Smart. Intoxicating. LVMH Ambassador....In China. Emilie Steckenborn.

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Wine is magical. If you can find that, and if you find a group of

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people who also share that passion, you really evoke an incredible conversation

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that's able to, as we mentioned, just bring you to a spot

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that you probably could never have dreamt of. But at the same time, I

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never, ever feel that, you know, it's wasted on anybody because I think wine brings

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people together. And that for me, connections is the most important thing. And

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bringing people together over wine, it adds to that beauty.

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Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine

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Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio

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today in beautiful Southern California, about to have a conversation way out in China

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with Emily Steckenborn. Introductions in just a minute. Hey, have a listen

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to a show I just put out. Actually, you can watch it on YouTube as

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well with Catiard, with Florence Cathiar.

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She is the proprietor with her husband of Chateau Smith au Lafitte

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as well with Cathiard Vineyards in. In. In Napa.

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Incredible insight. And they were both on the French ski team

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when they met and became celebrities in our industry. But have

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a listen to that. But now while we're here, we've already had a pre

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call with Emily, but it was so fascinating, I couldn't wait to get her on

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the show. This is Emily Steckenborg. She is the host of the podcast Bottled

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in China. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Paul. I'm so

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excited and really a big fan of your show as well. So looking forward to

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talking with you. Well, that's very kind of you to say. You know, I

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have a question. This is a serious question. Okay. Does the

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Chinese food in China reflect anything of the

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Chinese food we have in the North America?

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You know, I'm so glad you brought this up because when I first moved to

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China back in 2009, I really expected to

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have fried dumplings and just all these different foods that I was

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expecting and it was nothing, nothing like it. I was so

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disappointed. And I actually lived on ice cream the first year, so that's when I

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was very, very young and could do that. And let me just say that it

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is completely different, but some of the best food I've had in the world is

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definitely in China. And I've traveled nearly every week for years

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out in mainland China. And every single region is

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completely unique for food. So gastronomy, what we know

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back in US especially when it comes to know the fried rice, fried

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chicken, all these different things, sweet and sour, you don't

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really see it as Much as you would expect out in mainland China. It's completely

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different way of eating and the ingredients are different, and it's

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very, very different. I don't know if I. If that makes me feel good or

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not. I. I feel like I've been bamboozled all this time. And I.

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Well, me too. I don't blame you.

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Very Asian area in here in Southern California. And though I

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will say I had a. We entertained. I don't think I told you this when

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we spoke the first time. We entertained a principal of a high school

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from Shanghai, and he had to pass an English proficiency

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test to come here. And he shadowed the professor, the principal of

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Arcadia High School here in Southern California, for six weeks, and he

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wanted to live with an American family for at least a week.

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Now, am I so American? I don't know. We're Armenian. We kind of have that

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way about us. So he. But he wanted to live with us, so we did

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that for a week. And his English proficiency wasn't very good.

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So it was very hard to. To manage this guy. But I picked him up

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every day from school, dropped him off, and he wanted to eat what I ate

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every morning, and he wanted to drink what I drank, and he wanted to eat

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dinner with us because he wanted to experience American

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living in an area. Right. The poor guy. I was on

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a diet, so I was. Oh, just salad.

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Disappointing. So, but the point I was

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going to make was that he knew the restaurants in Arcadia to go

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to already before he got here, and one

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of the. He took us to one of them. There was no English on the

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menu at all, so. And I don't remember what I ate, but I'm thinking, wow,

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that might have been a little more indigenous. What did this cuisine come from? Not

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the subject of our podcast, but I wonder where this American version or North

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American version of Chinese food came from. Any idea, you know, if

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you vice versa? Well, it's actually much more southern China, so we're

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thinking Hong Kong, Guangzhou. And actually a lot of the dishes as well come from

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different regions in Asia, so. Because, of course, you also find sometimes

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sushi at a Chinese restaurant, you know, in America. So it's not, you know, it's

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not off the menu that there's also some interesting way that they localize

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to the market. And actually that brings up such a big topic, actually, Paul, in

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regards to our conversation, because vice versa, if you do look at food, Western

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food, now, today's changed a lot. If you go to main cities like Shanghai, you'll

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have incredible cafes and French food. But of course when I was there at the

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beginning, over 10 years ago, if you had a fruit salad, it had

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tomatoes in it. Right. Like you had a different types of

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foods that they, local, they thought the Chinese would

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like, but it was westernized. And so their

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idea of Western food when they do go to the US now, of course you

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have hamburgers and all that, but at the same time wasn't really a lot of

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western food. So actually vice versa, there was a misconception

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as well of a lot of the ingredients that we would use. And,

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and so it goes both ways. It definitely goes both ways. But a lot of

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the cuisine that you do see out in, you know, Canada, US etc. Is actually

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coming a lot more from Hong Kong and from Gwangju than it does from

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North China or Chengdu or Yunnan food, for example.

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That's so interesting. I just, I just had this flashback and then we'll get started,

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I guess. But my wife's cousin owns a very well

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known restaurant here in Southern California. It's been open for 35 years. It's iconic

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in its, in its position in the world of restaurant restauranting

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in Southern California. And when very

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popular with the, the indigenous Asian community, when they come to visit their

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friends from China, they go to Mipiace

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and many of them don't speak any English and they bring along on

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their phone pictures of the food that they've been told to order

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by their friends. Okay. Yep. And so that's how, I just

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think it's fascinating that it gets back to mainland China that this, when you go

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to Southern California, you must go to this restaurant and here's what you're going to

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eat. So food, the culture of food in China, is it

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that, I mean, is it part of like the America in the

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80s when it became popular? What, what is that?

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Well, you just raised two points. Number one is the power of social

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media in Asia and the way people eat.

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So what you'll also see, and probably that could be what happened as

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well, is not only word of mouth. And if we do even look at wine,

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the second most important factor when we did our research looking at

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consumer habits first is that people actually are going to go online,

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they're going to look at the brand. The second one is going to be recommendations

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from, let's say top psalms or critics. And the third will be recommendations from

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friends and family. So recommendations on food, where to eat, where

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to go, what to do is huge. Now the second big thing is also

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Xiaohongshu, for example, which is the Equivalent of a mix of Instagram

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and that type of asset because as you know, Instagram's blocked. In

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mainland China there's a lot of food blogs and food tours where you go,

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spend 24 hours in Hong Kong, spend 24 hours in Los Angeles where you should

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go eat what you should eat. So this is driving the consumption.

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And also in China we have an app called Da Zhong Xianting and

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that is basically where you could see everybody's review for food. That's where

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coupons are integrated into the platform.

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Honest reviews of food and people are very picky. And it

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does even for myself, I will not go to a restaurant before reviewing everything that

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I'm going to eat and making sure it's exactly what I want. So I think

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it's a different way of perhaps consumption and also influence

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on where people go and trying to find the best

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spots. So America

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developed its nouvelle cuisine in the

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80s. Jonathan Waxman Michael McCarty Joaquin

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Special Ken Frank and it's

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always been, at least in the wine trade that the Asian communities have been

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a little bit behind the curve. Right. Japan's a little bit ahead of the curve

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when it comes to wine. The Chinese seem to, you know, they, they grasped onto

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a few years ago, did very well with it. Consumption seems just changed.

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Is, is it the same way with food then? It, it just takes a

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little while to, to get traction. And are they health conscious about

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the food now that they're, that they're eating? Definitely food.

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You know, they definitely are conscious of that and they're careful

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with food. I think it's more about the taste and the food and maybe

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the ambiance more than, you know, health in general.

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But especially when people are dining out, it's very different than what they would

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consume at home. Now when you're asking about the

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revolution of food, food culture in China is very, very strong.

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And I would say it's a way of life. And yes

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you, if I'm understanding your question, that micro chef

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and, and those chef influencers, I feel like

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China's always been very, very food based and a lot more about

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gastronomy. And it goes to say when you go into China, there's not one food,

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there's various styles of food and various regions all have their own specialty.

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So I would say the whole food culture and how unique it is

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is not new whatsoever, but I think it's being amplified.

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But of course the idea is that social media and also the idea that

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beyond Michelin Guide there is Black Pearl, which is its own

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Michelin Style recommendation. So it even has its own

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program. And I would say if you have anybody who's been to China, they'd know

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that food is absolutely incredible and very, very diverse

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and taken very seriously. I've never gone to one meeting for wine

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where food was not the topic of the conversation. It is that

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important and it's something that people are very, very proud of.

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Let's do a quick timeline of how you got there, because you're

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not just trying to ascertain the languages you might

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speak. Because you're from Toronto, though, it's not the French side of,

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of Canada, but you did

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study in France. I'm assuming you speak some French,

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right? Yes. You obviously have a very strong Chinese accent now. So you speak

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some Chinese, you articulate English. Your English is very

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good. So how did you end up in China from Toronto?

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I've never heard anybody say it like that, but I'll start to say it like

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that, though. Paul, thanks. For now, it's going to be stuck in my head. I'll

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bring it out when I don't need it. Then they'll know I'm just not from

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Toronto, I'm from China. No, but,

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but actually, it's funny you say that. So, yes, we did grow up in French

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because obviously even in Toronto now I can't say it, but

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even out in Toronto, actually, my mom's side is all from Quebec and from

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Maria. So we do speak French. And there is a strong French within

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other areas outside of Quebec and those provinces or that

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province. So I actually, my actual, I guess, start into

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China was back in 2009. That was just for studying and I was very

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grateful for that because my family kind of sent me off to China and said,

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go figure it out. Now. We did learn Chinese growing up, and one of the

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key things as well was, you know, at the time 2009, China

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was really booming. And, well, actually, I would say it's still kind of under the.

