South Africa Needs A Gavin Slabbert. He Believes In The Soil. Hear Him Here.

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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. We are in studio today, but to

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have a conversation for the second time with Josh Ratt's Gavin

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Brewer stabbard. Sorry, wine

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talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify and for the

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listeners, our disc filled up even though it wasn't full. And

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so we're retaking this and it's, it will get, cover a lot of ground a

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lot quicker this time around. Anyway, that's what happens. Hey, listen to Wanda

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Mann. She is an influencer and editor of the Psalm

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Journal in the east coast side of things, as well as the

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editor of the tasting panel, one of the trade bags that I regularly

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read. Really interesting conversation on her take on the wine industry and what's

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happening. But because we have our guests from South Africa

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today, I wanted you to tune in to Mae Elian Lankisong, and she

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is 98 years old. She was on the show about two months ago.

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She was alive when her parents Chateau was invaded by the

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Nazis and watched them literally shoot it up. She also hid

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three israeli families behind a wall and fed them for

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three months before their escape to Argentina. It's incredible conversation and

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her memory is unbelievable. But now while we're here, we're here to have a conversation

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with Josh and Gavin about the, the south african wine movement in

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America. Welcome to the show. Thank you. So we're talking,

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we covered some of this ground already, but just for

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the lay of the lamp, for the listeners, it's not easy to get to America

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from South Africa. I mean, this is a long haul. It's a long

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flight, but I won't have it any other way

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to be in the states for these two weeks and to meet fine people like

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you, Paul. Well, I appreciate that. There's definitely easier ways to get to than

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the route Gavin and I took. Now is this because of, I mean. Is it

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expensive to do this just where we needed to end

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up and just the connecting flights? But, you

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know, I started off by saying when you fly from here,

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the states to South Africa is direct flights. So it's not,

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you don't have to go through Europe and reconnect there. You can fly directly from

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Cape Town into Atlanta with Delta or into New York with

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United. So getting from South Africa or getting

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from the states to South Africa is actually quite

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easy and not that difficult to fly

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to do. Do you know Peter Kauf, master of

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wine, one of the few south african master of wines.

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He's here in America. I gotta have to connect you guys. That would be good.

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He's great. I've been helping him with his website. It's very

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interesting. Since you got the marketeer here, we'll talk about that. But

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I called him and said, look, I had a conversation with May

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Elian, I need to get to South Africa soon.

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And I asked him for the same instructions

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on how to get there and he said the same thing. But then he asked

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me, hey, I haven't been able to sell any wine and I'm trying to figure

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that out. Can you help me do that? I said, sure. Okay, I'll trade you

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on this. But the lay of the land for South Africa.

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We don't see a lot of south african wines here. And we were discussing a

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little bit that New York, the east coast has always been more

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prolific when it comes to imports. Maybe because of its proximity to

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Europe. But if you walk into a wine shop in

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Europe, I mean, in New York you can see many, many more imported

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wines and there's many, many more importers in the east coast than there are on

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the west coast. And so here on the west coast, trying to get your

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name out. Tell me the lay of the land in South Africa. If I come

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to South Africa as one of the listeners, where would I go? Where would be

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the best place to go? So you fly into Cape Town

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and you land at Cape Town International

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Airport. And around you you have six to seven loose standing

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mountains that basically rise up out of the ocean and

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hugging these mountains.

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Halderberg, Stellenbosch mountain.

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Simonsburg, Boca, dry hills. Those four

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mountains hills is where Stellenbosch

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is located. And we are from

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Stellenbosch. So I really, you know, that is where my

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love for wine lies, is in Stellenbosch, in our little ward,

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which is poker, dry hills. But then, you know, you still have the

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Swartland, you have Himmel and Arde, you have

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the Robertson Valley. And all of these wine

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regions are in very close proximity from north to south, east to

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west. 100 and 5200 kilometers. Highly condensed.

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Highly condensed, not a large.

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You're speaking kilometers to Americans. Yeah, that was when I said it. I

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thought, you know, it's easy to pound. Take two thirds of that 20

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pounds. Divided by two, you got

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10,

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is a little bit more. Two thirds. Two thirds. Yeah, basically,

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yeah. So is South African appellated that way in

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America, if you are in Napa and let's say you want to be a Rutherford

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Oakville, whatever sub region there is to Napa.

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It's quite a federal event to create a sub

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appellation out of a larger one. Is Stellenbosch being a larger appalachian? Yeah. So

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you've got coastal region and then within that you'll

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have Constantia, Cape Town,

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Stellenbosch. But all of these are, I think the.

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If I have it correctly, I think in 1972 the wine

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of origin scheme was promulgated in South

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Africa. And you're right, it's not easy to. Our ward in

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Stellenbosch, Polkadria Hills is the youngest declared ward

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in Stellenbosch. And that was done in. I think the final paperwork went through

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in 2006. But we dramatically different than

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the other sub wards of

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Stellenbosch. And you have to have that differentiation

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to be able to apply for your own

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classification. We're going to talk a

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lot about marketing today, but do South Africans

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relate themselves to a particular region?

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Napa is a great example. Not a lot of people would say, yeah, I can

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tell. Additionally the Rethford, Oakville or certainly the mountains. It's a little easier to

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tell the terroir. But would a South Africa, a general south

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african consumer of wine say, yes, I know what stellebash

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means, I know what Cape Town means, I know it. So I think the

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modern wine era

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in South Africa, you know, we talked about 350 years.

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That's how old, plus how old our industry is. You know, we seen as

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both new world and old world because of the amount of years or the, you

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know, the. The length of time that we've been producing

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wines. But then how old our soils are, the climate we have relatively warm, but

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maritime. And saying that,

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you know, I think there was a. It was

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referred to as a revolution. It was in Swartland, which is an area,

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one of the areas in South Africa. And they

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created hype around what they. What they are doing.

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We were before

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more controlled by larger cooperatives.

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And post 94, after our freedom, democratic

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election, things opened up and we started focusing more on identity

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of independence and focusing on what works, in what

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areas. And they really kick started it, that revolution.

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But subsequently the other regions have really up their

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game in identifying what their uniqueness and

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strong points are. And to a general south african

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consumer, yes, he's very aware of whether the wine is from Swartland,

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Himmelan, odd and Stellenbosch, firstly because of the style,

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secondly because of what they are doing there. They are different

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in what works in those areas. And then thirdly because there's

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a focus on quality, you know, and focus on quality is

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strongly related and correlated with

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a place and sense of place and identity of place, I think you'll

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find. It'S pretty clear which each region is

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doing and stylistically, variety, all those kind of things, it's pretty clear

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what they're. What the different regions are doing and focusing on. So

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for the consumer in South Africa, it's pretty clear. If you like Pinot Noir, you

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go to the Yemen order. If you like Cab Sav, you'll go to Stellenbosch. So

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it's pretty clear what the difference. Pinot Noir from South Africa. Yes.

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When did they start happening? Amazing. Pinot Noir. Amazing. With

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Pinot's from Burgundy becoming so difficult

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and exclusive to attain because of scarcity and

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price point, people are looking to other areas and

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we talked about it, whether we new or the old world, a lot of

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burgundian drinkers are happy to

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pivot towards south african pinot or shad because of the

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style that sits narrowly. Interesting thought on the marketing

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side, things. I was at a. There's a restaurant here. Are you guys going to

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the beach cities while you're here? To Manhattan? Hermosa. We're going to Santa Monica. We're

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going to Santa Monica. We're going to go up to Venice beach for one day.

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They're going to be close. I haunt

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Hermosa beach, which is just south of Venice. There's a restaurant there called

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Arthur J. It's very well known, very exclusive. Wonderful list of wines.

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And when I go there, I often get the wine oldest

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dirt, which is a south african wine. Yeah, yeah. And it's

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fabulous. And every time I order it, the waiter, the psalm

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goes, you know, tilts their head and says, what? How do you know about this?

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And because there aren't a lot around. And now you're telling

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me Pinot Noir is coming from there? And

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Pinot is such a conduit to the soil.

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What are we getting out of South Africa when it comes to Pinot? Because Burgundy's

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burgundy. Let me just back up one more second. It

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used to be in California, you would say, oh, this is very burgundian.

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You would compare yourself to Burgundy, when in reality, it's

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nothing like it. Right. Tell me about the south african

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pinots that are being grown. So I think, you know, that's also

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something that I feel very strongly about. We mustn't try

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and say it is alike. You know, we

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can say our wines are of this quality because of

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that reason, and it compares because it

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is of a premium producer

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that does it very well. The soils, like you said,

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it's granite. There's a little bit of limestone, they've got

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proximity to ocean, there's a bit of altitude, so it's split

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into tiers. But the wine show fruit purity.

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It has a little bit of a

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nuanced, you know, herbaceousness or

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spice, depending on the soil that it's grown on.

