Sometimes The Solution Is Looking You Right In The Face. Moshe Weizman Saw The Solution.

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Wine is something that you like to talk about with others. You tend to trust

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others with their recommendations on wines. You obviously, most of the time, drink

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it with people. As long as the e commerce experience doesn't

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leave you alone with the wine, it may help, but it will

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help more if you make the consumer

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feel that he's not alone and that there are others, even if he doesn't know

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them, but others that he is virtually connected to them. The purchase

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of that wine and that wine and that wine. Sit back and

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grab a glass. Wine Talks with Paul

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K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks

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with Paul K. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California,

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about to have a conversation with Moshe. You can say Moshe or Moshe.

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Moshe is the Hebrew version. If you want to use the biblical version

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that it's Moses. Ah, Moses. But

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Mo. Mo.

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Yes. Moisen from Whining Introductions. In just a moment,

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have a listen to a podcast I did with Zach Arman. It's also available on

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YouTube. He is spearheading distributor

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program for Armenian wines and bringing some of the best that are made

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there. It's very interesting to listen to his conversation about

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bringing not only wine from a region of the world that's not

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known, but grapes that aren't known as well. And give us a review. If you

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have a good review to give us, go ahead and do that. If not so

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good, then let's just leave it alone for now. That's how our egos here at

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the podcast world get going. But now, while we're here, here, have a conversation

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with Moses Wiseman from Whining. Welcome to the show. Thank you.

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Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. You know, I, I had to

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say something funny because whining, and you spell it W I, N

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E, I N G, as in, as you said,

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complaining, which there can be a lot of complaining in our industry. That's

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probably. I've been hearing that quite a lot. Yeah. One day I

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was playing golf with, with Buddy Hackman, the famed,

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you know, comedian from the 70s, the 60s and 70s,

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and he saw my badge which said Wine of the Month Club, and he goes,

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I have a Wine of the Month. I want to go to Miami.

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I go, well, that's, you know, I feel very honored to have been

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joked about by such a famous guy. But anyway, not why we're here.

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I, I saw your LinkedIn page and I thought, you know, this is

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interesting because digital marketing in our world is,

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is obviously, you know, preeminent for anybody. It's what it is

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now. And it has been for a little while and you create a

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platform. This, I didn't catch this for wineries or direct to

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consumer companies or what, what's the platform, who's it, who uses

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it? All of the above. It's basically a tool for whoever

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sells wine. And although the main focus,

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at least in terms of the traction we're seeing is from wineries,

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we do have retailers

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in countries where it's legally

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possible, even importers using

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us. And we are also starting to see

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B2B use cases where

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importers are selling to either distributors

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or distributors or wineries

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or importers selling to restaurants and

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retailers. The, the, the, the concept of collaborative selling, which is what

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we do, I'm sure we'll talk about it applies to any

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circumstance where you have an audience, a high intent

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to buy and a good deal offered to that audience. That's the triangle that

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we address and it's applicable in many

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levels of the market. That's an interesting platform.

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And we're at the, maybe not delve into all the details for the

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listeners, but the idea that you are crossing

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from, you know, business to consumer, from

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business to business, from import to distributors. And you said something interesting, which is

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in the countries where it's legal, which is a huge,

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you know, hurdle because just in America alone there are 50 different

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rules of doing this. What does that mean when it's legal? What, where

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do you having those issues?

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In Europe and in Israel,

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which is where we've had up until now all of our use cases, we're just

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getting our first onboarded US customers,

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We importing wine and then selling

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DTC is doable. I mean it's allowed.

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You do not need a specific license to import, another

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one to distribute and another one to be a

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retailer. So we do have small importers, boutique

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importers that do need to manage

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end customers and with no one in the middle,

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they're interested obviously to sell to wholesalers, but they're also

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interested in a direct sell to

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end consumers. And again a collaborative selling

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functionality is something that solves them a lot of digital

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problem for, but also in some

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cases cash flow problems. Because with the

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collaborative aspect for importers, we're sometimes

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enabling importers to pre sell stock that

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they didn't even buy from, from

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wineries and then they import it, etc.

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So that's interesting that when people come to you, are they looking, are

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they retailers primarily or looking or

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wineries or distributors or wholesalers depending on the country and what the

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legal, you know, rules are for selling direct to

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a consumer at that level but are these

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companies looking for a contemporary solution

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to, you know, we all know wine sales are down a little bit right

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now worldwide. But one of the things that

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Covid taught a lot of distributors was that if you go

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dtc, you can shave off, you know, you can add some margin to your

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product because you don't have to. You can skip, you know, one hand in the

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pot. But that was easier said than done for most

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because let's face it, they're different businesses all

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entirely. Is this digitally bridging that gap?

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So we try to. Although I have to say that most of the demand

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has come from wineries. Putting the the US

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context, for now, the demand has mostly come

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from wineries. Because of this.

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Again, I'm speaking with all modesty. I'm new to this part of the

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world, but all I've been hearing is people know that they're going,

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they're about to hit some kind of an iceberg with

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club members and club signups going down and the

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fact that the ones who nurtured the club

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mentality, baby

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boomers. No, no disrespect, I think you're a bit

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older than I am, but I'm not that young. But those. I am a baby

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boomer. Yeah. So these people are either drinking

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less or stopping to drink or

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sadly leaving us. And now you need to address a

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new up and coming type of wine consumer. If

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that Gen Z person is even a wine

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consumer and you simply can't sell to him

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or her in the same way. And thinking that

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you could bank on your club signups

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and club management and ask long

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time commitments for large quantities from a

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totally different type of audience is literally, however you

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want to call it hitting an iceberg, banging your head against the

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wall. So we're looked at as

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some, as a tool that sells

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differently. If I may,

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maybe a couple of words about

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it. So our tool is a tool that on one

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hand is, is linking two needs from opposite sides of

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the market. It's linking the need of a winery

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to sell cases and the

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need of buyers, not necessarily to buy

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per case. What do I mean? A lot of people don't know

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it or afraid to admit it, but the official statistics for wine

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buyers globally, not only in the US globally, is that between

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80 to 85% of wine buyers are not case

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buyers. They buy somewhere between one to five

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bottles, meaning all of the case offerings as

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they are today are simply irrelevant

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to most of the markets. So you need to try and sell to

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them separately. And our tool enables the seller to take

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his case offerings, whether it's one, 10 or

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15 offerings on their different wines. And instead of

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limiting the e commerce,

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E commerce part to be individual, meaning only one person

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can buy a case, we're turning that e commerce

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functionality to a collaborative one and basically

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enabling many people to collaborate and reach those case

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levels together.

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And the case level doesn't need to be a case

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level. Wineries can offer 5, 10, 15% discounts

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even on 2 cases or 3 cases. But the

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idea is for people to join in and buy them together instead of

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letting them try to, to buy them on their own.

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I see. That's interesting. I've written two

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from scratch now. One was very old 1993, when we

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wrote the subscription model of what, of what we did here at the Wine

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of the Month club. And then I was writing a system. We just finished getting

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ready to populate it with inventory before I sold, which I thought was going

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to be probably the leading DTC customer facing

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piece of software available in the marketplace. Never launched

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it, but it was quite robust. And the robustness came from,

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you know, 35 years of hearing what the customers had to say. And

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then the reason I brought that up was one of the

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platforms, one of the movements toward

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consumer convenience was the fact you could

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fill a case with various wines or you could.

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And I'm not sure that took hold. I'm not, not saying I support this necessarily,

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but I'm saying that it was a certainly prevalent,

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prevalent thought process in the industry. And that was, well,

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what if we hang on to that five bottles that they put in their shopping

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cart, sell them the five bottles and then we'll add five

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later and then as soon as they get to a case, we'll ship it because

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of the economies of scale with, with shipping costs. Cool. But I'm

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not sure that that was necessarily a real feature that needed to be exploited. Have

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you seen that? Again, I think that no matter how

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you play, we're getting into

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details of, you know, digital and e commerce stuff. But I think

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that no matter how you play with a person's e commerce experience,

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as long as he's still alone

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in that experience, he will buy more.

