Be Inspired.
May 30, 2024

Sparkling Wine From South Africa? Yes, Please. Meet Danielle Coetzee.

Sparkling Wine From South Africa? Yes, Please. Meet Danielle Coetzee.

Wine Talks was honored to speak with Danielle Coetzee, who is coaxing elegant sparkling wines from the Cap Town appelation in South Africa using the traditional Champagne method and grapes. 1. Cap Classiques is the South African version of...

Wine Talks was honored to speak with Danielle Coetzee, who is coaxing elegant sparkling wines from the Cap Town appelation in South Africa using the traditional Champagne method and grapes.


1. Cap Classiques is the South African version of traditional method sparkling wines with specific legal requirements.
2. Danielle's family background influenced her passion for winemaking, particularly her uncle's stories of harvest and vineyard work.
3. Nsiki Biela is a notable black winemaker celebrated within the South African wine community.
4. South Africa's Cape Winelands feature a diverse landscape in a condensed area, contributing to a wide variety of wine flavors

Utterly charming and humble. Meet Danielle Coetzee.

In this episode of "Wine Talks," hosts Danielle Coetzee and Paul K delve deep into the intricacies and charm of the South African wine industry. They highlight the shift toward site-specific wines and quality production, emphasizing how wines can tell stories and embody personalities. Danielle shares her personal journey into winemaking, inspired by her uncle, and explains the complexities of Cap Classiques, South Africa's sparkling wines. They also discuss the impact of soil and region on the taste of wines, especially sparkling varieties.
The hosts explore inclusivity and diversity within the wine industry, spotlighting trailblazers like Nsiki Biela. Insights into pregnancy and motherhood within the field are provided, with Danielle sharing her own experiences. Paul K introduces a fun trivia question on wine's curative value, and they reflect on the need to make wine more accessible and inclusive to younger generations. Throughout the conversation, the importance of balancing innovation with tradition and maintaining high-quality, ethical, and sustainable production practices is underscored. The episode is a mix of personal anecdotes, technical wine discussions, and a celebration of the vibrant South African wine landscape.

Transcript
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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul Cain. We are in studio today about to

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have a conversation with Petri. I'm gonna say it wrong.

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Fentner, finter Fintner.

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Introductions in just a moment. Wine talks, of course, available on I heart radio,

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Pandora, Spotify, wherever you hang out for podcasting. Hey, have a listen

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to an episode that I did, and I brought this up earlier

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on a podcast, and I want you to listen to it because it's about Mae

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Ellien Lanc song. And she owns a winery in South Africa, which we're going to

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talk about today in a winery called Glenelly. But the important

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feature of this young woman at 98 years old is that she was

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alive and watched the Nazis literally shoot up her parents

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Chateau Pichon Longueville. So very interesting conversation.

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And you won't believe how her memory

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is rock solid of what happened, happen in those days as well. There's a

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conversation with my dad, 1972, he started

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this industry, literally started the direct to consumer wine

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industry in America. And I got to sit with him about

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two years ago, and we went through a lot of what happened and how he

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got here and how he came up with the idea of shipping wine to people.

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So have a listen to that, but not while we're here. Here to have a

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conversation with Petri. I'm not going to try it again. And the

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winery is. You nearly got it, huh?

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You nearly got it. I just avoided it.

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Le Chand is one of them, and the other one is Tadesh

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Tybush ta bush. Yes. Why is it. You know, it's interesting

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because the conversation I had one of your comrades was how

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synergistic the american sort of outlook on life

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is with the South African. There seems to be a very high comfort

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level, but I can never pronounce the words. What are the source of the south

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african? So, I mean, we more germanic in terms of our background.

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So that's why, for instance, if we, we understand Dutch

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or German or Flemish, we'd be very similar to

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Afrikaans. So that's why. I mean, Le Chan for us is

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more the french influence, because we french owned as a

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family, a french family that owns the company. But Thai

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Bosch would be very specific to. Not

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necessarily Afrikaans, but more in the, the south african

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way, because Thai Bosch without the. Because basically the end is

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Bosch. And that would be the end of Stellenbosch. And

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then Thai boss, without the ch

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is actually a unique fein Bose shrub that grows

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along the mountain ridges where we have the Thai Bosch property.

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So that's why we sort of wanted to get the sense of place between

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Thai Bosch. So it's in Stellenbosch. And the entire boss is

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Afrikaans for tough bush, because Fein Boss is quite a

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hardy, large thing that grows along the mountain ridges of the

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property. So between the two, Le Chan, which I'm assuming is the

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song chanceu singer

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chanteuse. I think it means the song.

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But it's owned by. The whole entire project is owned by

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a french family. Yes. So it's

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the Uru family and they. So that's why for us, for

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Leshan, we sort of wanted to play a bit on

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France meets South Africa. The label

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is totally wrong trying to figure that out. Yeah,

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well, the label is literally a rooster that's chanting. So le Shan

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means the chanting or the song of the rooster. And because the look

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and feel of it, it looks more earthy and farm like. And I mean, we

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south african farmers with french investors. So for

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us, I mean, obviously, if you can get investment in euros in South

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Africa, it's an easier ride to get the whole thing kick

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started. So the French. I mean, the french influence came from. They have a

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property in Provence where they do Rousseaille, obviously,

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as the art of. Or Provence is the art of Rousseau

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production. And they do a white and a red. And then they also have a

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property in San Ser, where they do 100% Sauvignon blanc.

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Wow. They also own a property in Sicily where they have

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a joint venture with the Planeta family. I'm pretty sure you've heard

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of Planeta, of course. What a diversity. Yeah. And then three

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properties in South Africa or in Stellenbosch. So the one property

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that we're not speaking about today is Pink Valley. It's

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100% resilient. I mean, the influence from that came from the proven sole

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property, that town. So for them, the whole wine thing

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is quite new. The first property was bought in 20.

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1718 or 17 in France,

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18 in South Africa. The first property. And then

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the sicilian property came. Blast. So, so this is

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like really recent stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's like

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the owners, they actually come from a more banking background.

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Oh, like the rust shields, sort of. And

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also have a renewable energy company. So

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definitely some old money mixed with new. And then

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they wanted to invest in

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wine farms. So now they own, what's it,

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3236 wine farms across

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France, Italy and South Africa. You think that

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the attraction to South Africa, besides the exchange rate

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of the rond, it's called the rand. Right? The rand, yeah. And the

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euro was the reason because there's this love affair with the

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terroir. They definitely enjoy the terroir, but

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they wanted to expand to the southern hemisphere. But you can imagine if they expanded

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to Australia or to Chile

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or Argentina. I mean, the time difference is massive. So for them to

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manage a winery, which is on the opposite side of the world, a complete different

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time zone, is not the option. And if you look at

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the south african run and the quality that you can get in

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South Africa for the price, I think that's the most glaring

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thing about the south african industry. And for them, they

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were that previous, or they were they connected

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with a guy, Bertrand, which was Skulk, who's our

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CEO. The two of them worked together for Rupert and Rothschild,

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and he was sort of the link between them

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investing in South Africa, and then they needed a jockey, and the jockey was skulk,

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and then the first properties was purchased. So the

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south african industry is. I mean, it's amazing for many different. There's a lot of

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French. I mean, I talked about May Allian Lang Song, who

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at 70, decided she was going to start a new winery

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in that glinelli. Is there a lot of French, not

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only owners, but influence? Yes,

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definitely. But I mean, for us, as soon as we could hit

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the international travels again, I mean, a lot of south

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african winemakers went to France, for instance, to gain some

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experience, because France is seen as sort of the heart of

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winemaking, or that's for us in terms of

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style. It's very similar towards our style. So it's more

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elegant, clean, fresh, fruit forward wines. And that's what we try to

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produce in South Africa, too. But we also have big groups, like at viny, which

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is also french owned, and they busy buying up a lot of

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properties in South Africa and then combining it as one

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big. But there's a lot of foreign investment.