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But it's got this beautiful, seamless

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freshness to it as well. And it's classic, but it's

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purely south african. And I always say, you know, whether you're

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drinking Chenin blanc, which we specialize in, which is very important for us,

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or whether you're drinking Pinot from, you'll always have the thumbprint

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of the african sun on the wines, you know, that will be there, you will

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taste it in the wines. But we don't produce it

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overtly sweet or overtly extracted, because we understanding our

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terroirs, we're focusing in what works where, which I've said a couple of

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times now. And because we're understanding our terroir, we can better

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use that resource in the cellar to really produce terroir specific

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wines. So let's discuss terroir for a second, because

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90, you, you said that in 94 is about

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when you think the technology and the idea of a current

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marketplace for wine in South Africa started, even though it's been there for

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350 years. And I had a conversation with a winemaker in

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Missouri. Yes. And he is propagating

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american grapes of Vitis

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Lambrusco. So it's not Vitis Vinefera grapes or the wine grapes,

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but I was sort of looking at him cross eyed, going, what is, what are

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you thinking? Because you have zero history. You have

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nothing to help you understand what this can

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produce. But even 1994 is not old, right?

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I mean, this is relatively young. How are you managing,

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understanding what this terroir is delivering to you?

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So, you know, at that stage,

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you know, winemakers traveled, man, you need

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to understand what is happening in other areas. You need to work in other

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areas. You need to bring that knowledge back, that technology,

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and then implement it on your unique resources that you have,

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your soils, your climate and the grapes that you have.

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And even though it's young, I think

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the progress that we've made in the last 25 years has been immense. We're

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the darling of a lot of wine

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journalists across the world. You know, our traditional

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trade partners, which has always been to Europe because of

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history, you know, our

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biggest export market has always been the UK,

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but the quality, you know, that has been exported has just

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grown in leaps and bounds, and that is because of

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producers coming into the game, bringing that

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expertise that they've built up and that experiences and investing

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that into this exciting region, which is South Africa.

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And we spoke about it earlier. The big thing,

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you know, and talking about this Missouri and Vitis

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lbruska. I think the consumer, and this is where

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the marketer and the young agenda, they want things that are evolving.

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That's changing, that's different. You know, the traditional wine drinker

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was, I buy my six bottles of

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romani conti, or my six bottles.

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That's a great example, or whatever. I buy that

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religiously each year. The allocation is. The new consumer doesn't

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necessarily want to build a seller of deepwater. He wants to buy something

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tonight and drink it this evening. And it's fresh and it's evolving.

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And I think it goes more towards looking at

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what is unique from your area, what is differentiates you, what

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makes you different. And we in South Africa look at

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sin and Blanc. That's our one variety that differentiates us from any other

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new world area. It's known because it's a french variety from the Loire.

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But we in South Africa have 65% of the world's planting of this

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variety. So we use that as our calling card. I'm obviously

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very biased. I think it's bloody amazing, the wines that we make of it.

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But there are people that, you know, masters of

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wines, journalists for a lot of different

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publications that also, you know, underline this. And we

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have. We've got a group of american

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psalms coming to South Africa. They're visiting us in late May. There

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is awareness, there is an excitement, but, you know, route to

249
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market is a difficult route to follow. And

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that's why we're here the next two weeks. That's why he's sitting right there. That's

251
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certainly. Well, it's interesting point, because sort of validates what I was saying in that

252
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you have many, many, many years of experience with Chenin blanc. Not only your

253
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winery and your family, but South Africa in general. And Chen and

254
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Blanc being a very versatile grape, it can make sparkling wine dry, it can make

255
00:15:40,722 --> 00:15:44,546
sweet, late harvest dry dessert wines and

256
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everything in between. And we grow some here in

257
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California. You do? But not a lot. No. And

258
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because this industry is so slow, it's one year at a time that you get

259
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to play with what you're given. And despite the billions of variables that

260
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could occur to create the grape that you're harvesting

261
00:16:03,838 --> 00:16:06,954
and making wine from, you know, it takes a long,

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slow, arduous trail to make what you think

263
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is specific to where you're being representing, and I mean,

264
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I think in the world of wine, if you're not representing a sense of time

265
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and a sense of place, you've already missed some part of this

266
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industry unless you're trying to be part of the supermarkets of all

267
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the sugared up stuff that we drink. So I think that's a

268
00:16:29,290 --> 00:16:33,082
really valid point. Look, you never know. Look

269
00:16:33,098 --> 00:16:36,730
at Sancerre. Yeah. You could buy Sancerre all

270
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day long ten years ago, and now you can't touch it. The prices have gone

271
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through the roof and Shannon could take that path. Is it

272
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because you guys come here once a year and you start waving the flag?

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Poor people. These wines, you know, it's, it's a little bit like, it's

274
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a little bit like, you know, in the trenches. Yeah, we walk in the

275
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streets, we meeting, and it's not, you don't go only in

276
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at the top,

277
00:17:02,374 --> 00:17:05,674
you know, don't only talk with the high distributors,

278
00:17:06,134 --> 00:17:09,774
the vice presidents and the presidents. We ride through from the,

279
00:17:09,894 --> 00:17:12,798
you know, we, we talking to the guys that, that sell it. We're talking to

280
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the guys that buy it. We're talking to the guys that eventually drink it. So

281
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it's multifaceted, these trips, you know, and, and exposed, exposing

282
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our brands to people, you know,

283
00:17:24,254 --> 00:17:28,086
it's a long and hard way of doing it, but you

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create awareness and then you create, I always say that, you

285
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know, and this is now not strictly how we do it here, but

286
00:17:35,734 --> 00:17:39,470
the greatest ambassador for our wine region, we create by

287
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getting people in South Africa. You come to South

288
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Africa, you experience the Winelands, the beauty of it,

289
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the tourism around it. You fly an hour and a

290
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half north to the bush, you experience the

291
00:17:54,148 --> 00:17:57,276
wildlife, you experience the whole of South Africa. The

292
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friendliness. Those people that drink the wines, they come back and they are

293
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ambassadors. And that's normally, you know, these things. When

294
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we have a tasting and it'll be consumers, you'll have a group

295
00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:10,852
there. Have you been to South Africa? One will put up his hand. He said,

296
00:18:10,868 --> 00:18:14,308
the most amazing experience I've ever had in my life. And I brought my friends

297
00:18:14,356 --> 00:18:18,020
to taste the wines today because I tell them they must go there. Kind of

298
00:18:18,052 --> 00:18:21,812
excitement that we now, it's a little spark, but we want to fuel that

299
00:18:21,948 --> 00:18:25,660
and use that. You know, there's a million other strategies that you can

300
00:18:25,692 --> 00:18:29,100
do it on a more formal basis, but we here to create that

301
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excitement for what we do. And once they taste the wines, you

302
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:36,504
know, it's easy because the wines are bloody delicious. That's right.

303
00:18:36,804 --> 00:18:39,580
Well, no, it's an interesting point of today's

304
00:18:39,692 --> 00:18:43,372
marketplace, and this is my thought process. Maybe we'll hear from the

305
00:18:43,388 --> 00:18:46,964
marketeer on this. I think the Internet

306
00:18:47,004 --> 00:18:50,772
has done a disservice to wine world, even though sales volume is up

307
00:18:50,788 --> 00:18:53,900
because people can buy on the Internet. But what it's done is created a consumer

308
00:18:53,932 --> 00:18:57,156
who's a very, very priced conscious and much

309
00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:01,012
less varietal and or terroir conscious. And I

310
00:19:01,028 --> 00:19:04,500
can only based on my experience, for instance, when we are on

311
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Amazon, which was legal at some point, the only wine we ever

312
00:19:08,364 --> 00:19:11,600
sold, and I put my whole portfolio up there, I mean,

313
00:19:11,632 --> 00:19:14,924
Burgundy's and Bordeaux and Napas, whatever was

314
00:19:15,824 --> 00:19:19,352
Moscato Diosti from Stella Rosa, you know, that

315
00:19:19,488 --> 00:19:23,016
700,000 case per. You know, and the reason

316
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,432
is that person shopping for something that they know and

317
00:19:26,448 --> 00:19:30,200
understand, they're not shopping to look around and have feel

318
00:19:30,232 --> 00:19:32,944
it. The only way you can do that is to do what you're doing. Have

319
00:19:32,984 --> 00:19:36,336
dinners, taste the wine, put it in a glass. And I

320
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,412
believe in the picture behind you in this patch here

321
00:19:39,508 --> 00:19:43,276
represents a time of wine that we need to go back to,

322
00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:46,504
or going back to, which is the experiential

323
00:19:47,564 --> 00:19:51,196
conversation over a glass. Talk to each other about

324
00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:54,516
what's going on in that glass while you're having it. Whether you're an educated

325
00:19:54,580 --> 00:19:58,220
buyer or taster or not, doesn't really matter, you know,

326
00:19:58,252 --> 00:20:01,660
quality when you taste it. Have you when you come to

327
00:20:01,692 --> 00:20:05,076
America? Well, first of all, is that the case in South Africa or does everybody.