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Sorry, he will buy less. Yes. And it's even

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more specific into wine because wine is

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something. And by the way, in parity we've done this

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with spirits.

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We're constantly getting approaches to do it with olive oil,

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coffee beans and even cheese. My co founder is

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Dutch, so you know, selling

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a tire of Parmesan is very similar to selling a

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case of wine. But anyway, back to my example, wine is

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something that you, that you like to talk about

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with others. You tend to trust others with their

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recommendations on wines. You obviously, most of the time, drink it with

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people. So we claim that, I mean,

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claim that as long as the E commerce experience

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doesn't leave you alone with the wine, which is, I think, still

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what you were referring to, it may help, but it

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will help more if you make the

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consumer feel that he's not alone and that there are others,

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even if he doesn't know them, but others that he is virtually connected

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to them in the purchase of that wine and that wine and that

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wine. And that's what our statistics, statistics show.

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We, we've done this over 85

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times now in France, Italy, Israel, where

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I'm from, I'm now starting up in the US and

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putting aside the turnover part, which is higher,

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what's been the most interesting is the conversion

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rate statistic, meaning the, the percentage between

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the people who clicked and entered the platform to the ones who actually

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bought. Mm. So in standard E commerce

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today, if you have a website and you have somewhere between 2 to

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3% of a conversion rate, you're probably doing something

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right. That's right. So ours is 7 to 11.

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Wow, that's very high. Okay. And it's, it's not rocket

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science. We take a group of people, we connect to

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them virtually, we give them a common goal, a limited

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amount of time and a good deal. Some kind of an incentive,

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a compelling event, the psychology

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of E commerce will take over. It's very natural and very human.

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That's an interesting observation because

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you're right. We were one of the month club and I think we had a

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very loyal base and we had been around for so long, we were at three

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and a half, almost 4% conversion rate. And we were very happy with that. And

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I don't think people realize, you know, that's very. People come to a

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website, only three of them are going to buy. I think,

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I think if you start out in the E commerce world and you, let's say

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you're a young person, you, you're into Instagram and Facebook and you, you

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think that I'll probably get 15 of the people to buy, but they don't, you

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know, it's, it's not real. That's not real. But 7 to 11 is quite

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high. How did you see this need then? You know, where did you

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see this need from? As a buyer yourself or as a distributor or what?

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Yeah. So a bit of history. So

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up until this project started, about a Year and a

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half ago, I was a salesperson for

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18, 19 years, selling enterprise software to

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the financial market, mostly to banks, stock

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exchanges. But I'm also an only

241
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child to parents who had one of

242
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this is the 70s and 80s, one of Tel Aviv's first high cuisine

243
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restaurants. Really? Wow. So I was all of

244
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the time around white tablecloths. Wine was always

245
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there. My parents at home were drinking wine in

246
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coffee mugs. It was part of me. So I enjoyed

247
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it a lot. I did WSET levels 2 and

248
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3, got my sommelier certification from the court of Master

249
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Sommelier. And I'm a heavy wine drinker, hence

250
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also a heavy wine buyer. However, over

251
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time, because I wasn't selling, I was working for Israeli companies, but I

252
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wasn't selling in Israel. I was always traveling, mostly in Europe.

253
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Touch wood. I'm. I'm an expert in

254
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bottle packaging in suitcases. I

255
00:15:42,636 --> 00:15:45,040
have a very high success rate

256
00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:49,988
anyway. So over the years, I literally never bought

257
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wine wines in. In Israel because I was very

258
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sensitive to value for money, not because I wanted cheap

259
00:15:57,638 --> 00:16:01,382
wines. Value for money is not cheap. It's just I saw the prices of

260
00:16:01,406 --> 00:16:05,062
a good Bordeaux in France, and then I came home and saw the

261
00:16:05,086 --> 00:16:08,582
same wine imported. It was double, sometimes even triple the

262
00:16:08,606 --> 00:16:12,390
price. So I kept buying as I was traveling and

263
00:16:12,430 --> 00:16:15,766
filled my wine fridge. Then Covid

264
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happened and it was rough for me. I

265
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mean, obviously we were all drinking more, but I was

266
00:16:23,138 --> 00:16:26,762
stuck because I couldn't buy, you know, in. In

267
00:16:26,786 --> 00:16:30,506
the prices that I was used to buying. And,

268
00:16:30,578 --> 00:16:33,706
you know, I. But we couldn't travel. So

269
00:16:33,858 --> 00:16:37,450
at. I don't even remember how.

270
00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:40,430
But one of Israel's leading retailers

271
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had something that he did twice a year called

272
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grand, say, which is two occasions where

273
00:16:51,022 --> 00:16:54,742
everything is sold only by the case, either

274
00:16:54,806 --> 00:16:58,630
six or 12 bottles, because European cases are six. But

275
00:16:58,670 --> 00:17:02,358
he also offered 12 bottles and there were good

276
00:17:02,414 --> 00:17:06,070
discounts for it only if you buy a case. So I went

277
00:17:06,110 --> 00:17:09,478
over. It was this big warehouse, everybody with their masks, lots of

278
00:17:09,534 --> 00:17:12,730
people. And then I'm not a case buyer.

279
00:17:14,179 --> 00:17:17,995
I drink a lot, but I don't buy cases. And

280
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as I was there, I saw the great deals and I started calling up people,

281
00:17:21,875 --> 00:17:25,707
my friends and texting. And then when I gathered enough

282
00:17:25,763 --> 00:17:29,371
people to buy this, I don't know, case of Rioja or case of

283
00:17:29,475 --> 00:17:33,291
Chateauneuf du Pape, I needed to first of all get their

284
00:17:33,315 --> 00:17:36,731
approval, then take the wine, pay for it, take it home,

285
00:17:36,915 --> 00:17:40,372
and then have it, you know, they needed to pick it up. Quite an

286
00:17:40,396 --> 00:17:44,228
operation. And while I was doing it at

287
00:17:44,284 --> 00:17:48,052
that warehouse, I literally saw almost all of

288
00:17:48,076 --> 00:17:51,460
the people and there were tens of people there doing exactly the

289
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,316
same, meaning manually taking case

290
00:17:55,388 --> 00:17:58,852
deals and turning them into like a collaborative

291
00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:02,644
purchase, like with, you know, pencils.

292
00:18:02,692 --> 00:18:05,930
And it was like, it felt like a war room.

293
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:10,078
And I said, okay, there's something here. Let's turn

294
00:18:10,134 --> 00:18:12,890
this war room into something digital.

295
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:17,822
And then after studying and reading

296
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and also appreciating this

297
00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:25,150
amazing opportunity that I suddenly have to link one of my

298
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:27,530
passions to my professional experience.

299
00:18:29,030 --> 00:18:32,750
You know, we read a lot, we investigated a lot. And then I saw

300
00:18:32,790 --> 00:18:36,402
that a lot of the initiatives

301
00:18:36,466 --> 00:18:39,986
or ventures that try to take group

302
00:18:40,058 --> 00:18:43,810
buying and alcohol and link them right from the end

303
00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:47,510
user side, meaning being an open marketplace,

304
00:18:48,170 --> 00:18:51,490
something that you need to nurture, get more users,

305
00:18:51,570 --> 00:18:54,590
maintain users, get.

306
00:18:55,130 --> 00:18:58,834
It's a lot. It's a big headache. And I felt that, at

307
00:18:58,842 --> 00:19:02,628
least in the example that I saw, those formats also

308
00:19:02,764 --> 00:19:06,500
diminished to some extent the brands that they were

309
00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:10,100
selling. Because here was a website or a group telling the

310
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:13,732
winery, hey, we're 3,000 people, give us the lowest

311
00:19:13,796 --> 00:19:16,640
price you can on the wine. And my

312
00:19:16,940 --> 00:19:20,560
emotional sommelier part didn't like that.

313
00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:24,484
So we literally did 180%

314
00:19:24,652 --> 00:19:25,480
degrees.