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I mean, even Americans investing in big properties,

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Germans, French. So the south african market,

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obviously, you want the south african families

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to maintain or to own the properties for as long as possible. But

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I mean, obviously times are changing. And it's nice because the

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investment from abroad means that we have the opportunity

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to plant more clean, virus free

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vineyards. So with a virus free vine, you can deliver

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a better crop and produce a better wine. It's kind of interesting

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that South Africa's like that. Obviously,

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in California, you can buy. There are a lot of french owners, particularly in

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Oregon, there's a lot of french Burgundy makers, but try and do that in Burgundy,

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man, you cannot pierce that bale. It's very hard, and I

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find that fascinating, that in South Africa you can.

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So is there a difference stylistically between the two brands that you're talking

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about here, that the. Is the French Lachon, is it

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bordelaise style? Is it. What are you trying to do? Are you trying to create

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a stylistic differentiation between the two? Yes.

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So basically, our whole idea was. And that's

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why we split into three different brands, instead of doing a

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bunch of different labels under the same brand. Is

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the. The Lachan is two wines. So it's a Shenan blanc,

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which is. I mean, Shenan is very typical for South Africa.

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We have a lot of Chenin blanc planted. Yeah. And the reason for that is

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mainly because of brandy production. So Chenin is the most

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planted white grape variety, but most of it goes to distilling

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and brandy. So in South Africa, I mean, we. Drink in South Africa as well.

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South Africa, we like. Our drink of choice would be a

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brandy and coke. We call it sweet lips. I have never had

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a. Well, you should definitely have a brandy and coke.

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The Armagnac cognac thing, or is it just a whole different thing? Necessarily, it's

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different. Obviously, the entry level brandies would be just enjoy

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brandies. But if you go for ten year, twelve year, 15 year, I mean,

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it's more than capable to stand up against the proper cognac.

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So it's good quality brandy at the end of the day. But the nice

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thing about it is the schneblanc that we're doing is old vineyard. So because

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of the fact that it was used for brandy back in the day, there's a

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lot of old vineyard Shenin blanc, which is amazing. And when we purchased the

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property, we inherited the old block that we're producing, the Shenin.

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But the biggest distinction would be between the thai bush

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crescendo and the Le Shan.

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So the whole idea is Leshan is on one side of one

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ward in Stalinbosch, the pul quadrai. Thibausch is in another

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ward in Stalinbarsch called the Halderberg. So it's two

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completely different terroirs, two completely different styles.

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Le Shan is sort of. It's a mix between

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the new world and the old world, because it's old

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world in style, but it's new world in terms of the variety

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that we use, because it's a merlot, carbonyl franc, Cabernet

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Sauvignon, Shiraz and Sangiovese. Wow.

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You're really. You're about to say, you know, Bordeaux blend, and all of a sudden,

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you went off track. It's always like Syrah. It's a

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Bordeaux blend, Sangiovese. Together, we add the

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shiraz and the Sangiovese on the property, and there's a lot of

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Bordeaux production in South Africa at a very competitive

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price. So for us, I mean, it's not just another label based on a

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bottle. It's a new property, it's a new brand. So for us

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to be distinctively different, we had to do something distinctively

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different. And I always say the shiraz and the sanguvisi is the.

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It's the salt and pepper towards the final blend. And it's not like we stood

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there with lab coats and sang a gates. 2% of this or

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8%. That's a good vision. Yeah. We basically

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stood in front of the tank and we said, okay, well, this sort of tastes

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similar towards the thai bush, which it shouldn't. Let's do

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something different. And we had the shiraz and we had the sangiovese. We took it

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in, we wanted to play around with it, and it was more, take a glass.

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There's a bit of sangiovese. Put the border on top, swirl. It, freshens

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up the wine. Perfect. This is an enjoyable wine that you want to

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consume and drink lots of. It's good work if you can get it. Play around

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with letting things. I mean, how did that happen for you? What.

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What got you into doing this? Into wine making? Yeah.

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By the way, listeners, we didn't introduce him as the winemaker for the. Yeah,

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so, yeah, I'm the winemaker of the two brands. Yeah, yeah.

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So I always knew that I was never gonna, like,

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obviously, from sitting down and working constantly in front of a computer. Wouldn't

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have worked for me. I mean, my parents always told me in Afrikaans,

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I have Mira in my hat, which means I have ants in my bum.

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So I'm a very energetic boy, and I love

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farm life for what it is, because it's. I mean, you're working outside and you're

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working with a plant, which is amazing. And I actually played a game

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on Facebook called Farm Bill. And when you get to a certain

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level, you can plant a certain crop. And then I got to a certain

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level where the only way I could plant vineyards to produce grapes

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of, and it made my property look the prettiest. I just kept

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on planting vines and sort of getting the whole idea. And then

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we moved. Moved to Stellenbosch for high school. And then you're in

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the vineyards. I mean, you're constantly working around it because the vineyards are

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planted all around the town. And then it just triggered more

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keenness to actually find out what's the

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deeper vision around wine making. Then I studied at

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Stellenbosch University and then I started working immediately after

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my studies. Have you seen the movie Gran Turismo? I've seen

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it on Netflix at the moment, but I haven't watched it yet. I mean, it's

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a guy who played video games and he ends up being a race car driver.

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Yeah. And it's a true story. I saw that there's a guy playing Facebook, you

219
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know, planting vineyards, and it's. A true story now. No, I'm

220
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:20,874
like, Thai was Lashon in Pink Valley.

221
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Is that a career? Now,

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your comrades were talking about how the industry in South Africa is

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relatively new, which, you know, we had this. You said old world. New World is

224
00:13:32,278 --> 00:13:36,062
the interesting dichotomy there because it's old world has been

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around for a long time, but it's new world because much like the armenian

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wine market, there's new technologies and it's becoming of age.

227
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So what do you call it? But

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is that a popular career to look into in South

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Africa for a young man, a young woman? You see,

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I think if you just do it because you want to, it's not

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necessarily the most popular in terms of to go out and

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study, to answer the question firstly, but because

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there's a lot of different agricultural sort of degrees

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that you can go and study or paths that you can go into. I mean,

235
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you can do horticulture, viticulture, you can do winemaking, you

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can do a bit of everything. So it's not as popular. But I mean, we

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still about 30 to 50 people per year

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per class, which is quite a lot. If you think about the amount of

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wineries. It's not like there's thousands of wineries in South

240
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Africa. I mean, we only about 150 in

241
00:14:35,392 --> 00:14:38,768
Stellenbosch. I mean, 50 people per year.

242
00:14:38,936 --> 00:14:42,656
So obviously jobs aren't as plentiful as it

243
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should be because, I mean, there's one winemaker and maybe an

244
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assistant, depending on the size. But

245
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yet again, I mean, if you sort of slot in at the right spot,

246
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then it's a very enjoyable business. And you always tend to think that it's

247
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the. You over romanticize the fact that it's winemaking

248
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and you're constantly in the sale and you're in the vineyards. But

249
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I mean, it's. We always say it's not bad, we don't. It's easy to produce

250
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a wine. It's difficult to farm. It's not difficult to farm it, but you

251
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manage here in your art. It's easy to produce it, but it's difficult to

252
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sell it. And I mean myself as a winemaker, we also

253
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be the best tools to utilize for selling because you can

254
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tell the story, you understand the different vintages, you understand what you're

255
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speaking about, and you can present the wine in a proper manner.

256
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So that's why we go out and sell a lot. So

257
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for me, you do a bit of everything. I mean, you're marketing the wine, you're

258
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selling the wine, you producing the wine, you're farming the grapes, you're planting

259
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everything yourself. So it's nice to be able to tick off all of the boxes

260
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and not just focus on being a cellar at

261
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the seller constantly. Obviously, harvest time, you need to be there every

262
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single day. But that's why after harvest, we can come and do this

263
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and chat some ball. It's an irony of the

264
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industry. I mean, everybody has to deal with it, right? You're here in

265
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America with your bag full of wines to talk

266
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to people and to basically hand sell them the idea of

267
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south african wines, not that popular here. I

268
00:16:15,272 --> 00:16:18,976
sat in that room that you came from every Tuesday for

269
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35 years, tasted wine. I can tell you, I can bring it up on the

270
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computer. How many I tasted from South Africa. Not a lot. It's

271
00:16:26,072 --> 00:16:29,328
even much, much less than I actually put into the club at the time.