328
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:08,606
Kind of know what's going on in terms of South Africa? You

329
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:11,918
know, Africa, I don't want to say it's a little bit behind the rest of

330
00:20:11,926 --> 00:20:15,038
the world in that, in that sense. But I find that

331
00:20:15,086 --> 00:20:18,154
personalized experience is still very big

332
00:20:18,654 --> 00:20:22,390
because we don't have the biggest online markets and it's still a very growing

333
00:20:22,422 --> 00:20:26,254
thing in South Africa. You still get a lot of people

334
00:20:26,414 --> 00:20:29,314
coming door to door doing tastings one on one

335
00:20:30,174 --> 00:20:33,566
at your winery. So I think in South Africa itself, I think that's

336
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:37,336
still very much the case that people do

337
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,064
the personalized experience. Do the chats show you around the, the

338
00:20:41,104 --> 00:20:44,760
vineyards and the, and the seller? So I think in South

339
00:20:44,792 --> 00:20:48,536
Africa that is, that's how it is. Obviously, the rest of the world is

340
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,164
a little bit more Internet driven and things.

341
00:20:52,504 --> 00:20:56,296
So, yes, I think it's tough. But yeah, in South Africa, I definitely, I

342
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,644
feel like especially the younger generations still

343
00:21:00,084 --> 00:21:03,852
want human contact and conversation and see things in

344
00:21:03,868 --> 00:21:07,692
front of the eyes. So I think that's very important. And if

345
00:21:07,828 --> 00:21:11,276
you lose that, you sort of. You lose a big part of your market

346
00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:14,852
because people don't know what they're buying. That's true, because all they see is your

347
00:21:14,868 --> 00:21:18,204
bottle. They don't know what it means, who's there, where it comes from.

348
00:21:18,244 --> 00:21:22,052
So it's very important to keep that human contact.

349
00:21:22,228 --> 00:21:25,948
I agree with that. It has a very romantic view of wine that eventually all

350
00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:29,766
generations end up with this particular glass of wine that turns them

351
00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:33,234
on to the idea of what wine can be. I don't believe.

352
00:21:33,734 --> 00:21:36,794
I'm Adam about this. That packaging is the solution.

353
00:21:37,414 --> 00:21:41,222
Yes, we can work about sustainability. I think sustainability in wine is probably

354
00:21:41,238 --> 00:21:44,742
the most appropriate industry to be sustainable. But

355
00:21:44,878 --> 00:21:48,070
the fact you put it in a plastic jar or a can or a bag

356
00:21:48,102 --> 00:21:51,510
in the box or a squished plastic pet bottle

357
00:21:51,662 --> 00:21:55,474
is not represent what's in the juice. That's not the point. You buy

358
00:21:55,514 --> 00:21:59,346
things for. You buy them for what you're talking about. This is experience. So to

359
00:21:59,370 --> 00:22:03,026
come back to a point that Gavin was alluding to is, I

360
00:22:03,050 --> 00:22:06,842
feel it's great to do these trips and to chat to people

361
00:22:06,898 --> 00:22:10,706
about your region, but to really, truly get someone to

362
00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:14,466
understand what you're talking about, you have to get

363
00:22:14,490 --> 00:22:17,454
them there because the magic's in the place. And

364
00:22:18,154 --> 00:22:21,612
if someone's standing there and you're showing them table Mountain and you telling them about

365
00:22:21,628 --> 00:22:24,812
this world and showing them the sea and they can see it for themselves, I

366
00:22:24,828 --> 00:22:28,264
think that's the big seller, and that's

367
00:22:29,524 --> 00:22:33,092
what people need to see to truly believe in the magic of a place. And,

368
00:22:33,108 --> 00:22:36,824
I mean, I think, like Evan said, we need to get people to South Africa

369
00:22:37,324 --> 00:22:41,104
to live it and to market it for us. You know, I think that's

370
00:22:42,164 --> 00:22:45,124
the biggest way to market your region, is to get people to see it and

371
00:22:45,164 --> 00:22:48,844
experience it for themselves. Is there a direct to consumer market

372
00:22:48,924 --> 00:22:52,546
in South Africa? You and I don't know the rules because there's 50

373
00:22:52,610 --> 00:22:55,894
rules here. More than 50. But there's 50 states that create 50 rules.

374
00:22:57,314 --> 00:22:59,814
Yeah, no, we can. We can sell directly, and it's.

375
00:23:01,234 --> 00:23:04,994
It's not as regulated as. There's obviously rules in place, but.

376
00:23:05,034 --> 00:23:08,294
But. But we can sell directly from the farm to the end consumer.

377
00:23:08,634 --> 00:23:12,058
But. But, um, so, you know, maybe just

378
00:23:12,186 --> 00:23:15,654
to jump onto it,

379
00:23:15,954 --> 00:23:19,666
there's a whole book on the. You know, and looking what. Why do we

380
00:23:19,690 --> 00:23:22,738
still drink wine? Why do we. You know, we drink wine because of the history

381
00:23:22,786 --> 00:23:25,994
and of this and that. Our history is relatively short. But we sitting here, we,

382
00:23:26,074 --> 00:23:29,842
you know, we second cousins. His father started our winery in 2000. So

383
00:23:29,858 --> 00:23:33,546
we about 25. We're 25 years old. 25 year anniversary. 25 year

384
00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:37,242
anniversary this year. We're a family business that

385
00:23:37,298 --> 00:23:40,858
focuses on the core of producing

386
00:23:41,026 --> 00:23:44,742
bespoke, specialized quality

387
00:23:44,798 --> 00:23:48,326
wines. That takes into

388
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:52,006
consideration what Aotearoa gives us, how we take care

389
00:23:52,030 --> 00:23:55,782
of our soils and our vineyards and then in the cellar,

390
00:23:55,878 --> 00:23:59,606
treat it with respect. And there's a little bit of

391
00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:03,422
romance to that, but we don't want to go and

392
00:24:03,518 --> 00:24:07,086
put our wines into pet little

393
00:24:07,150 --> 00:24:10,750
bottles and we can't do that. Whole industry is

394
00:24:10,782 --> 00:24:14,270
90,000 ha. That is not even 10% of what Italy

395
00:24:14,302 --> 00:24:18,150
produces, which is a million hectares, you know, so it's such a small industry. We

396
00:24:18,182 --> 00:24:21,918
need to focus on that, that special relationship,

397
00:24:21,966 --> 00:24:25,526
you know, telling our story, bringing what is different from

398
00:24:25,670 --> 00:24:28,914
us, you know, as a family, our focus on quality.

399
00:24:29,574 --> 00:24:33,374
The Chenin blanc and the Cabernet franc, we make and tell that story

400
00:24:33,414 --> 00:24:37,188
and that's why we are here. You know, it is a difficult way,

401
00:24:37,236 --> 00:24:40,916
but the volume isn't massive, but the

402
00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:43,184
quality focus and the story and

403
00:24:44,764 --> 00:24:48,388
the idea of South Africa being this magical place

404
00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:51,584
on the southern tip of Africa. Well, that's why I brought it up, because

405
00:24:53,244 --> 00:24:55,732
certainly if you come to South Africa, which is not the easiest trip in the

406
00:24:55,748 --> 00:24:59,492
world, we already discussed that. But even if you go to Napa and you're with

407
00:24:59,508 --> 00:25:02,964
your girlfriend, boyfriend, significant other, wedding

408
00:25:03,004 --> 00:25:06,762
party, bridal party, and you go to a winery and you sit and

409
00:25:06,778 --> 00:25:09,694
you laugh and you talk and you experience this brand

410
00:25:10,474 --> 00:25:13,946
and you join the club, for instance, which I was in the club business for

411
00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:17,754
35 years myself, which has now changed

412
00:25:17,794 --> 00:25:21,322
considerably. And the reason this change is that experience. And so certainly if we go

413
00:25:21,338 --> 00:25:24,370
to South Africa and go to your winery and

414
00:25:24,402 --> 00:25:28,214
taste, every time I see that bottle, I'm going to remember,

415
00:25:29,074 --> 00:25:32,424
particularly as late and after work, I'm tired,

416
00:25:33,004 --> 00:25:36,740
the kids are pulling my shirt tail, and I can have that glass

417
00:25:36,772 --> 00:25:40,612
of wine and drift away for a little bit. There's no other beverage in

418
00:25:40,628 --> 00:25:44,356
the world that creates that memory. And of

419
00:25:44,380 --> 00:25:46,624
course, with the human palate,

420
00:25:48,564 --> 00:25:52,292
the nose and your taste buds are the most memorable

421
00:25:52,428 --> 00:25:56,224
sense you have, right? You can smell

422
00:25:56,934 --> 00:26:00,594
like, we were in Paris and they served a quiche to me

423
00:26:00,974 --> 00:26:04,022
and I freaked. And my wife's like, what is wrong with you? I said, this

424
00:26:04,038 --> 00:26:07,790
is my mom's quiche from like 50 years ago. She would just say quiche,

425
00:26:07,822 --> 00:26:11,514
right? When you smell something, you go back then I think that's

426
00:26:11,814 --> 00:26:15,526
what's in your favor when it comes to the experiential part of wine,

427
00:26:15,550 --> 00:26:19,190
because otherwise, it's just, it's sweetened up

428
00:26:19,262 --> 00:26:23,094
something on the shelf, and it's an augmented reality label. And who cares?

