The Power of Emotional Storytelling in Wine with Madeline Puckette of Wine Folly

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Purchasing wine is an emotional experience and

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controlling people's emotions is more of the realm that

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you're going into, and that's storytelling. So I would say that

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I think if you are trying to pull a lever,

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pull a heartstring in someone, I think storytelling

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is. It sounds almost religious to be preaching

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storytelling. I think at the end of the day, that's what you want

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to do. At the end of the day is enjoy a great story.

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And if your bottle is a story you can look

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forward to, that's actually the most beautiful thing. Sit

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back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul Kay. Hey, welcome to Wine

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Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California

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about to have a conversation with the famed co founder of Wine Folly,

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Madeline Puckett. Depending on how you say it. Hey, I want to

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just introduce something really quick along the road of this wine

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tasting and. And wine business. I've stumbled across so many

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aspiring stories of immigration to the US that I start

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a new podcast. The first release is coming out in a few days and that

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is called the Song of America, which is the title of a book by man

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named George Mardi in one of the famed restaurant tours of San Francisco

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in the 50s. I borrowed his name, of course, with the

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permission of his family to start the show and start talking about some of

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these inspirational stories of people that have come to America with a

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dream and accomplished that dream, whether financial, political, social, or

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whatever your measure of success is. So have a listen to that coming out. But

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not why we are here. Here to talk to Madeline. How are you this

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morning? I'm great. Yeah. You know, I. Here's the

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first question I wrote on my, my iPad here. Who are you?

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Who. No, and I say that, I said

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it's so tongue in cheek because you. Wine Folly, which is

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incredible name for a wine education site,

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started in 2011, you just kind of burst onto the scene.

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Yeah, I kind of did. I. I got. I'd become a certified sommelier

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at that point. I was working in restaurants and I felt like there was a

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difference between my level of knowledge and the customer's level of knowledge. And I was

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like, what? It. There was more information on the Internet

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that was fun to look up because wine is fun.

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I think more people would like wine and more people would know how to

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ask for what they want. And so that's why we started Wine Folly

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was as an adventure into wine. You know,

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let's dig right into that subject because it's

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become, in my opinion, pertinent and Controversial because

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I think it's always been that way. In fact, this patch right here,

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which is from the 70s, it's called Les Amid Event. As you would know, it

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means the Friends of Wine. And it was a wine education

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group throughout the country, 150 chapters. And if

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you owned a wine shop or a restaurant, you could join it and start your

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chapter. This is my father's chapter. And it was

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exactly that, but it was, it was an experiential version of that, where

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you got the dinner for dinner, you got together and heard Robert Mondavi speak.

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So I think that this idea of wine education is critical for the

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ongoing support of our industry.

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I couldn't agree more. And I think what

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happened was when I was starting to create this content

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and write about wine and create visual

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infographics and maps and that kind of a thing,

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we hadn't really wine writing

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or wine communication was, was, was a writ. It was the

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written word. It was in a book, it was in a magazine. It was.

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There were some, there was actually some good wine blogs around at the

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time, but they weren't communicating in a way that was

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relevant to the everyday person. Like,

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what could you find a trader? What. Like what could you find at Trader Joe's

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or Safeway that is

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palatable and delicious and help me find the wine that I'm looking

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for? And so I kind of started writing about

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the things that were in everyone's sort of

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purview, so they had some kind of a way to get into

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wine. And I, as a graphic designer, I have a

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degree in fine art and actually music technology,

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so time based editing and that kind of a thing. And I

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was starting, I wasn't really a great writer,

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not at the time. And I was thinking,

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well, I know how to draw and I can make visual,

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informational, graphical things

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and help people get into wine. So I launched a few infographics and

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one we posted up on Facebook and by

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the second day we had figured out where we would get it printed

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and we had a little ebay link to sell it as a poster because I

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had made it poster shaped basically. And that was

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the start of, from the brand, which had started as

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this like simple, fun thing to like, oh my goodness, people are actually

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willing to pay for this fun

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educational content. And that completely transformed what we

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were intending the business to be. So do you think

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that that enthusiasm in general

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has grown or it's sort of relative to the

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generations and we're all talking about millennials and Gen Z's and whatever letter

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we're on that, you know, there's a whole different propensity

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towards fine wine and there's white claw and also

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nice things out there on the marketplace and. But I'm

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wondering, you see a relative increase in people

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that are, want to learn, they want to

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understand that, want at least what, have a better experience when they go to a

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restaurant, look at a menu. So I would call, I would classify myself

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as a millennial elder. Maybe

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I'm a comedian, but that's, that was my

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generation. Essentially we're the millennial group. So we were the people who were putting

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all the things online. They were starting to do things online, we were

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living online. And the group beyond the

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group passed me the Z's, the lennials, Gen Z, whatever you want to call

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them. These folks have grown up with the Internet

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as always in the background. We were sort of this

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transitional generation that had phones that you would pick up and call

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people. And then we learned how to use the Internet. And the early adopters, I

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was part of the early adopter group. I super nerded out about

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computers and technology and stuff because my dad was, he was an

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engineer. And this, this group sort

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of built the foundation of the Internet and the Z's came and they

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lived in it. This was their home. There wasn't a world without

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it. And so they use the Internet in a very different way

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and they use it as a connecting tool, as a

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discovery tool. And they, they

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don't. Especially now with AI, there's not a need

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to think like a computer in order to find what you're looking

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for. You can just have a thought and then answers or stuff

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will fly your way, options will come your way and it's this wealth

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of over information actually. So you kind of try

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to find the groups that you love and are interested in

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or that speak to you in a way that you can connect to. And so

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social media networks were really the rise after the

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basic Internet, the social media networks and the.

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I had, I had the opportunity to hang out with a group of Gen

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Z people speaking at a wine conference, being frustrated

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with the amount of, of over

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explaining and too much. And it

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reminded me of the same kind of feelings that I felt when I was

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getting into wine that, oh, we can't talk about sweetness because

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it's, it's, it's not something that's determined,

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deterministic in the wine. A Malbec isn't dry. It depends

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on what the winemaker does, you know. Yeah, right.

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So, so now I'm trying to go, well, is it Sweet or is it dry?

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I just want to buy a dry Malbec. How do I do that? And that's

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the kind of questions we're starting to see, again, the kinds

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of sort of basic wine understanding, like how many

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calories does a glass of Sauvignon Blanc have

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in it? And that's an important question when you're young and

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you're concerned about, you know, getting a hot

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date and having a good time out there in the world. Don't sell us

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old guys short. You know, we're looking for no kidding.

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You know, maybe you want a, a Sauvignon Blanc, then

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perhaps dried Sauvignon Blanc, you know, with just a

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90 calories, you know, a glass, you know, if it's, if it's

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dry. So I would say that these onboarding

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questions are just as important, if not more important,

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and to, to take them seriously and legitimately,

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because the one thing these have over the millennials is

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they're smart. Well, millennials are smart, too, but they

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really know how to seek information, and they have a good sense of what

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bad information is. So generally speaking, because they've grown up

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with a world of fake news, surrounded by fake news in every, you

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know, way, shape, or form. So they really want to get to the bottom

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of something, and they want a good summary of, of what that means, and they're

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trying to find their way into wine. At least this is

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my opinion. And I think brands that are connecting to

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the Z's are focusing on

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the hero's story. There's maybe an outstanding

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winemaker that's able to connect, you know, of any age, right.

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That is authentic in who they are, and that is a strong

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connection piece for someone who's just getting into wine right

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now. You know, that's very interesting

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because in my opinion, that really hasn't changed anything.

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Certainly the delivery of the information has changed radically. And this is more

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accessible. And I use AI every day to ask questions. So

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you're right. The baseline of where we get information from. And you know,

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what I had to use now, I had a computer that, that had

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a operating system called cpm. Okay? It predates

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dos and it still works. But the point is, you

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know, the more that baseline grows and that your access to information

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grows and generationally, then you can process more

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and deal with more. And it's, it's, you know, rather voluminous at this stage.

