he's an atheist.

690
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:25,780
Yeah, Transfers his spirituality into the

691
00:42:25,820 --> 00:42:29,460
philosophy of wine. And I think we've. You can

692
00:42:29,500 --> 00:42:33,060
only do this consumerist stuff for so long

693
00:42:33,180 --> 00:42:36,922
and you're turning people off because it's not accessible to the

694
00:42:36,946 --> 00:42:40,778
ordinary person. Most people can't afford expensive wines.

695
00:42:40,954 --> 00:42:44,474
And now we have this sort of, I call it the

696
00:42:44,562 --> 00:42:48,170
medical temperance movement saying, you know, no amount of alcohol is

697
00:42:48,210 --> 00:42:52,026
safe. Well, when you look at the studies, they don't differentiate

698
00:42:52,138 --> 00:42:55,610
most of the time between hard liquor,

699
00:42:55,770 --> 00:42:59,578
beer and wine. Very few people, very,

700
00:42:59,634 --> 00:43:02,978
very few studies focus on wine. And if they do, they don't

701
00:43:02,994 --> 00:43:06,562
differentiate between mass produced wine where a lot

702
00:43:06,586 --> 00:43:09,970
of herbicides and pesticides are used and a lot of

703
00:43:10,010 --> 00:43:13,330
additives given into the wine from

704
00:43:13,370 --> 00:43:16,834
organic or biodynamic wines. So I think

705
00:43:17,002 --> 00:43:20,722
all of those things are just such sweeping statements and I think we need

706
00:43:20,746 --> 00:43:24,402
to take a step back and again come back to the regional. You

707
00:43:24,426 --> 00:43:28,274
know, I'm a huge fan of the slow food movement and farm to the table

708
00:43:28,322 --> 00:43:32,092
movement. Go local. If you live close to a

709
00:43:32,116 --> 00:43:35,356
wine region, try to be local and eat

710
00:43:35,388 --> 00:43:39,132
locally grown foods that are a lot more flavorsome. And

711
00:43:39,156 --> 00:43:42,828
the same is true for wine. Of course, the US wine world

712
00:43:42,884 --> 00:43:46,700
is so young that to get well crafted wine is still

713
00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:50,120
very expensive. You know, you said something interesting because

714
00:43:51,780 --> 00:43:55,452
that's another conversation we have organic, biodynamic. Well, the

715
00:43:55,476 --> 00:43:58,972
monks of the 12th century, Burgundians, they were organic. In fact, they were organic for

716
00:43:58,996 --> 00:44:02,776
a long time. You know, it wasn't really till modern times, let's say the 40s,

717
00:44:02,968 --> 00:44:06,728
when they started doing that. So, you know, I, it never ceases to amaze

718
00:44:06,744 --> 00:44:10,024
me when people walk in, they did walk in here and say, well, organic and

719
00:44:10,032 --> 00:44:13,112
this. And then they would use that as an excuse as to why the wine

720
00:44:13,176 --> 00:44:16,568
had funky character. I'm like, you know, that's not right

721
00:44:16,624 --> 00:44:20,184
because, or wine was always organic. But that's not why we're here.

722
00:44:20,352 --> 00:44:24,120
It's an interesting concept. You just came up with the conversation around

723
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,602
a glass of wine. Like tonight, I mean, I'm going to go home and

724
00:44:27,626 --> 00:44:31,442
I'm craving right now at Burgundy because of our conversation. But who knows, that might

725
00:44:31,466 --> 00:44:34,898
change by the time I get home. And that's what I'm going to open

726
00:44:35,034 --> 00:44:38,162
and we'll have a conversation. My son in law, the one that just graduated from

727
00:44:38,186 --> 00:44:41,670
Fuller, will have, he'll have a glass and we'll have a conversation.

