Sparkling Wine From South Africa? Yes, Please. Meet Danielle Coetzee.

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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul Cain. We are in studio today about to

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have a conversation with Petri. I'm gonna say it wrong.

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Fentner, finter Fintner.

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Introductions in just a moment. Wine talks, of course, available on I heart radio,

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Pandora, Spotify, wherever you hang out for podcasting. Hey, have a listen

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to an episode that I did, and I brought this up earlier

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on a podcast, and I want you to listen to it because it's about Mae

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Ellien Lanc song. And she owns a winery in South Africa, which we're going to

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talk about today in a winery called Glenelly. But the important

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feature of this young woman at 98 years old is that she was

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alive and watched the Nazis literally shoot up her parents

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Chateau Pichon Longueville. So very interesting conversation.

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And you won't believe how her memory

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is rock solid of what happened, happen in those days as well. There's a

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conversation with my dad, 1972, he started

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this industry, literally started the direct to consumer wine

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industry in America. And I got to sit with him about

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two years ago, and we went through a lot of what happened and how he

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got here and how he came up with the idea of shipping wine to people.

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So have a listen to that, but not while we're here. Here to have a

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conversation with Petri. I'm not going to try it again. And the

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winery is. You nearly got it, huh?

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You nearly got it. I just avoided it.

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Le Chand is one of them, and the other one is Tadesh

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Tybush ta bush. Yes. Why is it. You know, it's interesting

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because the conversation I had one of your comrades was how

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synergistic the american sort of outlook on life

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is with the South African. There seems to be a very high comfort

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level, but I can never pronounce the words. What are the source of the south

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african? So, I mean, we more germanic in terms of our background.

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So that's why, for instance, if we, we understand Dutch

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or German or Flemish, we'd be very similar to

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Afrikaans. So that's why. I mean, Le Chan for us is

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more the french influence, because we french owned as a

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family, a french family that owns the company. But Thai

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Bosch would be very specific to. Not

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necessarily Afrikaans, but more in the, the south african

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way, because Thai Bosch without the. Because basically the end is

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Bosch. And that would be the end of Stellenbosch. And

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then Thai boss, without the ch

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is actually a unique fein Bose shrub that grows

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along the mountain ridges where we have the Thai Bosch property.

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So that's why we sort of wanted to get the sense of place between

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Thai Bosch. So it's in Stellenbosch. And the entire boss is

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Afrikaans for tough bush, because Fein Boss is quite a

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hardy, large thing that grows along the mountain ridges of the

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property. So between the two, Le Chan, which I'm assuming is the

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song chanceu singer

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chanteuse. I think it means the song.

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But it's owned by. The whole entire project is owned by

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a french family. Yes. So it's

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the Uru family and they. So that's why for us, for

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Leshan, we sort of wanted to play a bit on

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France meets South Africa. The label

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is totally wrong trying to figure that out. Yeah,

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well, the label is literally a rooster that's chanting. So le Shan

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means the chanting or the song of the rooster. And because the look

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and feel of it, it looks more earthy and farm like. And I mean, we

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south african farmers with french investors. So for

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us, I mean, obviously, if you can get investment in euros in South

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Africa, it's an easier ride to get the whole thing kick

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started. So the French. I mean, the french influence came from. They have a

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property in Provence where they do Rousseaille, obviously,

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as the art of. Or Provence is the art of Rousseau

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production. And they do a white and a red. And then they also have a

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property in San Ser, where they do 100% Sauvignon blanc.

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Wow. They also own a property in Sicily where they have

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a joint venture with the Planeta family. I'm pretty sure you've heard

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of Planeta, of course. What a diversity. Yeah. And then three

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properties in South Africa or in Stellenbosch. So the one property

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that we're not speaking about today is Pink Valley. It's

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100% resilient. I mean, the influence from that came from the proven sole

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property, that town. So for them, the whole wine thing

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is quite new. The first property was bought in 20.

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1718 or 17 in France,

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18 in South Africa. The first property. And then

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the sicilian property came. Blast. So, so this is

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like really recent stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's like

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the owners, they actually come from a more banking background.

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Oh, like the rust shields, sort of. And

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also have a renewable energy company. So

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definitely some old money mixed with new. And then

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they wanted to invest in

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wine farms. So now they own, what's it,

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3236 wine farms across

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France, Italy and South Africa. You think that

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the attraction to South Africa, besides the exchange rate

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of the rond, it's called the rand. Right? The rand, yeah. And the

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euro was the reason because there's this love affair with the

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terroir. They definitely enjoy the terroir, but

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they wanted to expand to the southern hemisphere. But you can imagine if they expanded

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to Australia or to Chile

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or Argentina. I mean, the time difference is massive. So for them to

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manage a winery, which is on the opposite side of the world, a complete different

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time zone, is not the option. And if you look at

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the south african run and the quality that you can get in

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South Africa for the price, I think that's the most glaring

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thing about the south african industry. And for them, they

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were that previous, or they were they connected

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with a guy, Bertrand, which was Skulk, who's our

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CEO. The two of them worked together for Rupert and Rothschild,

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and he was sort of the link between them

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investing in South Africa, and then they needed a jockey, and the jockey was skulk,

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and then the first properties was purchased. So the

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south african industry is. I mean, it's amazing for many different. There's a lot of

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French. I mean, I talked about May Allian Lang Song, who

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at 70, decided she was going to start a new winery

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in that glinelli. Is there a lot of French, not

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only owners, but influence? Yes,

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definitely. But I mean, for us, as soon as we could hit

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the international travels again, I mean, a lot of south

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african winemakers went to France, for instance, to gain some

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experience, because France is seen as sort of the heart of

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winemaking, or that's for us in terms of

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style. It's very similar towards our style. So it's more

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elegant, clean, fresh, fruit forward wines. And that's what we try to

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produce in South Africa, too. But we also have big groups, like at viny, which

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is also french owned, and they busy buying up a lot of

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properties in South Africa and then combining it as one

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big. But there's a lot of foreign investment.

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I mean, even Americans investing in big properties,

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Germans, French. So the south african market,

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obviously, you want the south african families

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to maintain or to own the properties for as long as possible. But

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I mean, obviously times are changing. And it's nice because the

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investment from abroad means that we have the opportunity

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to plant more clean, virus free

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vineyards. So with a virus free vine, you can deliver

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a better crop and produce a better wine. It's kind of interesting

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that South Africa's like that. Obviously,

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in California, you can buy. There are a lot of french owners, particularly in

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Oregon, there's a lot of french Burgundy makers, but try and do that in Burgundy,

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man, you cannot pierce that bale. It's very hard, and I

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find that fascinating, that in South Africa you can.

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So is there a difference stylistically between the two brands that you're talking

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about here, that the. Is the French Lachon, is it

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bordelaise style? Is it. What are you trying to do? Are you trying to create

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a stylistic differentiation between the two? Yes.

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So basically, our whole idea was. And that's

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why we split into three different brands, instead of doing a

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bunch of different labels under the same brand. Is

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the. The Lachan is two wines. So it's a Shenan blanc,

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which is. I mean, Shenan is very typical for South Africa.

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We have a lot of Chenin blanc planted. Yeah. And the reason for that is

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mainly because of brandy production. So Chenin is the most

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planted white grape variety, but most of it goes to distilling

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and brandy. So in South Africa, I mean, we. Drink in South Africa as well.

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South Africa, we like. Our drink of choice would be a

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brandy and coke. We call it sweet lips. I have never had

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a. Well, you should definitely have a brandy and coke.

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The Armagnac cognac thing, or is it just a whole different thing? Necessarily, it's

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different. Obviously, the entry level brandies would be just enjoy

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brandies. But if you go for ten year, twelve year, 15 year, I mean,

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it's more than capable to stand up against the proper cognac.

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So it's good quality brandy at the end of the day. But the nice

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thing about it is the schneblanc that we're doing is old vineyard. So because

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of the fact that it was used for brandy back in the day, there's a

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lot of old vineyard Shenin blanc, which is amazing. And when we purchased the

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property, we inherited the old block that we're producing, the Shenin.