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Under the radar, but there wasn't much information about China. All I

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knew is that we saw the potential that this will evolve into a

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key market. And I was very fortunate that I had a family that also

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saw the future and that was able to say, well, this is going to be

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a growing economy. If you could speak either both languages or work with these

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two countries, you're going to have an advantage. And they were very, very much correct.

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And I, you know, you see that in India in a way where I tried

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to study Hindi for years. It just didn't stick to me because I wasn't in

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the right environment, but it's one of those things where I think languages not only

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open up doors, but they forge real good connections, real understanding of the market

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in a way that perhaps other people might go to China for five years or

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three years and just never integrate or fully understand what it

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takes. And so I went back officially in

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2011 after some wine studies at Niagara College

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and also, you know, trying to get into the wine industry and started off my

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career back in 2011 in Shanghai at that time, and then stayed

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for over a decade or nearly a decade in Shanghai working

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with some top importers, distributors, wineries, government

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organizations as well, helping to consult their consulting for airlines like China

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Eastern as their official consultant for business and first class.

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So a lot of things there. But it was definitely an incredible moment. And

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most importantly, it was a moment where we had the chance to experience China's growth.

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But also you saw how complex it was. We

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had different types of situations always come up to us. Either

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was tariffs, which with us and China, or terrorists with

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Australia and China, or then it was the anti corruption law which destroyed a lot

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of the fine wine market early on. And it was always something new

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happening in China. So to be able to be, to

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pivot, to take what's coming at you, to change

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your plans every two, three months, it was actually very much something

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that I understood quickly and I think it's been very valuable. Are

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you completely accepted by the Chinese community?

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I think that now in, in China, that is, I think

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they're extremely welcoming. China is incredibly safe

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and people respect if you make an effort for language, if you make an

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effort to integrate, people are so receptive and

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open and I would say I'm very, very grateful.

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And another thing, actually, Paul, and I know you didn't ask that, but I think

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it kind of goes into that question. Some people ask me, you know, what it's

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like working in China as a woman, especially as a very young woman, and I

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look much younger than my age, so I've never had an issue. The

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Chinese mindset is both that if you're ready to work and put in the

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effort, you will get rewarded. And equally, a very exciting part

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as well is that especially in say, Shanghai, the women are the ones who

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manage the money, who are really the decision makers. And I've met so many incredibly

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talented women. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I would

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say because of that, I would really, you know, I'm very grateful for that

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opportunity and would recommend it to anybody to go there and to be

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Open to the experience. I mean you chose to

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rather patriarchal societies, right? I mean you've got the French

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patriarchal and then China, of course.

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And I've always thought that fascinating about the reps representatives that called on me over

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the years, particularly the French women that would come in here to sell wine and

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they all had a very similar drive to

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them and, and almost the reasons were not exactly the

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same to get out of France, but clearly it was to

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go on your own. To make my own decisions, to forge my

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own way. And that was much more difficult in France than it would have been

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here. And when I would speak French. And they also didn't

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like it. Not because my French was so bad, because it wasn't that bad, but

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it was, you know, they just loved speaking English and being part of

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the, the Southern California community. I think that's kind of where it was.

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And then he chose a chosen industry which generally

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has been put down because of their. It's not non

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acceptance of women but you know, there's just not that many women in executive

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positions. It's growing a little bit, but. So you have two,

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I'm not saying strikes against you, but certainly two pieces of headwind in

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this. I didn't feel

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well, I guess ignorance is bliss.

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Well, you could, you can set your limitations or you can do your best. And

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I think honestly at the end of the day I hear a lot of that

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and I guess that's a very, to be honest, a very North American thing where

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at least when I did work a little bit in the US I felt like

257
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everybody talked about it so much it becomes your reality, right? Oh,

258
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I'm against or they did that because I'm a woman now. I'm not ignoring that

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that does exist. Perhaps I'm also taking a different approach.

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Great. If it's something I can't change, I'm just going to work harder than anyone.

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Like I don't, I don't see why that would ever stop me or I would

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use it as a crutch. I mean I'll be very open. I started in the

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industry. I was 17. You're not allowed to drink when you're 17

264
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in Canada, I think it's a little bit older, it's just a year away. But

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I never let anything stop me. If I wanted to learn something, I go and

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do it. And I think that if you have that mindset, anything comes to

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you, you will embrace that. And so if ever I

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did have an issue where I was too young for this big position or they

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didn't think, you know, now I say my age, I never did for up until

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the last few months. But you know, I just feel like, oh,

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I'm not, I'm definitely not. But you know, I wouldn't even say some, some things

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that would bring me into that topic. But, you know, you are. People always

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put these limitations in front of them and it's actually their wrongdoing. So

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no, I think if you, if you want it as a woman, you can, you

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can get it. You might have to work hard. Don't let it stop

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you. Why that'd be. You'd hate to look back,

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right, and regret that. Well, there's, there's something important about that. And I had a

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woman on the show, she was a R D C executive

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and she started her career in, in the world of alcohol

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as like the Corona girl kind of thing. You know, she'd show up at a

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bar and she'd be scantily dressed and she would pour shots for people. And

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then she saw an executive from, from, from Young's Market at the time

283
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come into the, to set up for this event and she goes, one

284
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day I want to wear the business suit. And she

285
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became Southern California, major player in the district.

286
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And she retired the same, actually the same exact day I did from the trade.

287
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But she came on the show to talk about. It's almost a

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lie. She said it's a lie to think that you can do

289
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all these things and particularly in the industry that we're in, which is very

290
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demanding, which is. Takes you to restaurants

291
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at night and your schedule is very fluid, as you already know,

292
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to when you get home and when you're. She had triplets and so she

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said, yeah, yeah, right, that's different. Right. But she said it took the

294
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kids, I don't know, six to nine months for them

295
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to trust her that she's. When she said, I'm going to step out, you know,

296
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I'll be back in an hour kind of thing for them to trust her. And

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it's, it's very demanding. And I mean, given those

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circumstances, is it, is, is

299
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the trade in China like that? Are you out

300
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doing tastings at night entertaining

301
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dignitaries with wine as a luxury brand

302
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representative? 100% and

303
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especially true in mainland China. When I had a team, we

304
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had a team of ambassadors across Asia and, and for my team

305
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In China, our KPI was over 250 events a year. Right. So

306
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you could just imagine how many times you have to go out. And I was

307
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drinking with government and our, and our Wholesalers and our

308
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:35,134
distributors and traveling at least to one to two cities a

309
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week minimum. And we were drinking, I would say, at least three, four times a

310
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week. And it wasn't, you know, if, you know, Chinese drinking culture for business.

311
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And it was very much Gun Bay, right. So you had to go to every

312
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table. We had sometimes 50, 60 tables. And you have to go drink with

313
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everybody in chairs and show face. So definitely. And I think that that

314
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that was a very demanding time of

315
00:18:55,792 --> 00:18:59,576
during my career because it was quite extreme. I think Hong Kong,

316
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the drinking is a lot more reasonable. So yes, there

317
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different types of consumption. But if you did come to China and you were expected

318
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to be in that role, I would expect that you would be able to do

319
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that. So I think it's changed a little bit, of course, for health reasons and

320
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also just because as you go on, it is a difficult schedule to main.

321
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I do think it was really worth it to be able to meet so many

322
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people, understand the trade, what really goes on in tier two, tier

323
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three markets, really what's going on, what the consumer wants in China, what

324
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they tell you, not just what you read in a magazine. So I think that

325
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was very valuable. And yes, it is very difficult. You have to just make choices

326
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and also try to find balance, which I think is also a different phase of

327
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each life. And I could do that at that phase. And now today is a

328
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little bit different. You know, you said something earlier, but

329
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consumer habits and just brought it up again. You know,

330
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there is this big shift in consumerism of

331
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Chinese, in the Chinese community of wine.

332
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And this is one of the comments I was making about the curve

333
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that the Asian communities go through when they find wine. And

334
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that is they start with only the best that they can find. The best Bordeaux,

335
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the best Napa, the best whatever. And then eventually the community learns

336
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that there's some really great things in different price ranges and the community's got

337
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out. But you moved into the luxury brand market with

338
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lvmh. Was that a whole different

339
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experience for you when you got to that level of marketing

340
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and consumerism? Not

341
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necessarily. I feel that in

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regards to what we do in China, yes, in general,

343
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I think the consumption habit, especially earlier

344
00:20:39,538 --> 00:20:43,178
on, was very much driven by Bordeaux and was very much driven by the top

345
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chateaus in terms of knowledge base and understanding. And then

346
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you did have a wave of people just purchasing that who did have money.

347
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So that was a very different time. And yes, you're correct, we have to adapt.

348
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The consumer now is very different than just buying labels that's still an important

349
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and incredibly important part. I did mention at the beginning that that's one of the

350
00:21:02,466 --> 00:21:06,122
key factors for consumers who are choosing a bottle of wine. Brand is

351
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the number one factor. Now, it doesn't only be the expensive Lafitte. It could

352
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be as a general example, it could be Penfuls, which is one of the most

353
00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:16,550
recognized brands. And I used to work with them. So it is a brand, right?