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But it doesn't seem to change the narrative that I'm seeking

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some experience, some story. I want to understand wine.

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And because there's this consumption drop right now and there's

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this, you know, non alk awareness and low alk

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and you know, man, we went to the fancy food show at

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Vegas last year and one of the prevailing themes for

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beverages was non alk. And that like most of it was undrinkable. But it

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is a, it is a blip I think in the radar of

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consumption. But yet what you said is right on it. But it hasn't

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really changed this idea that fine wine, the story of wine is

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what we're seeking, it's just the delivery of it. And so I'm

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wondering because of this consumption drop if you think that

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there's a percentage less of people in the generation,

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Gen Z's or whatever generations are coming up in

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the appreciation of it or they're going to come around one of these days to

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this idea. I, I, to be

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where the people are is

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maybe the number one thing to do

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is to be where those conversations are

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happening, whether it's on TikTok or

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Instagram, to be present there and

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to be part of that community I think is very important

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because like you said it's, it's not, nothing's changed

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really foundationally nothing's changed. It's just the delivery method

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that has changed and, and also the

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expectation of availability. I can go

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and I think there's this, this model now

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where I can't go to the store and find what I'm looking

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for. I have to find it online now because

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it's so difficult to just, you can't just walk out the door and go find

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the thing. So you have this audience that has

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a built in expectation that DTC is how they get

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what they really want, which is very powerful for brands that

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build direct to consumer models. And so that I think

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that is maybe the, like you said,

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it's the same story always. We need some onboarding

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mechanisms. We need to answer these questions. We need to help people find what

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they love and we need to love all the things that they love.

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I hear a lot of, you know, in the fine wine

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market this looking to what's

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popular and then everything else is garbage.

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Right? And that's not true. There is excellent

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examples of sweet wines that are aged in

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Solaris for nearly 100 years, right? And

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you can buy them DTC for

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around $40 a bottle, which is obscene.

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Like that is an obscene value when you think of the

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work and the time that went into producing this exceptional wine

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with this exceptional story. So those stories

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are still valuable and valid

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and I think we're going to find that potentially future

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generations are gonna have a palate shift. Right.

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They've grown up accessing

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kombucha and absolutely sugar

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free, like sparkling flavored sparkling waters.

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So they've grown up with different things as

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part of their purview than my generation. And

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your generation, like a kombucha would be like, oh, this is

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bad. I've had biodynamic wine. It tastes like

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kombucha. Well, there you go. Who

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do you think it's for? Well, I think I, I think that's the,

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the again, it's not a novel thing anymore. Every generation's had

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that entree into the industry. My dad, you know, stopped at Sutter

236
00:14:33,408 --> 00:14:36,832
home in 1974 and talked to Bob Trincaro and he didn't know what to do

237
00:14:36,856 --> 00:14:40,624
with this, you know, a shiner of, of white, of pink wine. And

238
00:14:40,632 --> 00:14:44,112
so I think every generation's had that. My dad's wine shop had Bartles and James

239
00:14:44,176 --> 00:14:47,994
and all those kinds of coolers. But it's interesting that

240
00:14:48,002 --> 00:14:51,210
you said about the DTC side because I just had an interesting conversation this morning

241
00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:54,910
with the woman in Ireland who's working on European dtc.

242
00:14:55,570 --> 00:14:59,210
And when, when we were running the shop and wasn't only two years

243
00:14:59,250 --> 00:15:02,842
ago, and we had, we had Amazon and we had, I had

244
00:15:02,866 --> 00:15:06,490
put all this time and effort to pump my whole entire inventory, you know,

245
00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:10,250
Grand Cru, Burgundies, Bordeaux Classified Growth. And all

246
00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:13,070
they bought for me on Amazon was Stella Rosa.

247
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:17,884
And, and that's, and that's kind of interesting because it's. What you're saying, it's

248
00:15:17,932 --> 00:15:20,844
kind of moving away from that because they got, you can't go to the store

249
00:15:20,892 --> 00:15:24,364
these days unless you have a fine wine shop in your neighborhood and find something

250
00:15:24,452 --> 00:15:28,268
interesting. And so now they're looking online finally

251
00:15:28,364 --> 00:15:31,580
to find interesting wines that they can share and tell a story

252
00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:35,436
about. But not that long ago, it was the type of buyer

253
00:15:35,468 --> 00:15:38,400
on Amazon that knew what they wanted.

254
00:15:39,060 --> 00:15:42,890
They were willing to pay me 30% more than what they could get it

255
00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:46,430
at Target for because it was convenient.

256
00:15:47,010 --> 00:15:50,762
And what you're saying now is we're going to, we can find Solaris style, you

257
00:15:50,786 --> 00:15:54,570
know, Maderas and things online and know what they are

258
00:15:54,690 --> 00:15:57,722
and tell that story. Yeah, you can use that as an

259
00:15:57,746 --> 00:16:01,450
opportunity. Suddenly you're suddenly just making the

260
00:16:01,490 --> 00:16:05,190
wine and giving it to your distributor is not enough.

261
00:16:05,490 --> 00:16:08,884
The product has to have this deep story

262
00:16:08,972 --> 00:16:12,772
associated to it in order to be considered great. We're used to

263
00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:16,612
looking at an incredible amount of metadata, like when you

264
00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:20,404
look up a car, you're like, well, what's it, 60, 0 to 60?

265
00:16:20,492 --> 00:16:23,828
Like that's the thing. How Earth powers does it have?

266
00:16:23,964 --> 00:16:27,652
What's the, you know, like all the little details? We are

267
00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:31,284
like meta information people. There's an expectation that that's

268
00:16:31,332 --> 00:16:34,870
there foundationally. And so when your wine

269
00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:38,358
goes to market, it needs to come with it. All this

270
00:16:38,414 --> 00:16:41,974
media, like maybe even a video with the winemaker talking

271
00:16:42,022 --> 00:16:45,718
about what that vintage was like this year and what they

272
00:16:45,774 --> 00:16:49,302
was like making the wine. And then that gets shared

273
00:16:49,366 --> 00:16:53,014
out into the world whether it's on Instagram or on TikTok

274
00:16:53,062 --> 00:16:56,822
or whatever. But that's your story. And you have just like a

275
00:16:56,846 --> 00:17:00,566
winery has to continue to tell their story. Every single

276
00:17:00,598 --> 00:17:04,416
time someone walks in to the wine,

277
00:17:04,528 --> 00:17:08,208
their, their winery. That story is the same story

278
00:17:08,264 --> 00:17:11,888
that needs to get told continually to the, an online,

279
00:17:12,024 --> 00:17:15,584
to a digital first audience. And it's funny

280
00:17:15,632 --> 00:17:19,312
because I think I've been saying this for at least a

281
00:17:19,336 --> 00:17:23,168
decade and it's only now

282
00:17:23,224 --> 00:17:26,528
starting to hit different because of this

283
00:17:26,584 --> 00:17:30,196
downturn in the sales. But the downturn of

284
00:17:30,268 --> 00:17:33,556
sales that we've seen is predominantly high

285
00:17:33,628 --> 00:17:37,412
volume wines. It's not, it's, it's

286
00:17:37,476 --> 00:17:40,964
not the wines that we're thinking about. These independent

287
00:17:41,012 --> 00:17:44,772
producers, independent producers are definitely having a difficult time right now. And I want

288
00:17:44,796 --> 00:17:47,680
to respect that. That's a legitimate issue.

289
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:51,892
But it's because this like large volume market

290
00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:55,694
of, of of basic grocery

291
00:17:55,742 --> 00:17:59,358
store wine is not getting sold. We have like xx

292
00:17:59,454 --> 00:18:03,150
inventory and that kind of a thing. I think that a

293
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:07,022
correction, we haven't seen a correction really in

294
00:18:07,046 --> 00:18:10,702
the US marketplace since the wine, since wine

295
00:18:10,766 --> 00:18:14,414
started to become interesting. Not a correction like this. There certainly

296
00:18:14,462 --> 00:18:18,302
have been in changes that we've observed,

297
00:18:18,366 --> 00:18:22,052
but this is a, this is a real correction in the wine marketplace.