429
00:26:23,134 --> 00:26:26,286
I mean, eventually, I already saw all the 19 crimes labels. I don't care

430
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:29,954
anymore. Please don't convict me of a crime.

431
00:26:32,174 --> 00:26:35,622
We want to create that excitement for South Africa. How do we do it? We

432
00:26:35,638 --> 00:26:39,222
do it by specialization. We say, come and visit us. We here, we're

433
00:26:39,238 --> 00:26:43,086
showcasing the wine. So food is very important.

434
00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:46,634
Obviously, wine and food is hand in hand. We use

435
00:26:47,654 --> 00:26:51,502
the concept of bry. This is what we do. This

436
00:26:51,518 --> 00:26:53,434
is our traditional way of

437
00:26:54,654 --> 00:26:58,502
preparing food. And it's over open fire. We use the

438
00:26:58,518 --> 00:27:02,154
hot coffee, and you see a meat or vegetables or

439
00:27:02,574 --> 00:27:06,198
breads or anything like this, and then you eat around a table and you share

440
00:27:06,246 --> 00:27:09,974
wine. And we're using that concept to create excitement

441
00:27:10,134 --> 00:27:13,950
for South Africa because that's something different that we do there. The way that we

442
00:27:13,982 --> 00:27:17,726
prepare it, the produce. You know, you think of Italy,

443
00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:21,430
you know, in the countryside, how great the produce is. You eat the fresh

444
00:27:21,462 --> 00:27:25,030
tomatoes. You remember your experiences in Tuscany,

445
00:27:25,062 --> 00:27:28,636
but in South Africa, we have that as well. We can also create that

446
00:27:28,750 --> 00:27:32,296
nostalgia if you come and visit it and if you come and see it. But

447
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,512
it's just a place that is so amazingly beautiful

448
00:27:35,608 --> 00:27:39,256
and full of potential. And,

449
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,880
you know, we want to turn people onto it. We want them to say,

450
00:27:43,032 --> 00:27:46,056
I want to try south african wine. And how are we doing? We're saying we're

451
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,856
doing the best wines, you know, from

452
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,280
the Southern Territory. So when you're here, let's get real. When you're

453
00:27:53,312 --> 00:27:56,844
here, you. You

454
00:27:56,884 --> 00:28:00,460
started well, this, this time you're on the west coast, you're visiting here, we're sitting,

455
00:28:00,492 --> 00:28:04,108
have a nice chat, but you're gonna go on to some account. You're gonna go

456
00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:05,948
to a restaurant now, are you gonna go to a retail store? What are you

457
00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:09,804
gonna do? So this evening, we're having one of these barbecues, but first

458
00:28:09,844 --> 00:28:13,624
we're gonna have. One of the tacos that suggested after the.

459
00:28:15,244 --> 00:28:18,652
Where are you going? Do you remember vendome? I

460
00:28:18,668 --> 00:28:22,474
think. Okay, I think it's account. It's an account. It's an account. Yeah. Vendome.

461
00:28:22,514 --> 00:28:25,666
There's one right down the street. I don't know. It's a small chain. I'm not

462
00:28:25,690 --> 00:28:29,522
sure exactly what. And so you're going to pour? You're going to eat and

463
00:28:29,538 --> 00:28:33,026
pour. People paid to come to this? Yes. And you're going to tell the

464
00:28:33,050 --> 00:28:36,546
story. That's it. And then these people are going to say, hey, you know,

465
00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:40,266
what? I'd like to buy a case. I have to tell you a funny

466
00:28:40,290 --> 00:28:43,906
story. Yesterday, I went to an organic tasting, biodynamic organic,

467
00:28:44,090 --> 00:28:47,916
and I actually bought something from the table. I filled out a

468
00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:51,716
form, and the guy yells in front, it's like 300 people. He goes,

469
00:28:51,780 --> 00:28:55,268
hey, guys, I sold something because no one ever does that. You

470
00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:58,796
know, on the trade side, no one ever fills out a form and places an

471
00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:02,468
order. But I know the guy. But the pull through

472
00:29:02,516 --> 00:29:06,348
volume from that point, from that conversation, from that experience,

473
00:29:06,436 --> 00:29:10,220
that handshake is what you're counting on. That's it. And that's why

474
00:29:10,252 --> 00:29:13,682
we believe that the important. The

475
00:29:13,698 --> 00:29:17,098
distributor that we're working with, when we leave, they'll follow up on that and they'll,

476
00:29:17,186 --> 00:29:20,674
you know, build that relationship and make sure so, you know,

477
00:29:20,754 --> 00:29:24,266
selling a bottle of wine, there's so many steps. You know,

478
00:29:24,370 --> 00:29:27,534
I've just finished the harvest. My last grapes came into the cellar

479
00:29:28,394 --> 00:29:32,218
in the 28 march. So for the listeners, it's because they're in the southern

480
00:29:32,226 --> 00:29:35,882
hemisphere. Yes, yes. I take things for granted. I apologize. It's because we're in the

481
00:29:35,898 --> 00:29:39,746
southern hemisphere. It's not because it was climate change and it's changed the

482
00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:43,560
whole. No, we blame a lot on that, by the way. So we harvest

483
00:29:43,592 --> 00:29:47,432
from early February to mid April,

484
00:29:47,528 --> 00:29:51,352
roughly. That's our harvest period. And we've just finished that. And now, you

485
00:29:51,368 --> 00:29:54,840
know, we've just finished that. We are now starting with our launches of our

486
00:29:54,872 --> 00:29:58,696
single vineyard wines in South Africa, which we sell directly. His father is

487
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,536
doing that. We've got on the plane to come and tell

488
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,176
the story here. When we're back in South Africa, it goes on and on and

489
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,936
on and on. So it's not. We sit back, make the wine, and

490
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,720
then go. Go on holiday for the rest of the year. There's such

491
00:30:13,752 --> 00:30:17,328
a massive after production work that

492
00:30:17,376 --> 00:30:20,784
goes on. And Josh is fundamental to that now. You know, stepping

493
00:30:20,824 --> 00:30:24,616
in and driving that awareness of what

494
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,408
we do. Our base is low, so there's a lot of opportunity

495
00:30:28,456 --> 00:30:31,984
for growth, I think, and I believe, and I hope

496
00:30:32,064 --> 00:30:35,710
that as people look for areas that

497
00:30:35,742 --> 00:30:39,382
are unique and different, they'll look to South Africa, they'll see the 350 years

498
00:30:39,398 --> 00:30:42,894
of legacy because we're looking at things that have a little bit of history around

499
00:30:42,934 --> 00:30:46,342
it. Yes, there is. What are they currently doing? Because we're living in

500
00:30:46,358 --> 00:30:50,086
the current climate

501
00:30:50,150 --> 00:30:53,998
and we're making wines that are extremely popular and it has a lot

502
00:30:54,006 --> 00:30:57,358
of value at price point. We haven't even discussed price

503
00:30:57,406 --> 00:31:01,166
point wines. The quality and the price point. I

504
00:31:01,190 --> 00:31:05,038
think you can't beat South Africa. Nowhere in the world you will have

505
00:31:05,086 --> 00:31:08,628
wines that have the amount of fruit,

506
00:31:08,756 --> 00:31:12,444
structure, elegance, drinkability that South

507
00:31:12,484 --> 00:31:14,732
Africa has. And that's across the price. We really go from

508
00:31:14,788 --> 00:31:18,620
2035 45. I just think South Africa

509
00:31:18,732 --> 00:31:22,252
offers so much at the different. And we started off by. You didn't even know

510
00:31:22,268 --> 00:31:26,044
South Africa makes pinot noir in the himalayan. Arnold. It's magic. I've never had one.

511
00:31:26,084 --> 00:31:29,932
It's magic. But Chen Blanc, Cabernet Franc, that's what we specialize in at

512
00:31:29,948 --> 00:31:33,424
Ross family wines. You know, pinotage, our

513
00:31:33,584 --> 00:31:37,224
heritage, variety, which is unique to us, that is being

514
00:31:37,304 --> 00:31:40,464
improved in leaps and bounds. And that's something that I think in future will be

515
00:31:40,504 --> 00:31:44,064
hugely popular as well. So there's so many things that is layered to

516
00:31:44,104 --> 00:31:47,616
this and we need to tell that story, but we're very excited to do it.