354
00:21:16,590 --> 00:21:20,326
The 407 is a brand. Then you have Cloudy Bay as a brand.

355
00:21:20,398 --> 00:21:23,366
So these very. These brands are incredibly important. And people

356
00:21:23,438 --> 00:21:26,870
underestimate the amount of time it does take to build an investment

357
00:21:26,990 --> 00:21:30,822
require. But also what people underestimate is the power of a brand. And sometimes we

358
00:21:30,846 --> 00:21:34,682
feel like discounting is the right option or all these different tactics. So my

359
00:21:34,706 --> 00:21:37,818
recommendation, as you mentioned, is, you know, is the. Is the consumer very much into

360
00:21:37,874 --> 00:21:41,018
brands in China? Yes, they are. But it's not just because it's a name. It's

361
00:21:41,034 --> 00:21:44,650
because what it represents. It represents. If you purchase this, you have a

362
00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:48,154
quality guarantee with it. That's really where it is. And also it's the

363
00:21:48,162 --> 00:21:51,514
clarity of saying, if I buy this, because, you know, as you know with wine,

364
00:21:51,562 --> 00:21:54,554
right, you can only know if it's good once you've opened the bottle. So are

365
00:21:54,562 --> 00:21:58,090
you willing to pay 50, 60, 100, $200

366
00:21:58,170 --> 00:22:00,858
to find out you don't like it? So you're going to go with what people

367
00:22:00,914 --> 00:22:04,750
recommend. If you're not too aware of. Of how to taste wine now, with

368
00:22:04,790 --> 00:22:08,462
education, with tasting, then it becomes a very different story. And that's where people now

369
00:22:08,486 --> 00:22:12,030
are branching out, especially in tier ones where they're interested in

370
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:15,806
orange wine and they're interested in natural wine. And you see the movement towards

371
00:22:15,918 --> 00:22:19,406
Burgundy, whereas that really wasn't existing

372
00:22:19,598 --> 00:22:23,438
5, 10 years ago. Burgundy was just not a thing. It was really dominated

373
00:22:23,454 --> 00:22:27,246
by Bordeaux. And today Burgundy is very exciting, but it's really for

374
00:22:27,318 --> 00:22:30,762
a very niche consumer. Kind

375
00:22:30,786 --> 00:22:34,394
of. Kind of lies with what I'm saying, because, you

376
00:22:34,402 --> 00:22:37,434
know, all roads lead to Burgundy when it comes to being an Eophile,

377
00:22:37,482 --> 00:22:41,082
eventually. And it takes a while to get it.

378
00:22:41,106 --> 00:22:44,826
And I opened a bottle of Grand Cru yesterday and I was just like, blew

379
00:22:44,858 --> 00:22:48,234
everybody away. Had never experienced this complexity

380
00:22:48,282 --> 00:22:52,074
before. But you said something interesting. And it was early on in social networking,

381
00:22:52,122 --> 00:22:55,962
back in the early days when Facebook first started, and there weren't even ads on

382
00:22:55,986 --> 00:22:59,632
Facebook because no one wanted to leave social networking to

383
00:22:59,656 --> 00:23:03,248
buy something that you just didn't do that. It was completely opposite of today, but

384
00:23:03,304 --> 00:23:06,560
it was contended and was part of the narrative

385
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,240
that the generation that was jumping on

386
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,968
Facebook at the time, 80% of them would have preferred

387
00:23:14,064 --> 00:23:17,792
a recommendation on a product than to go out and figure out on their

388
00:23:17,816 --> 00:23:20,464
own. Now I'm the opposite. I have to figure out my own. And if I

389
00:23:20,472 --> 00:23:24,288
make a mistake, that's my fault. But. But that still seems

390
00:23:24,304 --> 00:23:27,868
to be true, particularly with the way marketing has been going these days

391
00:23:27,924 --> 00:23:31,692
that, yeah, people just will take that Yelp or the Michelin. I use

392
00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:33,880
the Michelin guy when I travel. But

393
00:23:35,140 --> 00:23:38,892
they'll take that recommendation over trying to

394
00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:42,620
hammer it out themselves. And I'm assuming that with the,

395
00:23:42,660 --> 00:23:45,932
with the Chinese apps is very

396
00:23:45,956 --> 00:23:49,580
similar, 100%. You know, you

397
00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:53,458
have, I think I mentioned very briefly before something called Little Red Book.

398
00:23:53,564 --> 00:23:57,254
Little Red Book is where most people now don't even use search engines.

399
00:23:57,302 --> 00:24:00,854
They just go on that little imagine. It's almost like a, an Instagram

400
00:24:00,902 --> 00:24:04,182
interface, right? Or kind of a blend between Instagram and TikTok. But you can also

401
00:24:04,206 --> 00:24:07,542
purchase on that app. So if you wanted to find a real review about the

402
00:24:07,566 --> 00:24:10,534
wine you're going to drink or a real review about the product you're going to

403
00:24:10,542 --> 00:24:14,134
purchase for makeup or perfume, you can watch a little video and figure it

404
00:24:14,142 --> 00:24:17,622
out. And consumers, you know, we do see that the economy is

405
00:24:17,646 --> 00:24:20,694
struggling, so spending is also

406
00:24:20,782 --> 00:24:24,470
tightening, is changing, and therefore people are a little bit

407
00:24:24,510 --> 00:24:27,750
more cautious with their spending. And therefore they do want to make sure they're getting

408
00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:30,902
value for money or they're, or they're making sure what they're receiving. When it comes

409
00:24:30,926 --> 00:24:34,534
to other apps like platforms where we purchase Tmall,

410
00:24:34,582 --> 00:24:38,294
JD.com, taobao or other apps, you see the

411
00:24:38,302 --> 00:24:41,798
recommendations everywhere and you see the star rating and then you see how many people

412
00:24:41,854 --> 00:24:45,062
even purchase that product. A little bit like Amazon would, right? And same thing, when

413
00:24:45,086 --> 00:24:48,360
you do go on Amazon and you want to purchase anything, it does matter if

414
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,152
it's a two star or a four star. Is there, is there

415
00:24:52,176 --> 00:24:55,752
a DCC market for wine in

416
00:24:55,776 --> 00:24:58,580
China? Can I order online and have a ship to my house?

417
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,856
The D2C network in China is absolutely

418
00:25:02,888 --> 00:25:05,940
incredible. I would say it's the best in the world. And

419
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,312
I used to only buy my wine online and you could order a

420
00:25:10,336 --> 00:25:14,180
bottle. Incredible things even from the 90s or they always had something special

421
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,264
and great prices now. So you do see a lot less tnt.

422
00:25:18,312 --> 00:25:22,104
So wine coming into the market, which is parallel and it would come to

423
00:25:22,112 --> 00:25:25,832
my house packed fully packed in a great packaging within one or two

424
00:25:25,856 --> 00:25:28,808
days. You don't Need a signature. It's just left outside of your door. If you're

425
00:25:28,824 --> 00:25:32,472
not there, no one takes it. There's, you know, there's surveillance. So you don't have

426
00:25:32,496 --> 00:25:35,624
any of that. That. What is it called? Like, balcony fraud? Is that what it

427
00:25:35,632 --> 00:25:39,112
is? Sorry. Yeah. I could have made a fortunate. We don't have

428
00:25:39,136 --> 00:25:42,802
that right. Logistics is really incredible. And

429
00:25:42,826 --> 00:25:45,554
even for food. I was just with a friend yesterday and we were thinking. We

430
00:25:45,562 --> 00:25:48,242
were just discussing how I never cooked at home. I just never had the time.

431
00:25:48,266 --> 00:25:51,938
And I would take takeout, but I would have food maybe for $5

432
00:25:52,074 --> 00:25:55,602
and it would still be included with delivery. That's how insane it

433
00:25:55,626 --> 00:25:59,458
was. And it's very much that. Very low prices,

434
00:25:59,634 --> 00:26:02,626
huge. You know, right now also, you do see a lot of people who can't

435
00:26:02,658 --> 00:26:06,290
find jobs. So there are a lot of delivery men and applications which

436
00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:09,858
can do the job very quickly and efficiently. So the

437
00:26:09,994 --> 00:26:13,602
integration and seamless experience, even of somebody who's doing a

438
00:26:13,626 --> 00:26:17,362
live stream and you purchasing that bottle and the bottle coming within one or two

439
00:26:17,386 --> 00:26:21,042
days is. Is real. And it is a

440
00:26:21,066 --> 00:26:24,770
great consumer experience that you want to purchase

441
00:26:24,850 --> 00:26:28,690
online and you can refund it and there's no issues. And it really

442
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:31,858
is set up in a way where, you know, a lot of my favorite stores

443
00:26:31,874 --> 00:26:35,586
in Shanghai just don't exist because everything's online and they have their own official flagship

444
00:26:35,618 --> 00:26:38,590
store. So it's a very different way of

445
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:42,478
consuming wine. Isn't that amazing purchasing? Isn't

446
00:26:42,494 --> 00:26:45,690
that. Yeah, like. Well, Canada is very

447
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:49,742
restricted. You know, they have like 100 tariff on. I sent

448
00:26:49,766 --> 00:26:53,130
a case of Opus once to Ontario and

449
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:57,022
it was, you know, they were going to tax me the same value of the

450
00:26:57,046 --> 00:27:00,862
case of Opus, which is like $6,000. And so I said,

451
00:27:00,886 --> 00:27:04,694
no, thanks, I'll take it back. But. And in America, everybody knows the DTC

452
00:27:04,742 --> 00:27:07,782
rules are ridiculous. And part of the reason that my wife and I

453
00:27:07,806 --> 00:27:11,622
retired when we did was, was because she didn't want to do

454
00:27:11,646 --> 00:27:15,398
38 more tax returns, you know, by the. By the mid

455
00:27:15,454 --> 00:27:19,222
year. So we just stopped altogether. And so that's really

456
00:27:19,246 --> 00:27:22,902
interesting that culturally it's better.