298
00:18:22,166 --> 00:18:25,992
And I think it's gotten everybody to like get a

299
00:18:26,016 --> 00:18:29,640
little bit more serious and step up and consider

300
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,980
their marketing strategies a little bit more

301
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,384
seriously, you know, because you can't

302
00:18:37,432 --> 00:18:41,144
just go home and play in your vineyard

303
00:18:41,192 --> 00:18:44,920
anymore and make one and have a great vintage and get it all

304
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,636
sold. It's, it's, it's a real, it's, it's a challenge. It's, it's

305
00:18:48,668 --> 00:18:52,320
looking a lot like other farming and agricultural industries

306
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:56,492
right now, you know, which suggests a

307
00:18:56,516 --> 00:19:00,120
surplus situation. It's an interesting problem.

308
00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:02,360
You nailed it on the head

309
00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:07,884
for one. If you start a winery and you and I know how difficult that

310
00:19:07,892 --> 00:19:10,680
is and how, you know, how the margins suck and all that,

311
00:19:12,740 --> 00:19:16,092
you want to make money even if it's just a hobby. If you made your

312
00:19:16,116 --> 00:19:19,708
money as a surgeon or government contractor and you went to Napa, you bought

313
00:19:19,724 --> 00:19:23,560
your plateau. Eventually you hope that you can pick the Grace fermented bottle and

314
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,080
sell it and make money at it. And. And you're

315
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,808
subject to the agricultural whims of the world. I mean, there's.

316
00:19:30,984 --> 00:19:34,344
You have to be five years out minimum to think about having a vineyard. And

317
00:19:34,432 --> 00:19:38,152
how do you Predict consumption in 5 years? What

318
00:19:38,176 --> 00:19:41,912
you had just identified would maybe think about this is if we're a

319
00:19:41,936 --> 00:19:45,464
boutique winery, a Bordeaux house, a Burgundy house or Napa house, we're trying to get

320
00:19:45,472 --> 00:19:48,782
our name told. We need to have this

321
00:19:48,966 --> 00:19:52,110
story out there and we need to use

322
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:55,822
dtc because on the other side of the fence, where the

323
00:19:55,846 --> 00:19:59,310
traditional methods of marketing were, the distributors, they're all

324
00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:02,974
consolidating. And the boutique guys that used to be able to

325
00:20:02,982 --> 00:20:06,158
handle some of these smaller brands and make the sales calls, they're not around

326
00:20:06,214 --> 00:20:09,982
anymore. They've been gobbled up. And now the Southern has a book, you know,

327
00:20:10,006 --> 00:20:13,818
2 inches thick and in RNDC, etc. And so you're

328
00:20:13,834 --> 00:20:16,954
sort of in this. And I think that you're talking about is this metamorphosis of

329
00:20:16,962 --> 00:20:20,554
the industry is changing right now

330
00:20:20,722 --> 00:20:24,378
because of these two sort of opposing forces of what we're

331
00:20:24,394 --> 00:20:28,190
doing. Let's not forget how much regulation

332
00:20:29,490 --> 00:20:33,274
puts a damper on any good ideas. Yeah, that's

333
00:20:33,322 --> 00:20:36,538
true. And it's really

334
00:20:36,594 --> 00:20:40,084
tragic. If you're doing DTC as a

335
00:20:40,092 --> 00:20:43,732
winery just to be able to ship your wine legally

336
00:20:43,876 --> 00:20:47,652
to a state where somebody bought it, you

337
00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:51,204
have to have like thousands and thousands of dollars of permits

338
00:20:51,332 --> 00:20:54,868
that you pay every year just to have the right to maybe sell

339
00:20:54,924 --> 00:20:58,548
six bottles in that district. You know, so it's

340
00:20:58,644 --> 00:21:02,420
untenable for producers, independent producers, to. To try

341
00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:06,148
to actually make a difference. And they need to. And

342
00:21:06,204 --> 00:21:08,480
so therefore, they have to work with

343
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,072
interesting creative retailer models that

344
00:21:13,176 --> 00:21:16,912
maybe solve that problem so they can get their path to market. You

345
00:21:16,936 --> 00:21:20,368
know, I. I'm observing the meteoric rise

346
00:21:20,464 --> 00:21:23,728
of Last Bottle, you know, right

347
00:21:23,784 --> 00:21:27,392
now being like, everyone's scared about the

348
00:21:27,416 --> 00:21:30,848
market right now, but Last Bottle is booming and

349
00:21:30,984 --> 00:21:34,592
they're like buying up everyone and

350
00:21:34,616 --> 00:21:38,048
everything right now. It seems like every other day in the news there's something

351
00:21:38,104 --> 00:21:41,644
about an acquisition. So I'm like, look at who's

352
00:21:41,692 --> 00:21:45,372
being successful right now and learn

353
00:21:45,436 --> 00:21:49,244
something from them. I've seen some really fascinating beverage

354
00:21:49,292 --> 00:21:53,132
companies, and I'll reference Erica Ducey because she did

355
00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:56,840
the research and she's actually interviewed these people and

356
00:21:57,380 --> 00:22:01,116
she Found a wine, a wine

357
00:22:01,148 --> 00:22:04,902
brand that was baked basically in a juice box and it was kind

358
00:22:04,926 --> 00:22:08,150
of a flavored, fun sort of cocktail

359
00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:12,130
beverage, wine type of thing. And it

360
00:22:12,910 --> 00:22:16,438
great success in a juice box because what you can take that

361
00:22:16,494 --> 00:22:19,862
to a music show, you know, no

362
00:22:19,886 --> 00:22:23,494
glass on the beach, that kind of a thing. So

363
00:22:23,582 --> 00:22:27,062
some of these brands are being creative in how they're packaging

364
00:22:27,206 --> 00:22:30,778
and their path to market in terms of their, their

365
00:22:30,834 --> 00:22:34,490
branding, that kind of a thing, or even the product itself.

366
00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:38,266
I think the juice box brand, depending on what state

367
00:22:38,338 --> 00:22:42,186
they're in, they'll either be malt based, wine based or liquor

368
00:22:42,218 --> 00:22:45,690
based because of the regulatory issues. And

369
00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:49,562
that's pretty clever. It's depressing, but it

370
00:22:49,586 --> 00:22:52,790
is pretty clever and it is contributing to their success.

371
00:22:53,650 --> 00:22:57,250
Let's, let's delve into that depressing. What do you say that?

372
00:22:57,710 --> 00:23:01,462
Well, I've looked at, you know, I'm a nerd, so I've looked at all the

373
00:23:01,486 --> 00:23:05,286
regulation sort of around the TTB and there's

374
00:23:05,318 --> 00:23:09,062
definitely a propensity to being a beer brand in

375
00:23:09,086 --> 00:23:12,854
terms of the taxing. I wish that,

376
00:23:12,942 --> 00:23:16,662
I wish that all beverages were created equal in terms of if

377
00:23:16,686 --> 00:23:20,342
your alcohol level was a certain alcohol level, you were

378
00:23:20,366 --> 00:23:24,164
taxed based on the alcohol level and not the type of alcohol

379
00:23:24,212 --> 00:23:27,892
that it is. But because beer is treated separately

380
00:23:27,956 --> 00:23:31,716
to wine, is treated separately to spirits, they're taxed

381
00:23:31,748 --> 00:23:34,640
in totally different models. And I think it's not fair.