517
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,084
I. You know, I'm talking a lot now. When I visited

518
00:31:51,784 --> 00:31:55,496
Tuscany and specifically to taste the super Tuscans, you know, just to

519
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,086
get a bit of a. And the Antonori family we spoke to,

520
00:31:59,190 --> 00:32:02,870
and they said, you know, 600 years worth of heritage right there. They said it's

521
00:32:02,902 --> 00:32:06,606
only the first 200 years. That's difficult. After that, it's very easy.

522
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:10,174
You know, we had year 25 at the moment. That's right. And we are

523
00:32:10,214 --> 00:32:13,998
enjoying it tremendously, what we're doing. But that says volumes,

524
00:32:14,046 --> 00:32:17,070
really. This is one of the things I wrote down, which is you're really stewards

525
00:32:17,142 --> 00:32:20,966
of the next generation, because chances are you're not going to see the

526
00:32:20,990 --> 00:32:24,806
200 years yourself. So I hope so. I hope. Unless you're

527
00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:28,324
moses or something. Right. But you said a lot of stuff there is really

528
00:32:28,364 --> 00:32:32,028
important, because the price point in here, this wine of the month club originally was

529
00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:35,588
$15. You know, I would sell wine for $16 to $20

530
00:32:35,636 --> 00:32:39,372
and I would have to buy them, you know, pre cheap. And

531
00:32:39,388 --> 00:32:42,140
so that wasn't easy to do. And that not saying that's the reason I didn't

532
00:32:42,172 --> 00:32:45,716
do many South Africans, I did have access to them, but.

533
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:49,620
And I did. And I had no resistance to features south african. Why? Because

534
00:32:49,652 --> 00:32:52,804
I wanted to show. Yeah. In fact, when I first started, my father, the first

535
00:32:52,844 --> 00:32:55,930
thing that I was responsible for was buying a romanian wine. And that was still

536
00:32:55,962 --> 00:32:59,746
soviet then, and we found one, and so that's what we did. But what

537
00:32:59,770 --> 00:33:03,506
you're up against is, and I'm talking about for the listeners

538
00:33:03,530 --> 00:33:07,374
to understand our trade, is that if you're with a supplier

539
00:33:07,914 --> 00:33:11,410
and you've got a $15 wine or a $20 retail seller and you got a

540
00:33:11,442 --> 00:33:14,482
price point to sell wholesale so that somebody can pour it in a restaurant or

541
00:33:14,498 --> 00:33:17,810
put it on a shelf and make a dollar, which is not easy to do.

542
00:33:17,962 --> 00:33:21,754
You're up against the guy who walks into my office trying to sell

543
00:33:21,794 --> 00:33:25,178
me something. But an hour earlier he was in a sales

544
00:33:25,226 --> 00:33:28,786
meeting and the winery said, oh, by the way, if you sell ten cases

545
00:33:28,850 --> 00:33:32,202
today, I'm taking you to Hawaii. Right?

546
00:33:32,378 --> 00:33:36,162
These resources that these big houses have that have all this stuff that they put

547
00:33:36,178 --> 00:33:38,722
on the shelf. And so all of a sudden you're not in the book. You

548
00:33:38,738 --> 00:33:42,370
know, you're there and you've came out here and you had

549
00:33:42,402 --> 00:33:46,202
dinner, but, you know, the guy on the streets going, man, if I can

550
00:33:46,218 --> 00:33:49,084
sell a couple of cases, I got a free espresso machine, you know, you know,

551
00:33:49,504 --> 00:33:52,424
have you seen this kind of resistance or are your

552
00:33:52,464 --> 00:33:55,884
suppliers giving you the attention that you deserve?

553
00:33:56,784 --> 00:34:00,352
So, you know, we don't have

554
00:34:00,448 --> 00:34:03,960
the support from, you know, generic bodies and the

555
00:34:03,992 --> 00:34:07,720
budgets to do things like that. The exchange

556
00:34:07,752 --> 00:34:10,992
rate, and I mentioned it earlier when we had our first conversation, they ran to

557
00:34:11,008 --> 00:34:14,736
the dollar. It's fantastic for you as an american

558
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,504
visitor to come to South Africa because you've got a lot of

559
00:34:18,624 --> 00:34:22,311
bang for your buck, but the other way around,

560
00:34:22,447 --> 00:34:25,623
it's quite difficult. So we do. Our

561
00:34:25,783 --> 00:34:29,615
importer brings groups of people over to South Africa and

562
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:33,455
that's where a lot of the loyalty is.

563
00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:36,831
I wouldn't say bought. That's where a lot of the loyalty is built.

564
00:34:36,887 --> 00:34:40,399
Understood. But we don't believe in. And

565
00:34:40,431 --> 00:34:44,255
also that strategy is a little bit short sighted

566
00:34:44,279 --> 00:34:48,055
because I only sell that wine because I get something and then

567
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:51,769
the next guy. So that brand now loses behind because somebody else

568
00:34:51,801 --> 00:34:55,329
is offering a better reward for his ten K status. That's right.

569
00:34:55,441 --> 00:34:58,873
So that will never be part of our strategy. We'll rather

570
00:34:58,993 --> 00:35:02,729
make less wine, but better wine. And we hope that,

571
00:35:02,841 --> 00:35:06,201
you know, in the landscape the way we are, where people are drinking less and

572
00:35:06,217 --> 00:35:09,293
they're more aware of the alcohol and

573
00:35:10,393 --> 00:35:14,089
the nutrients in the wine, that they'll say, I'm not going to buy three

574
00:35:14,121 --> 00:35:17,904
bottles, I'm going to buy one good bottle and I'm going to buy a south

575
00:35:17,944 --> 00:35:21,608
african bottle. Yeah, that's what we're hoping. We're not having

576
00:35:21,656 --> 00:35:25,424
to chase these volumes and incentivize with a budget

577
00:35:25,464 --> 00:35:28,484
that we don't have, but we buy, not buy.

578
00:35:29,024 --> 00:35:32,872
We build loyalty and upon

579
00:35:32,928 --> 00:35:36,640
that we will drive and you earn loyalty.

580
00:35:36,712 --> 00:35:38,804
That's it. Build, earn, because

581
00:35:40,584 --> 00:35:44,106
those are never going to end. There's a group called the Adeny Global Group. They're

582
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:47,882
out of the Rhone Valley, but it's a think tank for wines.

583
00:35:48,058 --> 00:35:51,818
You got to check them out. And she made a comment to me.

584
00:35:51,826 --> 00:35:55,294
He's like, look, wine has always been about the consumer.

585
00:35:55,594 --> 00:35:59,282
I agree with that. So the question

586
00:35:59,338 --> 00:36:03,098
I have was, a lot of people go to Napa. I'm a doctor, I'm an

587
00:36:03,146 --> 00:36:06,906
asphalt contractor who made billions of dollars in making freeways.

588
00:36:07,050 --> 00:36:10,410
And I see this lifestyle in Napa, and I go, oh, my God, I would

589
00:36:10,442 --> 00:36:13,242
love to have the chateau, and I'd plant my vineyards, and I can walk out

590
00:36:13,258 --> 00:36:17,048
every morning, listen to the roosters, and then I gotta sell something. And all

591
00:36:17,056 --> 00:36:19,992
of a sudden, this is not so much fun and it's not so easy. Is

592
00:36:20,008 --> 00:36:23,824
there a contingency in South Africa where somebody, you know, wealthy family

593
00:36:23,904 --> 00:36:27,736
comes into the neighborhood, they go, I really want to be a wine person. Definitely

594
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,616
is happening also. But it's more. It's not south african people, it's

595
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,960
more european people coming and buying the farms.

596
00:36:35,072 --> 00:36:38,764
Gavin, why? They're cheaper than Bordeaux and Burgundy. Again,

597
00:36:39,904 --> 00:36:43,536
the hero. And the dollar goes quite far in the rand, and you can

598
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,126
purchase quite spectacular property. And it's happening quite a

599
00:36:47,150 --> 00:36:50,870
lot. They buy up, and then it's plugged into

600
00:36:50,982 --> 00:36:54,726
large distribution. But, you know, we

601
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:58,486
are independent. We are free to do what we want and how we want to

602
00:36:58,510 --> 00:37:02,286
do it. You know, we bring that individuality, and

603
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:06,062
maybe I haven't said it, you know, good enough, but 20 years

604
00:37:06,078 --> 00:37:09,870
ago, my cousin started what we do Rod's family once with a vision

605
00:37:10,062 --> 00:37:13,600
to produce Chennai blanc and Cabernet Francisco. To produce it in a way that is

606
00:37:13,632 --> 00:37:17,400
world class, to compete with the best from all

607
00:37:17,432 --> 00:37:21,016
over the world, and to do it like it

608
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,760
hasn't been done before. And we've been slowly chipping away at that. Where did this

609
00:37:24,792 --> 00:37:27,844
vision come from in the first place? So he,

610
00:37:28,544 --> 00:37:32,004
you know, he was a bit of a mavericker,

611
00:37:32,424 --> 00:37:36,104
and he studied wine, he

612
00:37:36,144 --> 00:37:39,896
worked abroad, and he saw. But everywhere in the

613
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,440
world where people are successful, they specialize and they focus.