457
00:27:23,006 --> 00:27:26,246
It's better than America, it's better than North America. And

458
00:27:26,398 --> 00:27:30,128
so I was looking at some of your credentials and you're

459
00:27:30,144 --> 00:27:33,504
talking about one of the things that was written about you, the top 50 wine

460
00:27:33,552 --> 00:27:37,136
influencers. What does that mean to you? You didn't

461
00:27:37,168 --> 00:27:40,896
seek to be a wine influencer. And is it something that you. I'm

462
00:27:40,928 --> 00:27:44,704
gonna say leverage, but something that you use in your job today. No, I think

463
00:27:44,712 --> 00:27:48,272
I never really say it or use it or anything, but

464
00:27:48,456 --> 00:27:52,240
I think that's probably coming from the podcast and the conversations and then being able

465
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,632
to bring out the stories of what's going on in China and share that with

466
00:27:55,656 --> 00:27:58,934
the world. When I did start Bottled in China, it was 2016, and so it

467
00:27:58,942 --> 00:28:02,022
was very early on where there was just. I was just fed up to hear

468
00:28:02,046 --> 00:28:05,798
all the news about China or especially for food that we were talking about before,

469
00:28:05,934 --> 00:28:09,654
and also the wine industry and people having such a negative perception. So I

470
00:28:09,662 --> 00:28:13,270
guess it was coming from that, where, you know, having that platform to discuss and

471
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:17,030
try to change people's idea and concepts of China and give more

472
00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:20,822
clarity on the market. But I would say it's always useful, of

473
00:28:20,846 --> 00:28:24,694
course, but I definitely never. I've never used it. I didn't set out. My

474
00:28:24,702 --> 00:28:28,120
goal is to understand how the business can grow in

475
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,768
Asia and Asia Pacific, and of course, with a focus

476
00:28:31,824 --> 00:28:34,740
on China. And that's my. My first focus.

477
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:38,340
You have a very

478
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,424
efficient way of articulating your thoughts. And I've

479
00:28:44,472 --> 00:28:47,300
had many influencers on this show,

480
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,072
and it would take me sometimes. Remember we talked about earlier how sometimes shows just

481
00:28:52,096 --> 00:28:54,990
don't go that well? You know, a lot of those. A lot of those just

482
00:28:55,030 --> 00:28:57,886
don't go that well. I can't get them to

483
00:28:58,038 --> 00:29:01,770
produce an original thought. And

484
00:29:02,550 --> 00:29:06,254
as a marketeer, the influencers were worthless

485
00:29:06,302 --> 00:29:09,886
to my business when I started, and I just tried out where.

486
00:29:10,038 --> 00:29:12,238
And so I wasn't trying to put you in the corner. It's like, hey, what's

487
00:29:12,254 --> 00:29:15,902
your influencer stuff and what's your status? But I was trying to ascertain if that

488
00:29:15,926 --> 00:29:19,022
was. Obviously, that wasn't a goal of yours at this point. It was just that

489
00:29:19,046 --> 00:29:22,560
you had a message that you wanted to bring to the table, and that's what

490
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,920
you started to do with the podcast. And so Bottled in. In

491
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,580
China, how often are you recording that show?

492
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,472
You know, I really wish I could do more. There's quite a lot on my

493
00:29:33,496 --> 00:29:37,120
plate at the moment. And as I mentioned, Bottled in China, there's. There's no.

494
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,672
We talked about that previously. There's no advertisement. I do it truly out of

495
00:29:40,696 --> 00:29:44,512
passion. And the goal really is to just share the stories. And also

496
00:29:44,536 --> 00:29:48,272
because our industry is so incredibly diverse, Paul, you know that better than

497
00:29:48,296 --> 00:29:51,958
anybody, that people are outstanding and. And these stories and it's.

498
00:29:52,004 --> 00:29:55,794
And also the business side, I love the business side of our industry. I

499
00:29:55,802 --> 00:29:58,242
know some people, they just like the wine or they like the stories. They love

500
00:29:58,266 --> 00:30:02,050
the history. I Love the business side of what we do because it's. It's people,

501
00:30:02,090 --> 00:30:05,794
it's product, it's passion, and it's complex and it's

502
00:30:05,842 --> 00:30:09,570
very complex and it's innovative. So,

503
00:30:09,690 --> 00:30:13,122
you know, for bottle in China, we. I used to do quite a lot of

504
00:30:13,226 --> 00:30:16,914
episodes, maybe three, four a month, but now I only do once a

505
00:30:16,922 --> 00:30:20,562
month. And to be very honest with you, I think it's the right rhythm for

506
00:30:20,586 --> 00:30:24,022
now. I'll pick it back up once my exams are finished in a few.

507
00:30:24,186 --> 00:30:27,886
But the idea really is that as long as I can bring a voice and

508
00:30:27,958 --> 00:30:31,630
bring different perspectives is really the goal.

509
00:30:31,710 --> 00:30:35,022
And I think we've done quite interesting. We've been featured in airlines. We've had the

510
00:30:35,046 --> 00:30:38,782
chance to speak about this at various conferences and

511
00:30:38,886 --> 00:30:42,542
just excited that we get to do this out of pure passion. And I think

512
00:30:42,566 --> 00:30:46,222
you should have a passion, whatever you do in life, even a little side project,

513
00:30:46,326 --> 00:30:50,110
because it allows you the chance to develop new skills, but most importantly, to

514
00:30:50,150 --> 00:30:53,320
connect with people that you would have never connected with before.

515
00:30:54,580 --> 00:30:58,428
Well, we are very fortunate. And delivered. Mine wasn't

516
00:30:58,444 --> 00:31:01,004
delivered. My dad fell in love with wine in

517
00:31:01,012 --> 00:31:04,252
1972 when he started his wine shop.

518
00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:07,532
But. And it wasn't meant to be. He was a

519
00:31:07,556 --> 00:31:11,260
pharmacist, but I thank him every day. He

520
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:14,812
passed away a couple years ago for. For having brought me to the table on

521
00:31:14,836 --> 00:31:18,348
this business. And it was business. I mean, when I bought it in 1988, I

522
00:31:18,404 --> 00:31:22,172
wanted to sell bottles. Man, we sold 17 million bottles in 35 years. I just

523
00:31:22,196 --> 00:31:25,576
wanted to sell more. And all of a sudden it clicked in. And this goes

524
00:31:25,608 --> 00:31:28,712
to a comment that was made on one of your blogs or one of your

525
00:31:28,896 --> 00:31:32,220
articles about you, which was this journey of wine.

526
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,744
It is such a multifaceted product that

527
00:31:36,832 --> 00:31:40,140
represents nothing else in the world is like wine.

528
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,088
Maybe from Anthony Bourdain's quote that we talked about earlier about

529
00:31:44,144 --> 00:31:47,640
culture and the landscape of culture,

530
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,000
food and cuisine is really what life is

531
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,460
about. And wine obviously is part of that. It represents

532
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,592
place, it represents a time. And one woman put

533
00:31:59,616 --> 00:32:03,384
it very eloquently to me. She said, what other product can you

534
00:32:03,392 --> 00:32:05,992
take halfway around the world, put on the table and say, this is who we

535
00:32:06,016 --> 00:32:09,832
are. You can't do that with anything else. And this is when

536
00:32:09,856 --> 00:32:13,480
we were right. The journey. But the

537
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,080
passion you're talking about is real passion because you

538
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,472
cannot possibly get through this industry with the amount of work it takes and the

539
00:32:20,496 --> 00:32:24,184
messaging and the storytelling it takes without having a deep

540
00:32:24,232 --> 00:32:27,832
desire to tell the stories. You can't do it. I'm doing two a

541
00:32:27,856 --> 00:32:30,744
week, you know, and it. And I don't have a staff anymore. I used to

542
00:32:30,752 --> 00:32:34,120
have an engineer. I used to have a digital designer. I also had a social

543
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,944
network. I don't have anymore. But I'm not slowing down because I

544
00:32:38,032 --> 00:32:41,160
want people to feel

545
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,888
what a proper glass of wine does. So that leads to this

546
00:32:44,944 --> 00:32:48,528
question, and it's on your thing. Is that my journey of wine?