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But the biggest distinction would be between the thai bush

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crescendo and the Le Shan.

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So the whole idea is Leshan is on one side of one

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ward in Stalinbosch, the pul quadrai. Thibausch is in another

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ward in Stalinbarsch called the Halderberg. So it's two

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completely different terroirs, two completely different styles.

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Le Shan is sort of. It's a mix between

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the new world and the old world, because it's old

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world in style, but it's new world in terms of the variety

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that we use, because it's a merlot, carbonyl franc, Cabernet

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Sauvignon, Shiraz and Sangiovese. Wow.

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You're really. You're about to say, you know, Bordeaux blend, and all of a sudden,

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you went off track. It's always like Syrah. It's a

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Bordeaux blend, Sangiovese. Together, we add the

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shiraz and the Sangiovese on the property, and there's a lot of

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Bordeaux production in South Africa at a very competitive

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price. So for us, I mean, it's not just another label based on a

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bottle. It's a new property, it's a new brand. So for us

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to be distinctively different, we had to do something distinctively

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different. And I always say the shiraz and the sanguvisi is the.

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It's the salt and pepper towards the final blend. And it's not like we stood

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there with lab coats and sang a gates. 2% of this or

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8%. That's a good vision. Yeah. We basically

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stood in front of the tank and we said, okay, well, this sort of tastes

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similar towards the thai bush, which it shouldn't. Let's do

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something different. And we had the shiraz and we had the sangiovese. We took it

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in, we wanted to play around with it, and it was more, take a glass.

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There's a bit of sangiovese. Put the border on top, swirl. It, freshens

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up the wine. Perfect. This is an enjoyable wine that you want to

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consume and drink lots of. It's good work if you can get it. Play around

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with letting things. I mean, how did that happen for you? What.

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What got you into doing this? Into wine making? Yeah.

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By the way, listeners, we didn't introduce him as the winemaker for the. Yeah,

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so, yeah, I'm the winemaker of the two brands. Yeah, yeah.

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So I always knew that I was never gonna, like,

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obviously, from sitting down and working constantly in front of a computer. Wouldn't

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have worked for me. I mean, my parents always told me in Afrikaans,

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I have Mira in my hat, which means I have ants in my bum.

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So I'm a very energetic boy, and I love

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farm life for what it is, because it's. I mean, you're working outside and you're

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working with a plant, which is amazing. And I actually played a game

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on Facebook called Farm Bill. And when you get to a certain

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level, you can plant a certain crop. And then I got to a certain

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level where the only way I could plant vineyards to produce grapes

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of, and it made my property look the prettiest. I just kept

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on planting vines and sort of getting the whole idea. And then

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we moved. Moved to Stellenbosch for high school. And then you're in

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the vineyards. I mean, you're constantly working around it because the vineyards are

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planted all around the town. And then it just triggered more

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keenness to actually find out what's the

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deeper vision around wine making. Then I studied at

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Stellenbosch University and then I started working immediately after

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my studies. Have you seen the movie Gran Turismo? I've seen

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it on Netflix at the moment, but I haven't watched it yet. I mean, it's

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a guy who played video games and he ends up being a race car driver.

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Yeah. And it's a true story. I saw that there's a guy playing Facebook, you

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know, planting vineyards, and it's. A true story now. No, I'm

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like, Thai was Lashon in Pink Valley.

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Is that a career? Now,

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your comrades were talking about how the industry in South Africa is

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relatively new, which, you know, we had this. You said old world. New World is

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the interesting dichotomy there because it's old world has been

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around for a long time, but it's new world because much like the armenian

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wine market, there's new technologies and it's becoming of age.

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So what do you call it? But

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is that a popular career to look into in South

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Africa for a young man, a young woman? You see,

230
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I think if you just do it because you want to, it's not

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necessarily the most popular in terms of to go out and

232
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study, to answer the question firstly, but because

233
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there's a lot of different agricultural sort of degrees

234
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that you can go and study or paths that you can go into. I mean,

235
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:17,222
you can do horticulture, viticulture, you can do winemaking, you

236
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can do a bit of everything. So it's not as popular. But I mean, we

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still about 30 to 50 people per year

238
00:14:24,766 --> 00:14:28,406
per class, which is quite a lot. If you think about the amount of

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wineries. It's not like there's thousands of wineries in South

240
00:14:32,206 --> 00:14:35,320
Africa. I mean, we only about 150 in

241
00:14:35,392 --> 00:14:38,768
Stellenbosch. I mean, 50 people per year.

242
00:14:38,936 --> 00:14:42,656
So obviously jobs aren't as plentiful as it

243
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,216
should be because, I mean, there's one winemaker and maybe an

244
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assistant, depending on the size. But

245
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yet again, I mean, if you sort of slot in at the right spot,

246
00:14:53,848 --> 00:14:57,656
then it's a very enjoyable business. And you always tend to think that it's

247
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,008
the. You over romanticize the fact that it's winemaking

248
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and you're constantly in the sale and you're in the vineyards. But

249
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I mean, it's. We always say it's not bad, we don't. It's easy to produce

250
00:15:08,804 --> 00:15:12,596
a wine. It's difficult to farm. It's not difficult to farm it, but you

251
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manage here in your art. It's easy to produce it, but it's difficult to

252
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sell it. And I mean myself as a winemaker, we also

253
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be the best tools to utilize for selling because you can

254
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tell the story, you understand the different vintages, you understand what you're

255
00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:31,428
speaking about, and you can present the wine in a proper manner.

256
00:15:31,476 --> 00:15:35,210
So that's why we go out and sell a lot. So

257
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for me, you do a bit of everything. I mean, you're marketing the wine, you're

258
00:15:37,898 --> 00:15:41,514
selling the wine, you producing the wine, you're farming the grapes, you're planting

259
00:15:41,594 --> 00:15:45,354
everything yourself. So it's nice to be able to tick off all of the boxes

260
00:15:45,394 --> 00:15:48,574
and not just focus on being a cellar at

261
00:15:48,994 --> 00:15:52,594
the seller constantly. Obviously, harvest time, you need to be there every

262
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single day. But that's why after harvest, we can come and do this

263
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and chat some ball. It's an irony of the

264
00:16:00,250 --> 00:16:04,056
industry. I mean, everybody has to deal with it, right? You're here in

265
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,776
America with your bag full of wines to talk

266
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,560
to people and to basically hand sell them the idea of

267
00:16:11,592 --> 00:16:15,240
south african wines, not that popular here. I

268
00:16:15,272 --> 00:16:18,976
sat in that room that you came from every Tuesday for

269
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,232
35 years, tasted wine. I can tell you, I can bring it up on the

270
00:16:22,248 --> 00:16:26,040
computer. How many I tasted from South Africa. Not a lot. It's

271
00:16:26,072 --> 00:16:29,328
even much, much less than I actually put into the club at the time.