315
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:33,084
Yes. And going and giving this tool,

316
00:19:33,252 --> 00:19:36,652
but giving it to the seller so the seller can

317
00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:40,380
decide what does he sell, when, for

318
00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:44,236
how long, what are the minimum amounts he wants to put, and

319
00:19:44,308 --> 00:19:47,820
possibly offer a discount or offer a limited edition to

320
00:19:47,860 --> 00:19:51,644
something. What's the stock availability and what is

321
00:19:51,652 --> 00:19:55,438
the cost? So are you taking over then? Let's

322
00:19:55,454 --> 00:19:59,050
say you come, you're in America. You said you just started here and you've got.

323
00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:02,450
Obviously the myriad of laws here is probably

324
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:08,062
daunting compared to the rest of the world, but definitely, if I'm a

325
00:20:08,086 --> 00:20:11,806
winery and I come to whining, I say, look, I have an e commerce

326
00:20:11,838 --> 00:20:15,310
site. And let me back up to Covid. Like you said, it's very important part

327
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:19,130
of the, of the transformation of the wine industry. Because

328
00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:23,490
I was headed to Napa just before it was February

329
00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:27,314
and stopped. And I had a conversation

330
00:20:27,362 --> 00:20:31,090
with a wine writer at the Napa Valley Register. And she was

331
00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:34,658
saying, look, what are we going to do? These wineries, you know, they don't

332
00:20:34,674 --> 00:20:38,178
have. Some of them don't have E commerce robust enough

333
00:20:38,314 --> 00:20:42,162
to handle a shutdown of their tasting room and

334
00:20:42,266 --> 00:20:46,046
provide a service to their customers. They're farmers, they don't understand this.

335
00:20:46,218 --> 00:20:49,942
And so when you take this idea to the street,

336
00:20:50,126 --> 00:20:53,942
are you supplanting their current e

337
00:20:53,966 --> 00:20:57,046
commerce site with yours? No, that's part

338
00:20:57,198 --> 00:21:00,450
another kind of advantage that we have.

339
00:21:01,790 --> 00:21:05,430
As I said, because we're not an open platform

340
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:09,110
that's like live there all of the time where you constantly see

341
00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:12,050
deals when if you go to whining.net,

342
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,168
it's what we do, but you won't see any deals there. I see. Right.

343
00:21:17,304 --> 00:21:21,072
So we're not asking the wineries

344
00:21:21,136 --> 00:21:24,832
to move their e commerce activity to us. We are

345
00:21:24,856 --> 00:21:27,660
a tool, meaning whenever they want to use us.

346
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,248
And we know that it's not all of the time,

347
00:21:31,384 --> 00:21:34,832
it's sometimes when, as I said, remember the

348
00:21:34,856 --> 00:21:38,468
triangle I mentioned in the beginning? When they know they have a. A

349
00:21:38,524 --> 00:21:41,160
digital or physical gathering of an audience

350
00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:45,636
with a high intent and a good deal that they want to offer to them.

351
00:21:45,788 --> 00:21:49,620
So our tool, you don't need to install it, you don't need to

352
00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:53,396
integrate it with anything you do a very easy

353
00:21:53,428 --> 00:21:57,220
onboarding process which takes

354
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,612
minutes to set up the deal that you want to do. And then you get

355
00:22:00,636 --> 00:22:03,652
from us a URL which is your own

356
00:22:03,756 --> 00:22:07,096
dedicated time limited e commerce

357
00:22:07,128 --> 00:22:10,760
webshop, just yours. And if we have many

358
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,620
deals in parallel, each seller will have a different URL.

359
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,900
The challenge that we're facing right now, and we love challenges,

360
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,100
is indeed your

361
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,864
unbelievable and

362
00:22:25,952 --> 00:22:29,672
exhausting and I don't know what

363
00:22:29,696 --> 00:22:32,180
words to say. Keep going.

364
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:35,820
Fulfillment compliance

365
00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:40,228
reality. So since we're a startup and

366
00:22:40,284 --> 00:22:43,480
we need to tackle challenge by challenge

367
00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:48,260
right now we're first trying to prove that

368
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:52,148
the collaborative selling thing brings value

369
00:22:52,204 --> 00:22:55,860
to the wineries. In trying to prove that, we

370
00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:59,680
are trying to focus the first use cases

371
00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:03,120
in use cases where the shipping isn't an issue.

372
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,144
That means physical events, that means

373
00:23:07,312 --> 00:23:10,520
winery visitor centers after tastings,

374
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,344
festivals, etc. Those are the things that we're starting

375
00:23:14,392 --> 00:23:17,880
with in parallel. We are

376
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,752
working and this was a big development even for us, and I'm sure that

377
00:23:21,776 --> 00:23:24,660
you're aware of it. This new development with C7

378
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,576
buying the SAS part of wine

379
00:23:27,608 --> 00:23:31,018
directly, for example, makes it very

380
00:23:31,074 --> 00:23:34,150
natural and make it clear for us to have our

381
00:23:34,770 --> 00:23:38,362
app available on the C7 Marketplace. So

382
00:23:38,386 --> 00:23:41,626
that's something we've already started and until

383
00:23:41,698 --> 00:23:45,290
then we're working on integrations with

384
00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:48,698
other fulfillment partners to help

385
00:23:48,754 --> 00:23:52,602
us bridge the gap once the

386
00:23:52,626 --> 00:23:56,174
use cases step out of the tasting

387
00:23:56,222 --> 00:23:59,902
room into something that is digital and

388
00:23:59,926 --> 00:24:03,630
on social media so that the platform could be able to

389
00:24:03,670 --> 00:24:06,910
charge, invoice and conduct the

390
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:10,174
fulfillment. It's complicated, but it's

391
00:24:10,222 --> 00:24:13,870
definitely not impossible. And we are already a few

392
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:17,790
steps into that process. And I

393
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:21,050
really hope that somewhere between a month to two from now

394
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:24,550
we will have all of that fulfillment support,

395
00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:28,842
leveraging partners to do that. The

396
00:24:28,866 --> 00:24:32,378
reason there's consolidation on the digital side of

397
00:24:32,514 --> 00:24:35,834
wine fulfillment, like you said, Commerce 7 and Wine

398
00:24:35,882 --> 00:24:39,562
Direct, it's happening also in the distributor world. The

399
00:24:39,586 --> 00:24:43,082
importers there, there's less of them now because they're being

400
00:24:43,106 --> 00:24:46,682
gobbled up. And a lot has to do with the sales volume of

401
00:24:46,706 --> 00:24:50,522
wine in general. A lot has to do with logistics issues that you

402
00:24:50,546 --> 00:24:54,372
just mentioned. But you're, this concept that you're talking about

403
00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:58,200
seems to be giving the little guy a chance

404
00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:02,324
to get his, his or her wares on the street

405
00:25:02,492 --> 00:25:06,292
in some kind of volume and, and circumvent the

406
00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:10,020
distributor network, possibly, you know,

407
00:25:10,140 --> 00:25:13,828
save some margins for themselves because we, this is the main

408
00:25:13,884 --> 00:25:17,492
issue and it kind of flies in the face of some of the

409
00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:21,302
digital, I'm gonna say digital wars that are going on because there is a lot

410
00:25:21,326 --> 00:25:24,982
of platforms for a lot of different things going on and people are trying to

411
00:25:25,086 --> 00:25:28,518
capture this market, capture the wine trade in

412
00:25:28,574 --> 00:25:32,182
software, but most of it deals with not

413
00:25:32,286 --> 00:25:35,638
premium brands where you're talking about

414
00:25:35,694 --> 00:25:38,890
$200, 300 a bottle, $50 a bottle,

415
00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:43,046
they're talking about the $15 wines that are sourced from Europe

416
00:25:43,118 --> 00:25:46,790
at whatever prices. And so I think this is fascinating because

417
00:25:46,830 --> 00:25:50,402
it really is what, and I'm interested to know the

418
00:25:50,426 --> 00:25:54,242
conversion rate now that you have 7 to 11% is showing you or

419
00:25:54,266 --> 00:25:58,050
telling you that there's a need for people that needed to get

420
00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:01,778
access to a bottle or two of something

421
00:26:01,834 --> 00:26:04,946
interesting that they want to put in their cell, they want to drink, and here's

422
00:26:04,978 --> 00:26:08,322
a way to do it. Paul, I agree, but just to

423
00:26:08,346 --> 00:26:11,970
clarify, the thing is, it's great that you gave the

424
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:15,900
bottle or two example because it's not like we're trying with

425
00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:19,520
this concept to turn those non case buyers

426
00:26:19,940 --> 00:26:23,468
to case buyers, right? Not at all. But we

427
00:26:23,524 --> 00:26:26,940
are trying to turn these one to two

428
00:26:26,980 --> 00:26:30,780
bottle buyers to three, four and five buyers.