382
00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:39,044
Do you think that's changing? Do you think that ever a chance error in the

383
00:23:39,052 --> 00:23:42,640
world, Free the Grapes and all the other organizations that have come through this

384
00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:46,756
on, changing on this. And by the way, you've touched on so many subjects

385
00:23:46,788 --> 00:23:50,432
that I can't even decide which one to go with. But you

386
00:23:50,456 --> 00:23:54,160
know the, everybody's got this, even Amazon, you know, there was this

387
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,512
whole idea that they were going to throw millions and millions of dollars to getting

388
00:23:56,536 --> 00:24:00,144
the feds to change their mind. I just don't see that bureaucracy

389
00:24:00,192 --> 00:24:03,616
changing relatively any soon. It's not even a word

390
00:24:03,648 --> 00:24:07,456
really. If you wanted to do something in the next four years might actually

391
00:24:07,528 --> 00:24:10,656
be the time. I've seen a lot of things go down in the last couple

392
00:24:10,688 --> 00:24:14,432
of days. It's kind of, it's kind of

393
00:24:14,456 --> 00:24:17,680
nutty. You know, it's funny, you're talking about the story and

394
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,944
innovation for one. So my romantic

395
00:24:20,992 --> 00:24:24,816
view of wine and this didn't come around until

396
00:24:24,888 --> 00:24:28,352
later in my career in this industry. For me it was business. I bought it

397
00:24:28,376 --> 00:24:32,032
from my dad. You know, we taste on Tuesdays, let's sell some

398
00:24:32,056 --> 00:24:35,552
Wine. But this, you know, visiting the, the

399
00:24:35,576 --> 00:24:39,264
world's regions of wine and having these conversations with amazing people,

400
00:24:39,432 --> 00:24:42,672
you know, has sort of led me down this path of the, the romantic side

401
00:24:42,696 --> 00:24:45,760
of wine and the, the ethereal value of a glass of wine and the human

402
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,532
value of a glass of wine. And so I'm sort of, when you said

403
00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:52,924
depressing, depressed at these ideas of

404
00:24:53,092 --> 00:24:56,524
fruit flavors and tetra packs and can linings

405
00:24:56,572 --> 00:25:00,060
and that just takes away from the romantic side of wine. But

406
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,948
certainly, you know, kudos to the people that can sell millions

407
00:25:03,964 --> 00:25:07,676
of bottles or millions of tetra packs of, of. Wine,

408
00:25:07,868 --> 00:25:11,532
Millions of tetra packs. But you know, there was a, somebody on Facebook the other

409
00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:14,348
day posted that they were at Wine Paris and they were talking to this guy

410
00:25:14,364 --> 00:25:17,974
and he had sold 24 million cans of some peach flavored

411
00:25:18,102 --> 00:25:21,702
fermented grape juice. And I go, wow, that's, you

412
00:25:21,726 --> 00:25:25,382
know, congratulations on the number. But oh my goodness, I guess

413
00:25:25,406 --> 00:25:28,130
that's the entry level stuff, right? That's what we need.

414
00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:33,830
I think you hit it on the head. We need some entry level stuff for

415
00:25:33,870 --> 00:25:37,670
the kids and we need to, and, and then they can get to the

416
00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:41,510
fine bottled wines with corks in them. But they, but

417
00:25:41,550 --> 00:25:45,352
we all, I should say we all. There's 1 in

418
00:25:45,376 --> 00:25:49,176
5, 4 in 5 of us still romanticize

419
00:25:49,368 --> 00:25:53,208
bottles and this experience of wine

420
00:25:53,304 --> 00:25:57,048
and we want to get into it and we're very intimidated. It's a long

421
00:25:57,104 --> 00:26:00,360
path to learning. So it, and where do we

422
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,216
start? So where do we start investing

423
00:26:04,248 --> 00:26:07,980
in that? That right now is very exciting

424
00:26:08,330 --> 00:26:12,050
to me and it's, and I have to say I was worried

425
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:14,430
that wine folly was going to become

426
00:26:15,130 --> 00:26:18,674
irrelevant. You know, everyone's already

427
00:26:18,762 --> 00:26:22,569
learned everything and you know, around the time 2020,

428
00:26:22,722 --> 00:26:26,370
2021 rolled around, I was like, there's so much

429
00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:30,178
information out there. Am I valid? Does it even matter if I keep

430
00:26:30,234 --> 00:26:34,002
doing this anymore? And I think it was like the beginning of

431
00:26:34,026 --> 00:26:37,858
this year, towards the end of last year, I saw

432
00:26:37,914 --> 00:26:41,586
a change that inspired me to be like,

433
00:26:41,658 --> 00:26:42,910
no, don't stop.

434
00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:48,002
Congratulations. This is, this is, this is

435
00:26:48,026 --> 00:26:51,474
a necessary thing. We have an entire generation

436
00:26:51,522 --> 00:26:54,626
of half of the Z's. Gen Z

437
00:26:54,778 --> 00:26:58,610
have some percentage of the Gen Z. I think it's less than

438
00:26:58,650 --> 00:27:02,354
half, is not even 21 yet in the United

439
00:27:02,442 --> 00:27:05,270
States and that means they can't even legally drink.

440
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,500
So we got a little bit of time.

441
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,664
And I think this transition, you know, landing on the other side of

442
00:27:14,672 --> 00:27:18,312
this transition is, is going to require staying the

443
00:27:18,336 --> 00:27:22,120
course because I, I don't think that the, the Romanticism or the

444
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,512
value of that glass of wine will ever change. It hasn't changed in thousands and

445
00:27:25,536 --> 00:27:28,980
thousands of years. And that every generation comes around,

446
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,280
some later than others, to understand that, you know, when you're. I don't know about

447
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,992
you, but I think about what I'm gonna have when I get home.

448
00:27:37,096 --> 00:27:40,560
Not what I'm gonna eat, but what I want to drink.

449
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,208
And it's not because of the 14 alcohol. It's because I want

450
00:27:44,264 --> 00:27:48,032
to feel something. And that's just from years and

451
00:27:48,056 --> 00:27:51,824
years of experience. And I think everybody has that. You know, I had

452
00:27:51,832 --> 00:27:55,664
this interesting conversation yesterday. A guy named Chad Ludington.

453
00:27:55,712 --> 00:27:59,254
I don't know if you know who he is. Complete academic. Complete

454
00:27:59,302 --> 00:28:03,062
academic on wine, incredible historian on wine. But

455
00:28:03,086 --> 00:28:06,850
he talked about a professor, and I forgot the university

456
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:09,610
that can. That can articulate

457
00:28:10,670 --> 00:28:13,686
why our palette will

458
00:28:13,838 --> 00:28:16,950
grow. After you start drinking

459
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:20,758
Apothec red or Josh, whatever you're drinking, and you

460
00:28:20,814 --> 00:28:24,560
get bored of that simple style, and you

461
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,432
start to seek complexity, acid, balance, structure, all the things that

462
00:28:28,456 --> 00:28:32,144
we. We appreciate. And I wait for him to tell. Send me the

463
00:28:32,152 --> 00:28:35,140
article, because it's quantifiable

464
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,392
change in your palate to. To lean towards that. I think

465
00:28:39,416 --> 00:28:43,088
that's part of what the. The value of a glass of wine is.

466
00:28:43,144 --> 00:28:46,944
So leading to the. Go ahead. But why did I start loving

467
00:28:46,992 --> 00:28:50,630
Riesling? And now I love Riesling again. Was it always?

468
00:28:51,090 --> 00:28:53,030
I'll have to read the article. I don't know.

469
00:28:54,850 --> 00:28:58,266
I feel like. I feel like. You're right. It did. Your palate does

470
00:28:58,338 --> 00:29:02,106
change. Absolutely. Oh, my wife is my biggest

471
00:29:02,138 --> 00:29:05,946
critic, and when we got married, she drank, you know, Gallo

472
00:29:05,978 --> 00:29:09,690
rind wine, and. And now I can't get, you know,

473
00:29:09,730 --> 00:29:13,434
Syrah past her because she knows immediately what I'm trying to fool her into,

474
00:29:13,602 --> 00:29:17,076
because I wanted to appreciate those things. But no, it's. It's Bordeaux

475
00:29:17,108 --> 00:29:20,884
Ridle, man. That's what. That's what I have to serve. Oh, no, you're

476
00:29:20,932 --> 00:29:24,720
stuck. So let's go back to the marketing side of this, because you.