547
00:32:48,664 --> 00:32:52,288
You have a journey of wine. Do you think that is

548
00:32:52,424 --> 00:32:56,192
that actually in itself is the definition of the aristocracy that people feel

549
00:32:56,216 --> 00:32:59,872
about wine? Like, we're so passionate and we'd get to the table even last night,

550
00:32:59,896 --> 00:33:03,680
I'm talking about this Burgundy, and I'm talking about, you know, or something,

551
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,860
and then no one understands what I'm talking about.

552
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,896
And I'm. I just kind of hit me when I was writing this, like, maybe

553
00:33:10,928 --> 00:33:14,704
that's the separation. We had this journey, and we had this moment

554
00:33:14,752 --> 00:33:18,420
or this epiphany or this wine took a little longer. And

555
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:22,292
that people that don't feel that yet. Is this the

556
00:33:22,316 --> 00:33:26,052
difference? Is the aristocracy. Does that make sense? Yes. So, you

557
00:33:26,076 --> 00:33:29,764
know, I think now it depends how you always speak. You know, I

558
00:33:29,772 --> 00:33:33,492
def. I do feel that with any guest I have or anybody I meet, you

559
00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:36,836
do have to change your speech. Right. How we talk about wine and our passion

560
00:33:36,868 --> 00:33:39,720
is very different than if we had somebody who's new to wine.

561
00:33:40,220 --> 00:33:44,062
So I guess I would say you do have to tailor what you're going

562
00:33:44,086 --> 00:33:47,758
to say and how you present it. I mean, I've done thousands of presentations about

563
00:33:47,814 --> 00:33:51,422
wine, from wine basics to masterclasses. And the

564
00:33:51,446 --> 00:33:54,942
reality is that you cannot. There is not one size fits all. And it's not

565
00:33:54,966 --> 00:33:58,638
about your journey. It actually is about the consumer's journey. So if you're speaking to

566
00:33:58,694 --> 00:34:02,446
a consumer, now, this is different, you know, the podcast. But if I am speaking

567
00:34:02,478 --> 00:34:06,302
to a consumer, I try not to talk. You know, I

568
00:34:06,326 --> 00:34:09,800
ask them questions, I engage with them, find what's interesting for

569
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,460
them. What is their experience? It's not about me at all.

570
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:17,672
You know, I don't think it should. No, I agree with

571
00:34:17,696 --> 00:34:21,544
that. So that leads this other thing, which I brought up on a

572
00:34:21,552 --> 00:34:23,528
podcast the other day. And I kind of hear me, and I go, wow, that's

573
00:34:23,544 --> 00:34:27,336
kind of interesting. And that is. Yeah, wine can be intimidating

574
00:34:27,368 --> 00:34:30,904
to a lot of people. And it is, because it's complicated. I mean, real wine

575
00:34:30,952 --> 00:34:34,712
is complicated. If you're. If you're. If you're selling peach flavored, you know,

576
00:34:34,736 --> 00:34:38,385
fermented grape juice, that's different. But if you're really selling

577
00:34:38,577 --> 00:34:41,949
a glass of wine that has the character that we talk about,

578
00:34:43,449 --> 00:34:47,233
it's intimidating because people, they don't want to hear the words. And

579
00:34:47,321 --> 00:34:50,769
I think this swirling and sniffing is for the birds. I think talking about

580
00:34:50,889 --> 00:34:54,509
cassis and all those things is irrelevant to most people.

581
00:34:55,369 --> 00:34:59,121
But almost invariably, even last night when

582
00:34:59,145 --> 00:35:02,269
we had corned beef and cabbage, the conversation comes around

583
00:35:02,740 --> 00:35:06,092
to wine. And it's unintimidating at that

584
00:35:06,116 --> 00:35:09,900
moment. And I think it's. I think I learned your lesson, which

585
00:35:09,940 --> 00:35:13,740
is if you don't say too much and just listen to the people talk and

586
00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:17,320
you hear what they're feeling and sensing and what they want to say,

587
00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:21,116
then it becomes rather important part of a dinner

588
00:35:21,148 --> 00:35:24,972
conversation. There's a French movie out

589
00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:28,732
now. It's about the first restaurant. Have you heard about this? You

590
00:35:28,756 --> 00:35:32,472
know. No, no, I forgot the name of it.

591
00:35:32,496 --> 00:35:35,512
Now I remember. Anyway, let me know. I'll go try to. I'll go try to

592
00:35:35,536 --> 00:35:39,160
find it. It's a great movie. I saw it on the plane, and the

593
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,112
head guy says wine is the intellectual part

594
00:35:43,136 --> 00:35:46,780
of the meal. And that seems so true.

595
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,912
Yeah, for sure. But, you know, I think. I

596
00:35:51,936 --> 00:35:55,576
think that there's different people and ways consuming. I always put myself in the shoes

597
00:35:55,608 --> 00:35:59,458
of maybe somebody. I mean, I'm not a big whiskey drinker, but there's

598
00:35:59,474 --> 00:36:03,122
some people who are fans and know everything about whiskey and all the different

599
00:36:03,226 --> 00:36:06,818
styles and collections, and they. And they have an incredible collection.

600
00:36:06,994 --> 00:36:09,282
And so I always feel humbled because at the end of the day, I feel

601
00:36:09,306 --> 00:36:12,194
I know nothing. Right. And even for wine, it doesn't matter how long you're in

602
00:36:12,202 --> 00:36:15,762
the industry, if you just retain that, then you realize, like, yeah, you're also not

603
00:36:15,786 --> 00:36:18,738
an expert at everything. And so it's just. It's just your

604
00:36:18,794 --> 00:36:22,610
perspective, Right? So I guess in my view is, you are correct.

605
00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:25,282
Wine is magical. If you can find that, and if you find a group of

606
00:36:25,306 --> 00:36:29,122
people who also share that passion, you really evoke an incredible conversation

607
00:36:29,186 --> 00:36:32,050
that's able to, as we mentioned,

608
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:35,982
just bring you to a spot that you probably could never have dreamt of. But

609
00:36:36,006 --> 00:36:39,502
at the same time, I never, ever feel that,

610
00:36:39,686 --> 00:36:43,310
you know, it's wasted on anybody, because I think wine brings people together. And that,

611
00:36:43,350 --> 00:36:46,958
for me, connections is the most important thing. And bringing people together

612
00:36:47,014 --> 00:36:49,970
over wine, it adds to that beauty.

613
00:36:51,350 --> 00:36:55,102
It's so unique, and it's harder to define,

614
00:36:55,166 --> 00:36:58,818
actually. It's actually really hard to define why that happens. I did have

615
00:36:58,874 --> 00:37:01,314
a guest on the other day, and you should have her. Well, I don't know

616
00:37:01,322 --> 00:37:04,910
if they understand the Chinese market, but she was

617
00:37:06,410 --> 00:37:10,210
two masters in theology from very well known

618
00:37:10,250 --> 00:37:13,522
schools and one Ph.D. in theology. And she

619
00:37:13,626 --> 00:37:17,250
is, you're waving the banner of the Bible and

620
00:37:17,290 --> 00:37:20,670
wine. And I had to have her on

621
00:37:21,130 --> 00:37:24,822
because I wanted to articulate some of this stuff. And we

622
00:37:24,846 --> 00:37:28,534
had a great conversation and it almost

623
00:37:28,622 --> 00:37:32,050
defined, it almost defined why

624
00:37:32,430 --> 00:37:35,670
of all the beverages we can have, why

625
00:37:35,790 --> 00:37:39,414
wine connects to the soul? I mean,

626
00:37:39,502 --> 00:37:42,870
what was her, what was her response? Well, she,

627
00:37:42,990 --> 00:37:46,650
basically, because it's from God and that's

628
00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:51,062
been built into the process of wine and

629
00:37:51,086 --> 00:37:54,860
how it, how grapes become the conduit of the soil. Because

630
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:58,332
I told her, I said, you know, the scientists can tell

631
00:37:58,356 --> 00:38:02,012
us how those happen, how the micronutrients are transferred to the

632
00:38:02,036 --> 00:38:05,628
tap roots and they go up and we trellis things that we change the way.

633
00:38:05,684 --> 00:38:08,800
They can tell us how that happens. They don't tell us why it happens.

634
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:13,308
Why does it do that? And why do we sit around and share

635
00:38:13,364 --> 00:38:16,840
glasses of wine and relate as humans? And why,

636
00:38:17,150 --> 00:38:20,310
why does the evolution of our

637
00:38:20,350 --> 00:38:24,022
palate end up in place like Burgundy, where the

638
00:38:24,046 --> 00:38:27,638
complexity becomes known? Why do we get bored of over

639
00:38:27,694 --> 00:38:31,446
sugared, over extracted fruit wines? Why do we get tired

640
00:38:31,478 --> 00:38:34,822
of White Claw? Why do we get tired of some of these wines coming out

641
00:38:34,846 --> 00:38:38,050
of Napa Valley and end up with these

642
00:38:38,670 --> 00:38:42,422
true expressions of the soil? Anyway, so the conversation was about. That was really

643
00:38:42,526 --> 00:38:44,770
interesting. I'll have to go check it out.

644
00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:49,490
I look forward to that. Her name is Gisla.