272
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But have a great affinity for them and enjoy them when I,

273
00:16:33,324 --> 00:16:36,492
when I see them. But I don't see them on the list very often. And

274
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that, that comes back to your point. This is that

275
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parts. Yes, it's not easy to make wine, but once you've planted

276
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the grapes and you pick them and harvest them, there's not a lot of pressure

277
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except not to screw it up. Yeah, but now you have all this inventory in

278
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the warehouse that you've bottled. You need to sell. That's the. And you got to

279
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pay for the next harvest. Exactly. So. So in your group, how

280
00:16:58,068 --> 00:17:01,676
many do you have? You have yourself. So it's in the

281
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seller. It would be myself, but I mean, it's myself and then

282
00:17:05,044 --> 00:17:08,436
skulk. He would obviously assist me. So it's

283
00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:12,012
basically who does the marketing? Well, we have a

284
00:17:12,108 --> 00:17:15,772
specific guy for sales. We have distributors

285
00:17:15,868 --> 00:17:19,420
in and around Cape Town, Joburg, Durban. And then we have

286
00:17:19,452 --> 00:17:23,276
reps in each bot. So basically you would go out

287
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,756
with the reps and you would go and sell the one. What we like to

288
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do most, and we can do it in Cape Town and Joburg because it's

289
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accessible for us. But we really do a lot of cult

290
00:17:34,156 --> 00:17:37,868
calling where you basically walk up with a bag

291
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and you say, okay, today I'm tackling this road. And you have

292
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,356
your four bottles of wine, which is the three brands, and you just

293
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knock on every single restaurant's door. And if they don't want to

294
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taste, then at least we just want to show them the labels so that

295
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they can see it. So it's a lot of storytelling and grafting

296
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:59,968
because, I mean, you need to tell the story. And there's many, many,

297
00:18:00,016 --> 00:18:03,824
many brands. So you sort of need to be different to get

298
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people's attention. And being a new brand is tough because it's a

299
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,560
constant hand sell. And, I mean, that's why in America, for instance, we have our

300
00:18:10,592 --> 00:18:14,288
importers, and they specifically focus on south

301
00:18:14,336 --> 00:18:17,920
african wine. So they would go out and present and chat to people and get

302
00:18:17,952 --> 00:18:21,632
the wine in at certain spots. So in each country,

303
00:18:21,688 --> 00:18:25,440
you have an importer that focuses on south african

304
00:18:25,472 --> 00:18:28,952
wine. And, I mean, they would come around and taste. And the nice thing about

305
00:18:28,968 --> 00:18:32,324
our industry is everyone wants to help each other out. So

306
00:18:32,664 --> 00:18:36,384
we've had it many times where even rights that you also

307
00:18:36,424 --> 00:18:40,032
had, where some of their reps would be in town and they would phone us

308
00:18:40,048 --> 00:18:43,264
and tell us, listen, okay, well, we have a rep here that you're obviously not

309
00:18:43,304 --> 00:18:47,120
exporting here yet. Maybe pop, we're going to send him over

310
00:18:47,152 --> 00:18:50,956
for tasting, see if you can get the listing and get it to another

311
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,740
piece of the country. So that's a great, you know, I've been

312
00:18:54,772 --> 00:18:58,452
helping there, trying to help. Well, I should back even that. I haven't done

313
00:18:58,468 --> 00:19:02,260
anything, actually, until now with the armenian industry, the armenian

314
00:19:02,292 --> 00:19:05,984
wine industry, because I'm armenian. But, you know, they don't have that

315
00:19:06,644 --> 00:19:10,132
camaraderie to support each other. You know, there's different vendors

316
00:19:10,188 --> 00:19:13,604
association in California. You know, Walla Walla, Washington has this

317
00:19:13,644 --> 00:19:17,372
amazing group of guys that's a commission owned by the cut

318
00:19:17,428 --> 00:19:21,140
by the government, and they raise taxes just to promote

319
00:19:21,212 --> 00:19:24,836
Walla Walla wines throughout the country. And here you guys have it

320
00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:28,316
sounds like to me, your headwinds in a smaller

321
00:19:28,420 --> 00:19:31,916
scale to the american wine market. Obviously, there's only

322
00:19:31,940 --> 00:19:35,676
150 wineries, et cetera is the same. You have to

323
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:39,484
take that bag and take those wines, walk into a restaurant tour,

324
00:19:39,524 --> 00:19:42,820
he's probably, or she's probably a paying the rear end and they don't have time

325
00:19:42,852 --> 00:19:46,418
for you and, you know, come back tomorrow or come back the next day or

326
00:19:46,466 --> 00:19:50,082
I already got enough wines or whatever. All the excuses. There's always

327
00:19:50,178 --> 00:19:53,970
all the objections. Always. Yeah. I mean, we always say sometimes

328
00:19:54,002 --> 00:19:57,602
you walk in and you walk out feeling like a king. Yeah.

329
00:19:57,658 --> 00:20:01,418
But there's also many times where you walk out like a scared dog

330
00:20:01,466 --> 00:20:05,098
with your tail between your legs. But, you

331
00:20:05,106 --> 00:20:08,866
know, that's a very interesting point. You're a winemaker. You know, let's just. Let's

332
00:20:08,890 --> 00:20:12,364
just sort of pigeonhole the idea that you're a farmer and

333
00:20:13,104 --> 00:20:16,272
you're into biology and chemistry and all the things that go along with having to

334
00:20:16,288 --> 00:20:19,684
make wine. And then there's a sales mentality, which is where I.

335
00:20:20,024 --> 00:20:23,496
I could never be a winemaker. I don't have the patience, but I'm out there.

336
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,248
I love to hear somebody tell me, no, that's, like, my favorite thing.

337
00:20:27,416 --> 00:20:30,880
Because that means that's time to start working. Exactly. You know, because if he said

338
00:20:30,912 --> 00:20:34,704
yes. All the time, excited to get them to actually bless that.

339
00:20:34,744 --> 00:20:38,112
Yeah, I win. I get to win. So that's the two different

340
00:20:38,168 --> 00:20:41,700
animals. It's hard to cross both paths. It is.

341
00:20:41,892 --> 00:20:45,500
But, I mean, we always say, and that's our quote, myself

342
00:20:45,572 --> 00:20:49,028
and Neil, as he's our sales. He works in sales for us,

343
00:20:49,196 --> 00:20:52,972
and we always say, listen, persistence beats resistance. That's

344
00:20:52,988 --> 00:20:56,620
true. Oh, I like that. So there's even. I mean, there's many restaurants.

345
00:20:56,692 --> 00:21:00,388
There's many restaurants where we would literally, like. They said

346
00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:04,164
no the first time, and we would go back every single

347
00:21:04,244 --> 00:21:07,676
week once. And the one guy literally said, he's like, listen, you guys are

348
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:11,476
so persistent. Please just come in and show me your bloody wine

349
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:15,316
so I can just get you off of our tail. And then

350
00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:19,132
we actually got the listing because, I mean, we went constantly and we asked for

351
00:21:19,148 --> 00:21:22,972
him every single time that we were in Cape Town, and it took a few

352
00:21:23,028 --> 00:21:26,500
weeks, but then we got the listing finally. So you proved

353
00:21:26,532 --> 00:21:30,212
that. Well, president Coolidge,

354
00:21:30,268 --> 00:21:33,944
persistence is omnipotent in America is on everything.