477
00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:28,452
I'm gonna say something tongue in cheek, and it's. It's kind of funny, actually. I

478
00:29:28,476 --> 00:29:32,164
was looking for an email I sent you in 2013.

479
00:29:32,252 --> 00:29:36,004
So you're only into this for two years at this point, and

480
00:29:36,172 --> 00:29:39,300
not sure where you were at in the cycle, but probably, obviously the very

481
00:29:39,340 --> 00:29:43,102
beginning of learning to educate customers. And I

482
00:29:43,126 --> 00:29:46,830
said, you know, maybe we can work together. And. And you wrote back, like,

483
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:47,450
what?

484
00:29:51,670 --> 00:29:55,326
Oh, my goodness. And I. I don't remember what I. If I responded.

485
00:29:55,358 --> 00:29:59,134
I. You Know, was slammed at the time, and we were just, we were growing,

486
00:29:59,182 --> 00:30:02,846
you know, 2,000 at that time. That's hilarious. We were about to hit our biggest

487
00:30:02,878 --> 00:30:06,366
year a couple years later, and. Oh, my gosh. And yeah, I'm,

488
00:30:06,398 --> 00:30:09,982
I'm. I'm not very good at email. I try to stay.

489
00:30:10,166 --> 00:30:12,610
It wasn't a criticism. Funny

490
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,112
like this. This part of. Of the

491
00:30:17,136 --> 00:30:20,936
industry now is what I think plagues a lot of people, and that's

492
00:30:20,968 --> 00:30:24,664
the content generation and the, the marketing of. And they're not

493
00:30:24,672 --> 00:30:28,248
marketeers. We're farmers, right? I mean, I'm not. I'm not. I'm a horrible farmer. But

494
00:30:28,304 --> 00:30:31,064
in general, I start the wine business because I want to. I think I want

495
00:30:31,072 --> 00:30:33,960
to be a farmer, and I think I want to be in that lifestyle. And

496
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,580
then now I have to go sell something, and this becomes more difficult.

497
00:30:38,270 --> 00:30:41,974
And I think that one of the differences between market.

498
00:30:42,062 --> 00:30:45,382
Even back in 2011, when you started, though, it was just

499
00:30:45,406 --> 00:30:48,262
emerging. Certainly When I started

500
00:30:48,446 --> 00:30:52,150
1989, there were very quantifiable,

501
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:56,022
definable campaigns. It wasn't a commitment to marketing. It was

502
00:30:56,046 --> 00:30:59,734
a campaign. I would mail 300,000 pieces of mail, wait for the results,

503
00:30:59,902 --> 00:31:03,334
refine that result, and then send out it again. Three times a year,

504
00:31:03,502 --> 00:31:06,790
I run an ad in the newspaper and I'd put a promo code and then

505
00:31:06,830 --> 00:31:10,130
they'd call and I'd know how. How that new ad did. That was a.

506
00:31:11,130 --> 00:31:14,402
But it's not that way anymore. It's a commitment to the

507
00:31:14,426 --> 00:31:18,242
strategy. There's. And the benefit of social networks marketing

508
00:31:18,306 --> 00:31:21,746
and content marketing is you can start and stop anytime you want, but the moment

509
00:31:21,778 --> 00:31:25,602
you stop is the moment that people stop paying attention and you can

510
00:31:25,626 --> 00:31:28,230
start up again without any penalty.

511
00:31:29,050 --> 00:31:32,722
And. But it's a commitment, not right. It's not a. You

512
00:31:32,746 --> 00:31:36,018
don't campaign things anymore. You can still have

513
00:31:36,074 --> 00:31:39,898
campaigns, but you do need that baseline. It's

514
00:31:39,914 --> 00:31:43,498
kind of like going to the gym. You know, you got to stay

515
00:31:43,554 --> 00:31:47,194
fit, so you're going to the gym and you're keeping that baseline

516
00:31:47,242 --> 00:31:50,922
health taken care of. That's your baseline

517
00:31:51,066 --> 00:31:54,170
content marketing. And so you got to be

518
00:31:54,210 --> 00:31:57,978
consistent. That's the secret. Whatever you're doing, you're

519
00:31:57,994 --> 00:32:01,610
consistent. But you can. Then you need to add campaigns on top

520
00:32:01,650 --> 00:32:05,332
of that. So it is hard. It is hard. It is a huge

521
00:32:05,396 --> 00:32:08,980
ask. I think that. I think it is a big

522
00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:12,788
ask for sure. I think for small companies, you know,

523
00:32:12,844 --> 00:32:16,400
the reason the YMF club, you know, I was fortunate enough to sell it.

524
00:32:16,780 --> 00:32:20,596
And speaking of last bottle, you know, Alex was part of that conversation. Didn't

525
00:32:20,628 --> 00:32:22,240
land in his plate though. But

526
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:28,452
with an on staff digital designer, et cetera, like

527
00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:32,124
I told you, and the campaigns required and the commitments

528
00:32:32,172 --> 00:32:35,852
to have content all the time. And then one of the

529
00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:39,580
reasons my wife and I decided to sell after 35

530
00:32:39,620 --> 00:32:42,760
years was. You said it already.

531
00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:46,860
She goes, I don't want to process 38 tax returns next

532
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:50,522
quarter. So this is first quarter 2023. You know, March

533
00:32:50,598 --> 00:32:54,364
31st was the end of it. And we're like, yeah, you're right. You know, the

534
00:32:54,372 --> 00:32:57,868
overhead to carry everybody in this company for another three

535
00:32:57,924 --> 00:33:01,772
months and then have to process 38 tax returns to get

536
00:33:01,796 --> 00:33:04,880
through the regulations. Because we did our own compliance

537
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,040
and the overhead of these three marketeers,

538
00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:12,364
we didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel at that point. It

539
00:33:12,372 --> 00:33:15,708
had been a long good run, so we just decided to, to move on.

540
00:33:15,764 --> 00:33:19,612
But this is hard. You know, those are

541
00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:23,310
just those two subjects alone for a small winery

542
00:33:23,970 --> 00:33:27,770
is ominous. That is extremely ominous.

543
00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:31,594
Yeah, yeah. You need a partner. You need a partner

544
00:33:31,642 --> 00:33:34,950
who can help you. Yeah. Which is interesting because

545
00:33:35,730 --> 00:33:39,402
when I, when we merged the company with Global Wine Database, I

546
00:33:39,426 --> 00:33:43,242
really wanted that technology, this database technology where

547
00:33:43,266 --> 00:33:47,114
you can be a, like it's producer

548
00:33:47,162 --> 00:33:50,966
controlled wine information. It's a product information management system. So

549
00:33:51,138 --> 00:33:54,542
a winery can add their winery in and then they can add their

550
00:33:54,566 --> 00:33:58,174
individual bottles of wine. And my hope was or is

551
00:33:58,262 --> 00:34:01,966
still is, because we're building it, we already have multiple region guides,

552
00:34:02,078 --> 00:34:05,390
is that if you learn about Bordeaux and you go to

553
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:09,070
Pomerol, the Pomerol section to learn about Pomerol, you

554
00:34:09,110 --> 00:34:12,750
can see wineries and wines from Pomerol

555
00:34:12,830 --> 00:34:16,652
and if that producer continues to add their wines in every vintage. Right.