272
00:16:29,496 --> 00:16:33,284
But have a great affinity for them and enjoy them when I,

273
00:16:33,324 --> 00:16:36,492
when I see them. But I don't see them on the list very often. And

274
00:16:36,508 --> 00:16:39,660
that, that comes back to your point. This is that

275
00:16:39,692 --> 00:16:43,516
parts. Yes, it's not easy to make wine, but once you've planted

276
00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:47,156
the grapes and you pick them and harvest them, there's not a lot of pressure

277
00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:50,908
except not to screw it up. Yeah, but now you have all this inventory in

278
00:16:50,916 --> 00:16:54,252
the warehouse that you've bottled. You need to sell. That's the. And you got to

279
00:16:54,268 --> 00:16:58,052
pay for the next harvest. Exactly. So. So in your group, how

280
00:16:58,068 --> 00:17:01,676
many do you have? You have yourself. So it's in the

281
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:04,884
seller. It would be myself, but I mean, it's myself and then

282
00:17:05,044 --> 00:17:08,436
skulk. He would obviously assist me. So it's

283
00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:12,012
basically who does the marketing? Well, we have a

284
00:17:12,108 --> 00:17:15,772
specific guy for sales. We have distributors

285
00:17:15,868 --> 00:17:19,420
in and around Cape Town, Joburg, Durban. And then we have

286
00:17:19,452 --> 00:17:23,276
reps in each bot. So basically you would go out

287
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,756
with the reps and you would go and sell the one. What we like to

288
00:17:26,780 --> 00:17:30,516
do most, and we can do it in Cape Town and Joburg because it's

289
00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:34,108
accessible for us. But we really do a lot of cult

290
00:17:34,156 --> 00:17:37,868
calling where you basically walk up with a bag

291
00:17:37,916 --> 00:17:41,676
and you say, okay, today I'm tackling this road. And you have

292
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,356
your four bottles of wine, which is the three brands, and you just

293
00:17:45,380 --> 00:17:49,028
knock on every single restaurant's door. And if they don't want to

294
00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:52,876
taste, then at least we just want to show them the labels so that

295
00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:56,516
they can see it. So it's a lot of storytelling and grafting

296
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:59,968
because, I mean, you need to tell the story. And there's many, many,

297
00:18:00,016 --> 00:18:03,824
many brands. So you sort of need to be different to get

298
00:18:03,864 --> 00:18:07,136
people's attention. And being a new brand is tough because it's a

299
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,560
constant hand sell. And, I mean, that's why in America, for instance, we have our

300
00:18:10,592 --> 00:18:14,288
importers, and they specifically focus on south

301
00:18:14,336 --> 00:18:17,920
african wine. So they would go out and present and chat to people and get

302
00:18:17,952 --> 00:18:21,632
the wine in at certain spots. So in each country,

303
00:18:21,688 --> 00:18:25,440
you have an importer that focuses on south african

304
00:18:25,472 --> 00:18:28,952
wine. And, I mean, they would come around and taste. And the nice thing about

305
00:18:28,968 --> 00:18:32,324
our industry is everyone wants to help each other out. So

306
00:18:32,664 --> 00:18:36,384
we've had it many times where even rights that you also

307
00:18:36,424 --> 00:18:40,032
had, where some of their reps would be in town and they would phone us

308
00:18:40,048 --> 00:18:43,264
and tell us, listen, okay, well, we have a rep here that you're obviously not

309
00:18:43,304 --> 00:18:47,120
exporting here yet. Maybe pop, we're going to send him over

310
00:18:47,152 --> 00:18:50,956
for tasting, see if you can get the listing and get it to another

311
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,740
piece of the country. So that's a great, you know, I've been

312
00:18:54,772 --> 00:18:58,452
helping there, trying to help. Well, I should back even that. I haven't done

313
00:18:58,468 --> 00:19:02,260
anything, actually, until now with the armenian industry, the armenian

314
00:19:02,292 --> 00:19:05,984
wine industry, because I'm armenian. But, you know, they don't have that

315
00:19:06,644 --> 00:19:10,132
camaraderie to support each other. You know, there's different vendors

316
00:19:10,188 --> 00:19:13,604
association in California. You know, Walla Walla, Washington has this

317
00:19:13,644 --> 00:19:17,372
amazing group of guys that's a commission owned by the cut

318
00:19:17,428 --> 00:19:21,140
by the government, and they raise taxes just to promote

319
00:19:21,212 --> 00:19:24,836
Walla Walla wines throughout the country. And here you guys have it

320
00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:28,316
sounds like to me, your headwinds in a smaller

321
00:19:28,420 --> 00:19:31,916
scale to the american wine market. Obviously, there's only

322
00:19:31,940 --> 00:19:35,676
150 wineries, et cetera is the same. You have to

323
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:39,484
take that bag and take those wines, walk into a restaurant tour,

324
00:19:39,524 --> 00:19:42,820
he's probably, or she's probably a paying the rear end and they don't have time

325
00:19:42,852 --> 00:19:46,418
for you and, you know, come back tomorrow or come back the next day or

326
00:19:46,466 --> 00:19:50,082
I already got enough wines or whatever. All the excuses. There's always

327
00:19:50,178 --> 00:19:53,970
all the objections. Always. Yeah. I mean, we always say sometimes

328
00:19:54,002 --> 00:19:57,602
you walk in and you walk out feeling like a king. Yeah.

329
00:19:57,658 --> 00:20:01,418
But there's also many times where you walk out like a scared dog

330
00:20:01,466 --> 00:20:05,098
with your tail between your legs. But, you

331
00:20:05,106 --> 00:20:08,866
know, that's a very interesting point. You're a winemaker. You know, let's just. Let's

332
00:20:08,890 --> 00:20:12,364
just sort of pigeonhole the idea that you're a farmer and

333
00:20:13,104 --> 00:20:16,272
you're into biology and chemistry and all the things that go along with having to

334
00:20:16,288 --> 00:20:19,684
make wine. And then there's a sales mentality, which is where I.

335
00:20:20,024 --> 00:20:23,496
I could never be a winemaker. I don't have the patience, but I'm out there.

336
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,248
I love to hear somebody tell me, no, that's, like, my favorite thing.

337
00:20:27,416 --> 00:20:30,880
Because that means that's time to start working. Exactly. You know, because if he said

338
00:20:30,912 --> 00:20:34,704
yes. All the time, excited to get them to actually bless that.

339
00:20:34,744 --> 00:20:38,112
Yeah, I win. I get to win. So that's the two different

340
00:20:38,168 --> 00:20:41,700
animals. It's hard to cross both paths. It is.

341
00:20:41,892 --> 00:20:45,500
But, I mean, we always say, and that's our quote, myself

342
00:20:45,572 --> 00:20:49,028
and Neil, as he's our sales. He works in sales for us,

343
00:20:49,196 --> 00:20:52,972
and we always say, listen, persistence beats resistance. That's

344
00:20:52,988 --> 00:20:56,620
true. Oh, I like that. So there's even. I mean, there's many restaurants.

345
00:20:56,692 --> 00:21:00,388
There's many restaurants where we would literally, like. They said

346
00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:04,164
no the first time, and we would go back every single

347
00:21:04,244 --> 00:21:07,676
week once. And the one guy literally said, he's like, listen, you guys are

348
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:11,476
so persistent. Please just come in and show me your bloody wine

349
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:15,316
so I can just get you off of our tail. And then

350
00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:19,132
we actually got the listing because, I mean, we went constantly and we asked for

351
00:21:19,148 --> 00:21:22,972
him every single time that we were in Cape Town, and it took a few

352
00:21:23,028 --> 00:21:26,500
weeks, but then we got the listing finally. So you proved

353
00:21:26,532 --> 00:21:30,212
that. Well, president Coolidge,

354
00:21:30,268 --> 00:21:33,944
persistence is omnipotent in America is on everything.

355
00:21:34,584 --> 00:21:38,392
Are there a lot of american wines on the wine list in Cape Town, in

356
00:21:38,408 --> 00:21:41,444
Stellenbosch, Joburg? Not a lot,

357
00:21:41,824 --> 00:21:45,296
really. American wines. We don't see a lot

358
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,640
australian wines. We don't see a lot french wines. We see a lot of

359
00:21:48,712 --> 00:21:52,264
spanish, italian, more the european

360
00:21:52,304 --> 00:21:55,704
wines. But definitely, if you go to wine

361
00:21:55,744 --> 00:21:59,518
shops, you'll definitely see american wines at

362
00:21:59,656 --> 00:22:03,162
the proper wine shops and the high eye in

363
00:22:03,298 --> 00:22:06,654
wine restaurants. So

364
00:22:07,674 --> 00:22:11,214
if you said that the graph of the industry

365
00:22:11,834 --> 00:22:15,578
in South Africa was at some point in its

366
00:22:15,626 --> 00:22:19,218
infancy, and it's childlike adolescence, whatever it is,

367
00:22:19,346 --> 00:22:23,122
it's not well, along compared to the rest. But there's so many movements

368
00:22:23,178 --> 00:22:26,154
throughout the country, throughout the world, that are

369
00:22:26,894 --> 00:22:30,550
not only biodynamic, organic, sustainability, all those things.