355
00:21:34,584 --> 00:21:38,392
Are there a lot of american wines on the wine list in Cape Town, in

356
00:21:38,408 --> 00:21:41,444
Stellenbosch, Joburg? Not a lot,

357
00:21:41,824 --> 00:21:45,296
really. American wines. We don't see a lot

358
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,640
australian wines. We don't see a lot french wines. We see a lot of

359
00:21:48,712 --> 00:21:52,264
spanish, italian, more the european

360
00:21:52,304 --> 00:21:55,704
wines. But definitely, if you go to wine

361
00:21:55,744 --> 00:21:59,518
shops, you'll definitely see american wines at

362
00:21:59,656 --> 00:22:03,162
the proper wine shops and the high eye in

363
00:22:03,298 --> 00:22:06,654
wine restaurants. So

364
00:22:07,674 --> 00:22:11,214
if you said that the graph of the industry

365
00:22:11,834 --> 00:22:15,578
in South Africa was at some point in its

366
00:22:15,626 --> 00:22:19,218
infancy, and it's childlike adolescence, whatever it is,

367
00:22:19,346 --> 00:22:23,122
it's not well, along compared to the rest. But there's so many movements

368
00:22:23,178 --> 00:22:26,154
throughout the country, throughout the world, that are

369
00:22:26,894 --> 00:22:30,550
not only biodynamic, organic, sustainability, all those things.

370
00:22:30,702 --> 00:22:34,494
There's packaging movements which drive me nuts. There's

371
00:22:34,534 --> 00:22:38,246
no alcohol movements. Where does South Africa land? In a

372
00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:41,894
sort of. I'm not going to call it wokeness of wine

373
00:22:41,934 --> 00:22:45,454
because that's not the right word in these contemporary

374
00:22:45,534 --> 00:22:49,334
trends. Which in my opinion are just blips

375
00:22:49,414 --> 00:22:53,206
on the radar of the 6000 year career or 12,000 year career

376
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:57,038
of wine. Where's South Africa with some of these sort of contemporary

377
00:22:57,086 --> 00:23:00,670
things? Yeah, so it's actually a good question.

378
00:23:00,742 --> 00:23:04,414
Because I mean, there's always a movement, then it's a natural

379
00:23:04,454 --> 00:23:07,942
wine, then it's organic, then it's biodynamic. And I

380
00:23:07,958 --> 00:23:11,782
mean, we farm, for instance, we farm 100% organic. All

381
00:23:11,798 --> 00:23:15,382
of our wines produce our wine 100% organic. But

382
00:23:15,438 --> 00:23:19,030
I think where we standing at the moment in terms of our market is

383
00:23:19,062 --> 00:23:22,838
because it was very known for bulk export

384
00:23:22,926 --> 00:23:26,702
back in the day. So it sort of got labeled as bulk wine at

385
00:23:26,718 --> 00:23:30,190
a cheap price. Where now the movement is shifting more to

386
00:23:30,222 --> 00:23:33,342
produce quality, but quality for

387
00:23:33,478 --> 00:23:37,174
price. So that's why South Africa at the moment is by far

388
00:23:37,214 --> 00:23:40,870
one of the sexiest or sexier wine countries

389
00:23:40,942 --> 00:23:44,534
in the world. Because the wines that are coming out of it is an

390
00:23:44,574 --> 00:23:48,152
excellent value for money. And that's we. I

391
00:23:48,168 --> 00:23:51,416
mean, obviously you get the people that want the organic or the

392
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,136
biodynamic, but I mean, we always say, listen, we can't be everything to anyone

393
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,072
or to everyone. This is our story, this is our product and this is what

394
00:23:59,088 --> 00:24:02,656
we're sticking with. So the movement is shifting just to

395
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,416
get the bulk. Well, obviously bulk will always say

396
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,928
a big market, but to shift to bottled wine that's better priced

397
00:24:10,056 --> 00:24:13,792
at better quality. I think that's an important. There's a couple things you said that

398
00:24:13,808 --> 00:24:16,504
really important. I don't remember

399
00:24:18,364 --> 00:24:22,116
having the opinion that South Africa

400
00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:25,860
was a bulk market. And that doesn't mean it wasn't. I'm just saying the

401
00:24:25,892 --> 00:24:29,544
perception here. Starting in 1988,

402
00:24:29,884 --> 00:24:33,304
I've never had that feeling. Provence sometimes

403
00:24:34,884 --> 00:24:38,556
Lodi in California had that feeling. Puglia in Italy had

404
00:24:38,580 --> 00:24:42,022
that sort of moniker, but I never sensed that.

405
00:24:42,148 --> 00:24:45,922
But what's interesting is all the regions I just mentioned have grown out

406
00:24:45,938 --> 00:24:49,514
of that. Puglia now is making amazing near

407
00:24:49,554 --> 00:24:53,266
D'Avala and Aglianico. And then you've got

408
00:24:53,290 --> 00:24:56,882
Lodi, which was famous for

409
00:24:57,018 --> 00:25:00,754
a credence Clearwater song and now is very popular

410
00:25:00,794 --> 00:25:04,482
and has very old vines to work with the Provence is the same. I mean,

411
00:25:04,498 --> 00:25:08,282
they're making everything in Provence now. I mean, that's just rose. It's all kinds of

412
00:25:08,298 --> 00:25:12,080
stuff. If the south african

413
00:25:12,112 --> 00:25:15,400
industry is trying to climb out of that, they certainly have a really good shot

414
00:25:15,432 --> 00:25:18,856
at doing that. I never sensed that from

415
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,648
vendors again. We didn't see a ton. Yeah. And the thing

416
00:25:22,696 --> 00:25:25,804
too is a lot of the big

417
00:25:26,224 --> 00:25:29,672
cooperative sellers aren't cooperative

418
00:25:29,728 --> 00:25:33,488
sellers anymore. They basically fell down. So back in the day, it was

419
00:25:33,496 --> 00:25:36,860
just a bunch of co ops producing the biggest bulk of

420
00:25:36,892 --> 00:25:40,596
thal industry. And you had Gauvio Fuer, which was sort of the

421
00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:44,396
monopoly, the style, and those were the biggest buyers of the

422
00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:47,932
bulk. They sort of just added up and sold it as cheap wine.

423
00:25:48,068 --> 00:25:51,436
Where now all of the farms that were farmed or delivered or

424
00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:55,236
that delivered wine for the cooperatives, I mean,

425
00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:58,956
it's good site. So it's being bought up by

426
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:02,988
potential winemakers for smaller brands that are

427
00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:06,956
replanting, investing some money in proper quality grapes. And what you're

428
00:26:06,980 --> 00:26:10,356
seeing now is more movement towards quality

429
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,068
and hectares being planted, which is fantastic, but virus

430
00:26:14,116 --> 00:26:17,220
free. Yeah, that's huge, too. No phylloxera.

431
00:26:17,292 --> 00:26:21,024
Yeah. So here's what happened here

432
00:26:22,524 --> 00:26:25,580
and worldwide, but I'm wondering if there's an

433
00:26:25,612 --> 00:26:29,240
influence and negative influence as it was in

434
00:26:29,272 --> 00:26:33,112
America, and that is 50 cent a liter

435
00:26:33,288 --> 00:26:37,056
wines coming out of the centership. Spain, whites and reds,

436
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,364
you know, just horrible stuff. But,

437
00:26:41,144 --> 00:26:44,256
you know, and they bring it in those 20,000 liter

438
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,864
tetra things, and they bottle it here,

439
00:26:48,024 --> 00:26:51,744
they make it under, who knows? Maybe it's a hundred different labels.

440
00:26:51,784 --> 00:26:54,976
They bottle the same, you know, Valencia White.

441
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,448
Right. They spend money on packaging,

442
00:26:58,616 --> 00:27:02,136
they send it out to all the online wine clubs and all the

443
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560
organizations, and it's terrible. And a consumer goes

444
00:27:05,592 --> 00:27:09,216
online, I'm going to join this club, it's interesting. And then they get this wine,

445
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,016
they go, this isn't very good. It's dollar 15. I'm not going to buy

446
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,640
from now on. I'm not going to trust anybody online and I'm going to go

447
00:27:16,672 --> 00:27:19,784
back to it. So have you ever, have you seen anything like that in South

448
00:27:19,824 --> 00:27:22,784
Africa where there's just branded crap?

449
00:27:23,244 --> 00:27:27,084
Yeah. Yes. I mean, obviously you see branded crap,

450
00:27:27,164 --> 00:27:30,612
but I mean branded crap.