556
00:34:16,766 --> 00:34:20,272
That's part of your vin, your work. They'll continue to show

557
00:34:20,456 --> 00:34:24,112
the, their current vintage of

558
00:34:24,136 --> 00:34:27,584
the wine as a discovery model, as a learning discovery

559
00:34:27,632 --> 00:34:31,472
model. And so that's what, that's the entire reason we, that's the

560
00:34:31,496 --> 00:34:35,216
entire reason we, we have Wine Folly database now. It's the entire

561
00:34:35,248 --> 00:34:37,820
reason we started Wine Folly plus is that

562
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,080
maybe a marketer needs to be the best at

563
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,833
communicating wine and then you have an opportunity

564
00:34:45,881 --> 00:34:49,673
to get in front of that audience. And that was my hope for the future

565
00:34:49,761 --> 00:34:53,481
was something where I could get the details,

566
00:34:53,545 --> 00:34:57,241
the meta information about an area and see

567
00:34:57,265 --> 00:35:01,001
all the wineries on a map. Like that was my dream. Just show me

568
00:35:01,025 --> 00:35:03,945
all the wineries I just want to see and I don't want to be distracted

569
00:35:03,977 --> 00:35:07,689
by other things. I actually want to focus on what's there because

570
00:35:07,729 --> 00:35:11,412
maybe I'm having a glass of Pommel right now and I want to see where

571
00:35:11,436 --> 00:35:15,268
that winery is and I want to see what other wineries around it because

572
00:35:15,404 --> 00:35:19,172
maybe I want to buy more. That's really interesting. You

573
00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:22,852
know, I had a, I did a video,

574
00:35:23,036 --> 00:35:26,756
I went to a tasting with, you know, Don Schliff from Wine

575
00:35:26,788 --> 00:35:30,148
Warehouse, used to be the one where he's probably one of the great port collections

576
00:35:30,244 --> 00:35:34,084
in the world. Top five. Anyway, he does a tasting annually

577
00:35:34,132 --> 00:35:37,652
here in Los Angeles and you know, the sucklings come and the Darrell Cordy comes

578
00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:41,210
and all the famous people come. And I took a video of him

579
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:44,814
opening a bottle of vintage port with his custom

580
00:35:44,902 --> 00:35:48,590
made red hot tongs. You know,

581
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:51,850
an old guy standing in front of a noisy bar

582
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:56,222
with no voiceover and no music. And I have over 4 and

583
00:35:56,246 --> 00:36:00,014
a half million views on Tick Tock and like million and a half on Instagram.

584
00:36:00,142 --> 00:36:03,918
That's awesome. And of course zero sales volume came from that.

585
00:36:03,974 --> 00:36:06,414
None of the, you know, just an awareness. And I think this is part of

586
00:36:06,422 --> 00:36:10,142
the, the conversation which was this, this overhead to producing this

587
00:36:10,166 --> 00:36:13,518
stuff. And then virality really doesn't mean anything except that

588
00:36:13,654 --> 00:36:17,130
people learn who you are and hopefully one day they buy something from you.

589
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:21,726
But you, I, I tell you, I've only been worried

590
00:36:21,758 --> 00:36:25,598
a couple of times in my career of doing this when I saw

591
00:36:25,654 --> 00:36:29,262
a new club, one of them was in the Wall Street Journal Club started and

592
00:36:29,286 --> 00:36:32,654
I knew they had backing and it was, it was limestone and you know, that

593
00:36:32,662 --> 00:36:35,952
was going to be big and they had the ability, they had a relationship with

594
00:36:35,976 --> 00:36:38,700
their, with their, theoretically with their financial

595
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,920
clients. But the other one I thought was gonna, that, that, that

596
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,392
I was a little concerned about starting when, when it started was the Wine

597
00:36:47,456 --> 00:36:51,200
Folly Club because we already had enough clubs in the

598
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:54,992
world. And I thought, wow, she's got a, you know, she's got a database and

599
00:36:55,016 --> 00:36:58,768
she's got, people are following her. And what did you see when

600
00:36:58,824 --> 00:37:01,876
you started a DTC company for

601
00:37:01,948 --> 00:37:05,732
wine that you didn't expect or you know, and

602
00:37:05,756 --> 00:37:09,172
I know you didn't you relaunch it or didn't you send it over? We had

603
00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:12,964
a, we were, we've always been doing it with a joint, as a

604
00:37:12,972 --> 00:37:16,532
joint venture with a retail partner. So we didn't have to

605
00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:20,388
deal with the 38 fulfillment tax

606
00:37:20,444 --> 00:37:24,116
returns because that isn't for our business

607
00:37:24,188 --> 00:37:27,940
as untenable. So we had always structured it where we would pick

608
00:37:27,980 --> 00:37:30,810
the wines and do all the wine education

609
00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:33,930
associated to each club. And

610
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:38,910
was that that essentially is the model. And the club is

611
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:42,494
still really popular. It's.

612
00:37:42,622 --> 00:37:46,350
It's interesting because why you

613
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:50,030
join a club is it. It really needs to

614
00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:53,710
fit your price point. Like your

615
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:57,530
price point. And then wines. The wines that you want every month.

616
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,592
I don't know. I felt like it was

617
00:38:01,616 --> 00:38:04,920
gonna really take off in a way

618
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,360
that I was super excited for. And

619
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,056
when it's still very popular, but it's not in the way that I was

620
00:38:12,128 --> 00:38:15,784
hoping. I was hoping for problems of wine. Finding

621
00:38:15,912 --> 00:38:19,656
enough wines. Right. And finding enough good

622
00:38:19,728 --> 00:38:23,516
quality, small producer wines to actually fulfill the club.

623
00:38:23,648 --> 00:38:27,476
Yeah. And when that didn't happen, I was like, this is not

624
00:38:27,548 --> 00:38:31,332
the model right now. That's. This isn't what someone wants right

625
00:38:31,356 --> 00:38:34,708
now. They don't want to be carried along in the club. And maybe that's the

626
00:38:34,764 --> 00:38:37,280
change that's happened between

627
00:38:38,220 --> 00:38:41,908
my generation, which is a club generation. Right. I

628
00:38:41,964 --> 00:38:45,140
started a wine club. My dad bought me a wine club when I was 21.

629
00:38:45,260 --> 00:38:48,836
Two bottles would come in every month. And when I was going to college

630
00:38:48,948 --> 00:38:52,494
and. And those were the fanciest wines that I ever put in.

631
00:38:52,662 --> 00:38:55,534
The fanciest anythings that I would put in my body in a month because I

632
00:38:55,542 --> 00:38:59,374
was eating basically like brown rice and beans. And

633
00:38:59,382 --> 00:39:03,182
then I would have these. Yeah. Top ramen and. And

634
00:39:03,206 --> 00:39:07,022
coterone. And so, like, it was really. It was an

635
00:39:07,046 --> 00:39:10,510
incredible experience. It helped pave the way and get me into wine.

636
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:14,430
Right. And so I thought that might be the

637
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:18,282
same with the younger generation, but I'm not sure.

638
00:39:18,466 --> 00:39:21,834
I'm not sure. Maybe they have enough information that they want to go and discover

639
00:39:21,882 --> 00:39:24,890
on their own and buy the things on their own and pick out what they

640
00:39:24,930 --> 00:39:28,570
want. And then you see the rise of the

641
00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:32,458
last bottle thing. And it's this idea, this storytelling they do

642
00:39:32,514 --> 00:39:36,218
for every wine is so incredible. It's so much

643
00:39:36,274 --> 00:39:40,010
detail. And you really become enamored with the wine even

644
00:39:40,050 --> 00:39:43,860
before you even think about, like, you're just.

645
00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:47,476
It's just casual. And then you be. You fall in love. And so

646
00:39:47,628 --> 00:39:51,460
there's something there with that. Hey, it's a.

647
00:39:51,580 --> 00:39:55,316
It's gonna sell out. There's only this many. It's a. It's on a super

648
00:39:55,388 --> 00:39:58,932
sale. It's. When it's gone, it's gone. There's this

649
00:39:59,036 --> 00:40:02,836
tension that gets built with this, like, I have to buy, otherwise

650
00:40:02,868 --> 00:40:06,612
I miss out. It's fomo. Yeah. Generation. Those

651
00:40:06,636 --> 00:40:10,072
things have come and gone a lot of times. I'm glad they're doing well. I

652
00:40:10,096 --> 00:40:13,784
mean, Trader Joe's was founded on that same principle. You Know,

653
00:40:13,792 --> 00:40:17,608
Trader Joe's success was not only their foodstuffs, but their, their wine. A guy

654
00:40:17,624 --> 00:40:20,184
named Bob Bernie used to buy for them. And it was, they would tell you

655
00:40:20,192 --> 00:40:23,288
in the, in the Fearless Flyer, we only have 2,000 bottles and we got 20

656
00:40:23,344 --> 00:40:26,904
stores. So you figure you do the numbers and it's going to be gone. You

657
00:40:26,912 --> 00:40:29,580
know, the Wine of the Month club, we peaked,

658
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,084
we peaked around 2,014 or 15

659
00:40:35,172 --> 00:40:38,440
or something. And I had close to 18, 000 members.