370
00:22:30,702 --> 00:22:34,494
There's packaging movements which drive me nuts. There's

371
00:22:34,534 --> 00:22:38,246
no alcohol movements. Where does South Africa land? In a

372
00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:41,894
sort of. I'm not going to call it wokeness of wine

373
00:22:41,934 --> 00:22:45,454
because that's not the right word in these contemporary

374
00:22:45,534 --> 00:22:49,334
trends. Which in my opinion are just blips

375
00:22:49,414 --> 00:22:53,206
on the radar of the 6000 year career or 12,000 year career

376
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:57,038
of wine. Where's South Africa with some of these sort of contemporary

377
00:22:57,086 --> 00:23:00,670
things? Yeah, so it's actually a good question.

378
00:23:00,742 --> 00:23:04,414
Because I mean, there's always a movement, then it's a natural

379
00:23:04,454 --> 00:23:07,942
wine, then it's organic, then it's biodynamic. And I

380
00:23:07,958 --> 00:23:11,782
mean, we farm, for instance, we farm 100% organic. All

381
00:23:11,798 --> 00:23:15,382
of our wines produce our wine 100% organic. But

382
00:23:15,438 --> 00:23:19,030
I think where we standing at the moment in terms of our market is

383
00:23:19,062 --> 00:23:22,838
because it was very known for bulk export

384
00:23:22,926 --> 00:23:26,702
back in the day. So it sort of got labeled as bulk wine at

385
00:23:26,718 --> 00:23:30,190
a cheap price. Where now the movement is shifting more to

386
00:23:30,222 --> 00:23:33,342
produce quality, but quality for

387
00:23:33,478 --> 00:23:37,174
price. So that's why South Africa at the moment is by far

388
00:23:37,214 --> 00:23:40,870
one of the sexiest or sexier wine countries

389
00:23:40,942 --> 00:23:44,534
in the world. Because the wines that are coming out of it is an

390
00:23:44,574 --> 00:23:48,152
excellent value for money. And that's we. I

391
00:23:48,168 --> 00:23:51,416
mean, obviously you get the people that want the organic or the

392
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,136
biodynamic, but I mean, we always say, listen, we can't be everything to anyone

393
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,072
or to everyone. This is our story, this is our product and this is what

394
00:23:59,088 --> 00:24:02,656
we're sticking with. So the movement is shifting just to

395
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,416
get the bulk. Well, obviously bulk will always say

396
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,928
a big market, but to shift to bottled wine that's better priced

397
00:24:10,056 --> 00:24:13,792
at better quality. I think that's an important. There's a couple things you said that

398
00:24:13,808 --> 00:24:16,504
really important. I don't remember

399
00:24:18,364 --> 00:24:22,116
having the opinion that South Africa

400
00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:25,860
was a bulk market. And that doesn't mean it wasn't. I'm just saying the

401
00:24:25,892 --> 00:24:29,544
perception here. Starting in 1988,

402
00:24:29,884 --> 00:24:33,304
I've never had that feeling. Provence sometimes

403
00:24:34,884 --> 00:24:38,556
Lodi in California had that feeling. Puglia in Italy had

404
00:24:38,580 --> 00:24:42,022
that sort of moniker, but I never sensed that.

405
00:24:42,148 --> 00:24:45,922
But what's interesting is all the regions I just mentioned have grown out

406
00:24:45,938 --> 00:24:49,514
of that. Puglia now is making amazing near

407
00:24:49,554 --> 00:24:53,266
D'Avala and Aglianico. And then you've got

408
00:24:53,290 --> 00:24:56,882
Lodi, which was famous for

409
00:24:57,018 --> 00:25:00,754
a credence Clearwater song and now is very popular

410
00:25:00,794 --> 00:25:04,482
and has very old vines to work with the Provence is the same. I mean,

411
00:25:04,498 --> 00:25:08,282
they're making everything in Provence now. I mean, that's just rose. It's all kinds of

412
00:25:08,298 --> 00:25:12,080
stuff. If the south african

413
00:25:12,112 --> 00:25:15,400
industry is trying to climb out of that, they certainly have a really good shot

414
00:25:15,432 --> 00:25:18,856
at doing that. I never sensed that from

415
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,648
vendors again. We didn't see a ton. Yeah. And the thing

416
00:25:22,696 --> 00:25:25,804
too is a lot of the big

417
00:25:26,224 --> 00:25:29,672
cooperative sellers aren't cooperative

418
00:25:29,728 --> 00:25:33,488
sellers anymore. They basically fell down. So back in the day, it was

419
00:25:33,496 --> 00:25:36,860
just a bunch of co ops producing the biggest bulk of

420
00:25:36,892 --> 00:25:40,596
thal industry. And you had Gauvio Fuer, which was sort of the

421
00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:44,396
monopoly, the style, and those were the biggest buyers of the

422
00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:47,932
bulk. They sort of just added up and sold it as cheap wine.

423
00:25:48,068 --> 00:25:51,436
Where now all of the farms that were farmed or delivered or

424
00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:55,236
that delivered wine for the cooperatives, I mean,

425
00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:58,956
it's good site. So it's being bought up by

426
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:02,988
potential winemakers for smaller brands that are

427
00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:06,956
replanting, investing some money in proper quality grapes. And what you're

428
00:26:06,980 --> 00:26:10,356
seeing now is more movement towards quality

429
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,068
and hectares being planted, which is fantastic, but virus

430
00:26:14,116 --> 00:26:17,220
free. Yeah, that's huge, too. No phylloxera.

431
00:26:17,292 --> 00:26:21,024
Yeah. So here's what happened here

432
00:26:22,524 --> 00:26:25,580
and worldwide, but I'm wondering if there's an

433
00:26:25,612 --> 00:26:29,240
influence and negative influence as it was in

434
00:26:29,272 --> 00:26:33,112
America, and that is 50 cent a liter

435
00:26:33,288 --> 00:26:37,056
wines coming out of the centership. Spain, whites and reds,

436
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,364
you know, just horrible stuff. But,

437
00:26:41,144 --> 00:26:44,256
you know, and they bring it in those 20,000 liter

438
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,864
tetra things, and they bottle it here,

439
00:26:48,024 --> 00:26:51,744
they make it under, who knows? Maybe it's a hundred different labels.

440
00:26:51,784 --> 00:26:54,976
They bottle the same, you know, Valencia White.

441
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,448
Right. They spend money on packaging,

442
00:26:58,616 --> 00:27:02,136
they send it out to all the online wine clubs and all the

443
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560
organizations, and it's terrible. And a consumer goes

444
00:27:05,592 --> 00:27:09,216
online, I'm going to join this club, it's interesting. And then they get this wine,

445
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,016
they go, this isn't very good. It's dollar 15. I'm not going to buy

446
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,640
from now on. I'm not going to trust anybody online and I'm going to go

447
00:27:16,672 --> 00:27:19,784
back to it. So have you ever, have you seen anything like that in South

448
00:27:19,824 --> 00:27:22,784
Africa where there's just branded crap?

449
00:27:23,244 --> 00:27:27,084
Yeah. Yes. I mean, obviously you see branded crap,

450
00:27:27,164 --> 00:27:30,612
but I mean branded crap.

451
00:27:30,788 --> 00:27:34,524
The nice thing, I mean, for us, the. The cheaper labels in South Africa,

452
00:27:34,604 --> 00:27:37,964
there's obviously very, very entry level, which is

453
00:27:38,004 --> 00:27:41,564
undrinkable. Sorry, I'm saying undrinkable, not

454
00:27:41,604 --> 00:27:45,184
as enjoyable. But if you go to South Africa,

455
00:27:45,884 --> 00:27:48,454
you can buy excellent quality

456
00:27:49,394 --> 00:27:53,226
Chenin Blanc, Sauvignon blanc. Red blends

457
00:27:53,370 --> 00:27:56,850
for anything between 60 and 80 rand. And, I mean, that's

458
00:27:56,882 --> 00:28:00,730
anything split between three to $5, really, a

459
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:04,586
bottle, and it's more than drinkable. Wow. So that's the nice thing.