728
00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:45,890
And the conversation is not going to be this

729
00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:49,522
got 95 points or this is, you know,

730
00:44:49,546 --> 00:44:53,346
the, the winemaker decided not to put a cap on it because he wants

731
00:44:53,378 --> 00:44:56,854
to be sustainable or she wants to be sustainable or we're using this, we're not

732
00:44:56,862 --> 00:45:00,646
going to talk about that stuff. And I'm thinking that's the narrative

733
00:45:00,678 --> 00:45:03,878
is changing, it needs to change. And I think it needs to change in your

734
00:45:03,934 --> 00:45:06,210
direction because the other

735
00:45:07,230 --> 00:45:10,790
concept that's being thrown around ad nauseam on the web

736
00:45:10,870 --> 00:45:14,662
and in social is innovation in our industry and what are

737
00:45:14,686 --> 00:45:17,222
we going to do? And should we put it in cans and tetra packs and

738
00:45:17,246 --> 00:45:20,950
all those different things? I'm like, no, we don't need to do that

739
00:45:21,070 --> 00:45:24,582
because it's never going to change. It's at least 12,000 years old that we

740
00:45:24,606 --> 00:45:28,358
know. We just need to change the narrative. What we're

741
00:45:28,374 --> 00:45:31,734
talking about, why we're talking about it. I think that's so right. I think we

742
00:45:31,742 --> 00:45:35,526
need to change the narrative and we need to see wine.

743
00:45:35,638 --> 00:45:38,758
Whether you are a believer or not, it's a gift to humanity and it's meant

744
00:45:38,774 --> 00:45:42,566
for everyone. And everyone has the capacity to learn

745
00:45:42,598 --> 00:45:46,390
to enjoy wine. We need to come to our senses. You know, I mean the

746
00:45:46,430 --> 00:45:50,022
most of the food here in the US is either overly salty or

747
00:45:50,046 --> 00:45:53,302
spiced overly too much

748
00:45:53,326 --> 00:45:57,158
sugar. So our taste buds need to heal and

749
00:45:57,214 --> 00:46:01,062
become desensitized towards the bounty not

750
00:46:01,086 --> 00:46:04,742
only in wine, but look at fruit and vegetable. If you grow your

751
00:46:04,766 --> 00:46:08,182
own fruit or I'm just making a little pot roast and I

752
00:46:08,286 --> 00:46:11,958
added some of my own rosemary and

753
00:46:12,014 --> 00:46:15,734
some thyme. And these herbs are just gorgeous

754
00:46:15,782 --> 00:46:19,288
and when you rub them and smell them, there is such bounty

755
00:46:19,384 --> 00:46:23,112
of, of, of smell and taste. And I think we need

756
00:46:23,136 --> 00:46:26,760
to in general, we come to our senses again

757
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,264
and stop using, you know, eating all of that processed

758
00:46:30,312 --> 00:46:34,072
food and go back to what naturally grows in your region

759
00:46:34,256 --> 00:46:37,736
and then you know, with simple ingredients allow those

760
00:46:37,808 --> 00:46:41,612
subtle flavors to satisfy you. You know,

761
00:46:41,626 --> 00:46:44,842
it's really interesting because my, my son in law that wanted the priest in New

762
00:46:44,866 --> 00:46:47,722
York, they live in a very, very rural town called

763
00:46:47,746 --> 00:46:51,002
Potsdam and he's the head of the Trinity Church

764
00:46:51,066 --> 00:46:54,310
there. And my daughter is a,

765
00:46:54,770 --> 00:46:56,842
I'm not going to say it because I'll get in trouble with my friends, but

766
00:46:56,866 --> 00:47:00,522
she's, she was, she worked at a Michelin star restaurant.

767
00:47:00,586 --> 00:47:03,750
She was one of the head bakers there. She was the head baker there.

768
00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:07,978
Closed because of COVID But they have no choice

769
00:47:08,074 --> 00:47:11,852
really in this rural part of, of New York to go

770
00:47:11,876 --> 00:47:15,660
to the farm and buy vegetables, to go

771
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:19,500
to the farm and get their pork and their beef to

772
00:47:19,540 --> 00:47:23,292
go to the orchard and pick their apples. Their eggs have a

773
00:47:23,316 --> 00:47:27,020
laid on date, you know, that's how fresh they are. And

774
00:47:27,140 --> 00:47:30,540
it's a whole different mentality and that's a tough one for

775
00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:34,300
Americans. Despite the fact America went through a food

776
00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:37,916
renaissance in the 80s and the farm to table idea came supposedly

777
00:47:37,948 --> 00:47:40,460
from. From France,

778
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,768
it's still mired in horrible food and.