660
00:40:38,820 --> 00:40:42,600
Wow. And, you know, that's unheard of really these days

661
00:40:43,940 --> 00:40:47,360
on a month, this is monthly, not just wines.

662
00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:51,500
So. But we had that problem. And since you're talking about

663
00:40:51,540 --> 00:40:55,052
segmentation of the people that are buying, we had that problem. You know, I'd have

664
00:40:55,076 --> 00:40:58,467
to buy 1500 cases of one red and about 8,

665
00:40:58,570 --> 00:41:02,392
7, 900 cases of white in a price point that

666
00:41:02,416 --> 00:41:06,260
I could afford to sell for 12 or 13 a bottle. That became a problem.

667
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,536
But it's also founded on the idea that there was always something

668
00:41:10,608 --> 00:41:14,260
around. And the other reason I got out was

669
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,000
that idea was, was starting to thin out because there were the last

670
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,872
bottles of the world and wine Access and I forgot the other

671
00:41:22,896 --> 00:41:25,832
guy, guy on the east coast, you know, they were buying up some of these

672
00:41:25,856 --> 00:41:29,506
allocations too, and some of these, these odd lots and so they're

673
00:41:29,538 --> 00:41:33,042
hard to find. And I was finding myself going into Europe for, you

674
00:41:33,066 --> 00:41:36,882
know, $2 a liter stuff and $1 liter stuff and just, you

675
00:41:36,906 --> 00:41:40,562
know, not producing the wines that I really wanted to show the clients. So the

676
00:41:40,586 --> 00:41:44,354
premise had changed considerably on what we were doing. But

677
00:41:44,522 --> 00:41:48,034
yeah, at that point, going by, you're saying it's

678
00:41:48,082 --> 00:41:51,810
completely price point driven. Yeah. And I, I think that was the problem is

679
00:41:51,850 --> 00:41:55,650
like, I wanted to have, I wanted to, I want to, you know that our

680
00:41:55,690 --> 00:41:59,346
club is a, you know, $120 a month. It's, yeah,

681
00:41:59,538 --> 00:42:03,220
it' big, you know, expense and you do get

682
00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:07,092
high quality wines. But if we wanted it to scale, like the

683
00:42:07,116 --> 00:42:10,932
potential of going into this danger, period,

684
00:42:11,116 --> 00:42:14,660
right now, it's the right size where we can, we can find really

685
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:18,340
incredible stuff from small producers and put it in the club and

686
00:42:18,460 --> 00:42:22,260
be really stoked about it. But then it's, it, it's not

687
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:26,052
designed to scale, so it's not going to work. And so I, you

688
00:42:26,076 --> 00:42:29,410
know, I. What do you do? Like, you want to, you want to help people

689
00:42:29,450 --> 00:42:33,026
get into wines and you want to give them examples of great wines to try

690
00:42:33,178 --> 00:42:36,850
that are in a price point that they can afford. And that's essentially what we

691
00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:40,690
had. We were trying to do. I'm the club.

692
00:42:40,810 --> 00:42:44,274
I think I'm not as excited about now. Since we've launched Wine

693
00:42:44,322 --> 00:42:47,778
Folly plus, we've gotten so much more signal with

694
00:42:47,834 --> 00:42:50,898
that. It's an online

695
00:42:51,034 --> 00:42:54,832
platform. You log in, you access all of. You

696
00:42:54,856 --> 00:42:58,672
know, we started selling posters, you access all of our infographics, you access all

697
00:42:58,696 --> 00:43:02,496
of our maps in great detail, super

698
00:43:02,568 --> 00:43:06,096
zoom level detail so you can learn and

699
00:43:06,168 --> 00:43:09,840
discover these parts of the world. So right now, it's already an

700
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,712
incredible value at $100 a year. But we're continuing

701
00:43:13,776 --> 00:43:17,424
to grow that product. You know, we have a product roadmap to continue

702
00:43:17,512 --> 00:43:20,020
to offer and

703
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,660
additive features for Wine Folly plus members. And,

704
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,952
you know, I thought that our, I thought that

705
00:43:28,976 --> 00:43:32,440
our wine club was going to grow at the rate that Wine Folly plus is

706
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,184
currently growing. I was expecting that, that people wanted

707
00:43:36,232 --> 00:43:38,872
at the end of the day because they would always ask, why don't you just

708
00:43:38,896 --> 00:43:42,648
include wine? Right? Why don't you just include wine? And so we're

709
00:43:42,664 --> 00:43:46,492
like, all right, we'll do it. But I, I don't know that I need

710
00:43:46,516 --> 00:43:50,172
to touch wine. I don't know that that's what I'm supposed to do. I think

711
00:43:50,196 --> 00:43:53,820
my job is to touch everything but wine

712
00:43:53,900 --> 00:43:57,660
and get you right to the front door and you can decide to go through

713
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:00,920
that door and find what you actually want to buy through the education,

714
00:44:01,380 --> 00:44:05,100
through the like agnostic education, you

715
00:44:05,140 --> 00:44:08,876
know, that we offer. So I think you're right on. I

716
00:44:09,028 --> 00:44:12,772
can't tell you how many people, how many saw, particularly in

717
00:44:12,796 --> 00:44:16,004
the retail side. Now you're talking about earlier part of our career and part of

718
00:44:16,012 --> 00:44:19,748
wine. I mean, you know, Jim, Jim Barry used to come into my dad's wine

719
00:44:19,764 --> 00:44:23,140
shop all the time. So that's how, how long ago we've been doing

720
00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:26,644
this. But along the way,

721
00:44:26,812 --> 00:44:30,240
watching retailers see our success.

722
00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:34,612
And I tried retail. I've had probably four wine shops. None of them have

723
00:44:34,636 --> 00:44:38,292
done really anything of any consequence. I think one year I made some

724
00:44:38,316 --> 00:44:40,790
money, but

725
00:44:41,810 --> 00:44:45,290
we were good at DTC. We are good at marketing. We. I sent

726
00:44:45,330 --> 00:44:48,938
33 million emails my last full year. I, I produced 300

727
00:44:48,994 --> 00:44:52,330
promo codes and 300, you know, graphics and

728
00:44:52,370 --> 00:44:56,122
300 text for those graphics. And

729
00:44:56,146 --> 00:44:59,882
that's what we did. And sometimes, particularly in our industry, because of

730
00:44:59,906 --> 00:45:03,674
the rules and the regulations and the lousy margins, you know, and I

731
00:45:03,682 --> 00:45:07,486
think that's one of the last bottles success. Their margins are good.

732
00:45:07,558 --> 00:45:11,182
You know, I know how he buys. They're really good because there's so much distress.

733
00:45:11,326 --> 00:45:15,006
Good quality distressed merchandise, not Distress and quality, distressed

734
00:45:15,038 --> 00:45:18,782
and availability. We kind of have a distressed

735
00:45:18,846 --> 00:45:19,870
period in the

736
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:23,566
2004-2007, maybe

737
00:45:23,598 --> 00:45:27,182
2008 period where wine was really affordable. There was

738
00:45:27,206 --> 00:45:30,910
lots of. From Australia that was like, wow, for the price,

739
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:34,592
it was really good. That's how I got into wine. That was the

740
00:45:34,616 --> 00:45:37,680
era that I got into wine. And you're like, oh, God, that dates me. But

741
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:41,392
like. It'S true, though. It was

742
00:45:41,416 --> 00:45:44,848
affordable. It's true. Yeah. So having affordable good

743
00:45:44,904 --> 00:45:48,740
product is like the best onboarding

744
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,992
mechanism. It's such an emotional buy. You

745
00:45:53,016 --> 00:45:56,384
know, I was in the market the other day with one of my social networkers.