460
00:28:04,610 --> 00:28:07,250
I mean, for us. I always say, if I want to go out and drink,

461
00:28:07,362 --> 00:28:10,666
even though I'm a winemaker, I'm not a fussy wine drinker. If you can give

462
00:28:10,690 --> 00:28:14,450
me a cheap, fresh, and fruity chenin blanche, 70 rand

463
00:28:14,482 --> 00:28:18,306
a bottle, I'll finish the whole bottle. Yeah. Sit next

464
00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:21,894
to the pool, next to the ocean, and drink some wine and have some.

465
00:28:22,674 --> 00:28:26,434
Because almost invariably, if

466
00:28:26,474 --> 00:28:29,794
at $5 here, six, you know, maybe six is the

467
00:28:29,834 --> 00:28:33,522
threshold, it's gonna be sugared up junk.

468
00:28:33,658 --> 00:28:36,826
I mean, I don't think on a regular basis they can produce anything other than

469
00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:40,466
that. Yeah, that's. But that's the nice thing about South Africa, is

470
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:44,450
for that price, you're already going into the 100 rand tier. Wow.

471
00:28:44,522 --> 00:28:48,234
And for 100 rand a bottle, you're going to start drinking

472
00:28:48,314 --> 00:28:51,986
excellent quality wine for the price. For 150

473
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:54,734
rand a bottle, that's sort of the

474
00:28:55,314 --> 00:28:59,154
striking range. That's where you want to be. Because any 150 rand

475
00:28:59,194 --> 00:29:02,954
bottle you'll buy will most probably be good quality. And

476
00:29:03,034 --> 00:29:06,884
then as soon as you start going up, I mean, obviously, there's many

477
00:29:06,924 --> 00:29:10,412
different price categories stretching all the way to 3000 rand a

478
00:29:10,428 --> 00:29:14,060
bottle, which would be the most expensive? I mean, that would be about

479
00:29:14,132 --> 00:29:17,820
$300. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

480
00:29:17,892 --> 00:29:21,664
No, that's $1,500. Sorry, that's. And that's. That's expensive.

481
00:29:23,044 --> 00:29:26,684
$150. So my math's right.

482
00:29:26,804 --> 00:29:29,460
If you can get the public

483
00:29:29,652 --> 00:29:33,168
enjoying. When you say quality, I'm

484
00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:36,964
expecting you to say, or mean, properly made,

485
00:29:37,304 --> 00:29:40,864
honest expression. We're not putting

486
00:29:40,904 --> 00:29:44,272
flavoring agents or defoaming agents, or all the different things you can put in a

487
00:29:44,288 --> 00:29:47,992
wine to. To pump up the acid or pump up the sugar. I just got

488
00:29:48,008 --> 00:29:51,616
a nice representation. Yeah. Is that what you're talking

489
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,440
about? Definite. Well, for sure. It's not juiced up

490
00:29:55,472 --> 00:29:58,632
with sugars or any additives. It's just

491
00:29:58,768 --> 00:30:02,490
fresh, fruity, bone dry wines, which is

492
00:30:02,522 --> 00:30:06,362
amazing. And the nice thing about that price bracket is the wines are such a

493
00:30:06,378 --> 00:30:10,034
good example of the specific variety. So

494
00:30:10,154 --> 00:30:13,754
it's always nice to taste the 60 rand

495
00:30:13,794 --> 00:30:17,530
bottles and to compare to something that's 150 rand. And I always

496
00:30:17,562 --> 00:30:20,618
say that's where the crux comes in, because, I mean, you need to be able,

497
00:30:20,666 --> 00:30:23,922
if you can pick up the difference. Many people always ask me, how can I

498
00:30:23,938 --> 00:30:27,688
become better at tasting wine? And I tell them, buy a 60 rand bottle compared

499
00:30:27,736 --> 00:30:31,272
to 150 rand bottle, and then sort of get to the point where you can

500
00:30:31,288 --> 00:30:35,128
say, okay, this is what quality should taste like and this is what it shouldn't.

501
00:30:35,296 --> 00:30:39,048
But for us, that lower price bracket is a. It's obviously a

502
00:30:39,056 --> 00:30:42,704
very competitive market at the price, but the quality for that price

503
00:30:42,784 --> 00:30:46,624
is incredible. It's not like to come to just come

504
00:30:46,664 --> 00:30:50,464
just to experience that, because we don't get to do that here. Exactly. Well,

505
00:30:50,584 --> 00:30:54,080
you have to come and visit us in South Africa. Well, no, I had plans

506
00:30:54,112 --> 00:30:57,706
after I had my conversation with May Elian and I like

507
00:30:57,810 --> 00:31:01,522
it too hard this quarter. We're coming to Europe.

508
00:31:01,618 --> 00:31:04,946
Actually, I was telling one of your friends that we're going to be in

509
00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:08,722
Paris in June, early June, and I thought, maybe I'll just

510
00:31:08,778 --> 00:31:12,290
book a flight to Stellenbosch, not tell my

511
00:31:12,322 --> 00:31:16,146
wife. She thinks we're coming home. And then

512
00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:19,974
from there, you go in a small little wine tour in South Africa.

513
00:31:20,614 --> 00:31:22,394
Divorced by the time I got done with that.

514
00:31:24,294 --> 00:31:27,834
But that was an interesting comment you just said, which is

515
00:31:28,414 --> 00:31:31,854
people ask. This is a very important thing about our industry

516
00:31:31,934 --> 00:31:35,678
now, particularly in sort of the way

517
00:31:35,726 --> 00:31:39,318
social networking is working and the way some of the current

518
00:31:39,406 --> 00:31:43,246
pundits, and I'm going to point to millennials as well, in this part

519
00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:46,154
of thing, there's wine.

520
00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:50,394
The aristocracy of wine. The old school snobbery of

521
00:31:50,434 --> 00:31:54,170
wine is being combated against, which is fine. I have no problem with that.

522
00:31:54,202 --> 00:31:57,894
I get it. I don't know how you do that. So if somebody says,

523
00:31:58,674 --> 00:32:02,354
how do I get better at tasting wine? That's a true

524
00:32:02,394 --> 00:32:05,738
interest in trying to understand what wine is, because once you ask that

525
00:32:05,786 --> 00:32:08,934
question, you're going to start sort of

526
00:32:09,794 --> 00:32:13,552
experiencing your palate and testing your palate on what you taste.

527
00:32:13,738 --> 00:32:17,532
And guess what? You've just fallen into the

528
00:32:17,548 --> 00:32:21,316
aristocracy of wine. I don't know how you separate them. Yeah. And

529
00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:24,876
as soon as you're there, I mean, people get. As soon as they start tasting

530
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:28,676
and as soon as they become better at their craft. I mean, a palate is

531
00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:32,304
definitely something that you can work on. When we studied at university,

532
00:32:32,644 --> 00:32:36,180
I mean, I was still. I was drinking box wine. Sweet

533
00:32:36,212 --> 00:32:39,580
Rizai. Because you're a student and you fill it up with ice and it's swimming

534
00:32:39,612 --> 00:32:43,338
pool wine. Off you go, one litre. Thanks for coming. But, I

535
00:32:43,346 --> 00:32:47,154
mean, now I produce a high end, ultra premium rousseau.

536
00:32:47,194 --> 00:32:50,698
So the best is just to get out there, taste it.