779
00:47:45,824 --> 00:47:49,528
Yeah. Butchered fields and contaminated

780
00:47:49,624 --> 00:47:52,820
wheat and all of that. Yeah. How do we, how do we.

781
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,872
Maybe more of your videos, maybe more of this conversation. Yeah. Is

782
00:47:56,896 --> 00:48:00,744
gonna. Is what we need to do. But food in the Bible with wine,

783
00:48:00,792 --> 00:48:03,912
how does, how is that represented by. By the

784
00:48:03,936 --> 00:48:07,654
writers. How does the gospels talk

785
00:48:07,662 --> 00:48:11,014
about. Yeah, I think and Thomas Jefferson also understood

786
00:48:11,062 --> 00:48:14,598
this. Agriculture is our most precious and

787
00:48:14,654 --> 00:48:18,198
most important vocation from God. And we have given

788
00:48:18,254 --> 00:48:21,638
agriculture over to corporate organizations that mass

789
00:48:21,694 --> 00:48:25,526
produce, you know, corn and soy and grain. They dump

790
00:48:25,558 --> 00:48:29,350
a lot of fertilizers and pesticides on our soil. Our

791
00:48:29,390 --> 00:48:33,192
soil is dead, it's dying. And it's not a kind

792
00:48:33,216 --> 00:48:36,664
of aquaculture that's sustainable. We need to go back

793
00:48:36,752 --> 00:48:40,552
to regenerative aquaculture that helps heal the

794
00:48:40,576 --> 00:48:44,168
soil. That way you get more nutrients back into

795
00:48:44,224 --> 00:48:47,368
our food. That way we can help people become

796
00:48:47,424 --> 00:48:50,552
healthier. And I think that farm to the table

797
00:48:50,616 --> 00:48:53,800
movement needs to continue. And you know, we as

798
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,602
consumers have power. We can choose

799
00:48:57,666 --> 00:49:01,282
how we live. For example, my husband and I. My

800
00:49:01,306 --> 00:49:05,026
husband has had cancer twice and so we don't

801
00:49:05,058 --> 00:49:08,370
go out to eat a lot. I go to the farmer's market on

802
00:49:08,410 --> 00:49:12,130
Saturday. That's my pilgrimage. Every week I go on

803
00:49:12,170 --> 00:49:15,554
a pilgrimage. And the pilgrimage, that's a great term for that. It's a great

804
00:49:15,722 --> 00:49:19,554
farmer's. I'm going to the promised land. That's where I go. And I go to

805
00:49:19,562 --> 00:49:23,320
my organic farmer. I buy what's in season and

806
00:49:24,020 --> 00:49:27,772
I have this pot roast in the oven. We have some

807
00:49:27,796 --> 00:49:31,036
guests come tonight and all the ingredients, the root

808
00:49:31,068 --> 00:49:34,908
vegetables, everything is locally grown. The pot roast is

809
00:49:34,964 --> 00:49:38,080
from a regenerative farmer in Alabama.

810
00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:44,140
My husband and I work full time, but I

811
00:49:44,180 --> 00:49:47,880
spend just over an hour throwing everything together into the pot.

812
00:49:48,190 --> 00:49:51,570
And I think we need to do

813
00:49:51,870 --> 00:49:55,638
repentance. And repentance literally means we need to

814
00:49:55,694 --> 00:49:59,462
change the way we think. Metanoeo means coming after your

815
00:49:59,486 --> 00:50:03,110
thought life. We need to stop living in a way that destroys our

816
00:50:03,150 --> 00:50:06,838
earth, that destroys our health. And we need to

817
00:50:06,974 --> 00:50:10,758
say food is important. The table is important in

818
00:50:10,814 --> 00:50:14,346
supporting our local farmers who work so hard

819
00:50:14,478 --> 00:50:18,306
to grow really healthy and Nutritious food. That's

820
00:50:18,338 --> 00:50:21,710
if we could have a revival of

821
00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:25,602
understanding that agriculture is one of our highest

822
00:50:25,666 --> 00:50:29,330
vocations. You know, we think that the lawyers and the

823
00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:33,186
doctors and, you know, all these people with the big salaries are the heroes. They're

824
00:50:33,218 --> 00:50:36,690
not. Our farmers are our heroes because they heal the

825
00:50:36,730 --> 00:50:40,550
soil and they and their food heal our bodies.