746
00:45:56,432 --> 00:45:59,892
Not the other day, a little while ago, but a woman I know, you

747
00:45:59,916 --> 00:46:03,492
know, not by first name, but she knows who I am in the neighborhood. I

748
00:46:03,516 --> 00:46:06,276
think I coached her kids in little league kind of thing. And she was looking.

749
00:46:06,348 --> 00:46:10,132
She actually said, why? We're doing some social network videos in

750
00:46:10,156 --> 00:46:13,924
the wine aisle at the supermarket. And I. I go, what? What are you

751
00:46:13,932 --> 00:46:16,866
looking for? She goes, something other than what I usually drink. I go, what do

752
00:46:16,868 --> 00:46:20,612
you usually drink? She said, rodney Strong. I said, well, but here's some

753
00:46:20,636 --> 00:46:24,132
stuff that's kind of like that, that's different that you may want to try. And

754
00:46:24,236 --> 00:46:26,820
it's such an. She knows who I am. She knows I've been in this business

755
00:46:26,860 --> 00:46:30,570
for a long time. I sell wine. And whatever. She didn't.

756
00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:34,362
She left. And I think she came back later when I wasn't there, because

757
00:46:34,386 --> 00:46:38,010
it's such an emotional purchase. Despite the fact

758
00:46:38,050 --> 00:46:41,882
that. That, you know, you're recommending the wines, they. To

759
00:46:41,906 --> 00:46:45,706
make that decision. It's so emotional. And all my best friends

760
00:46:45,778 --> 00:46:49,290
that know what I do will still sometimes, like,

761
00:46:49,410 --> 00:46:52,202
kind of want to do what they want to do on their own, which is

762
00:46:52,226 --> 00:46:55,992
perfectly fine with me. But I think that's part of the headwinds to. To

763
00:46:56,016 --> 00:46:59,480
any subscription model, particularly in wine, is, you know, that

764
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,744
acquisition cost gets so high because you're trying to find the person that's going to

765
00:47:02,752 --> 00:47:06,392
say, oh, I really respect what Madeline's opinion is of these

766
00:47:06,416 --> 00:47:10,264
wines. I'm going to try this. And, you know, 120 bucks is

767
00:47:10,352 --> 00:47:14,072
inexpensive. Last subject, because we're almost done here.

768
00:47:14,096 --> 00:47:16,140
We're. We're 47 minutes.

769
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,848
There's a lot of lip service on the web right now from

770
00:47:21,984 --> 00:47:24,820
generations of people that haven't done this,

771
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,936
haven't cut their teeth on the mistakes we've

772
00:47:28,968 --> 00:47:32,664
made. And so some of the stuff I read about, really basic sales

773
00:47:32,712 --> 00:47:36,376
skills, I learned, you know, at Xerox, and I'm like, you know, this isn't

774
00:47:36,408 --> 00:47:40,220
new stuff you guys are talking about, but one of the conversations is innovation.

775
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,312
And I. I had. I had the professor of

776
00:47:44,336 --> 00:47:47,752
innovation on the show and still got no further along with. With the

777
00:47:47,776 --> 00:47:51,000
definition in our trade than I did

778
00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:55,132
on my own. But what does that mean to you? What.

779
00:47:55,316 --> 00:47:58,988
What would innovation of the wine trade mean to you? Innovation

780
00:47:59,084 --> 00:48:02,828
is where you take something that's over here in

781
00:48:02,884 --> 00:48:06,124
some other market or industry

782
00:48:06,292 --> 00:48:10,012
or technology, and then you apply it

783
00:48:10,196 --> 00:48:13,452
to another industry, market, technology, community,

784
00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:16,000
whatever. That's innovation.

785
00:48:17,460 --> 00:48:20,240
And in our industry, easy.

786
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:25,212
Well, the great thing about wine industry is that

787
00:48:25,316 --> 00:48:29,004
it is a little bit of a Luddite. So

788
00:48:29,012 --> 00:48:32,172
there's so many things you could

789
00:48:32,356 --> 00:48:35,324
borrow from other industries,

790
00:48:35,452 --> 00:48:39,120
technologies. In theory, yes. In theory,

791
00:48:40,340 --> 00:48:44,006
will it work? I think you kind of hit it on his head. Is

792
00:48:44,158 --> 00:48:46,770
purchasing wine is an emotional experience,

793
00:48:47,390 --> 00:48:51,014
and controlling people's

794
00:48:51,062 --> 00:48:54,790
emotions is more of the realm that you're going into, and that's

795
00:48:54,870 --> 00:48:58,582
storytelling. So I would say that I think

796
00:48:58,606 --> 00:49:02,374
if you are trying to pull a lever,

797
00:49:02,502 --> 00:49:05,330
pull a heartstring in someone,

798
00:49:06,510 --> 00:49:10,000
I think storytelling is the. Is

799
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,424
the. It's. It sounds almost religious to be preaching

800
00:49:13,472 --> 00:49:17,232
storytelling, but I think at the end of the

801
00:49:17,256 --> 00:49:20,416
day, that's what you want to do. At the end of the day is enjoy

802
00:49:20,448 --> 00:49:23,872
a great story. And if your bottle is a

803
00:49:23,896 --> 00:49:27,616
story that can, just like you said,

804
00:49:27,688 --> 00:49:31,248
you can look forward to, that's actually the most

805
00:49:31,304 --> 00:49:35,130
beautiful thing. So I used to put

806
00:49:35,170 --> 00:49:38,890
a lot of stock in information because we could

807
00:49:38,930 --> 00:49:42,650
make really cool things with information, and we certainly

808
00:49:42,730 --> 00:49:46,550
still need all of that information in order to direct people

809
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:50,538
down the right avenue. So they're walking down the road

810
00:49:50,594 --> 00:49:54,190
they want to be on, so to speak, in terms of wine style.

811
00:49:54,610 --> 00:49:58,430
But then when it comes time to picking

812
00:49:59,570 --> 00:50:03,282
the story wins. At the end of the day, if we're looking at the

813
00:50:03,306 --> 00:50:06,930
same price, same quality level about. If we've got all those things,

814
00:50:07,050 --> 00:50:10,690
it's gonna get zero to 60 in four seconds,

815
00:50:10,770 --> 00:50:13,830
you know, whatever it is. Well, here's my quip.

816
00:50:14,650 --> 00:50:18,002
We know this much, at least on the furthest end of the spectrum of

817
00:50:18,026 --> 00:50:21,746
storytelling, which is the story is not.

818
00:50:21,898 --> 00:50:25,230
I got this for five bucks on the Internet. That's not a story.

819
00:50:25,610 --> 00:50:29,402
And so I. I'm just. I was so anticipating this conversation

820
00:50:29,466 --> 00:50:32,710
because I've watched you grow, and

821
00:50:33,090 --> 00:50:36,634
it's amazing. And I think. I think staying the course for wine

822
00:50:36,682 --> 00:50:40,442
folly is probably the best medicine things you. The ship will

823
00:50:40,466 --> 00:50:44,154
write itself eventually. And if you're there to. To catch

824
00:50:44,202 --> 00:50:47,882
the. The growth of wine knowledge and the people that are interested in

825
00:50:47,906 --> 00:50:51,722
seeking that knowledge, you'll be in the right place. It's. I

826
00:50:51,746 --> 00:50:55,562
know you have a lot to do today, a lot of content creation, and

827
00:50:55,586 --> 00:50:59,082
I do as well. Once I finished the studio kind of got

828
00:50:59,106 --> 00:51:02,794
upended recently, but we're working on it. Such a

829
00:51:02,802 --> 00:51:06,490
pleasure to meet you virtually and have this conversation. It is, it is.

830
00:51:06,530 --> 00:51:10,070
And we'll do it again, I hope, as things evolve. And

831
00:51:10,450 --> 00:51:14,042
wine Folly plus, which I'm going to check out, continues to

832
00:51:14,066 --> 00:51:16,210
evolve as well. Yeah. Thank you so much.