614
00:37:43,592 --> 00:37:47,084
And in South Africa, we had a little bit of a shotgun approach

615
00:37:48,064 --> 00:37:51,512
we made from a moscato all the way through to a

616
00:37:51,528 --> 00:37:54,728
sweet cab, and we hoped we would sell anything. That

617
00:37:54,776 --> 00:37:58,600
specialization hadn't really happened. And he brought that vision

618
00:37:58,632 --> 00:38:02,400
and determination into our family business and established

619
00:38:02,512 --> 00:38:05,968
us as a winery that

620
00:38:06,016 --> 00:38:09,536
focuses on these two varieties. Chen Blanc obviously made sense because we

621
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,320
have more than half of the world's variety. We have old vineyards that

622
00:38:13,352 --> 00:38:17,192
make exceptional wines. We're planting new vineyards that is suited in the area.

623
00:38:17,288 --> 00:38:21,000
So we need to do that to rejuvenate, to better produce, to

624
00:38:21,032 --> 00:38:24,536
better understand, you know, the direction we are going in. And

625
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,936
Cabernet Franc, I think, you know, his classmates at the time thought he

626
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,736
was on designer drugs maybe when he chose Cabernet Frank, but it's.

627
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,460
Again, he did it because it

628
00:38:35,492 --> 00:38:39,284
suited to the area. And if you want to be sustainable, you know, we love

629
00:38:39,324 --> 00:38:43,132
using that word, you know, in all segments of the market and sales. But

630
00:38:43,148 --> 00:38:45,756
if you want to be sustainable, you need to focus on what works in your

631
00:38:45,780 --> 00:38:49,196
area. And those two varieties worked in our area. That

632
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:52,676
was 20 years ago. He started it with a backpack on his

633
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:56,580
shoulder. And now, you know, we can sit here, myself as his

634
00:38:56,612 --> 00:38:59,704
cousin and him as his son, and tell you the story. And we've been doing

635
00:38:59,744 --> 00:39:02,644
it for 25 years. It's only. But a little

636
00:39:02,984 --> 00:39:06,760
window curtain has opened only so much

637
00:39:06,832 --> 00:39:10,672
on what we are looking to achieve, you know, but it's a

638
00:39:10,688 --> 00:39:14,472
very exciting journey and it's something that's hell

639
00:39:14,488 --> 00:39:17,444
of a rewarding. And, you know, South Africa

640
00:39:17,944 --> 00:39:21,648
hasn't got the. It's not as well known in the States,

641
00:39:21,776 --> 00:39:25,220
but I think, you know, when this little secret

642
00:39:25,332 --> 00:39:29,108
gets out of the genie's bottle. Oh, man, oh, man.

643
00:39:29,196 --> 00:39:32,956
Hold us back. I'm looking forward to that. We just. You discussed

644
00:39:32,980 --> 00:39:36,708
pinotage for a second. I wanted to. For the listeners, pinotage. I

645
00:39:36,716 --> 00:39:39,908
mean, if you were to talk about south african wines ten years ago, 1520 years

646
00:39:39,916 --> 00:39:43,172
ago, that's all you talk about. Chen and Blanc and. And

647
00:39:43,308 --> 00:39:46,740
pinotage. And pinotage then was a very

648
00:39:46,812 --> 00:39:50,172
creole. So Tari, it's a hybrid between

649
00:39:50,228 --> 00:39:53,404
Ciso and, I think, pinot noir. Pinot Noir.

650
00:39:54,624 --> 00:39:58,424
But it had this very unusual character that was. It would

651
00:39:58,464 --> 00:40:02,008
put you off even in the nose. Was that indigenous

652
00:40:02,056 --> 00:40:05,680
to. So I think, you know, that's. If you think about

653
00:40:05,752 --> 00:40:09,144
the parental variety, senso pine

654
00:40:09,184 --> 00:40:12,784
noir. And during the period,

655
00:40:12,864 --> 00:40:16,480
the sixties, 1780s, when we were quite close, because of that

656
00:40:16,552 --> 00:40:19,896
terrible regime that we had in place, there was

657
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,712
an evolution of what we were doing. Things were being done the

658
00:40:23,728 --> 00:40:27,032
same. I think peanutage was probably produced in a

659
00:40:27,088 --> 00:40:29,844
way that

660
00:40:30,624 --> 00:40:34,416
didn't suit it because it wasn't cab, it wasn't. Syria didn't need extraction. It

661
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,872
needed to be picked earlier, it needed a lighter hand, it needed a little bit

662
00:40:37,888 --> 00:40:41,632
of whole cluster and whole berries, it needed a little

663
00:40:41,648 --> 00:40:45,466
bit of concrete, you know, these type of things. And stylistically,

664
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,254
pinotage has shifted gears, you know, like you won't

665
00:40:49,294 --> 00:40:53,110
believe the wines that are currently being produced are spice

666
00:40:53,182 --> 00:40:56,646
and perfumed and full of fruit and have all these

667
00:40:56,750 --> 00:41:00,550
fantastic, you know, components in it. But

668
00:41:00,582 --> 00:41:03,646
the focus of that stage was these two varieties, but with

669
00:41:03,790 --> 00:41:07,542
specialization and focus on areas, what works. You know,

670
00:41:07,718 --> 00:41:11,334
we've evolved and we've gone past that conversation. We make some of the greatest

671
00:41:11,374 --> 00:41:14,452
heroes in the world. We make some of the greatest. We make some of the

672
00:41:14,468 --> 00:41:17,544
greatest Cabernet franc in the world, even though we biased in saying that,

673
00:41:18,284 --> 00:41:21,956
you know, but peanutage is one of those things that are unique

674
00:41:22,020 --> 00:41:25,660
to South Africa and in a very competitive environment, you

675
00:41:25,692 --> 00:41:29,452
need differentiation, and that differentiates us, but we need to

676
00:41:29,468 --> 00:41:33,180
produce it in a way which I mentioned, because wine

677
00:41:33,212 --> 00:41:36,784
drinkers, you know, they'll move on very quickly if they don't like something. And

678
00:41:37,084 --> 00:41:40,916
when people visit South Africa, they always want to drink peanut butter. It's one

679
00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:44,552
thing, you come there, you want to taste it, and we can make it

680
00:41:44,648 --> 00:41:48,312
interesting and great. They only won't drink it because it's a gimmick in

681
00:41:48,328 --> 00:41:51,920
South Africa. They'll take it home and buy it off a shelf from their retailer,

682
00:41:51,992 --> 00:41:55,564
you know, because it was made well. So I think

683
00:41:56,304 --> 00:41:59,564
that variety pinotage has evolved the most from

684
00:42:00,264 --> 00:42:03,984
what you have in your mind to how. Interesting point,

685
00:42:04,024 --> 00:42:07,520
though, you just made it, which is. That's what I remember now. I've

686
00:42:07,552 --> 00:42:11,200
had some more contemporary peanut butters that did not carry that. And,

687
00:42:11,352 --> 00:42:13,952
you know, it was always considered maybe it was a flaw, maybe it was a

688
00:42:13,968 --> 00:42:16,872
soil, maybe who knows what it was? And now I get it based. And I

689
00:42:16,888 --> 00:42:20,336
love the idea that, you know, carbonic maceration was part of this sort of solution,

690
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,032
because I agree with that makes a ton of sense. But look how

691
00:42:24,088 --> 00:42:27,760
slow it's taken. And I don't know anybody that right now

692
00:42:27,832 --> 00:42:31,472
my wine drinking public would say, do you have any peanutage?

693
00:42:31,608 --> 00:42:35,210
Because those years probably created a

694
00:42:35,242 --> 00:42:37,374
resistance to the product.

695
00:42:39,594 --> 00:42:42,322
This might be a sensitive subject, but you brought up the regime, and I want

696
00:42:42,338 --> 00:42:46,162
to bring this up because I had a very interesting african american woman

697
00:42:46,218 --> 00:42:49,458
here. I actually was at the African American Vendors

698
00:42:49,506 --> 00:42:52,978
association tasting two weeks ago in Napa,

699
00:42:53,106 --> 00:42:56,490
tasted about 75 wines, all african American owned.