826
00:50:42,580 --> 00:50:45,964
Is that the premise behind the seven year wait? You know, I think the Bible

827
00:50:46,012 --> 00:50:49,820
talks about, you know, the seventh year of a crop or

828
00:50:49,860 --> 00:50:53,644
of a farm. It rests. Yeah, yeah. Let it rest

829
00:50:53,732 --> 00:50:57,228
for all of creation, but also let the

830
00:50:57,364 --> 00:51:01,020
soil recover and plant something, you know, not

831
00:51:01,060 --> 00:51:04,200
plant something for a year. Absolutely. But in general.

832
00:51:05,060 --> 00:51:08,092
Sorry to interrupt you. I wonder why no one. Like there's a book called the

833
00:51:08,116 --> 00:51:11,040
Third Plate. Dan Barger,

834
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,100
anyway, the chef from Blue Hill Farms in New York,

835
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:19,472
you know, he does. He lays out the same argument you're talking about, but

836
00:51:19,496 --> 00:51:23,232
never brings up the biblical part of this. And it really

837
00:51:23,256 --> 00:51:26,640
is the root of all of it, is it not? Absolutely. The

838
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,760
vision that we get for living a Christian life is

839
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,472
agrarian. In the culture that Jesus

840
00:51:33,536 --> 00:51:37,210
lived in and ministered was agrarian. And

841
00:51:37,330 --> 00:51:41,098
to hand over our food system to

842
00:51:41,154 --> 00:51:44,970
corporate organizations whose primary goal is profit is

843
00:51:45,010 --> 00:51:48,826
not a good idea. And we can see that in how sick Americans

844
00:51:48,858 --> 00:51:52,538
are. Do you know that There are over 50 million people who have an

845
00:51:52,594 --> 00:51:55,674
autoimmune disease, not to talk about cancer,

846
00:51:55,802 --> 00:51:59,578
cardiovascular disease, diabetes too? We need

847
00:51:59,634 --> 00:52:03,290
to change something. And Christians have

848
00:52:03,330 --> 00:52:06,906
always been called to be prophetic and show the world

849
00:52:07,058 --> 00:52:10,778
how to live and how to blossom on this good earth that God has given

850
00:52:10,834 --> 00:52:14,650
us. And I feel like we as Christians should take a lead

851
00:52:14,770 --> 00:52:18,538
role. Christians should become farmers. Christians should

852
00:52:18,674 --> 00:52:22,250
become middlers. Christians should start

853
00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:26,074
learning about nutrition and feeding the families and

854
00:52:26,082 --> 00:52:29,716
their communities well and serve where our

855
00:52:29,868 --> 00:52:33,620
society is very broken. I think that is

856
00:52:33,660 --> 00:52:37,492
an incredible way to leave this conversation, only to know that

857
00:52:37,516 --> 00:52:41,268
we're going to do it again because we're already at almost an hour and

858
00:52:41,324 --> 00:52:44,516
you have guests coming, so we got to make sure the pot roast is properly

859
00:52:44,548 --> 00:52:48,372
cooked. But what a fascinating conversation and enlightening conversation. It

860
00:52:48,396 --> 00:52:51,972
gives me so much inspiration for what I do.

861
00:52:52,156 --> 00:52:55,732
And now I have a whole new path of conversation to have because

862
00:52:55,756 --> 00:52:59,378
of. Of your study. And it's never going to end, I don't

863
00:52:59,394 --> 00:53:03,202
think. No. And I think this is what I am really hoping

864
00:53:03,346 --> 00:53:07,010
is to find conversation partners who are willing to take

865
00:53:07,050 --> 00:53:10,754
that into our society. We need to have a nationwide conversation

866
00:53:10,802 --> 00:53:14,370
about wine and about food and how to

867
00:53:14,410 --> 00:53:18,258
heal together, both in terms of our relationship with alcohol. But

868
00:53:18,314 --> 00:53:21,544
Also in relation to our foods, because both

869
00:53:21,682 --> 00:53:25,500
errors have been broken, and it's time to reclaim

870
00:53:25,580 --> 00:53:29,292
them as gifts from God and understand how they are to

871
00:53:29,316 --> 00:53:33,040
nourish us so that we can not only survive, but flourish.