645
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:53,822
She's German. So you, you're now with

646
00:38:53,926 --> 00:38:57,662
a luxury brand. And, and this is important part of the conversation about

647
00:38:57,686 --> 00:39:01,262
what we do, because I'm tired of,

648
00:39:01,366 --> 00:39:04,750
frankly, some of the lip services I've put on some of my

649
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:08,174
posts of we need to be more innovative in the wine

650
00:39:08,222 --> 00:39:11,790
trade, you know, and then it's just people that

651
00:39:11,830 --> 00:39:15,602
haven't been through the ringer, they haven't, you know, what I

652
00:39:15,626 --> 00:39:18,642
say is it's easy to give advice from the veil of COVID than it is

653
00:39:18,666 --> 00:39:22,402
to use it at the point of attack, right? And we need to be more

654
00:39:22,426 --> 00:39:25,394
innovative. We need to do this. And I, I don't think cans are innovation. I

655
00:39:25,402 --> 00:39:29,202
don't think tetra packs are innovation. I don't believe that at all. Or there's two

656
00:39:29,226 --> 00:39:32,818
types of innovation. Innovation that deals with the consumer and these

657
00:39:32,874 --> 00:39:36,210
temporary blips in the marketplace and innovation in the

658
00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:39,712
vineyard and at the winery and the brands we're putting out that

659
00:39:39,736 --> 00:39:43,536
represent something. But you're in a, you're you're in a luxury brand.

660
00:39:43,608 --> 00:39:47,440
I mean, you only deal with that side of the fence. How

661
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,620
is that in China and how is that for your own

662
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,704
objectives? Well, I think, as you mentioned, we have brands with incredible

663
00:39:54,752 --> 00:39:58,576
stories to tell and quality to back it up. So that's very exciting.

664
00:39:58,768 --> 00:40:02,432
And definitely we are also pushing the boundaries in

665
00:40:02,456 --> 00:40:05,830
regards to the experience. But at the end of the day, you're correct.

666
00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:10,578
It is definitely something we could be proud of, and I think that's very important.

667
00:40:10,634 --> 00:40:14,258
The portfolio. Now, if I understand why, you also have two parts of the question.

668
00:40:14,314 --> 00:40:18,130
One is about innovation, the other one's more about selling luxury wines. And

669
00:40:18,170 --> 00:40:21,698
I guess the idea around innovation, look, I guess it's

670
00:40:21,714 --> 00:40:25,490
twofold, right? Innovation you just spoke about packaging has been there since

671
00:40:25,530 --> 00:40:29,346
the early 80s for various types of bag and box and cans, et cetera,

672
00:40:29,378 --> 00:40:32,462
and it just never really took off. So it's not innovation. I know there was

673
00:40:32,486 --> 00:40:35,530
a. We talked about that too previously. There is a French article recently

674
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:40,270
in a French magazine all about how French are going to

675
00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:43,710
invest because they're trying to help the industry into innovation. But there was no

676
00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:47,550
solution. So, you know, innovation is an important part because

677
00:40:47,590 --> 00:40:51,230
innovation is at the center of any type of creation. At the same

678
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:54,942
time, the wine industry has always been

679
00:40:54,966 --> 00:40:58,766
innovating with so many different products, if it's rtds, if it's different grape varietals

680
00:40:58,798 --> 00:41:01,902
and different styles. So there's always been innovation, but it's not what you think it

681
00:41:01,926 --> 00:41:04,922
is. And there's probably a lot more innovation that happens in the vineyards and in

682
00:41:04,946 --> 00:41:08,310
the wineries that people just don't even know are part of the wine process.

683
00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:12,550
So the other thing is consumers, just as you would buy

684
00:41:12,930 --> 00:41:16,650
a laptop or as you would buy any product, that

685
00:41:16,770 --> 00:41:20,346
wine glass that is quite heavy with a cork still

686
00:41:20,418 --> 00:41:24,106
resonates today. So beyond innovation, doesn't

687
00:41:24,138 --> 00:41:27,162
matter where it is when you are selling luxury goods. And of course, we are

688
00:41:27,186 --> 00:41:30,890
very careful with our carbon emissions, et cetera, et cetera. But at the same

689
00:41:30,930 --> 00:41:34,726
time, it doesn't replace the fact that a beautiful wine

690
00:41:34,758 --> 00:41:38,134
in a glass packaging with a cork, which is, by the way, if you talk

691
00:41:38,142 --> 00:41:41,894
about sustainability, cork is the most sustainable product there is,

692
00:41:42,062 --> 00:41:45,782
then actually it is something that will be there for quite a long time. And

693
00:41:45,806 --> 00:41:49,238
I don't think the alternative packaging is as exciting for every market.

694
00:41:49,374 --> 00:41:52,742
People always assume that the trends that are applicable in the US and UK are

695
00:41:52,766 --> 00:41:55,782
somehow applicable here in Asia, and we just don't see that. We don't see the

696
00:41:55,806 --> 00:41:59,532
note the low alcohol Movement being very strong. People are

697
00:41:59,556 --> 00:42:03,132
not drinking as much alcohol in Asia because business is bad. And wine was very

698
00:42:03,156 --> 00:42:06,040
much driven by business and these big, large,

699
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:10,364
I guess, dinners that people were hosting, okay, so that's

700
00:42:10,412 --> 00:42:13,852
toned down and then you don't see the whole cans because wine is associated with

701
00:42:13,876 --> 00:42:17,724
a luxury product in general. Whether it's a $10 wine or a $50

702
00:42:17,812 --> 00:42:21,068
wine here in Asia it's still a luxury Western

703
00:42:21,164 --> 00:42:24,892
consumption. Right. Just as when you go and have a beautiful, I'm not saying

704
00:42:24,916 --> 00:42:28,340
like a Tetley tea, but of course like a high end to our tea coming

705
00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:31,956
from, you know, those type of those experiences is,

706
00:42:32,028 --> 00:42:35,652
is walking into somebody else's beautiful, you know, culture. And now

707
00:42:35,676 --> 00:42:39,012
China's also making their own wine, which is super exciting. But I guess my point

708
00:42:39,036 --> 00:42:42,740
is it's a different way of consumption and so innovation that applies in the US

709
00:42:42,780 --> 00:42:46,340
and UK is not necessarily the same innovation here. Now where we do see Asia

710
00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:50,180
really innovating comes down to the marketing, the experiences,

711
00:42:50,260 --> 00:42:54,100
the route to market. As we said, seamless E commerce, integrating

712
00:42:54,180 --> 00:42:57,382
livestream, you know, we don't have so many regulars of I guess

713
00:42:57,446 --> 00:43:01,174
regulations that is, sorry where you can't livestream or have to be

714
00:43:01,182 --> 00:43:04,918
careful about, you know, talking about wine on a live stream. You could do that

715
00:43:04,974 --> 00:43:08,102
so freely and then sell the product and put it right into your cart as

716
00:43:08,126 --> 00:43:11,542
you're watching. So that for me is innovations. How do we make that purchasing

717
00:43:11,686 --> 00:43:15,462
even more seamless for everybody? Why are we solving problems when you

718
00:43:15,486 --> 00:43:18,918
can't even ship to another state? You know, I feel like that's something that we've

719
00:43:18,934 --> 00:43:22,050
got to change probably before we, we jump into

720
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,712
claiming we need to change it all about wine. I mean wine has been there,

721
00:43:25,736 --> 00:43:29,552
it's always gone through phases, it's been quite resilient. But I feel

722
00:43:29,576 --> 00:43:33,152
like we're always trying to talk about innovation and I

723
00:43:33,176 --> 00:43:36,912
personally just don't see it like the idea that NFTs, I feel that came

724
00:43:36,936 --> 00:43:40,320
in, that came out. Digitalization, I know is still another big

725
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,160
topic, but I just don't see a one size fits all. There's just

726
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,888
options to that. So I guess that was one question

727
00:43:47,944 --> 00:43:51,650
and then if I understood Paul, your other question was I guess, I guess

728
00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:55,282
fine wines and really how is that working with fine wines? And the

729
00:43:55,306 --> 00:43:58,658
idea is we need to, as you mentioned, it's about the human connection and that's

730
00:43:58,674 --> 00:44:02,466
where the fine wines really makes a difference in my view to lifestyle, Lifestyle

731
00:44:02,498 --> 00:44:06,050
you can market to all fine wine is understanding your consumer and

732
00:44:06,090 --> 00:44:09,890
catering personalization connection forging

733
00:44:09,970 --> 00:44:13,810
real, real connections in the industry. And of course, understanding the product

734
00:44:13,930 --> 00:44:17,742
and what it can and the qualities of it better than anybody could to be

735
00:44:17,766 --> 00:44:21,566
able to be a point of differentiation, understanding

736
00:44:21,598 --> 00:44:25,006
the consumer. Wow, what a novel idea. Yeah,

737
00:44:25,198 --> 00:44:29,010
well, that's true. I'm not being sarcastic

738
00:44:29,350 --> 00:44:33,022
because I brought it up the other day on a post. You say

739
00:44:33,046 --> 00:44:36,846
that actually, Paul, but I would really, really love to know how many

740
00:44:36,918 --> 00:44:40,702
journalists and how many CEOs of a company and I

741
00:44:40,726 --> 00:44:44,408
think our business, you know, we do it quite well, but not everybody is out

742
00:44:44,464 --> 00:44:48,152
shaking hands and meeting customers and asking

743
00:44:48,296 --> 00:44:52,056
the questions. Sometimes I think you see a lot of these research or insights

744
00:44:52,088 --> 00:44:55,928
and they're coming from people behind a computer who just don't actually do

745
00:44:55,984 --> 00:44:59,832
business. And so there's always what you

746
00:44:59,856 --> 00:45:03,384
read and there's always what actually the consumer is how their purchasing

747
00:45:03,432 --> 00:45:06,840
habits actually really change. So I like to hear people like

748
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,408
yourself who actually deal with the consumer and have

749
00:45:10,544 --> 00:45:14,374
had those conversations and then I'll take some insights, but not sitting

750
00:45:14,422 --> 00:45:17,530
behind in an office. Bravo.