537
00:32:50,826 --> 00:32:54,666
If you walk past the fruit basket, pick it up and smell it, because

538
00:32:54,850 --> 00:32:58,362
all the different scents and tastes that you want to start

539
00:32:58,418 --> 00:33:02,266
figuring out at the end. And I mean, anyone

540
00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:05,786
can start, can start tasting wine. And the nice thing about wine

541
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:09,298
is it's. It's always something that you can speak about

542
00:33:09,426 --> 00:33:13,122
with. You can speak online with anyone. So it's always a

543
00:33:13,138 --> 00:33:16,906
nice point of entry in a conversation, especially in

544
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:20,334
terms of business or your next girlfriend's father.

545
00:33:20,674 --> 00:33:24,474
Yeah. You can always speak about why everyone

546
00:33:24,554 --> 00:33:27,814
loves it. You just turn a thought, which is interesting. Why

547
00:33:29,634 --> 00:33:33,294
is it that, in fact, somebody sent me a picture. They were in,

548
00:33:34,054 --> 00:33:37,750
they were in Singapore and they had dinner with Rudy, the guy

549
00:33:37,782 --> 00:33:41,622
that got busted for faking all the wine. And he

550
00:33:41,638 --> 00:33:45,334
apparently has an incredible palate. They had

551
00:33:45,374 --> 00:33:49,142
five blind Bordeaux. They gave him the list of what five they

552
00:33:49,158 --> 00:33:52,574
were and what vintages they were, and he nailed every one of them. That's very

553
00:33:52,614 --> 00:33:56,062
hard to do, even for somebody who's tasted lots of wine. But the point I'm

554
00:33:56,078 --> 00:33:59,502
making is the guy was there in Singapore to raise money for a project here

555
00:33:59,518 --> 00:34:02,754
in Los Angeles. Big, big money apartment building.

556
00:34:03,734 --> 00:34:07,486
And the lineup of the wines they tasted that night

557
00:34:07,550 --> 00:34:11,030
was like DRc Lafitte, you know, all

558
00:34:11,062 --> 00:34:14,554
the greatest stuff. And I thought, based on what you just said,

559
00:34:14,854 --> 00:34:18,438
why is that? Why is that level of

560
00:34:18,486 --> 00:34:21,990
quality or level of perceived aristocracy or

561
00:34:22,022 --> 00:34:25,766
value so important to a business dinner or a

562
00:34:25,790 --> 00:34:28,941
wedding or a celebration? Maybe it's even the premium

563
00:34:28,997 --> 00:34:32,765
champagne. But you don't do that. You don't celebrate that way with

564
00:34:32,789 --> 00:34:36,565
other beverages. And that's an interesting thought. Yeah, that's. Yeah, let's

565
00:34:36,589 --> 00:34:40,193
find that, you know, how do you do that? I mean, it's not like you,

566
00:34:40,813 --> 00:34:44,189
I wouldn't necessarily buy myself a bottle of proper

567
00:34:44,261 --> 00:34:47,821
whiskey if for celebration. I would rather

568
00:34:47,997 --> 00:34:51,633
open up a few nice bottles of wine, enjoy it.

569
00:34:51,933 --> 00:34:55,341
Yeah. It's actually something nice to think about because I think in

570
00:34:55,357 --> 00:34:59,152
the people have just come to tend to think

571
00:34:59,208 --> 00:35:02,760
that wine is associated with

572
00:35:02,952 --> 00:35:06,720
a celebration. Yeah, right. And that, which

573
00:35:06,752 --> 00:35:10,000
is nice because you elevate it. You elevate it.

574
00:35:10,112 --> 00:35:13,564
So the consumer in South Africa,

575
00:35:14,144 --> 00:35:16,964
is there a wine culture? Like,

576
00:35:17,904 --> 00:35:21,168
I had a party at our house Friday night. A bunch of guys,

577
00:35:21,256 --> 00:35:25,008
mostly well off guys, guys that have, you know, a career that have done well.

578
00:35:25,136 --> 00:35:28,944
And I had to build the seller. Oddly, when I sold

579
00:35:28,984 --> 00:35:32,824
my company, the buyer wanted nothing to do with my

580
00:35:32,944 --> 00:35:36,592
good stuff. I mean, nothing. Ground crude fees, classified

581
00:35:36,648 --> 00:35:39,976
growth, whatever I had here, because I was selling it, didn't want any of it.

582
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,072
So I had 2500 bottles. I had to find a place for it. And I

583
00:35:43,088 --> 00:35:45,872
don't have a cellar at home. I always had one here at the office. Right?

584
00:35:45,968 --> 00:35:49,520
Yeah. And so here now this beautiful rack. And they're walking

585
00:35:49,552 --> 00:35:53,094
by. They all knew

586
00:35:53,434 --> 00:35:57,218
when they looked at the rack, what was there. They could, you know, they just.

587
00:35:57,306 --> 00:36:01,130
They knew. Is there. Is there. Because the industry's

588
00:36:01,202 --> 00:36:04,874
not new, but it's younger. Is there a wine culture in South

589
00:36:04,914 --> 00:36:08,706
Africa? People definitely. I mean, South Africa

590
00:36:08,810 --> 00:36:12,546
people consume wine on the regular. Some are more

591
00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:16,378
per capita than Americans. Yeah, probably. And I mean, the one thing about South

592
00:36:16,426 --> 00:36:20,258
Africa is it's anything like proper wine list. I mean, the only reason why people

593
00:36:20,306 --> 00:36:23,954
look at a bottle of Lafitte and immediately know it's. It's a very expensive

594
00:36:24,034 --> 00:36:27,426
wine is because, I mean, the story has been built up for so many years,

595
00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:31,242
and the whole hype around all these first growths and grand Cru

596
00:36:31,378 --> 00:36:35,218
has been there for as long as or much more years

597
00:36:35,346 --> 00:36:39,146
than South Africa. And that's the thing with the south african market, is it's still

598
00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:42,586
slowly but surely getting to the point where it's

599
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:46,484
standing up as the quality and the big brands.

600
00:36:46,524 --> 00:36:50,268
And people are aware of the brands in South Africa, and

601
00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:53,900
then the wine drinking community is big. I mean, it's very

602
00:36:53,932 --> 00:36:57,268
fashionable at the moment, and there's a lot of wine bars opening up.

603
00:36:57,316 --> 00:37:01,116
And so people want to go out, they want to sit, they want to

604
00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:04,828
taste a few different glasses, and they'll even play. They'll pay a higher

605
00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:08,716
price for a better quality glass than just to drink your normal

606
00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:12,546
table wine. And especially eating out, people will always

607
00:37:12,610 --> 00:37:16,450
order a bottle of wine instead of a few beers. So

608
00:37:16,522 --> 00:37:20,266
the wine and the gastronomical thing about around wine

609
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:23,730
in South Africa is big being understood. And, I mean,

610
00:37:23,762 --> 00:37:27,482
it's. In South Africa, we, especially in Cape Town, we

611
00:37:27,498 --> 00:37:30,618
spoil it for choice, because when you have all of the good restaurants and you

612
00:37:30,626 --> 00:37:34,378
have all of the wine farms in Jo Berg, which is high up and

613
00:37:34,466 --> 00:37:37,794
north in the middle of the country, they don't have the wine

614
00:37:37,834 --> 00:37:41,672
farms, but they have more bargaining power in terms of

615
00:37:41,728 --> 00:37:45,504
spending money. And then there they consume four or five times the amount

616
00:37:45,544 --> 00:37:49,176
of wine as the Capetonians. So the wine drinking

617
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,484
community is checking that. I gotta look that up because the

618
00:37:53,024 --> 00:37:56,752
wine consumption per capita, America is like 54th in the world.

619
00:37:56,808 --> 00:38:00,600
And you know, the number one consumption per capita country

620
00:38:00,632 --> 00:38:04,000
in the. Yes, you're the only. Oh, my

621
00:38:04,032 --> 00:38:07,728
God. You're the only person who's never know. That's my favorite trivia

622
00:38:07,776 --> 00:38:11,528
question of all time. You're the only person who's ever answered that a

623
00:38:11,536 --> 00:38:15,208
lot. Really. That's really funny. That's it there. That's really

624
00:38:15,256 --> 00:38:17,284
funny. Full marks for me for today.