872
00:53:33,860 --> 00:53:37,120
Inspiring. Fascinating. And bravo

873
00:53:37,540 --> 00:53:40,600
for taking this on and making it,

874
00:53:41,140 --> 00:53:44,860
putting in terms that everyone will be able to understand and

875
00:53:44,980 --> 00:53:48,790
reflect on, despite the whatever level of Bible

876
00:53:48,870 --> 00:53:52,422
knowledge they have. Yeah, everybody knows, you

877
00:53:52,446 --> 00:53:56,118
know, the inspiration behind the Armenians part of this. And I,

878
00:53:56,174 --> 00:53:59,622
like I said, I'm working on a TV show, but, you

879
00:53:59,646 --> 00:54:03,494
know, if Noah landed in Ararat and he planted the

880
00:54:03,502 --> 00:54:07,302
vineyard, I mean, it very well could be that Adeni, the grape is, you

881
00:54:07,326 --> 00:54:10,182
know, the oldest grape in the world. But I guess that DNA could tell us

882
00:54:10,206 --> 00:54:14,024
this. But, you know, there's this whole romantic fascination that, you know, the

883
00:54:14,032 --> 00:54:17,544
Armenian grape is the beginning of this industry.

884
00:54:17,632 --> 00:54:21,352
But whatever, I hope we can do it again. Yeah, I would love to. I

885
00:54:21,376 --> 00:54:25,016
think it's a conversation that needs to grow. And with

886
00:54:25,088 --> 00:54:28,808
all of that I've written, but especially Wine in the Word, people need

887
00:54:28,864 --> 00:54:32,664
no understanding of previous understanding of the Bible or of wine.

888
00:54:32,712 --> 00:54:35,912
You can just come and learn, and you don't need to be

889
00:54:35,936 --> 00:54:39,400
intimidated, and you can learn on your own terms, and it's a

890
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,290
wonderful world to enter. The book, the one

891
00:54:43,330 --> 00:54:46,922
book was called Spirituality of

892
00:54:47,106 --> 00:54:50,602
Wine. That's my first book, the Spirituality of Wine.

893
00:54:50,746 --> 00:54:54,266
Then I wrote an autobiographical book called the Soul of Wine.

894
00:54:54,378 --> 00:54:58,090
And then Cup Overflowing was really for the church in North America,

895
00:54:58,170 --> 00:55:01,962
where I talk about the particular history with alcohol. I interview a lot

896
00:55:01,986 --> 00:55:05,402
of people who struggle with

897
00:55:05,506 --> 00:55:09,242
alcohol abuse or how to integrate it, and

898
00:55:09,266 --> 00:55:12,896
then showing a way forward. And then we just created

899
00:55:12,928 --> 00:55:16,176
this video series with a study guide called

900
00:55:16,328 --> 00:55:19,840
Wine in the Word to make it more accessible and to help

901
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,616
people really think through a biblical understanding of wine,

902
00:55:23,648 --> 00:55:27,360
but also how to develop the wisdom to integrate it

903
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,168
into your life so that you can flourish and so that your children

904
00:55:31,304 --> 00:55:35,008
and grandchildren will understand what it means to

905
00:55:35,064 --> 00:55:38,576
embrace this essence, a gift, and how to develop a healthy

906
00:55:38,608 --> 00:55:42,320
relationship with it. We will pass the word on. And count

907
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,312
me in for any help you need from my side of things as far as

908
00:55:45,336 --> 00:55:49,104
media. And I did this for 35 years,

909
00:55:49,192 --> 00:55:52,768
and you answered a lot of questions for me after all this time and gave

910
00:55:52,784 --> 00:55:56,224
me some new thoughts to bring to the table to stimulate

911
00:55:56,272 --> 00:56:00,000
conversation with people. So thank you again and good luck tonight with

912
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,648
your tot roast. I hope it turns out all right. Cheers.

913
00:56:03,824 --> 00:56:04,160
Cheers.