451
00:27:30,788 --> 00:27:34,524
The nice thing, I mean, for us, the. The cheaper labels in South Africa,

452
00:27:34,604 --> 00:27:37,964
there's obviously very, very entry level, which is

453
00:27:38,004 --> 00:27:41,564
undrinkable. Sorry, I'm saying undrinkable, not

454
00:27:41,604 --> 00:27:45,184
as enjoyable. But if you go to South Africa,

455
00:27:45,884 --> 00:27:48,454
you can buy excellent quality

456
00:27:49,394 --> 00:27:53,226
Chenin Blanc, Sauvignon blanc. Red blends

457
00:27:53,370 --> 00:27:56,850
for anything between 60 and 80 rand. And, I mean, that's

458
00:27:56,882 --> 00:28:00,730
anything split between three to $5, really, a

459
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,586
bottle, and it's more than drinkable. Wow. So that's the nice thing.

460
00:28:04,610 --> 00:28:07,250
I mean, for us. I always say, if I want to go out and drink,

461
00:28:07,362 --> 00:28:10,666
even though I'm a winemaker, I'm not a fussy wine drinker. If you can give

462
00:28:10,690 --> 00:28:14,450
me a cheap, fresh, and fruity chenin blanche, 70 rand

463
00:28:14,482 --> 00:28:18,306
a bottle, I'll finish the whole bottle. Yeah. Sit next

464
00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:21,894
to the pool, next to the ocean, and drink some wine and have some.

465
00:28:22,674 --> 00:28:26,434
Because almost invariably, if

466
00:28:26,474 --> 00:28:29,794
at $5 here, six, you know, maybe six is the

467
00:28:29,834 --> 00:28:33,522
threshold, it's gonna be sugared up junk.

468
00:28:33,658 --> 00:28:36,826
I mean, I don't think on a regular basis they can produce anything other than

469
00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:40,466
that. Yeah, that's. But that's the nice thing about South Africa, is

470
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:44,450
for that price, you're already going into the 100 rand tier. Wow.

471
00:28:44,522 --> 00:28:48,234
And for 100 rand a bottle, you're going to start drinking

472
00:28:48,314 --> 00:28:51,986
excellent quality wine for the price. For 150

473
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:54,734
rand a bottle, that's sort of the

474
00:28:55,314 --> 00:28:59,154
striking range. That's where you want to be. Because any 150 rand

475
00:28:59,194 --> 00:29:02,954
bottle you'll buy will most probably be good quality. And

476
00:29:03,034 --> 00:29:06,884
then as soon as you start going up, I mean, obviously, there's many

477
00:29:06,924 --> 00:29:10,412
different price categories stretching all the way to 3000 rand a

478
00:29:10,428 --> 00:29:14,060
bottle, which would be the most expensive? I mean, that would be about

479
00:29:14,132 --> 00:29:17,820
$300. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

480
00:29:17,892 --> 00:29:21,664
No, that's $1,500. Sorry, that's. And that's. That's expensive.

481
00:29:23,044 --> 00:29:26,684
$150. So my math's right.

482
00:29:26,804 --> 00:29:29,460
If you can get the public

483
00:29:29,652 --> 00:29:33,168
enjoying. When you say quality, I'm

484
00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:36,964
expecting you to say, or mean, properly made,

485
00:29:37,304 --> 00:29:40,864
honest expression. We're not putting

486
00:29:40,904 --> 00:29:44,272
flavoring agents or defoaming agents, or all the different things you can put in a

487
00:29:44,288 --> 00:29:47,992
wine to. To pump up the acid or pump up the sugar. I just got

488
00:29:48,008 --> 00:29:51,616
a nice representation. Yeah. Is that what you're talking

489
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,440
about? Definite. Well, for sure. It's not juiced up

490
00:29:55,472 --> 00:29:58,632
with sugars or any additives. It's just

491
00:29:58,768 --> 00:30:02,490
fresh, fruity, bone dry wines, which is

492
00:30:02,522 --> 00:30:06,362
amazing. And the nice thing about that price bracket is the wines are such a

493
00:30:06,378 --> 00:30:10,034
good example of the specific variety. So

494
00:30:10,154 --> 00:30:13,754
it's always nice to taste the 60 rand

495
00:30:13,794 --> 00:30:17,530
bottles and to compare to something that's 150 rand. And I always

496
00:30:17,562 --> 00:30:20,618
say that's where the crux comes in, because, I mean, you need to be able,

497
00:30:20,666 --> 00:30:23,922
if you can pick up the difference. Many people always ask me, how can I

498
00:30:23,938 --> 00:30:27,688
become better at tasting wine? And I tell them, buy a 60 rand bottle compared

499
00:30:27,736 --> 00:30:31,272
to 150 rand bottle, and then sort of get to the point where you can

500
00:30:31,288 --> 00:30:35,128
say, okay, this is what quality should taste like and this is what it shouldn't.

501
00:30:35,296 --> 00:30:39,048
But for us, that lower price bracket is a. It's obviously a

502
00:30:39,056 --> 00:30:42,704
very competitive market at the price, but the quality for that price

503
00:30:42,784 --> 00:30:46,624
is incredible. It's not like to come to just come

504
00:30:46,664 --> 00:30:50,464
just to experience that, because we don't get to do that here. Exactly. Well,

505
00:30:50,584 --> 00:30:54,080
you have to come and visit us in South Africa. Well, no, I had plans

506
00:30:54,112 --> 00:30:57,706
after I had my conversation with May Elian and I like

507
00:30:57,810 --> 00:31:01,522
it too hard this quarter. We're coming to Europe.

508
00:31:01,618 --> 00:31:04,946
Actually, I was telling one of your friends that we're going to be in

509
00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:08,722
Paris in June, early June, and I thought, maybe I'll just

510
00:31:08,778 --> 00:31:12,290
book a flight to Stellenbosch, not tell my

511
00:31:12,322 --> 00:31:16,146
wife. She thinks we're coming home. And then

512
00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:19,974
from there, you go in a small little wine tour in South Africa.

513
00:31:20,614 --> 00:31:22,394
Divorced by the time I got done with that.

514
00:31:24,294 --> 00:31:27,834
But that was an interesting comment you just said, which is

515
00:31:28,414 --> 00:31:31,854
people ask. This is a very important thing about our industry

516
00:31:31,934 --> 00:31:35,678
now, particularly in sort of the way

517
00:31:35,726 --> 00:31:39,318
social networking is working and the way some of the current

518
00:31:39,406 --> 00:31:43,246
pundits, and I'm going to point to millennials as well, in this part

519
00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:46,154
of thing, there's wine.

520
00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:50,394
The aristocracy of wine. The old school snobbery of

521
00:31:50,434 --> 00:31:54,170
wine is being combated against, which is fine. I have no problem with that.

522
00:31:54,202 --> 00:31:57,894
I get it. I don't know how you do that. So if somebody says,

523
00:31:58,674 --> 00:32:02,354
how do I get better at tasting wine? That's a true

524
00:32:02,394 --> 00:32:05,738
interest in trying to understand what wine is, because once you ask that

525
00:32:05,786 --> 00:32:08,934
question, you're going to start sort of

526
00:32:09,794 --> 00:32:13,552
experiencing your palate and testing your palate on what you taste.

527
00:32:13,738 --> 00:32:17,532
And guess what? You've just fallen into the

528
00:32:17,548 --> 00:32:21,316
aristocracy of wine. I don't know how you separate them. Yeah. And

529
00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:24,876
as soon as you're there, I mean, people get. As soon as they start tasting

530
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:28,676
and as soon as they become better at their craft. I mean, a palate is

531
00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:32,304
definitely something that you can work on. When we studied at university,

532
00:32:32,644 --> 00:32:36,180
I mean, I was still. I was drinking box wine. Sweet

533
00:32:36,212 --> 00:32:39,580
Rizai. Because you're a student and you fill it up with ice and it's swimming

534
00:32:39,612 --> 00:32:43,338
pool wine. Off you go, one litre. Thanks for coming. But, I

535
00:32:43,346 --> 00:32:47,154
mean, now I produce a high end, ultra premium rousseau.