429
00:26:30,940 --> 00:26:34,684
And it may sound small numbers, but that's 100% more

430
00:26:34,852 --> 00:26:38,476
if that adds up. So I mean, you're

431
00:26:38,508 --> 00:26:42,150
definitely right, I have to say. And this is, I mean there's a big

432
00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:45,430
disadvantage in being someone that's not from

433
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:49,302
here to try and do this, but I also think there's an

434
00:26:49,326 --> 00:26:53,014
advantage in it because I may, I

435
00:26:53,022 --> 00:26:56,790
don't know if it's because I'm Israeli and that's our mentality

436
00:26:56,870 --> 00:27:00,342
to not know, to keep being persistent and

437
00:27:00,366 --> 00:27:03,090
keep. But I,

438
00:27:04,350 --> 00:27:07,970
I have to say that the feeling I've been getting from the,

439
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:12,410
I've been here for three straight weeks, three times over

440
00:27:13,030 --> 00:27:15,918
the past 10 months. Participated in a few

441
00:27:15,974 --> 00:27:19,678
symposiums. I wouldn't say very

442
00:27:19,734 --> 00:27:23,582
far from being an expert, but I'm sensing the first

443
00:27:23,766 --> 00:27:27,262
feedbacks and the general feeling. And I have to say

444
00:27:27,366 --> 00:27:30,930
that what's frustrating is that I keep hearing

445
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:34,878
a lot of talks about challenges and

446
00:27:34,934 --> 00:27:38,230
complaints. I call it an orgy of complaints

447
00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:41,970
and not practical solutions.

448
00:27:42,130 --> 00:27:45,746
Meaning, okay, there's a problem. We know it's

449
00:27:45,778 --> 00:27:49,266
fulfillment. We know getting people to the winery. We know club

450
00:27:49,338 --> 00:27:53,090
signups, we know club dropouts, we know Gen Z, we know.

451
00:27:53,130 --> 00:27:56,946
We know all of that. Okay, and, and this has come up also

452
00:27:57,018 --> 00:28:00,114
in the way we got introduced, you know, in LinkedIn

453
00:28:00,162 --> 00:28:03,480
discussions, a lot of these general

454
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:08,252
discussions about the issues. But let's talk about concrete

455
00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:12,092
solutions. I'll even give you one example, and I

456
00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:15,756
won't name the person, but like

457
00:28:15,828 --> 00:28:19,500
a whole post. And I guess we're following the same

458
00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:23,240
people. Okay, but a whole post on how to,

459
00:28:23,780 --> 00:28:27,280
to change your club strategy,

460
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,584
your American Winery club strategy. And I'm reading

461
00:28:31,632 --> 00:28:35,456
these, this post, and it's long and it's getting so much traction and lots

462
00:28:35,488 --> 00:28:38,752
of write on, you know,

463
00:28:38,776 --> 00:28:41,740
encouragements. And I was like,

464
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,640
how about you say something like maybe club is

465
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,300
dead? Instead of trying to

466
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,788
see how can the same model work for a new type

467
00:28:54,804 --> 00:28:58,516
of audience. How would you consider changing the model?

468
00:28:58,708 --> 00:29:02,388
It's all lip service. Yes. It's

469
00:29:02,404 --> 00:29:06,148
just, it's just hypothecating. And it's from people that

470
00:29:06,204 --> 00:29:09,892
haven't experienced this, that haven't been through

471
00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:13,540
the ringer, that have not had to switch gears

472
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:17,412
midstream. I've said this before on the show. My last year

473
00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:20,868
in business, I sent 33 million emails. I had to do 300 different

474
00:29:20,924 --> 00:29:24,598
promotions to get the sales volume I would have gotten 10 years earlier

475
00:29:24,654 --> 00:29:28,278
on a million emails. And so until you've done that,

476
00:29:28,414 --> 00:29:32,086
you can hypothecate and talk about all you want, but

477
00:29:32,158 --> 00:29:35,798
you cannot learn anything by talking and getting people to say, yeah, you're right,

478
00:29:35,854 --> 00:29:39,254
because it's just lip service. Your solution is a good one. And I

479
00:29:39,262 --> 00:29:42,790
think all the chatter you, you hear about out there

480
00:29:42,910 --> 00:29:46,566
is not addressing the core problem. Like, in other words, they're saying, oh, Gen Z's

481
00:29:46,598 --> 00:29:49,548
aren't drinking. Well, they are drinking it. And it's been

482
00:29:49,684 --> 00:29:53,180
generations, thousands of them have

483
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:57,020
eventually come to that glass of wine that

484
00:29:57,060 --> 00:30:00,748
expresses an emotion, a feeling, a time of day, a

485
00:30:00,804 --> 00:30:04,620
time of life. And so whether it's Genji's come in their

486
00:30:04,660 --> 00:30:08,396
late 30s or in their early 30s or the millennials come later, earlier. It doesn't

487
00:30:08,428 --> 00:30:12,268
really matter. They will come because that's the product. That's what it's

488
00:30:12,284 --> 00:30:14,970
about. And selling

489
00:30:15,310 --> 00:30:18,822
monolithic wines in the supermarket has its

490
00:30:18,926 --> 00:30:22,210
place in the world because we need people to come to the trade.

491
00:30:22,750 --> 00:30:25,942
But once they experience a good glass of wine and wine from, let's say, one

492
00:30:25,966 --> 00:30:29,718
of your customers who, who has created a brand

493
00:30:29,774 --> 00:30:32,694
that might be a little more expensive and so we can't afford to buy a

494
00:30:32,702 --> 00:30:36,502
case at a time, experiences that wine, they're not going to go

495
00:30:36,526 --> 00:30:40,166
back. And so it's just a matter of time. This is the part that bothers

496
00:30:40,198 --> 00:30:43,934
me. Maybe you can shed some light on it. We are tending

497
00:30:43,982 --> 00:30:47,742
to, with those kinds of posts, argue about metrics that are

498
00:30:47,766 --> 00:30:51,582
irrelevant. I mean, wine is not a metric. Wine is an

499
00:30:51,606 --> 00:30:55,214
emotional product and it takes emotion to buy it and decide

500
00:30:55,262 --> 00:30:58,846
what to buy. And maybe that's what, maybe that's the value. What you're doing,

501
00:30:58,918 --> 00:31:02,334
you're connecting emotions between people on a particular

502
00:31:02,422 --> 00:31:05,886
product. Correct. They're just

503
00:31:05,958 --> 00:31:09,322
expressed digitally. Right. You

504
00:31:09,346 --> 00:31:13,098
know, the point I'm making about the digital thing is that we're

505
00:31:13,114 --> 00:31:16,570
trying to refine your conversion rates a result

506
00:31:16,690 --> 00:31:20,282
of, not because of. In other words, you create this conversion rate because of what

507
00:31:20,306 --> 00:31:23,594
you're doing for the people that are trying to buy. It's not because you're

508
00:31:23,642 --> 00:31:27,434
massaging metrics, trying to figure out how to get 7%. That's not what you're

509
00:31:27,482 --> 00:31:31,258
doing. It's bass ackwards the way people look at this. And so

510
00:31:31,314 --> 00:31:34,908
this is an important feature for the listeners. And for if this, if, if trade

511
00:31:34,964 --> 00:31:38,796
is listening almost invariably the years, I've

512
00:31:38,828 --> 00:31:42,172
hired consultants and I had a lot of them and some, some were

513
00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:45,980
horrible. And, and because they were driving the metric,

514
00:31:46,060 --> 00:31:49,756
just trying to drive the metric, they're in Google Ads or they're in Facebook ads

515
00:31:49,788 --> 00:31:53,500
or they're doing and just massaging things to get the metric to move 10%.