625
00:38:19,744 --> 00:38:23,472
What is the directive, then, from the french family to you, as

626
00:38:23,488 --> 00:38:26,984
the winemaker? Produce the best I can. We want to make money.

627
00:38:27,024 --> 00:38:30,512
What, what's. Well, for now, I mean, obviously there was a massive capital

628
00:38:30,608 --> 00:38:34,348
investment. It's not going to. We're not going to win that back immediately.

629
00:38:34,516 --> 00:38:38,252
But for them, it's. I mean, it's still a business and obviously

630
00:38:38,268 --> 00:38:42,024
the business needs to tick over. So the. We

631
00:38:42,324 --> 00:38:45,948
need. The honeymoon phase of spending money is gone now.

632
00:38:46,036 --> 00:38:49,116
Yeah. Now it's the time for us to get out there and to get the

633
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:52,572
product sold. So the property, it's definitely

634
00:38:52,628 --> 00:38:56,268
firstly an investment. But, I mean, for them, the

635
00:38:56,316 --> 00:38:59,834
owner once said it's. For him, it almost feels like

636
00:39:00,294 --> 00:39:03,918
in South Africa, he said he thinks that

637
00:39:03,966 --> 00:39:07,606
France is more third world than South Africa. Because South Africa, we actually

638
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:11,366
get stuff done, which is true, because we go getters, we want to

639
00:39:11,390 --> 00:39:15,118
go out and we want to get the product out and. Are you trying to

640
00:39:15,126 --> 00:39:18,662
say French is socialism? I'm not saying they're slow,

641
00:39:18,798 --> 00:39:22,486
saying maybe it takes a bit longer for something to be fixed, especially. I mean,

642
00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:26,252
when I was working in Provence, pipe breaks, it takes two, three weeks for

643
00:39:26,268 --> 00:39:30,060
someone to come. And South Africa, it's done on the

644
00:39:30,092 --> 00:39:33,508
same day or the next day.

645
00:39:33,676 --> 00:39:37,292
So the vision for the French is obviously to expand their

646
00:39:37,348 --> 00:39:40,996
portfolio, which was the southern hemisphere,

647
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,900
but to produce wines of distinction,

648
00:39:44,932 --> 00:39:48,380
and I mean, Thai bush, we want to grow to one of

649
00:39:48,412 --> 00:39:52,048
the most best known Bordeaux style

650
00:39:52,096 --> 00:39:55,616
blends in South Africa. And Lachon,

651
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,520
that's the wine. We own a big property. It's the biggest property of the

652
00:39:59,552 --> 00:40:03,244
three. It's 140 acres, which. 75

653
00:40:03,584 --> 00:40:07,216
acres. So it's big for south african properties

654
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,032
and we want Lachon to grow

655
00:40:11,208 --> 00:40:14,992
and to be seen as one of the strongest brands in South Africa. So is

656
00:40:15,008 --> 00:40:18,776
that correct? Because they have wineries in Sicily, Italy. I mean,

657
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,450
the Sicily and the provence and other parts of the world. Has

658
00:40:22,482 --> 00:40:26,186
that created an instant logistical chain to

659
00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:29,874
follow that you can take out of South Africa into these other

660
00:40:29,914 --> 00:40:32,626
parts of the world? Yes. Is that part of it? So that's what we do.

661
00:40:32,650 --> 00:40:36,378
I mean, we use the properties to distribute

662
00:40:36,426 --> 00:40:39,930
our wine and to sell our wine from. But for them, the idea

663
00:40:39,962 --> 00:40:43,090
was pretty much to get all of the

664
00:40:43,122 --> 00:40:46,970
properties and to combine everything and to get it out to

665
00:40:47,002 --> 00:40:50,610
market as competitors in international trade.

666
00:40:50,682 --> 00:40:53,898
So we obviously use the urus, or the

667
00:40:53,946 --> 00:40:57,722
distribution of our wine, into France, through them

668
00:40:57,778 --> 00:41:01,314
into Sicily and from France, they distribute throughout

669
00:41:01,354 --> 00:41:05,034
Europe. So it's an easier way to get the wine to the other

670
00:41:05,074 --> 00:41:08,786
side of the world and to distribute it from there. Sounds like

671
00:41:08,810 --> 00:41:12,210
a brilliant plan, actually. I've never heard wine. It's like sitting

672
00:41:12,242 --> 00:41:16,070
around a campfire, and this is the next big

673
00:41:16,102 --> 00:41:18,270
thing. This is how we're going to do it. This is how we're going to

674
00:41:18,302 --> 00:41:21,990
structure it. I mean, he picked a tough racket, but a

675
00:41:22,022 --> 00:41:25,750
brilliant scheme because logistics are so difficult in this trade right

676
00:41:25,782 --> 00:41:29,502
now. What happened during COVID in South Africa

677
00:41:29,638 --> 00:41:33,126
with wine? Well, first of all, what happened? Was there a complete

678
00:41:33,150 --> 00:41:36,710
shutdown? Lockdown. COVID was. I mean, it was a

679
00:41:36,742 --> 00:41:40,094
complete, complete shutdown. We weren't allowed to

680
00:41:40,134 --> 00:41:43,778
sell any alcohol, really, or any

681
00:41:43,826 --> 00:41:47,258
cigarettes. So basically everything closed down for

682
00:41:47,386 --> 00:41:50,922
about four or five months. Completely? Well, at

683
00:41:50,938 --> 00:41:54,306
least four or five months. You can imagine. Well, it was probably more. I can't

684
00:41:54,330 --> 00:41:58,034
even remember. So COVID was. I mean, our first vintage

685
00:41:58,074 --> 00:42:01,730
of the pink Valley, which is our rosai. We basically

686
00:42:01,802 --> 00:42:05,258
couldn't get half of it or 10th of it sold

687
00:42:05,306 --> 00:42:09,042
because everything was shut down. I think we were the biggest consumers of our

688
00:42:09,058 --> 00:42:12,882
own product because we were staying on the property. We had

689
00:42:12,898 --> 00:42:16,642
the whole cellar full of wine, so we could drink a

690
00:42:16,658 --> 00:42:20,146
lot of it, but, I mean, we couldn't sell it at all. And if you

691
00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:23,722
could have sold it, bootlegged it, whatever. But, I mean, if they caught you, you'd

692
00:42:23,738 --> 00:42:27,306
have lost your liquor license, and then you're in bigger, bigger shit when

693
00:42:27,330 --> 00:42:30,666
you actually have to start reselling again. So COVID times were

694
00:42:30,690 --> 00:42:34,498
tough. Luckily, our reds wasn't launched yet, so it

695
00:42:34,506 --> 00:42:37,850
was launched after COVID. But COVID killed a lot

696
00:42:37,882 --> 00:42:41,094
of properties in Stellenbosch or in South

697
00:42:41,134 --> 00:42:44,798
Africa as a whole. Well, that's the problem you guys have there. In South

698
00:42:44,846 --> 00:42:48,486
Africa, particularly Stellenbosch, your governor doesn't own a winery.

699
00:42:48,590 --> 00:42:52,086
Yeah. And so when COVID. When lockdown came to

700
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:55,918
LA in March of 2019, I think,

701
00:42:55,966 --> 00:42:59,354
right. Or 2020, the.

702
00:43:00,374 --> 00:43:03,726
I was calling on the phone my other

703
00:43:03,790 --> 00:43:06,694
vendors, because a lot of my vendors that sold wine

704
00:43:07,234 --> 00:43:10,674
sold food, and I had one in particular, brings in really fine italian

705
00:43:10,714 --> 00:43:14,534
foods. I was turning my wine shop into a deli,

706
00:43:14,834 --> 00:43:18,554
you know, so it'd be a market, so I would stay open. Yeah. And

707
00:43:18,714 --> 00:43:22,282
an hour after that announcement, Gavin Newsom, our governor,

708
00:43:22,338 --> 00:43:26,134
announced that wineries were exempt from this problem.