700
00:42:56,602 --> 00:43:00,138
And she said she went to South Africa and

701
00:43:00,186 --> 00:43:03,710
she had wine with. It was a couple of

702
00:43:03,742 --> 00:43:07,558
sisters. Tiv and sisters. Yes. Yeah. More than two, I

703
00:43:07,566 --> 00:43:10,754
guess. Yeah, more than Mary. And she said

704
00:43:11,094 --> 00:43:14,114
that their number one marketplace was

705
00:43:15,214 --> 00:43:18,074
America and why? In that

706
00:43:18,934 --> 00:43:22,390
she sort of called it racism to a certain extent. But

707
00:43:22,502 --> 00:43:25,894
she came back to America and got into the industry and

708
00:43:25,934 --> 00:43:29,768
created a group and has become an influencer in

709
00:43:29,776 --> 00:43:33,184
the industry. And it's an issue here. I

710
00:43:33,224 --> 00:43:36,968
checked. I can't remember what social event occurred in the early

711
00:43:37,016 --> 00:43:40,560
two thousands that I decided, I'm going to go find an

712
00:43:40,592 --> 00:43:44,376
african american wine to feature in the wine of the month club. I could not

713
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,568
find anybody that was making enough for the club. And I was probably buying, I

714
00:43:47,576 --> 00:43:50,884
don't know, 7800 cases of red at the time a month.

715
00:43:51,664 --> 00:43:55,284
And now there's 200 members of the same organization when there's only five.

716
00:43:55,424 --> 00:43:59,188
Is that an issue in South Africa still? So I think the industry

717
00:43:59,356 --> 00:44:03,144
has evolved quite a bit. We have

718
00:44:03,684 --> 00:44:07,052
one wine that we produce, which is the

719
00:44:07,228 --> 00:44:10,676
Mister de Compostela. M? R.

720
00:44:10,780 --> 00:44:14,292
Stands for Humbe and Rohtz. So my cousin,

721
00:44:14,468 --> 00:44:18,304
when he was a winemaker at El Air

722
00:44:18,844 --> 00:44:22,192
in the late nineties, he had an apprentice in Zakorna M?

723
00:44:22,208 --> 00:44:26,056
Vembe, who was one of the first black african qualified

724
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,404
winemakers. And they built up a friendship there

725
00:44:30,264 --> 00:44:33,904
that transcends now three decades

726
00:44:33,944 --> 00:44:37,560
already. And in early 2000, through that friendship,

727
00:44:37,712 --> 00:44:41,544
they decided to build a wine

728
00:44:41,584 --> 00:44:44,944
together, which was called the Compostala from

729
00:44:45,104 --> 00:44:48,840
Raj. And this year we are

730
00:44:48,872 --> 00:44:52,474
releasing the 2020 to at the end of the year.

731
00:44:52,514 --> 00:44:55,534
And that was one of the first south african

732
00:44:55,914 --> 00:44:59,170
partnerships where it was purely because of friendship. Two

733
00:44:59,202 --> 00:45:02,894
winemakers coming together and building a wine that is

734
00:45:04,074 --> 00:45:07,882
very unique and quality focused. And, you

735
00:45:07,898 --> 00:45:11,290
know, that's something very special for us. That wine

736
00:45:11,402 --> 00:45:15,082
is, in terms of its regard, is probably one of the highest

737
00:45:15,138 --> 00:45:18,952
rated. Really? Wow. South african wines in the

738
00:45:18,968 --> 00:45:22,816
border classification each year stands head

739
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,640
and shoulders above its peers. And we're very proud to be

740
00:45:26,672 --> 00:45:29,644
part of that. And that was long before

741
00:45:30,584 --> 00:45:32,444
this conversation really started.

742
00:45:35,784 --> 00:45:39,164
We went through something and we are very

743
00:45:40,064 --> 00:45:43,692
glad at the evolution that is currently happening. There's.

744
00:45:43,828 --> 00:45:47,668
It's fabulous. And I spent a lot of

745
00:45:47,676 --> 00:45:51,104
time with that. And women and wine in America, percentages

746
00:45:52,084 --> 00:45:55,684
more winemakers than there used to be, 25% probably. Now, coming out of school,

747
00:45:55,804 --> 00:45:59,212
I actually had an intern here, and her job was to

748
00:45:59,308 --> 00:46:03,148
write my talking points for when I had women winemakers in the show, and

749
00:46:03,156 --> 00:46:06,652
I wanted her to watch. And now she's at Cornell, at theology school, because she

750
00:46:06,668 --> 00:46:10,350
got so inspired by these conversations. Very proud of that.

751
00:46:10,542 --> 00:46:14,234
But, you know, it's an intimidating subject

752
00:46:14,774 --> 00:46:18,074
for generally, for people, it's intimidating. And so

753
00:46:18,734 --> 00:46:20,834
I don't think the industry set out to be

754
00:46:21,614 --> 00:46:25,310
exclusive, but because of the. Because of the nature. And there was an

755
00:46:25,342 --> 00:46:27,234
ad today. Somebody posted an ad today.

756
00:46:28,854 --> 00:46:32,670
Despite our second time around, we're actually almost out of time. But

757
00:46:32,702 --> 00:46:36,530
somebody wrote, posted an article, not

758
00:46:36,562 --> 00:46:40,374
article, and two advertisements that were in an older trade mag,

759
00:46:40,714 --> 00:46:43,898
let's say from the seventies. One was about Inglenook

760
00:46:43,946 --> 00:46:47,530
wines, and they said, if you want to learn about wine, you should

761
00:46:47,562 --> 00:46:50,706
understand, this is the ad now, you should understand the language of wine. And they

762
00:46:50,730 --> 00:46:54,186
had some basic descriptors that would

763
00:46:54,210 --> 00:46:57,850
use. And then the other ad that he posted was about

764
00:46:57,882 --> 00:47:01,630
dry sack sherry, and it was something a man's drink.

765
00:47:01,802 --> 00:47:05,526
And he goes, there's a couple reasons why these two art ads would

766
00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:09,382
never run again. And I can understand the man's drink thing. You can still

767
00:47:09,438 --> 00:47:12,646
run it. People just get offended by it. But the other one, I didn't, I

768
00:47:12,670 --> 00:47:16,358
didn't quite. I haven't grasped this concept yet. And there's this whole movement

769
00:47:16,406 --> 00:47:20,246
to change the language of wine. Have you

770
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:24,078
witnessed any of this or talked about it or. I think it's probably one of

771
00:47:24,086 --> 00:47:27,502
the big things with wine

772
00:47:27,518 --> 00:47:29,814
is, you know, we

773
00:47:30,874 --> 00:47:34,562
young, I'm relatively young, we want to break down

774
00:47:34,618 --> 00:47:38,378
these barriers that stop people from

775
00:47:38,466 --> 00:47:42,074
engaging with wine. We want people to drink wine like they

776
00:47:42,114 --> 00:47:45,134
enjoy drinking it, you know, and not have this

777
00:47:45,594 --> 00:47:48,770
heavily over complicated ways of

778
00:47:48,882 --> 00:47:51,826
describing it and excluding people. We want

779
00:47:51,930 --> 00:47:55,538
inclusivity. And, you know, I'm glad that that ad won't run

780
00:47:55,626 --> 00:47:59,250
again, you know, describing how you must talk about wine.

781
00:47:59,282 --> 00:48:03,074
Right. Because each person's opinion and perspective

782
00:48:03,114 --> 00:48:06,954
is formed by his past and what he was exposed

783
00:48:06,994 --> 00:48:10,826
to. And what I have been exposed to in my life and yours is

784
00:48:10,850 --> 00:48:14,474
very different. That's right. So how must we now be forced

785
00:48:14,554 --> 00:48:17,854
to describe how we centrally

786
00:48:18,994 --> 00:48:22,746
smell and taste something? How is that going to be exactly the

787
00:48:22,770 --> 00:48:25,882
same? And because you say it in one way, it's right, and I say it

788
00:48:25,898 --> 00:48:29,180
in another way, it's wrong. And that, for me, has never made

789
00:48:29,212 --> 00:48:32,780
sense. So we must embrace

790
00:48:32,852 --> 00:48:36,492
this opportunity of allowing people to just enjoy

791
00:48:36,548 --> 00:48:40,180
wine for what it is, not discourage them, because they

792
00:48:40,212 --> 00:48:43,924
don't understand it all, but try and explain it and include

793
00:48:44,044 --> 00:48:47,668
and expose more. And I think trying

794
00:48:47,716 --> 00:48:51,492
wine from South Africa is maybe a very good way to start doing that.

795
00:48:51,548 --> 00:48:54,684
That's what we're going to end every sentence with. Try wine from South Africa.

796
00:48:55,784 --> 00:48:59,536
A friend of mine made a very good, for me, for myself, a

797
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,880
very good comparison. Which ties into the

798
00:49:02,912 --> 00:49:06,720
question is, he said, in terms of wine, wine needs

799
00:49:06,752 --> 00:49:10,360
to find its live golf. If you take the PGA Tour and now the live

800
00:49:10,392 --> 00:49:14,136
golf, wine needs to find its live golf because forever it's

801
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,912
been done like this and there's no other way of doing it. And now you've

802
00:49:17,928 --> 00:49:21,414
got this live golf thing that comes along that's more inclusive, more open to everyone.