536
00:32:47,194 --> 00:32:50,698
So the best is just to get out there, taste it.

537
00:32:50,826 --> 00:32:54,666
If you walk past the fruit basket, pick it up and smell it, because

538
00:32:54,850 --> 00:32:58,362
all the different scents and tastes that you want to start

539
00:32:58,418 --> 00:33:02,266
figuring out at the end. And I mean, anyone

540
00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:05,786
can start, can start tasting wine. And the nice thing about wine

541
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:09,298
is it's. It's always something that you can speak about

542
00:33:09,426 --> 00:33:13,122
with. You can speak online with anyone. So it's always a

543
00:33:13,138 --> 00:33:16,906
nice point of entry in a conversation, especially in

544
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:20,334
terms of business or your next girlfriend's father.

545
00:33:20,674 --> 00:33:24,474
Yeah. You can always speak about why everyone

546
00:33:24,554 --> 00:33:27,814
loves it. You just turn a thought, which is interesting. Why

547
00:33:29,634 --> 00:33:33,294
is it that, in fact, somebody sent me a picture. They were in,

548
00:33:34,054 --> 00:33:37,750
they were in Singapore and they had dinner with Rudy, the guy

549
00:33:37,782 --> 00:33:41,622
that got busted for faking all the wine. And he

550
00:33:41,638 --> 00:33:45,334
apparently has an incredible palate. They had

551
00:33:45,374 --> 00:33:49,142
five blind Bordeaux. They gave him the list of what five they

552
00:33:49,158 --> 00:33:52,574
were and what vintages they were, and he nailed every one of them. That's very

553
00:33:52,614 --> 00:33:56,062
hard to do, even for somebody who's tasted lots of wine. But the point I'm

554
00:33:56,078 --> 00:33:59,502
making is the guy was there in Singapore to raise money for a project here

555
00:33:59,518 --> 00:34:02,754
in Los Angeles. Big, big money apartment building.

556
00:34:03,734 --> 00:34:07,486
And the lineup of the wines they tasted that night

557
00:34:07,550 --> 00:34:11,030
was like DRc Lafitte, you know, all

558
00:34:11,062 --> 00:34:14,554
the greatest stuff. And I thought, based on what you just said,

559
00:34:14,854 --> 00:34:18,438
why is that? Why is that level of

560
00:34:18,486 --> 00:34:21,990
quality or level of perceived aristocracy or

561
00:34:22,022 --> 00:34:25,766
value so important to a business dinner or a

562
00:34:25,790 --> 00:34:28,941
wedding or a celebration? Maybe it's even the premium

563
00:34:28,997 --> 00:34:32,765
champagne. But you don't do that. You don't celebrate that way with

564
00:34:32,789 --> 00:34:36,565
other beverages. And that's an interesting thought. Yeah, that's. Yeah, let's

565
00:34:36,589 --> 00:34:40,193
find that, you know, how do you do that? I mean, it's not like you,

566
00:34:40,813 --> 00:34:44,189
I wouldn't necessarily buy myself a bottle of proper

567
00:34:44,261 --> 00:34:47,821
whiskey if for celebration. I would rather

568
00:34:47,997 --> 00:34:51,633
open up a few nice bottles of wine, enjoy it.

569
00:34:51,933 --> 00:34:55,341
Yeah. It's actually something nice to think about because I think in

570
00:34:55,357 --> 00:34:59,152
the people have just come to tend to think

571
00:34:59,208 --> 00:35:02,760
that wine is associated with

572
00:35:02,952 --> 00:35:06,720
a celebration. Yeah, right. And that, which

573
00:35:06,752 --> 00:35:10,000
is nice because you elevate it. You elevate it.

574
00:35:10,112 --> 00:35:13,564
So the consumer in South Africa,

575
00:35:14,144 --> 00:35:16,964
is there a wine culture? Like,

576
00:35:17,904 --> 00:35:21,168
I had a party at our house Friday night. A bunch of guys,

577
00:35:21,256 --> 00:35:25,008
mostly well off guys, guys that have, you know, a career that have done well.

578
00:35:25,136 --> 00:35:28,944
And I had to build the seller. Oddly, when I sold

579
00:35:28,984 --> 00:35:32,824
my company, the buyer wanted nothing to do with my

580
00:35:32,944 --> 00:35:36,592
good stuff. I mean, nothing. Ground crude fees, classified

581
00:35:36,648 --> 00:35:39,976
growth, whatever I had here, because I was selling it, didn't want any of it.

582
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,072
So I had 2500 bottles. I had to find a place for it. And I

583
00:35:43,088 --> 00:35:45,872
don't have a cellar at home. I always had one here at the office. Right?

584
00:35:45,968 --> 00:35:49,520
Yeah. And so here now this beautiful rack. And they're walking

585
00:35:49,552 --> 00:35:53,094
by. They all knew

586
00:35:53,434 --> 00:35:57,218
when they looked at the rack, what was there. They could, you know, they just.

587
00:35:57,306 --> 00:36:01,130
They knew. Is there. Is there. Because the industry's

588
00:36:01,202 --> 00:36:04,874
not new, but it's younger. Is there a wine culture in South

589
00:36:04,914 --> 00:36:08,706
Africa? People definitely. I mean, South Africa

590
00:36:08,810 --> 00:36:12,546
people consume wine on the regular. Some are more

591
00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:16,378
per capita than Americans. Yeah, probably. And I mean, the one thing about South

592
00:36:16,426 --> 00:36:20,258
Africa is it's anything like proper wine list. I mean, the only reason why people

593
00:36:20,306 --> 00:36:23,954
look at a bottle of Lafitte and immediately know it's. It's a very expensive

594
00:36:24,034 --> 00:36:27,426
wine is because, I mean, the story has been built up for so many years,

595
00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:31,242
and the whole hype around all these first growths and grand Cru

596
00:36:31,378 --> 00:36:35,218
has been there for as long as or much more years

597
00:36:35,346 --> 00:36:39,146
than South Africa. And that's the thing with the south african market, is it's still

598
00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:42,586
slowly but surely getting to the point where it's

599
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:46,484
standing up as the quality and the big brands.

600
00:36:46,524 --> 00:36:50,268
And people are aware of the brands in South Africa, and

601
00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:53,900
then the wine drinking community is big. I mean, it's very

602
00:36:53,932 --> 00:36:57,268
fashionable at the moment, and there's a lot of wine bars opening up.

603
00:36:57,316 --> 00:37:01,116
And so people want to go out, they want to sit, they want to

604
00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:04,828
taste a few different glasses, and they'll even play. They'll pay a higher

605
00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:08,716
price for a better quality glass than just to drink your normal

606
00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:12,546
table wine. And especially eating out, people will always

607
00:37:12,610 --> 00:37:16,450
order a bottle of wine instead of a few beers. So

608
00:37:16,522 --> 00:37:20,266
the wine and the gastronomical thing about around wine

609
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:23,730
in South Africa is big being understood. And, I mean,

610
00:37:23,762 --> 00:37:27,482
it's. In South Africa, we, especially in Cape Town, we

611
00:37:27,498 --> 00:37:30,618
spoil it for choice, because when you have all of the good restaurants and you

612
00:37:30,626 --> 00:37:34,378
have all of the wine farms in Jo Berg, which is high up and

613
00:37:34,466 --> 00:37:37,794
north in the middle of the country, they don't have the wine

614
00:37:37,834 --> 00:37:41,672
farms, but they have more bargaining power in terms of

615
00:37:41,728 --> 00:37:45,504
spending money. And then there they consume four or five times the amount

616
00:37:45,544 --> 00:37:49,176
of wine as the Capetonians. So the wine drinking

617
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,484
community is checking that. I gotta look that up because the

618
00:37:53,024 --> 00:37:56,752
wine consumption per capita, America is like 54th in the world.