751
00:45:18,270 --> 00:45:21,702
Because, you know, I spent my life selling stuff and I'm talking about

752
00:45:21,726 --> 00:45:25,414
copiers and all kinds of things, and it always was about

753
00:45:25,502 --> 00:45:29,078
your client. What your client may have a need that they

754
00:45:29,134 --> 00:45:32,374
explain to you. There might be an explicit need to what they're trying to solve,

755
00:45:32,422 --> 00:45:35,798
whether it's wine or whatever. And there might be an implied need where that they're

756
00:45:35,814 --> 00:45:38,854
not sure that they have a problem yet. And you have to help them understand,

757
00:45:38,942 --> 00:45:42,652
you know, where they're at and maybe satisfy the need that you created for

758
00:45:42,676 --> 00:45:45,440
them. But it all starts with understanding

759
00:45:45,860 --> 00:45:49,692
them and then solving their problem with what you

760
00:45:49,716 --> 00:45:53,452
have in your quiver to do it. And it doesn't always work, but that's really

761
00:45:53,476 --> 00:45:57,164
what it is and it's, it's universal. It happens online

762
00:45:57,252 --> 00:46:01,036
every day. You. I deliver a message to you that you have no interest in

763
00:46:01,188 --> 00:46:04,680
my product because I'm not doing anything for you when it comes to your needs

764
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:08,402
or that my social networking is, is, makes you

765
00:46:08,426 --> 00:46:12,002
realize maybe I do have a need and then we solve that need together. But

766
00:46:12,026 --> 00:46:15,650
that's what it is. It's always been that and wine's always been consumer

767
00:46:15,730 --> 00:46:19,570
driven. But you have, you're. You have a unique set of brands. In

768
00:46:19,610 --> 00:46:23,090
fact, just this morning I made a reservation at Le Le

769
00:46:23,130 --> 00:46:26,786
Tuperi for, for dinner when we're there,

770
00:46:26,938 --> 00:46:30,322
which is one of the LVMH restaurants in the

771
00:46:30,346 --> 00:46:33,852
mall, in the shopping mall. So I'm excited for that.

772
00:46:34,036 --> 00:46:36,524
But the other day, I think, I don't know if I told you this the

773
00:46:36,532 --> 00:46:40,284
other day when we spoke, but my son in law asked the question. I was

774
00:46:40,372 --> 00:46:44,124
pouring a bottle of Cheval Blanc for my wife's birthday and

775
00:46:44,212 --> 00:46:48,000
we had an incredible, incredible day at Cheval Blanc,

776
00:46:48,820 --> 00:46:52,540
having lunch in the vineyard with Monsieur Clouet, et cetera. I think I discussed that.

777
00:46:52,660 --> 00:46:56,428
But he said to me, is a thousand dollar bottle of wine really

778
00:46:56,484 --> 00:46:59,644
50 times better than a 20 or 20 times better than a $50 bottle of

779
00:46:59,652 --> 00:47:03,460
wine? And I say, yeah, you know, you'd. Have a. Yeah, what's your take?

780
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,848
Obviously a very good 50 bottle of wine is very good. And

781
00:47:07,904 --> 00:47:11,256
99.9% of the people would not know the difference, and maybe I wouldn't

782
00:47:11,288 --> 00:47:14,984
either. But I said, you just had a bottle of

783
00:47:14,992 --> 00:47:18,760
Cheval Blanc regardless. And so that's, that is

784
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,456
the difference between a properly positioned brand and you're right, there's

785
00:47:22,488 --> 00:47:26,280
a, there's a level of guarantee to what you're tasting and

786
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,948
what you're drinking. But, but it's the story. I mean, it's really

787
00:47:30,004 --> 00:47:33,852
the story. And that's why I find your podcast interesting, because

788
00:47:33,876 --> 00:47:37,708
you're trying to tell the stories and we are storytellers

789
00:47:37,724 --> 00:47:40,920
in this industry. You brought up something interesting. Two things.

790
00:47:41,620 --> 00:47:45,324
I do believe that the wine industry, of all industries in the world, is probably

791
00:47:45,372 --> 00:47:49,004
the most prone to sustainability. It's

792
00:47:49,052 --> 00:47:52,560
not the easiest necessarily, but I think it's probably the most logical

793
00:47:52,990 --> 00:47:56,774
natural industry to be sustainable. And somebody put

794
00:47:56,782 --> 00:48:00,534
it the other day, you said a cork is very sustainable. Well, somebody's told

795
00:48:00,542 --> 00:48:04,166
me, well, guess what glass is? It's recycled sand.

796
00:48:04,278 --> 00:48:07,702
I go, well, that's really interesting. Like, I never thought about it that

797
00:48:07,726 --> 00:48:11,510
way, but I do believe that our industry has

798
00:48:11,550 --> 00:48:15,382
the most opportunity to be sustainable. But

799
00:48:15,406 --> 00:48:19,056
then you, you, you talked about the tactile, this

800
00:48:19,128 --> 00:48:22,832
little bit of a tactile presentation of wine where we got

801
00:48:22,856 --> 00:48:26,336
the nice crystal glass,

802
00:48:26,448 --> 00:48:30,208
depending on what you're drinking. And anybody always asks,

803
00:48:30,224 --> 00:48:33,872
is a glass matter? And I said, well, you pour two

804
00:48:33,896 --> 00:48:36,992
wines, one in a nice crystal glass and pour another one in an amber

805
00:48:37,056 --> 00:48:40,672
tumbler and, and drink them and you'll, you'll find the

806
00:48:40,696 --> 00:48:44,522
tactile difference is important. But it

807
00:48:44,546 --> 00:48:48,170
led me to this experiment. I did. You know Jean Charles Boise,

808
00:48:48,250 --> 00:48:51,546
right? The Jean Claude, of course. Yes. I was on his podcast as well. He's

809
00:48:51,578 --> 00:48:55,210
really, what a passionate individual. Yeah. So he

810
00:48:55,250 --> 00:48:59,018
has a collection of glassware from Baccarat and it is

811
00:48:59,154 --> 00:49:02,762
serious stuff. I mean, this stuff is heavy. And yeah, I

812
00:49:02,786 --> 00:49:06,634
had, I had my one ship, my wine shop, but then I had Max Riddell

813
00:49:06,682 --> 00:49:10,330
on the show and he's like, you know, the thinnest

814
00:49:10,410 --> 00:49:13,690
neck and the thinnest bowl and all the, you know, the. And

815
00:49:14,070 --> 00:49:17,902
neither one of those is accurate. Neither one of those is better. I mean

816
00:49:17,926 --> 00:49:21,742
I totally get John Charles. We, we drank together once in

817
00:49:21,766 --> 00:49:25,566
his heavy. They're so heavy and had some

818
00:49:25,638 --> 00:49:28,782
Raymond Cabernet in it. And that's got a

819
00:49:28,806 --> 00:49:32,366
tactile presentation. And then when you have Riedel's

820
00:49:32,398 --> 00:49:36,238
finest crystal, it's a different presentation. But neither one's better than the other.

821
00:49:36,294 --> 00:49:39,980
I thought that is so amazing to me. I just find that fascinating.

822
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,152
Well, we had on the podcast we had Dr. Charles Spence, who

823
00:49:44,176 --> 00:49:47,048
is one of the leading psychologists, Oxford

824
00:49:47,144 --> 00:49:50,552
professor and he actually does consumer insights and

825
00:49:50,656 --> 00:49:54,440
purchasing and understanding why how you can increase your environment

826
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,784
for either food or purchasing wine purchasing

827
00:49:57,832 --> 00:50:01,288
behaviors. Very, very fascinating. One of very

828
00:50:01,344 --> 00:50:04,930
insightful persons. And he did a study on, on

829
00:50:04,970 --> 00:50:08,770
wine and it. Does bottle weight matter? And it, it actually

830
00:50:08,810 --> 00:50:12,322
does. People did link bottle size and weight to quality of the

831
00:50:12,346 --> 00:50:15,986
wine. You saw that very much in China, especially before, let's

832
00:50:16,018 --> 00:50:19,442
say 2015, where or even probably now, but especially

833
00:50:19,546 --> 00:50:23,202
before 2016, we had a lot of OEM. So this was basically

834
00:50:23,266 --> 00:50:26,594
where people would go to Bordeaux and they'd bottle their own wines and bring in

835
00:50:26,602 --> 00:50:29,794
their own chateau. Because you would make much more margin if you could have your

836
00:50:29,802 --> 00:50:33,362
own chateau name on it. And nobody knew or could research that the price was

837
00:50:33,386 --> 00:50:36,816
actually $10, but you're selling it for 80. And

838
00:50:36,968 --> 00:50:40,352
the whole packaging was a beautiful chateau with a French