709
00:43:27,034 --> 00:43:30,866
Why? He owns two wineries or his partners in two big wineries in

710
00:43:30,890 --> 00:43:34,530
Napa. Well, I have a winery license here, so

711
00:43:34,562 --> 00:43:37,914
I'm like, cool, I'm open. Right? And then we

712
00:43:37,954 --> 00:43:41,562
did 30 or 40% more volume in those twelve

713
00:43:41,618 --> 00:43:45,254
months than we did the previous twelve months. But oddly,

714
00:43:45,794 --> 00:43:49,146
it plummeted. Literally to the day

715
00:43:49,170 --> 00:43:52,434
that confinement was over, my

716
00:43:52,474 --> 00:43:56,174
sales plummeted to below 2019,

717
00:43:56,934 --> 00:44:00,726
considerably below. And so it was a good thing for

718
00:44:00,750 --> 00:44:04,554
a while. It was a really bad thing. And it.

719
00:44:05,054 --> 00:44:08,822
It really forced. Well, I'm 35 years into it.

720
00:44:08,838 --> 00:44:12,670
I'm tired anyway. But it did sort of force our hand, my wife

721
00:44:12,702 --> 00:44:15,902
and I, to decide to sell the company, because the year after

722
00:44:15,958 --> 00:44:19,510
that, it had not rebounded. It was very tough. Yeah,

723
00:44:19,542 --> 00:44:23,134
COVID was tough times. And luckily it's. It's passed by

724
00:44:23,174 --> 00:44:26,780
now. But, I mean, imagine not being able to sell. I mean,

725
00:44:26,812 --> 00:44:30,660
you saw. I can't imagine that we were basically. There was some time

726
00:44:30,692 --> 00:44:34,036
where we weren't even allowed to drive on the roads. It was like a

727
00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:37,908
complete shutdown. Wow. We weren't allowed to do anything, so

728
00:44:38,076 --> 00:44:41,732
it would have helped. And even exporting, we couldn't export. We

729
00:44:41,748 --> 00:44:45,564
couldn't do nothing. You couldn't put one. Basically just sitting

730
00:44:45,604 --> 00:44:49,276
there waiting for the bowl lockdown to

731
00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:53,046
sort of. To fees off. How

732
00:44:53,070 --> 00:44:55,674
would anybody survive that? You still got to pay the bills.

733
00:44:57,134 --> 00:45:00,886
Yeah, well, luckily for us, we had the french owners, which were

734
00:45:00,910 --> 00:45:04,486
quite not relaxed about the whole thing. But

735
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:08,350
when they said, it's fine, let's just get through this, and then we sort of

736
00:45:08,382 --> 00:45:12,102
restructure and kickstart with the new bang. But, I

737
00:45:12,118 --> 00:45:15,510
mean, if we had all of our other wines on the market, we would have

738
00:45:15,542 --> 00:45:19,334
also been in a very difficult position. Basically not making any

739
00:45:19,374 --> 00:45:23,216
revenue for a few months, period. Which is crazy.

740
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,992
That's nuts. I mean, if we had to shut down now, it will probably be

741
00:45:26,008 --> 00:45:29,444
the end of us because I think the patients would be over there.

742
00:45:30,744 --> 00:45:33,984
They'd be done with it. Exactly. So we're almost out of time

743
00:45:34,024 --> 00:45:37,444
already. What is on the horizon?

744
00:45:38,144 --> 00:45:41,976
Are we far enough along to be thinking about the future? Not other than what

745
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,924
we're making and how we're farming, but

746
00:45:46,064 --> 00:45:49,244
ideas for varietals, blends,

747
00:45:49,624 --> 00:45:52,764
new brands. Are we having those conversations yet?

748
00:45:53,264 --> 00:45:56,880
For now. Because we. I mean, because we knew in all three of our

749
00:45:56,912 --> 00:46:00,696
brands, we just want to focus on what we're doing at the moment and

750
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,480
to get each brand to the point where we can say, this is Pink

751
00:46:04,512 --> 00:46:07,904
Valley, this is Le Shawn, this is Thai Bush, and it's a very dominant

752
00:46:08,064 --> 00:46:11,888
wine or brand in each category. So

753
00:46:12,016 --> 00:46:15,692
not any new brands necessarily.

754
00:46:15,868 --> 00:46:19,692
Obviously, as the Lashan grow, we'll have to start thinking of

755
00:46:19,748 --> 00:46:23,580
maybe doing a new seller on a Lashan property in the pulkidrai, because

756
00:46:23,612 --> 00:46:27,020
we have a seller at Pink Valley and a seller at Tybush.

757
00:46:27,212 --> 00:46:30,900
And. Yeah, so it's not. The chances of a

758
00:46:30,932 --> 00:46:34,676
new brand in the next five years is very little.

759
00:46:34,780 --> 00:46:37,504
But, I mean, there's been some talk on maybe doing

760
00:46:38,844 --> 00:46:42,198
another funky piece of land close to the ocean

761
00:46:42,246 --> 00:46:45,806
and still by and doing something fun there. But,

762
00:46:45,950 --> 00:46:48,982
I mean, for now, we just want to kick start what we have and get

763
00:46:48,998 --> 00:46:52,766
it out there and get it into or force it into the faces

764
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:56,302
of as many people as possible. Including Californians?

765
00:46:56,398 --> 00:46:59,934
Including the Californias. So if you see the brands, buy it,

766
00:46:59,974 --> 00:47:03,646
taste it, enjoy it. Well, I hope the rest of this trip is successful. I

767
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:07,462
hope tonight you guys are doing a barbecue, sort of south african style, I

768
00:47:07,478 --> 00:47:09,154
think, and you're pouring some wines.

769
00:47:11,384 --> 00:47:15,008
It's kind of what needs to happen, I think, without going

770
00:47:15,056 --> 00:47:18,744
deep into that conversation, I think the industry is going back to

771
00:47:18,784 --> 00:47:22,472
those moments where those relationships are built,

772
00:47:22,608 --> 00:47:26,376
where that handshake matters, where that taste together

773
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,248
matters more than the price on the Internet. And we can

774
00:47:30,256 --> 00:47:33,924
only hope that's the case because you never win that battle

775
00:47:34,424 --> 00:47:37,906
and you cannot compete with Kim Kardashian when they're sending

776
00:47:37,930 --> 00:47:41,522
out instagrams every 15 seconds. It's just

777
00:47:41,578 --> 00:47:45,386
impossible. I think that's going to break eventually for the

778
00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:49,194
consumer anyway. And so I think you're doing the right thing. It's hard

779
00:47:49,234 --> 00:47:52,614
work. You show up, shake the hands, tell the story,

780
00:47:53,354 --> 00:47:56,994
and share. And share. It's the interaction. We always say we're more

781
00:47:57,154 --> 00:48:00,866
storytellers than winemakers, because when you're

782
00:48:00,890 --> 00:48:03,794
telling your story to a bunch of different people

783
00:48:03,874 --> 00:48:07,404
constantly, the best way to interact with people is

784
00:48:07,444 --> 00:48:11,108
through in house dinner or braai,

785
00:48:11,236 --> 00:48:14,884
and it's liquid ellipse, my friend. That's the most

786
00:48:14,924 --> 00:48:18,700
important thing. And get the product tasted, and then you move from

787
00:48:18,732 --> 00:48:22,464
there. Well, thank you for sharing the story today. Thank you.

788
00:48:22,764 --> 00:48:26,276
It was very fun. I know you have some jet lag, probably.

789
00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:29,264
Yeah. We've only been in for two days.

790
00:48:30,644 --> 00:48:33,974
First and out. It's good to see you. Thank you very

791
00:48:34,014 --> 00:48:36,314
much. Cheers. Bye, Donkey.

792
00:48:45,214 --> 00:48:48,590
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to

793
00:48:48,622 --> 00:48:51,774
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

794
00:48:51,934 --> 00:48:55,254
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.