619
00:37:56,808 --> 00:38:00,600
And you know, the number one consumption per capita country

620
00:38:00,632 --> 00:38:04,000
in the. Yes, you're the only. Oh, my

621
00:38:04,032 --> 00:38:07,728
God. You're the only person who's never know. That's my favorite trivia

622
00:38:07,776 --> 00:38:11,528
question of all time. You're the only person who's ever answered that a

623
00:38:11,536 --> 00:38:15,208
lot. Really. That's really funny. That's it there. That's really

624
00:38:15,256 --> 00:38:17,284
funny. Full marks for me for today.

625
00:38:19,744 --> 00:38:23,472
What is the directive, then, from the french family to you, as

626
00:38:23,488 --> 00:38:26,984
the winemaker? Produce the best I can. We want to make money.

627
00:38:27,024 --> 00:38:30,512
What, what's. Well, for now, I mean, obviously there was a massive capital

628
00:38:30,608 --> 00:38:34,348
investment. It's not going to. We're not going to win that back immediately.

629
00:38:34,516 --> 00:38:38,252
But for them, it's. I mean, it's still a business and obviously

630
00:38:38,268 --> 00:38:42,024
the business needs to tick over. So the. We

631
00:38:42,324 --> 00:38:45,948
need. The honeymoon phase of spending money is gone now.

632
00:38:46,036 --> 00:38:49,116
Yeah. Now it's the time for us to get out there and to get the

633
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:52,572
product sold. So the property, it's definitely

634
00:38:52,628 --> 00:38:56,268
firstly an investment. But, I mean, for them, the

635
00:38:56,316 --> 00:38:59,834
owner once said it's. For him, it almost feels like

636
00:39:00,294 --> 00:39:03,918
in South Africa, he said he thinks that

637
00:39:03,966 --> 00:39:07,606
France is more third world than South Africa. Because South Africa, we actually

638
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:11,366
get stuff done, which is true, because we go getters, we want to

639
00:39:11,390 --> 00:39:15,118
go out and we want to get the product out and. Are you trying to

640
00:39:15,126 --> 00:39:18,662
say French is socialism? I'm not saying they're slow,

641
00:39:18,798 --> 00:39:22,486
saying maybe it takes a bit longer for something to be fixed, especially. I mean,

642
00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:26,252
when I was working in Provence, pipe breaks, it takes two, three weeks for

643
00:39:26,268 --> 00:39:30,060
someone to come. And South Africa, it's done on the

644
00:39:30,092 --> 00:39:33,508
same day or the next day.

645
00:39:33,676 --> 00:39:37,292
So the vision for the French is obviously to expand their

646
00:39:37,348 --> 00:39:40,996
portfolio, which was the southern hemisphere,

647
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,900
but to produce wines of distinction,

648
00:39:44,932 --> 00:39:48,380
and I mean, Thai bush, we want to grow to one of

649
00:39:48,412 --> 00:39:52,048
the most best known Bordeaux style

650
00:39:52,096 --> 00:39:55,616
blends in South Africa. And Lachon,

651
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,520
that's the wine. We own a big property. It's the biggest property of the

652
00:39:59,552 --> 00:40:03,244
three. It's 140 acres, which. 75

653
00:40:03,584 --> 00:40:07,216
acres. So it's big for south african properties

654
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,032
and we want Lachon to grow

655
00:40:11,208 --> 00:40:14,992
and to be seen as one of the strongest brands in South Africa. So is

656
00:40:15,008 --> 00:40:18,776
that correct? Because they have wineries in Sicily, Italy. I mean,

657
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,450
the Sicily and the provence and other parts of the world. Has

658
00:40:22,482 --> 00:40:26,186
that created an instant logistical chain to

659
00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:29,874
follow that you can take out of South Africa into these other

660
00:40:29,914 --> 00:40:32,626
parts of the world? Yes. Is that part of it? So that's what we do.

661
00:40:32,650 --> 00:40:36,378
I mean, we use the properties to distribute

662
00:40:36,426 --> 00:40:39,930
our wine and to sell our wine from. But for them, the idea

663
00:40:39,962 --> 00:40:43,090
was pretty much to get all of the

664
00:40:43,122 --> 00:40:46,970
properties and to combine everything and to get it out to

665
00:40:47,002 --> 00:40:50,610
market as competitors in international trade.

666
00:40:50,682 --> 00:40:53,898
So we obviously use the urus, or the

667
00:40:53,946 --> 00:40:57,722
distribution of our wine, into France, through them

668
00:40:57,778 --> 00:41:01,314
into Sicily and from France, they distribute throughout

669
00:41:01,354 --> 00:41:05,034
Europe. So it's an easier way to get the wine to the other

670
00:41:05,074 --> 00:41:08,786
side of the world and to distribute it from there. Sounds like

671
00:41:08,810 --> 00:41:12,210
a brilliant plan, actually. I've never heard wine. It's like sitting

672
00:41:12,242 --> 00:41:16,070
around a campfire, and this is the next big

673
00:41:16,102 --> 00:41:18,270
thing. This is how we're going to do it. This is how we're going to

674
00:41:18,302 --> 00:41:21,990
structure it. I mean, he picked a tough racket, but a

675
00:41:22,022 --> 00:41:25,750
brilliant scheme because logistics are so difficult in this trade right

676
00:41:25,782 --> 00:41:29,502
now. What happened during COVID in South Africa

677
00:41:29,638 --> 00:41:33,126
with wine? Well, first of all, what happened? Was there a complete

678
00:41:33,150 --> 00:41:36,710
shutdown? Lockdown. COVID was. I mean, it was a

679
00:41:36,742 --> 00:41:40,094
complete, complete shutdown. We weren't allowed to

680
00:41:40,134 --> 00:41:43,778
sell any alcohol, really, or any

681
00:41:43,826 --> 00:41:47,258
cigarettes. So basically everything closed down for

682
00:41:47,386 --> 00:41:50,922
about four or five months. Completely? Well, at

683
00:41:50,938 --> 00:41:54,306
least four or five months. You can imagine. Well, it was probably more. I can't

684
00:41:54,330 --> 00:41:58,034
even remember. So COVID was. I mean, our first vintage

685
00:41:58,074 --> 00:42:01,730
of the pink Valley, which is our rosai. We basically

686
00:42:01,802 --> 00:42:05,258
couldn't get half of it or 10th of it sold

687
00:42:05,306 --> 00:42:09,042
because everything was shut down. I think we were the biggest consumers of our

688
00:42:09,058 --> 00:42:12,882
own product because we were staying on the property. We had

689
00:42:12,898 --> 00:42:16,642
the whole cellar full of wine, so we could drink a

690
00:42:16,658 --> 00:42:20,146
lot of it, but, I mean, we couldn't sell it at all. And if you

691
00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:23,722
could have sold it, bootlegged it, whatever. But, I mean, if they caught you, you'd

692
00:42:23,738 --> 00:42:27,306
have lost your liquor license, and then you're in bigger, bigger shit when

693
00:42:27,330 --> 00:42:30,666
you actually have to start reselling again. So COVID times were

694
00:42:30,690 --> 00:42:34,498
tough. Luckily, our reds wasn't launched yet, so it

695
00:42:34,506 --> 00:42:37,850
was launched after COVID. But COVID killed a lot

696
00:42:37,882 --> 00:42:41,094
of properties in Stellenbosch or in South

697
00:42:41,134 --> 00:42:44,798
Africa as a whole. Well, that's the problem you guys have there. In South

698
00:42:44,846 --> 00:42:48,486
Africa, particularly Stellenbosch, your governor doesn't own a winery.

699
00:42:48,590 --> 00:42:52,086
Yeah. And so when COVID. When lockdown came to

700
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:55,918
LA in March of 2019, I think,

701
00:42:55,966 --> 00:42:59,354
right. Or 2020, the.

702
00:43:00,374 --> 00:43:03,726
I was calling on the phone my other

703
00:43:03,790 --> 00:43:06,694
vendors, because a lot of my vendors that sold wine

704
00:43:07,234 --> 00:43:10,674
sold food, and I had one in particular, brings in really fine italian

705
00:43:10,714 --> 00:43:14,534
foods. I was turning my wine shop into a deli,

706
00:43:14,834 --> 00:43:18,554
you know, so it'd be a market, so I would stay open. Yeah. And

707
00:43:18,714 --> 00:43:22,282
an hour after that announcement, Gavin Newsom, our governor,

708
00:43:22,338 --> 00:43:26,134
announced that wineries were exempt from this problem.