516
00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:57,404
And here's the example. I hired one of the greatest. In the

517
00:31:57,412 --> 00:32:01,092
early days of social networking, I hired one of the greatest guys ever. And

518
00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:04,164
I won't mention his name because he's still very good. But in this case, it

519
00:32:04,172 --> 00:32:07,764
was his first company. And they, they showed

520
00:32:07,812 --> 00:32:11,492
me after I paid them 2500amonth. This is many, many years ago

521
00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:14,948
that they moved Facebook from

522
00:32:15,004 --> 00:32:18,164
the 9th revenue

523
00:32:18,212 --> 00:32:21,620
generator in the back end of my website to the

524
00:32:21,660 --> 00:32:25,412
7th. Now what happens? The consultant says, hey, I

525
00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:29,134
was successful. Look what I did for you. Because we, we massage stuff.

526
00:32:29,182 --> 00:32:32,670
We got it. But that, that equated to like, I think it was

527
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:36,302
$250 in sales volume to go from ninth to

528
00:32:36,326 --> 00:32:39,742
seventh on a monthly basis. It cost me

529
00:32:39,766 --> 00:32:43,470
$2,500. That's not very

530
00:32:43,510 --> 00:32:46,090
Israeli now, is it? No, not at all.

531
00:32:47,910 --> 00:32:50,090
I also have to say that

532
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:53,650
again, as the outsider,

533
00:32:54,790 --> 00:32:58,446
it feels like we spoke

534
00:32:58,478 --> 00:33:02,030
about consultants and I don't mean to bash them, not in any

535
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:04,570
way, no. But, but most of the

536
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:09,470
consultants that I've talked to,

537
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:13,342
as I was trying to, you know, get a sense of what's going on, get

538
00:33:13,366 --> 00:33:17,070
a feel of who's on the ground, I think I talked to maybe 20

539
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:19,770
to 30 people at least.

540
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,872
And there's also this fear of like when you

541
00:33:24,896 --> 00:33:28,584
have your added values and consultants. So there's, there's branding, there's

542
00:33:28,632 --> 00:33:32,424
marketing, and there's the e commerce parts, meaning

543
00:33:32,472 --> 00:33:36,168
the one that's related to conversions, the one that's much

544
00:33:36,224 --> 00:33:39,704
more quantifiable, the one that maybe

545
00:33:39,752 --> 00:33:43,512
consultants are afraid of touching because their possible failure will

546
00:33:43,536 --> 00:33:47,336
be clearer. So I see a lot of consultants mostly focusing

547
00:33:47,368 --> 00:33:50,644
on the branding, social media, marketing side.

548
00:33:50,832 --> 00:33:54,524
And it's, it's interesting that there aren't, or at least I

549
00:33:54,532 --> 00:33:58,172
haven't encountered them, the ones who pride themselves of

550
00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:01,900
being the wine converter or the

551
00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:05,520
one that's not only dealing with social media and branding

552
00:34:06,420 --> 00:34:10,252
and how do you, how should you call your winery differently, but

553
00:34:10,276 --> 00:34:13,400
the ones that are dealing with. Okay, how can we sell more.

554
00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:19,784
Point. I, I was at the Santa Rosa,

555
00:34:19,832 --> 00:34:23,544
what was it, DTC symposium. It was my first time I

556
00:34:23,552 --> 00:34:27,064
was here. I think it was not too long ago. Yeah, yeah,

557
00:34:27,112 --> 00:34:30,820
like March, I think last March. Yeah, a year ago.

558
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,032
And again it was like how to do all

559
00:34:35,056 --> 00:34:37,420
these sessions about how to promote

560
00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:42,216
club registrations and converting people from

561
00:34:42,288 --> 00:34:46,124
winery visits to club registrations

562
00:34:46,172 --> 00:34:49,740
during visits. And like the, the

563
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:53,240
number one recommendation there, which spurred a

564
00:34:53,780 --> 00:34:57,596
wow from the crowd was to set up a selfie spot

565
00:34:57,788 --> 00:35:00,680
at the winery. And

566
00:35:01,140 --> 00:35:04,972
because people just sense that, okay, if we get them to the

567
00:35:04,996 --> 00:35:08,828
winery and we give them a good experience at the winery, they'll most

568
00:35:08,884 --> 00:35:12,710
likely register to the club and buy more. No,

569
00:35:13,970 --> 00:35:17,402
that's not how it works. Focus on how do you

570
00:35:17,586 --> 00:35:21,002
make them buy. Not this, just the experience. And the

571
00:35:21,026 --> 00:35:24,730
experience that is a prevalent part of what's going

572
00:35:24,770 --> 00:35:28,550
on in the industry and you're, you're hitting on it. It's an important part.

573
00:35:28,930 --> 00:35:32,110
The one thing that I think most of these self promoting

574
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:36,596
LinkedIn and post people are that they, they, they're

575
00:35:36,628 --> 00:35:40,276
putting everybody in the same bucket. Every wineries in the Same bucket. You're

576
00:35:40,308 --> 00:35:43,924
all stupid, so to speak. You don't know what you're doing. And I think myself,

577
00:35:43,972 --> 00:35:47,300
there's a lot of really smart people in this industry. In fact, many of these

578
00:35:47,340 --> 00:35:50,820
wineries are there because they made it did

579
00:35:50,860 --> 00:35:54,612
well successfully financially, politically, socially, in a

580
00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:58,372
previous career. So they're not dummies. And so. But there

581
00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:02,092
is a movement of experiential, a

582
00:36:02,116 --> 00:36:05,932
marketing, because I believe, after all my experience,

583
00:36:06,036 --> 00:36:09,660
that social network advertising and marketing is going to

584
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:13,308
implode on itself. You won't be able to afford the cost of acquisition

585
00:36:13,484 --> 00:36:17,212
by the time that the congestion clears and

586
00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:21,036
get traction with your brand through that, you have to provide

587
00:36:21,108 --> 00:36:24,700
something. I don't think selfie, a selfie spot at the winery is really the best

588
00:36:24,740 --> 00:36:28,258
idea, but certainly having

589
00:36:28,314 --> 00:36:32,050
people come there is some value to the idea that

590
00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:35,234
every time I get that package, and I'll tell you what I think most of

591
00:36:35,242 --> 00:36:38,482
the problem is, every time I get a package from that

592
00:36:38,506 --> 00:36:42,338
winery, I'm going to remember that day. I'm

593
00:36:42,354 --> 00:36:46,130
going to remember that experience. My wife and I just came back and we,

594
00:36:46,170 --> 00:36:49,458
we went to Cathiard, which is owned by the

595
00:36:49,514 --> 00:36:52,930
proprietors of Smith or Lafitte in Bordeaux, and they took us on this

596
00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:56,570
journey in their Range Rover around their vineyard. I will

597
00:36:56,610 --> 00:37:00,250
remember that. I will go back to do it again because it's so interesting. Will

598
00:37:00,290 --> 00:37:03,834
I sign up for their club? You know, as a trademan? Probably not, but somebody

599
00:37:03,882 --> 00:37:07,658
else might. So I think the experiential part of this industry is, is very

600
00:37:07,714 --> 00:37:11,018
important as part of innovation is

601
00:37:11,074 --> 00:37:14,922
concerned. But, but I think one of the

602
00:37:14,946 --> 00:37:18,442
club problems that you're talking about is that a lot of people think that

603
00:37:18,546 --> 00:37:22,180
that club membership at a winery is

604
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:26,504
just getting old stuff, you know, just clearing out the warehouse every time

605
00:37:26,512 --> 00:37:29,176
they get a shipment. Because how much wine can you make? How many different brands

606
00:37:29,208 --> 00:37:32,296
do you have? How many different edit, you know, in French? How many etiquette labels

607
00:37:32,328 --> 00:37:35,980
do you have that you can continue to send

608
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,672
wine directly to consumer as a winery,

609
00:37:39,816 --> 00:37:43,592
eventually you're digging into something that's not part of your

610
00:37:43,616 --> 00:37:47,282
regular inventory or you're making it just for that. And that

611
00:37:47,306 --> 00:37:50,962
could be juice that's not from your vineyard or not from,

612
00:37:51,066 --> 00:37:54,754
you know, the source that you hope to have. So I think that's one of

613
00:37:54,762 --> 00:37:57,874
the issues that a lot of people are having with club membership at a winery,

614
00:37:57,922 --> 00:38:01,650
which is, what am I getting? Am I getting a true representation

615
00:38:01,730 --> 00:38:05,362
of that brand and that

616
00:38:05,386 --> 00:38:09,106
winemaker's, you know, skill set? You know what?