803
00:49:21,534 --> 00:49:24,766
People are enjoying it and there's record crowds now. So I think wine needs to

804
00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:28,294
sort of do that. That's a pretty interesting analogy. Yeah. So I just think it's.

805
00:49:28,374 --> 00:49:31,678
Which is more fun, which is more inclusive, which doesn't

806
00:49:31,846 --> 00:49:35,662
box people up. You know, people can experience how they want to experience it and

807
00:49:35,678 --> 00:49:38,910
not be told how to experience it. And I think that's a. That's what wine,

808
00:49:38,942 --> 00:49:42,654
the wine industry needs to do, is you need to include people and let them

809
00:49:42,694 --> 00:49:46,536
experience something the way they want to. You think Gary player would go

810
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,320
after that? Was he south african? He was black Knight. But

811
00:49:50,352 --> 00:49:53,404
you know, we love talking about

812
00:49:54,264 --> 00:49:57,968
the soil. And these guys here,

813
00:49:58,096 --> 00:50:01,488
they want to. They want to. They want to live it up. And I think,

814
00:50:01,576 --> 00:50:05,376
you know, where our sales are going to come from in the

815
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,904
future is probably from the younger wine drinking community

816
00:50:08,984 --> 00:50:12,192
who's prepared to try things different. And we need to spice it up. Like he

817
00:50:12,208 --> 00:50:15,802
said. Well, look, you've probably done this before too, and we're gonna wrap it up.

818
00:50:15,818 --> 00:50:19,082
But I can't tell you how many times I've run into just. There was an

819
00:50:19,098 --> 00:50:22,850
email string going around today with my college friends and one guy

820
00:50:22,882 --> 00:50:26,570
chimed in and this guy, I mean, he's one of those guys, he'll

821
00:50:26,602 --> 00:50:30,154
tell you all about the Lafitte he drinks and all the classified growth

822
00:50:30,194 --> 00:50:33,426
Bordeaux and the grand coup Burgundy's. That's all he talks about. It bores the hell

823
00:50:33,450 --> 00:50:37,162
out of me. And I've done this for 35 years. So I

824
00:50:37,258 --> 00:50:40,514
want to. I want people to experience that glass of wine too.

825
00:50:41,494 --> 00:50:45,318
I just have a problem with this concept of innovation. We need

826
00:50:45,326 --> 00:50:48,630
to be more. What innovation? This is the same damn product. It was

827
00:50:48,702 --> 00:50:52,342
6000 years ago. But maybe just the conversation around the product

828
00:50:52,518 --> 00:50:56,102
and that thing that we spoke about, including people.

829
00:50:56,198 --> 00:50:59,910
Yeah, well, almost every conversation, probably as

830
00:50:59,942 --> 00:51:03,654
you, as I have. And they're non

831
00:51:03,694 --> 00:51:06,914
threatening conversations like, I'll go to dinner tonight

832
00:51:07,354 --> 00:51:11,090
and it will come back to wine. And I'd be very careful about how

833
00:51:11,122 --> 00:51:13,874
I present myself. So I'm not, you know, talking about all the stuff that I

834
00:51:13,874 --> 00:51:17,426
don't want to hear, but it always opens up to

835
00:51:17,450 --> 00:51:20,810
wine. It always talks about wine and. And it's

836
00:51:20,842 --> 00:51:24,402
people asking questions. Exactly. You know, and I'm very specific about the

837
00:51:24,418 --> 00:51:27,658
answers. Not to be boorish and all that stuff and talk about the soil and

838
00:51:27,666 --> 00:51:31,106
the taproots, but it's a subject that people want to

839
00:51:31,130 --> 00:51:34,892
know. They do have interests and then there's. I have friends. They

840
00:51:34,908 --> 00:51:38,516
buy the same wine from me every month, and they just know what they

841
00:51:38,540 --> 00:51:41,796
like, and they're not interested in knowing more. And I think a lot has to

842
00:51:41,820 --> 00:51:45,644
do with that. Are you an inquisitive person that cares

843
00:51:45,684 --> 00:51:49,452
about history? I love history. I read all kinds

844
00:51:49,468 --> 00:51:53,184
of stuff about history or going to France. I'm reading about Josephine Baker.

845
00:51:54,084 --> 00:51:57,064
I like that. But not everybody's like that. Exactly.

846
00:51:57,924 --> 00:52:01,684
Gavin's like that. He loves these reasons. But you always know.

847
00:52:01,724 --> 00:52:05,196
This is the part that fascinates me about wine, is that when that person

848
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:08,972
has that wine, that really triggers something. And

849
00:52:08,988 --> 00:52:12,828
it's not a store bought, you know, apothec

850
00:52:12,876 --> 00:52:15,948
red or Josh. Those do not stimulate thought

851
00:52:15,996 --> 00:52:19,812
processes, but they'll have that one burgundy, or that south african old as dirt,

852
00:52:19,828 --> 00:52:22,264
or they'll have something that they'll go, oh, my. God,

853
00:52:23,484 --> 00:52:27,156
that'd be amazing. I think I've always. My dad's

854
00:52:27,180 --> 00:52:30,344
always said to me, just something he's taught me over the years, is

855
00:52:30,834 --> 00:52:34,570
wine. Wine is very different and unique to any

856
00:52:34,602 --> 00:52:38,202
other alcohol beverage is the fact that wine is. Wine is a

857
00:52:38,218 --> 00:52:41,850
lifestyle, if I can say to you like that, or for us in our

858
00:52:41,882 --> 00:52:45,706
family, wine is a lifestyle. Wine's always been there. We talk about wine. We

859
00:52:45,730 --> 00:52:49,570
enjoy wine. So I think the way you live out

860
00:52:49,602 --> 00:52:53,450
your wine experiences is you can speak about the soil to people who love

861
00:52:53,482 --> 00:52:55,938
to hear about the soil, or you don't have to speak about it all. You

862
00:52:55,946 --> 00:52:58,650
just see how nice it is and you enjoy it. So I think it's so

863
00:52:58,682 --> 00:53:02,364
diverse as well, in, like I said, coming back to my.

864
00:53:02,484 --> 00:53:06,220
My comparison, you just need to stop worrying about how

865
00:53:06,252 --> 00:53:09,916
other people want to enjoy their wine. Just enjoy the way you want

866
00:53:09,940 --> 00:53:13,212
to. And there you go. And one more thing about the

867
00:53:13,228 --> 00:53:16,852
inclusivity. I think South Africa is definitely making forward steps, I

868
00:53:16,868 --> 00:53:20,348
think, especially in terms of women in the industry. I think it's a

869
00:53:20,436 --> 00:53:23,972
massive growth in South Africa. So I think definitely we on the right track in

870
00:53:23,988 --> 00:53:27,024
terms of. In terms of that. And as well,

871
00:53:27,634 --> 00:53:31,402
we are the rainbow nation. And I think since 94, as

872
00:53:31,418 --> 00:53:35,194
we said, I think South Africa has been making fantastic strides. In that

873
00:53:35,314 --> 00:53:39,146
sense, I think it's onwards and upwards. Well, it's great to

874
00:53:39,170 --> 00:53:42,306
have you guys here to hear about it. We're at 53 minutes already, which is

875
00:53:42,330 --> 00:53:46,134
amazing. Very insightful and

876
00:53:46,434 --> 00:53:49,858
thoughtful conversation. I really appreciate you being. I hope it goes well the rest of

877
00:53:49,866 --> 00:53:53,426
the trip. Thank you. Because you do exactly what you came to do, which

878
00:53:53,450 --> 00:53:56,770
is teach people you know what's going on. In the southern

879
00:53:56,802 --> 00:54:00,594
hemisphere. When it comes to tonight, I'll talk and he'll fill up the trolleys.

880
00:54:00,634 --> 00:54:04,466
Yes. And, Paul, if our whole trip we

881
00:54:04,490 --> 00:54:07,658
only got you to come to Africa, that's a win for us. Hopefully, we'll see.

882
00:54:07,706 --> 00:54:11,370
I desperately, when I talked to May Eliane, I was trying to get down

883
00:54:11,402 --> 00:54:14,890
there like this first quarter. I have to go see

884
00:54:14,922 --> 00:54:18,762
her. And so that will happen for sure. Chipping

885
00:54:18,778 --> 00:54:22,024
a putz away from us. Chip in a putt. That's it.

886
00:54:22,484 --> 00:54:25,892
Or a PGA. Whatever. Whatever floats the

887
00:54:25,908 --> 00:54:29,264
boat. Just go for the green. And one. No layoffs.

888
00:54:30,684 --> 00:54:32,624
Cheers, you guys. Good luck. Thank you so much.

889
00:54:41,724 --> 00:54:45,100
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to

890
00:54:45,132 --> 00:54:48,270
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

891
00:54:48,422 --> 00:54:51,774
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.