709
00:43:27,034 --> 00:43:30,866
Why? He owns two wineries or his partners in two big wineries in

710
00:43:30,890 --> 00:43:34,530
Napa. Well, I have a winery license here, so

711
00:43:34,562 --> 00:43:37,914
I'm like, cool, I'm open. Right? And then we

712
00:43:37,954 --> 00:43:41,562
did 30 or 40% more volume in those twelve

713
00:43:41,618 --> 00:43:45,254
months than we did the previous twelve months. But oddly,

714
00:43:45,794 --> 00:43:49,146
it plummeted. Literally to the day

715
00:43:49,170 --> 00:43:52,434
that confinement was over, my

716
00:43:52,474 --> 00:43:56,174
sales plummeted to below 2019,

717
00:43:56,934 --> 00:44:00,726
considerably below. And so it was a good thing for

718
00:44:00,750 --> 00:44:04,554
a while. It was a really bad thing. And it.

719
00:44:05,054 --> 00:44:08,822
It really forced. Well, I'm 35 years into it.

720
00:44:08,838 --> 00:44:12,670
I'm tired anyway. But it did sort of force our hand, my wife

721
00:44:12,702 --> 00:44:15,902
and I, to decide to sell the company, because the year after

722
00:44:15,958 --> 00:44:19,510
that, it had not rebounded. It was very tough. Yeah,

723
00:44:19,542 --> 00:44:23,134
COVID was tough times. And luckily it's. It's passed by

724
00:44:23,174 --> 00:44:26,780
now. But, I mean, imagine not being able to sell. I mean,

725
00:44:26,812 --> 00:44:30,660
you saw. I can't imagine that we were basically. There was some time

726
00:44:30,692 --> 00:44:34,036
where we weren't even allowed to drive on the roads. It was like a

727
00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:37,908
complete shutdown. Wow. We weren't allowed to do anything, so

728
00:44:38,076 --> 00:44:41,732
it would have helped. And even exporting, we couldn't export. We

729
00:44:41,748 --> 00:44:45,564
couldn't do nothing. You couldn't put one. Basically just sitting

730
00:44:45,604 --> 00:44:49,276
there waiting for the bowl lockdown to

731
00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:53,046
sort of. To fees off. How

732
00:44:53,070 --> 00:44:55,674
would anybody survive that? You still got to pay the bills.

733
00:44:57,134 --> 00:45:00,886
Yeah, well, luckily for us, we had the french owners, which were

734
00:45:00,910 --> 00:45:04,486
quite not relaxed about the whole thing. But

735
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:08,350
when they said, it's fine, let's just get through this, and then we sort of

736
00:45:08,382 --> 00:45:12,102
restructure and kickstart with the new bang. But, I

737
00:45:12,118 --> 00:45:15,510
mean, if we had all of our other wines on the market, we would have

738
00:45:15,542 --> 00:45:19,334
also been in a very difficult position. Basically not making any

739
00:45:19,374 --> 00:45:23,216
revenue for a few months, period. Which is crazy.

740
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,992
That's nuts. I mean, if we had to shut down now, it will probably be

741
00:45:26,008 --> 00:45:29,444
the end of us because I think the patients would be over there.

742
00:45:30,744 --> 00:45:33,984
They'd be done with it. Exactly. So we're almost out of time

743
00:45:34,024 --> 00:45:37,444
already. What is on the horizon?

744
00:45:38,144 --> 00:45:41,976
Are we far enough along to be thinking about the future? Not other than what

745
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,924
we're making and how we're farming, but

746
00:45:46,064 --> 00:45:49,244
ideas for varietals, blends,

747
00:45:49,624 --> 00:45:52,764
new brands. Are we having those conversations yet?

748
00:45:53,264 --> 00:45:56,880
For now. Because we. I mean, because we knew in all three of our

749
00:45:56,912 --> 00:46:00,696
brands, we just want to focus on what we're doing at the moment and

750
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,480
to get each brand to the point where we can say, this is Pink

751
00:46:04,512 --> 00:46:07,904
Valley, this is Le Shawn, this is Thai Bush, and it's a very dominant

752
00:46:08,064 --> 00:46:11,888
wine or brand in each category. So

753
00:46:12,016 --> 00:46:15,692
not any new brands necessarily.

754
00:46:15,868 --> 00:46:19,692
Obviously, as the Lashan grow, we'll have to start thinking of

755
00:46:19,748 --> 00:46:23,580
maybe doing a new seller on a Lashan property in the pulkidrai, because

756
00:46:23,612 --> 00:46:27,020
we have a seller at Pink Valley and a seller at Tybush.

757
00:46:27,212 --> 00:46:30,900
And. Yeah, so it's not. The chances of a

758
00:46:30,932 --> 00:46:34,676
new brand in the next five years is very little.

759
00:46:34,780 --> 00:46:37,504
But, I mean, there's been some talk on maybe doing

760
00:46:38,844 --> 00:46:42,198
another funky piece of land close to the ocean

761
00:46:42,246 --> 00:46:45,806
and still by and doing something fun there. But,

762
00:46:45,950 --> 00:46:48,982
I mean, for now, we just want to kick start what we have and get

763
00:46:48,998 --> 00:46:52,766
it out there and get it into or force it into the faces

764
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:56,302
of as many people as possible. Including Californians?

765
00:46:56,398 --> 00:46:59,934
Including the Californias. So if you see the brands, buy it,

766
00:46:59,974 --> 00:47:03,646
taste it, enjoy it. Well, I hope the rest of this trip is successful. I

767
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:07,462
hope tonight you guys are doing a barbecue, sort of south african style, I

768
00:47:07,478 --> 00:47:09,154
think, and you're pouring some wines.

769
00:47:11,384 --> 00:47:15,008
It's kind of what needs to happen, I think, without going

770
00:47:15,056 --> 00:47:18,744
deep into that conversation, I think the industry is going back to

771
00:47:18,784 --> 00:47:22,472
those moments where those relationships are built,

772
00:47:22,608 --> 00:47:26,376
where that handshake matters, where that taste together

773
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,248
matters more than the price on the Internet. And we can

774
00:47:30,256 --> 00:47:33,924
only hope that's the case because you never win that battle

775
00:47:34,424 --> 00:47:37,906
and you cannot compete with Kim Kardashian when they're sending

776
00:47:37,930 --> 00:47:41,522
out instagrams every 15 seconds. It's just

777
00:47:41,578 --> 00:47:45,386
impossible. I think that's going to break eventually for the

778
00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:49,194
consumer anyway. And so I think you're doing the right thing. It's hard

779
00:47:49,234 --> 00:47:52,614
work. You show up, shake the hands, tell the story,

780
00:47:53,354 --> 00:47:56,994
and share. And share. It's the interaction. We always say we're more

781
00:47:57,154 --> 00:48:00,866
storytellers than winemakers, because when you're

782
00:48:00,890 --> 00:48:03,794
telling your story to a bunch of different people

783
00:48:03,874 --> 00:48:07,404
constantly, the best way to interact with people is

784
00:48:07,444 --> 00:48:11,108
through in house dinner or braai,

785
00:48:11,236 --> 00:48:14,884
and it's liquid ellipse, my friend. That's the most

786
00:48:14,924 --> 00:48:18,700
important thing. And get the product tasted, and then you move from

787
00:48:18,732 --> 00:48:22,464
there. Well, thank you for sharing the story today. Thank you.

788
00:48:22,764 --> 00:48:26,276
It was very fun. I know you have some jet lag, probably.

789
00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:29,264
Yeah. We've only been in for two days.

790
00:48:30,644 --> 00:48:33,974
First and out. It's good to see you. Thank you very

791
00:48:34,014 --> 00:48:36,314
much. Cheers. Bye, Donkey.

792
00:48:45,214 --> 00:48:48,590
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to

793
00:48:48,622 --> 00:48:51,774
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

794
00:48:51,934 --> 00:48:55,254
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.