617
00:38:09,178 --> 00:38:12,748
I. I agree, but I

618
00:38:12,804 --> 00:38:15,880
Don't necessarily think that

619
00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:19,240
less of a heavy consumer like you

620
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:23,000
would expect the same thing

621
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:28,220
from a winery. It would be nice to find

622
00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:31,280
a statistic of the ages

623
00:38:33,540 --> 00:38:37,360
of current existing winery club members in the US

624
00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:40,696
I wonder how low is the percentage of people under

625
00:38:40,768 --> 00:38:44,568
35? It's going to be lower. I mean it's going to be. Baby boomers

626
00:38:44,584 --> 00:38:48,072
are going to be the, I mean mine, mine were, the last time I did

627
00:38:48,096 --> 00:38:50,900
it was 35 to 58

628
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,208
were. And this is probably about seven years ago when I actually ran the

629
00:38:55,264 --> 00:38:58,984
statistic. Right. But you, but you can get that data anytime. I mean

630
00:38:58,992 --> 00:39:02,360
it's on Google. If you have your website connected to, you know, the

631
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,000
Google, the analytics. This was just to say

632
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,820
that a younger audience

633
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,056
doesn't want 6 or 12 bottles or

634
00:39:13,128 --> 00:39:16,448
even 2 times 12 a year

635
00:39:16,584 --> 00:39:20,192
bottles from the same winery. He doesn't want to invest the

636
00:39:20,216 --> 00:39:23,888
money that those bottles cost. And,

637
00:39:23,944 --> 00:39:27,440
and thinking you could sell to that audience in that same

638
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,270
way is simply

639
00:39:32,530 --> 00:39:36,122
looking at the sun and, and, and saying it's raining or the other way

640
00:39:36,146 --> 00:39:39,946
around. It's the other point I wanted to make from that. You're

641
00:39:39,978 --> 00:39:43,770
talking about the Santa Rosa conference which was, you know, people also think that

642
00:39:43,810 --> 00:39:47,626
marketing is some one thing and you know, marketing is a

643
00:39:47,698 --> 00:39:51,390
combination of many things and it's. Oh yes, multi pronged

644
00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:55,946
approach and you. And some pieces are successful and more successful

645
00:39:55,978 --> 00:39:59,100
than others. Again, this is very funny. You know,

646
00:39:59,140 --> 00:40:02,760
selfies, I hate to say it,

647
00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:07,628
but when, when I would do a trade show, toward the end

648
00:40:07,764 --> 00:40:11,612
I had a selfie booth and

649
00:40:11,636 --> 00:40:15,388
I kept it to remind myself, you know, it really didn't do anything. People

650
00:40:15,444 --> 00:40:18,280
signed up for the free stuff and that was pretty much it.

651
00:40:18,820 --> 00:40:22,636
But those are, I think that your approach,

652
00:40:22,708 --> 00:40:26,492
the fulfillment side. Who does then? Who does then? The fulfillment side of

653
00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:30,110
the. So let's say I come to the website, I've collaborated with

654
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:33,822
another virtual customer and we split a case or we

655
00:40:33,846 --> 00:40:36,250
got 5 and 2 and 5 and 2. Whatever it is,

656
00:40:37,510 --> 00:40:41,342
who fulfills those orders? The wineries filling the orders. It could

657
00:40:41,366 --> 00:40:45,134
be both the fulfillment and their, the, the wineries and

658
00:40:45,142 --> 00:40:48,798
their fulfillment partners. So, so they're using a third

659
00:40:48,854 --> 00:40:52,286
party to fill the orders. Yes,

660
00:40:52,398 --> 00:40:56,140
one that very soon I hope we will

661
00:40:56,180 --> 00:40:59,996
even be bringing it. Meaning we won't send

662
00:41:00,028 --> 00:41:03,676
them to, you know, to look for it and

663
00:41:03,748 --> 00:41:05,640
not limit them to,

664
00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,924
to, to fulfillment partners that they're not

665
00:41:11,092 --> 00:41:14,812
working with. I mean we're trying to build a model which will make

666
00:41:14,836 --> 00:41:18,300
it first easier for us to connect to that

667
00:41:18,340 --> 00:41:22,110
fulfillment partner from an invoicing and charging perspective but

668
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:25,726
on the other hand make it very easy for the wineries and

669
00:41:25,798 --> 00:41:29,150
free for the wineries to be onboarded to that

670
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:32,910
fulfillment partner. So that legally everything is,

671
00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:36,510
it's like the last mile in the mid to long

672
00:41:36,550 --> 00:41:40,030
term. I think being on platforms like

673
00:41:40,070 --> 00:41:43,294
Commerce7 will be the way that we mostly

674
00:41:43,342 --> 00:41:46,650
work. And if you're asking me about

675
00:41:47,110 --> 00:41:50,544
possible, I mean I'm not thinking about it, but

676
00:41:50,702 --> 00:41:54,460
exit strategies, we didn't build a platform here.

677
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:58,220
It's not this huge tool. Some people can look at it and think

678
00:41:58,260 --> 00:42:01,916
oh it's just a functionality to some extent.

679
00:42:02,108 --> 00:42:05,516
So exit strategy, maybe these one stop shop

680
00:42:05,548 --> 00:42:08,640
software houses instead of developing

681
00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:13,532
such a feature themselves, which they can by the way. This isn't a

682
00:42:13,556 --> 00:42:16,760
patent, this isn't rocket science, but we're gaining ground.

683
00:42:18,140 --> 00:42:21,732
They could develop it or buy it. Well, but that's, that's an interesting

684
00:42:21,796 --> 00:42:25,556
point. And I talked about 1993 when I wrote my first

685
00:42:25,708 --> 00:42:29,044
feature set for a database driven catalog

686
00:42:29,092 --> 00:42:32,660
company and we, we wrote the subscription side of it.

687
00:42:32,780 --> 00:42:36,516
And even to this day its features

688
00:42:36,548 --> 00:42:40,084
were more robust than Commerce Sevens or big, Big Commerce

689
00:42:40,132 --> 00:42:43,740
or woocommerce, all those guys. It was still better. It was still

690
00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:46,800
better. It just was the written archaic language.

691
00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:50,732
And so that, that became an issue for me and maybe see, see where you

692
00:42:50,756 --> 00:42:54,316
fit in this. When I went out to find an engine to

693
00:42:54,388 --> 00:42:57,400
run the new software, the new website,

694
00:42:58,180 --> 00:43:01,420
you end up with this Nucleus, this engine and then you've got a bolt on,

695
00:43:01,460 --> 00:43:05,212
let's say the shipping package and you bolt on the compliance

696
00:43:05,276 --> 00:43:08,652
package and you bolt on, you know, CRM. And all of a

697
00:43:08,676 --> 00:43:12,310
sudden you know, you've got this Covid looking,

698
00:43:13,170 --> 00:43:16,842
trying to be looking cell. And the problem is

699
00:43:16,946 --> 00:43:20,586
nothing that's bolted on is talking to each other. Right.

700
00:43:20,658 --> 00:43:24,154
And so those relationships kind of got in your way if they didn't because they

701
00:43:24,162 --> 00:43:26,874
had to go through the main database every time. And so we were trying to

702
00:43:26,882 --> 00:43:30,266
find a solution which we did a couple of things to make it work. But

703
00:43:30,338 --> 00:43:32,430
where do you fit in in that Nucleus?

704
00:43:34,450 --> 00:43:38,186
I'm not afraid and not ashamed to say I still don't

705
00:43:38,218 --> 00:43:41,962
know. You know, we're learning what's the best way should

706
00:43:41,986 --> 00:43:45,030
we fit? If so, how?

707
00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:48,826
What's the easier way to do it? Again, we're

708
00:43:48,858 --> 00:43:52,410
not Monday.com. we're a startup with

709
00:43:52,530 --> 00:43:56,282
first round of funding, touch wood, closing on the

710
00:43:56,306 --> 00:44:00,042
second run right now. So we need to, we have an

711
00:44:00,066 --> 00:44:03,866
MVP working a minimum viable product. So whatever

712
00:44:03,898 --> 00:44:07,200
we do next will need to be gradual. Smart

713
00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:11,080
cost saving. I don't have yet

714
00:44:11,460 --> 00:44:15,036
the privilege of thinking, you know,

715
00:44:15,108 --> 00:44:18,636
15 steps ahead. We're going to solve each product

716
00:44:18,708 --> 00:44:22,140
problem at the time, proof each proof point at the

717
00:44:22,180 --> 00:44:26,028
time because it's complex. And I don't

718
00:44:26,044 --> 00:44:29,660
want to think that I could solve everything by simply building a new

719
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:33,458
platform that will compete with everyone at etc. On the contrary,

720
00:44:33,554 --> 00:44:37,170
I want to go slow so I make sure I don't put my

721
00:44:37,210 --> 00:44:41,058
foot on, you know, the wrong piece of glass.

722
00:44:41,234 --> 00:44:44,946
What's the, what is the number one objection? When you speak

723
00:44:44,978 --> 00:44:48,802
with a winery proprietor, even just a

724
00:44:48,826 --> 00:44:52,674
GTC company, what do they say? Yes, this is a good idea,

725
00:44:52,722 --> 00:44:56,290
but. Okay, having started

726
00:44:56,330 --> 00:44:59,378
this worldwide, like every. Country is probably different. It's different.

727
00:44:59,434 --> 00:45:01,970
Exactly. So I can tell you that

728
00:45:03,550 --> 00:45:06,790
Israel, which is where we first started, is a very adopt

729
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:09,890
digital adoptive oriented country.

730
00:45:12,190 --> 00:45:15,942
It's being used by a lot of products worldwide as a test case. But

731
00:45:15,966 --> 00:45:19,590
it's a bit of an extreme test case because we're very

732
00:45:19,630 --> 00:45:23,462
digital. So I can tell you that for example, in Europe,

733
00:45:23,566 --> 00:45:26,970
in Italy and in France, while in Piedmont they God forbid

734
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,060
selling wine on a digital

735
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,008
platform that is gamified. What are you talking about? So

736
00:45:35,144 --> 00:45:38,540
there's this digital adoption state of mind,

737
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,800
first on the side of the winery, but second, they

738
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,240
were asking, oh, our customers aren't used to buying this

739
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,648
way. Maybe we shouldn't connect them with other

740
00:45:49,704 --> 00:45:53,460
customers. So there's this digital adoption

741
00:45:54,350 --> 00:45:56,170
instinctive response

742
00:45:58,030 --> 00:46:01,766
in the US rather. First of all, people

743
00:46:01,838 --> 00:46:05,366
get it very fast. I mean, they get the concept very fast. The

744
00:46:05,438 --> 00:46:09,190
discussion on explaining the concept are usually much

745
00:46:09,230 --> 00:46:12,918
shorter discussions than when we've had in Europe. But then

746
00:46:13,054 --> 00:46:16,694
almost. Second or third question, it's the fulfillment

747
00:46:16,742 --> 00:46:20,488
part. I mean, it's like, I'm

748
00:46:20,504 --> 00:46:23,300
amazed. It's like this country created this.

749
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,460
It's like an ongoing cloud

750
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,160
and everybody's trying to figure out how, you know,

751
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,020
hard will it rain, how difficult it is.

752
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,888
It's like everyone's really making it hard for people to sell wine.

753
00:46:40,984 --> 00:46:43,848
You know, it was funny you said that I just drew a cloud on this

754
00:46:43,904 --> 00:46:47,572
paper here in my notes and it's. Yeah, so true. It's a

755
00:46:47,596 --> 00:46:51,300
great analogy because I can tell you after doing

756
00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:54,580
this for so long, nothing really changed that

757
00:46:54,620 --> 00:46:58,212
much. There's a, there's a fight out there with a couple of

758
00:46:58,236 --> 00:47:01,120
companies to be the preeminent fulfillment house.

759
00:47:02,140 --> 00:47:05,680
But the problems because of the interstate shipping issues

760
00:47:06,140 --> 00:47:09,892
are the same whether you fulfill it yourself or somebody else fulfills. And I'll give

761
00:47:09,916 --> 00:47:13,692
an example. We went up at some point to see

762
00:47:13,716 --> 00:47:17,372
a fulfillment houses years ago. My Wife and I, and only because the guy was

763
00:47:17,396 --> 00:47:20,764
Armenian and he owned the company, I thought, well, we'll go visit a nice Armenian

764
00:47:20,812 --> 00:47:23,932
guy and see what he's doing. And he had a beautiful. Maybe it was a

765
00:47:23,956 --> 00:47:27,580
hundred thousand square foot warehouse and it was packed with the brands that you

766
00:47:27,620 --> 00:47:31,308
see every day, some of the best brands of Napa. But then we went

767
00:47:31,364 --> 00:47:35,068
to the return aisle and here's these two rows of three

768
00:47:35,124 --> 00:47:38,588
high pallet racks stuffed with brown boxes, all

769
00:47:38,644 --> 00:47:41,148
returns. And my wife and I looked at us and we said, wait a minute,

770
00:47:41,164 --> 00:47:44,982
they got the same problem we do. It doesn't alleviate that problem. And so it

771
00:47:45,006 --> 00:47:48,694
probably adds a layer of headache to figure out where that box

772
00:47:48,822 --> 00:47:52,166
is sitting and when it's going to go out next to make sure it fills.

773
00:47:52,198 --> 00:47:55,686
So we always did our own fulfillment here. And so that problem hasn't

774
00:47:55,718 --> 00:47:58,770
changed. It's always going to be the same because of, because of our issue.

775
00:47:59,310 --> 00:48:03,046
So that's a slow moving needle that you're probably

776
00:48:03,078 --> 00:48:06,742
not going to solve on your own. But it's interesting. Thought you just had.

777
00:48:06,926 --> 00:48:10,720
Which one? No, before that. Not

778
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,176
only are you dealing with different countries with different mentalities and different

779
00:48:14,248 --> 00:48:17,728
rules, but you go into Piemonte, which is still very

780
00:48:17,784 --> 00:48:21,520
rural in its approach. And just to highlight that we went from

781
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,392
Pimonte straight to Bordeaux and you're talking about two different complete

782
00:48:25,456 --> 00:48:28,896
worlds of wine. Not only character, but thought process.

783
00:48:29,048 --> 00:48:32,800
And here Pimonte is really rural. And I can see

784
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,698
them saying to you, you know, what are you talking about?

785
00:48:35,754 --> 00:48:39,010
Gamifying? And that

786
00:48:39,050 --> 00:48:42,226
happens. And so every time you go into a different region or different

787
00:48:42,298 --> 00:48:46,002
country, you probably have different outlooks on

788
00:48:46,026 --> 00:48:49,310
what you're trying to do. Yes, I, I have to say

789
00:48:49,610 --> 00:48:52,190
that there are also

790
00:48:53,130 --> 00:48:55,790
quite a lot of similarities between

791
00:48:56,570 --> 00:49:00,370
the profiles of the winery owners that I see

792
00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:03,830
here to the ones in, in Europe. Because,

793
00:49:04,130 --> 00:49:07,802
you know, you would think, not being from the States, maybe just as an

794
00:49:07,826 --> 00:49:11,658
outsider view, that things here are so modern and everything

795
00:49:11,714 --> 00:49:15,210
is digital, but they're not. Even the winemakers here

796
00:49:15,250 --> 00:49:18,474
are, as you said, rural people and

797
00:49:18,562 --> 00:49:20,790
farmers. And

798
00:49:23,010 --> 00:49:26,836
it also depends. I mean, this industry is so amazing. It also depends on

799
00:49:26,938 --> 00:49:30,780
each winery by itself. Because I can tell you that

800
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,496
where we've had success in Europe, it was

801
00:49:34,568 --> 00:49:37,840
Piemonte, Tuscany, Alsace, in the

802
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,580
wineries that we were successful.

803
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,408
And this links to history, etc, there was always,

804
00:49:45,544 --> 00:49:49,220
always this either daughter or son.

805
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,530
There's like the, not the ugly duck, but the

806
00:49:53,570 --> 00:49:57,338
younger generation coming on who said, hey,

807
00:49:57,514 --> 00:50:01,034
dad or mom, this is what

808
00:50:01,122 --> 00:50:04,922
our generation wants. I mean, you may not Know the definition of

809
00:50:04,946 --> 00:50:08,250
the word gamification? Yeah, but let's try

810
00:50:08,290 --> 00:50:11,850
it. Let's try it. So in addition to

811
00:50:11,890 --> 00:50:15,594
the, like, actual wine stuff,

812
00:50:15,642 --> 00:50:19,370
there's always. There's also these cultural dynamics

813
00:50:19,450 --> 00:50:23,144
around the winery, which, I mean, I don't want to work with Robert

814
00:50:23,192 --> 00:50:27,000
Mondavi. I mean, with all due respect, you know, but I don't. These

815
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,216
are not. I'm looking for the smaller ones because that's where we

816
00:50:30,288 --> 00:50:34,104
feel we can bring more value to the table. And you get a decision

817
00:50:34,192 --> 00:50:37,512
that way. We'll wrap this up. All right. At

818
00:50:37,616 --> 00:50:41,256
52 minutes. But does this work

819
00:50:41,408 --> 00:50:45,032
at the point of sale, the tasting room? Like, can the

820
00:50:45,056 --> 00:50:48,690
software be nudged at that

821
00:50:48,730 --> 00:50:52,322
point? Like, if somebody walks in, they're standing there with two people. Let's say two

822
00:50:52,346 --> 00:50:55,762
couples go together and they want to buy three bottles.

823
00:50:55,826 --> 00:50:59,170
Exactly. The. The winemaker, in the example that you

824
00:50:59,210 --> 00:51:03,042
gave, just as he, as he puts down at the end

825
00:51:03,066 --> 00:51:06,690
of the tour and the tasting, a price list with

826
00:51:06,730 --> 00:51:10,114
us, he can decide what he wants to offer and then put down a QR

827
00:51:10,162 --> 00:51:13,810
code. Yeah. And then the phones just scan it and

828
00:51:13,850 --> 00:51:17,438
they go to that dedicated time, limited

829
00:51:17,534 --> 00:51:21,182
sale just for those two couples. Now, I have to say, when

830
00:51:21,206 --> 00:51:24,846
it's two couples, success won't be that big. It's

831
00:51:24,878 --> 00:51:28,554
usually groups of 8, 10, 12,

832
00:51:28,709 --> 00:51:32,130
15 people when there's a screen

833
00:51:32,550 --> 00:51:36,254
in the tasting room, especially in common

834
00:51:36,302 --> 00:51:39,902
tasting rooms here. This is something that I didn't see in Europe. It's new to

835
00:51:39,926 --> 00:51:43,680
me. I mean, I've become very familiar with them over the past 10 months.

836
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:47,456
But joint tasting rooms of a few wineries, like either

837
00:51:47,488 --> 00:51:51,168
in Sonoma in Napa. Yeah. This is classic for.

838
00:51:51,224 --> 00:51:54,340
For whining because it could also connect

839
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,100
customers of the different brands there.

840
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,776
And. Go ahead. The on. On the spot

841
00:52:01,888 --> 00:52:04,992
pickup issue, that saves us a

842
00:52:05,016 --> 00:52:08,672
hurdle. It's a very interesting thing. I'm going to cite these two

843
00:52:08,696 --> 00:52:12,344
stories and then we'll. We'll wrap it up. But one, early in these

844
00:52:12,432 --> 00:52:16,040
years, we did a lot of this as part of our

845
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,832
marketing. Again, the multi prong idea of marketing. And we

846
00:52:19,856 --> 00:52:23,672
were very successful for 25 years. Standing at a

847
00:52:23,696 --> 00:52:27,320
booth, at a show, signing up members only. We didn't. Couldn't sell

848
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,144
wine. But there was also the home wine tasting party. And this is a classic

849
00:52:31,192 --> 00:52:34,952
example of this because you couldn't, if, if I went to do a

850
00:52:34,976 --> 00:52:38,702
home wine taste, but I can't bring them three bottles of a

851
00:52:38,726 --> 00:52:42,494
Chardonnay and four bottles of a Sauvignon Blanc to distribute. So I,

852
00:52:42,582 --> 00:52:46,222
I would go around the room at this. Let's say there's 10 couples there and

853
00:52:46,246 --> 00:52:50,030
say we have six bottles of cabernet ordered. I need six more.

854
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:53,838
And we would upsell to fill that case to make it work.

855
00:52:53,974 --> 00:52:57,630
Right. To get the price. And it was very successful thing. We would sign

856
00:52:57,670 --> 00:53:00,302
people up, and then we would sell the cases. But it had to be a

857
00:53:00,326 --> 00:53:03,980
case because I wasn't going to split a case, deliver it somewhere. So that. That

858
00:53:04,020 --> 00:53:07,804
works, like, physically as well, not just virtually. But the other

859
00:53:07,812 --> 00:53:10,252
thing that was important that you said, that you talked about, and the reason I

860
00:53:10,276 --> 00:53:14,092
brought up this idea at a wine tasting room is we were at a tasting

861
00:53:14,156 --> 00:53:17,500
in a tasting room in Paso Robles, a very good friend of mine.

862
00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:21,000
And we walked in as the first.

863
00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:24,364
In the morning, the taste room had just opened. He and I walked in the

864
00:53:24,372 --> 00:53:27,790
front door together. And the first thing that

865
00:53:27,980 --> 00:53:31,690
his representative said to him was the first question he

866
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:34,830
had to her. How many members? Yesterday

867
00:53:35,490 --> 00:53:38,778
wasn't how many bottles? Wasn't how much Cabernet wasn't how much

868
00:53:38,914 --> 00:53:42,522
Syrah. The first question, the first metric, the first thing you wanted to know about

869
00:53:42,546 --> 00:53:46,202
the previous day's sales was how many members. Yeah. And this. This could

870
00:53:46,226 --> 00:53:49,882
change that. Like, why would. Why wasn't there a thousand dollars in

871
00:53:49,906 --> 00:53:53,630
sales? It's the wrong question. Yeah. Really interesting.

872
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,112
Well, it's been a pleasure to hear about this and unwind it a little

873
00:53:58,136 --> 00:54:00,848
bit and sort of, you know, put it on the table and see what you're

874
00:54:00,864 --> 00:54:03,232
doing. I really fascinated. I'm so glad we had a chance to talk about it.

875
00:54:03,256 --> 00:54:06,672
Me too. I'm sure we'll talk again. And

876
00:54:06,776 --> 00:54:10,480
you at any time you want to discuss some of the headwinds you've

877
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,272
come across in this process. Happy to

878
00:54:14,296 --> 00:54:17,940
take the call and chat it out. I need that shrink.

879
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,820
Yeah. Couch kind of thing. So thank you.

880
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,120
My head is clear now that I've sold the company, I'll tell you that.

881
00:54:26,620 --> 00:54:29,900
Such a pleasure to have you on the show. Pleasure is mine. Thank you.