839
00:50:40,496 --> 00:50:43,744
like name and a very heavy bottle and a cork. And if you could do

840
00:50:43,752 --> 00:50:47,232
that, you could sell especially when people didn't have much understanding of wine, you could

841
00:50:47,256 --> 00:50:50,912
sell for much more expensive in tier 2, tier 3 cities. So, you

842
00:50:50,936 --> 00:50:54,528
know, I do see a lot of people going, you know, like, glass is important

843
00:50:54,584 --> 00:50:58,192
and I do think it is, especially for entry level wines. But when you're at

844
00:50:58,216 --> 00:51:01,984
the higher end, you know, I think packaging is still very traditional

845
00:51:02,032 --> 00:51:05,728
and the consumer who is looking to age wine is still very

846
00:51:05,784 --> 00:51:09,536
much in a traditional packaging. Now it doesn't mean that there's no innovation

847
00:51:09,568 --> 00:51:13,344
with screw caps and that wines under screw cap can't age. You know, I

848
00:51:13,352 --> 00:51:16,768
do think that there's a lot of science to back that up too. But I'm

849
00:51:16,784 --> 00:51:20,400
just saying, you know, the, the experience and willingness to purchase at an expensive

850
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,600
level. I think there has been a lot of research that actually proves otherwise. Despite

851
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,424
the claims that sustainability we should be moving towards plastic bottles

852
00:51:27,472 --> 00:51:31,152
for wine, which I definitely Advocate on a specific level and a specific

853
00:51:31,216 --> 00:51:35,032
consumer. Right. Like there should be choices. Go for it. But

854
00:51:35,056 --> 00:51:38,472
when you are. Obviously, that's just my point of view. No, I agree with that.

855
00:51:38,496 --> 00:51:42,264
I think there's places for all those things. I was an avid

856
00:51:42,312 --> 00:51:46,152
golfer for many, many years, and I used to make me laugh that,

857
00:51:46,256 --> 00:51:50,008
that, well, you could take, you know, this plastic bottle of wine

858
00:51:50,024 --> 00:51:52,568
on the golf course. I'm like, I'm not taking wine on the golf course. Okay.

859
00:51:52,584 --> 00:51:55,860
I'm not taking. I don't drink wine on the golf course.

860
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,210
Beer maybe, but not wine. Anyway, is there, is there an issue

861
00:52:00,250 --> 00:52:03,790
in China with faux wines? You know,

862
00:52:04,570 --> 00:52:08,066
obviously, Rudy here, he was. I don't think he was Chinese, he was Indonesian,

863
00:52:08,098 --> 00:52:11,394
but he was right here down the street. His house where he's making the fake

864
00:52:11,442 --> 00:52:15,042
wine was right here. He was watching you when you were doing your. Your

865
00:52:15,066 --> 00:52:18,898
dinners and wine clubs and was thinking, all right, cool. That's. That's

866
00:52:18,914 --> 00:52:22,674
what I'm going to copy next. You're very close. You know, they would. Are you

867
00:52:22,682 --> 00:52:26,434
the. Yeah. So you are the inspiration. Yeah. Is it a

868
00:52:26,442 --> 00:52:30,110
problem in China? Because, you know, I read that people were

869
00:52:30,970 --> 00:52:34,658
creating fake yellowtail, you know, at 269

870
00:52:34,714 --> 00:52:38,562
a bottle or something. I just thought, wow, what an amazing industry that

871
00:52:38,586 --> 00:52:42,274
is so popular that you would do that. Well, Paul, doesn't it go back to

872
00:52:42,282 --> 00:52:45,874
the whole point at the beginning? Brand is key. And people always underestimate that. They

873
00:52:45,882 --> 00:52:49,682
think, no, no, no, mine is different. I'm not famous yet, but mine is

874
00:52:49,706 --> 00:52:53,426
different. And if you are looking to expand, and I'm not just saying China,

875
00:52:53,498 --> 00:52:56,522
right? Thailand, Indonesia,

876
00:52:56,586 --> 00:53:00,218
Malaysia, all these different countries, brand is key, brand

877
00:53:00,274 --> 00:53:04,074
is paramount. So, you know, getting your name out there is very important. And it

878
00:53:04,082 --> 00:53:07,482
goes back to. Look, if people are going to, I guess,

879
00:53:07,546 --> 00:53:10,750
replicate Rossa Retreat, Yellowtail,

880
00:53:11,250 --> 00:53:15,002
Penfolds, you know, the basic tiers, then I think it

881
00:53:15,026 --> 00:53:18,250
says something about how important brands are. And I think, like, as you mentioned, even

882
00:53:18,290 --> 00:53:21,776
to the lower ends, we don't see as much as it, you know, the wine

883
00:53:21,808 --> 00:53:25,296
industry is down. So the people who were doing that were not necessarily wine lovers.

884
00:53:25,328 --> 00:53:28,944
They were people who are there for money. Right. So once business

885
00:53:29,032 --> 00:53:32,464
goes down, then they're off to something else. You know, it's probably more profitable to

886
00:53:32,472 --> 00:53:35,900
do something else like a fake bag. So people are. In China,

887
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,360
people aren't. For those people who are doing that type of business, they're not here

888
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,464
because they love the wine and they're trying to replicate, you know, yellowtail to get

889
00:53:42,472 --> 00:53:46,304
it to the Mass population. No, it's because they saw a chance to be

890
00:53:46,312 --> 00:53:49,984
able to produce something with people who don't really understand and would purchase because of

891
00:53:49,992 --> 00:53:53,516
the brand and because they could just have the same logo because the name, maybe

892
00:53:53,548 --> 00:53:57,164
people couldn't read English so they just assumed the logo itself was the key. And

893
00:53:57,172 --> 00:54:00,364
then you had a completely different name. And then the other side of it, we

894
00:54:00,372 --> 00:54:03,180
don't see as much of it because there's a lot of crackdowns, but we do

895
00:54:03,220 --> 00:54:06,844
see a lot more. And government right now is really focused on that.

896
00:54:06,932 --> 00:54:10,380
And you'll see even recently there has been a case, USC

897
00:54:10,460 --> 00:54:14,236
137 million. This was out in March and this was

898
00:54:14,308 --> 00:54:17,948
actually out in Zhuhai, which is a tax free

899
00:54:18,004 --> 00:54:21,666
area, I guess Hub, where you could have your products go there and then shipped

900
00:54:21,698 --> 00:54:24,706
into China, but they weren't paying taxes. You saw that as well.

901
00:54:24,778 --> 00:54:28,578
6.7, $6.1 million worth of burgundy

902
00:54:28,594 --> 00:54:32,322
and top wines out in Beijing recently as well. Same

903
00:54:32,346 --> 00:54:35,986
issue where they were doing cross e commerce, cross border. And the,

904
00:54:36,058 --> 00:54:39,602
the reason they're getting crackdowns is to be honest with you, the government,

905
00:54:39,706 --> 00:54:43,394
the government needs money. That's it. They're not paying the taxes on wine and

906
00:54:43,402 --> 00:54:46,882
therefore they're getting stopped. Now these are real wines coming in from Hong Kong, coming

907
00:54:46,906 --> 00:54:50,286
in from different areas, but because they're not paying their tax,

908
00:54:50,438 --> 00:54:53,582
they're getting stopped. So I think that's what you're seeing right now because it's more

909
00:54:53,606 --> 00:54:57,422
about money than it is really about cracking down on products that you

910
00:54:57,446 --> 00:55:01,262
won't, you know, you're not going to be able to get money from. You

911
00:55:01,286 --> 00:55:04,890
said something very funny actually, you didn't even know it.

912
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:10,110
These people, no, that's not good. These

913
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:13,582
people that, that, that fake wine for the money.

914
00:55:13,766 --> 00:55:17,502
Could you pick an industry harder to make

915
00:55:17,526 --> 00:55:21,262
money in than wine to go fake wine and hopefully make some money on

916
00:55:21,286 --> 00:55:24,798
it? Because it's hard enough to make a legit stuff.

917
00:55:24,974 --> 00:55:28,734
It's such a difficult industry. It was funny we

918
00:55:28,742 --> 00:55:32,462
were having. Very true. Yeah, it's tough, it's tough. I, you know,

919
00:55:32,486 --> 00:55:35,150
I never, somebody asked me the other day, why did you get into, you know,

920
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:38,090
manufacturing? And I do have a license to make wine, but

921
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:42,542
man, I just, it's just too hard. And branding, like

922
00:55:42,566 --> 00:55:45,810
you mentioned something important and we'll get off. We're already at an hour.

923
00:55:45,930 --> 00:55:49,650
Branding seems to be like the, the

924
00:55:49,690 --> 00:55:53,458
goal of most wine people. They want their brand to be successful. And you have,

925
00:55:53,514 --> 00:55:57,362
you represent major brands in the industry, but it's also the

926
00:55:57,386 --> 00:56:01,170
Most difficult thing to do in just about any industry and to get any

927
00:56:01,210 --> 00:56:04,850
traction and to get your name out there and particularly in wine. And I tell

928
00:56:04,890 --> 00:56:08,546
people, like, if you think you're going to go into the supermarket in Southern

929
00:56:08,578 --> 00:56:12,178
California and knock off Josh and Apothec Red and these huge

930
00:56:12,274 --> 00:56:15,462
brands, and this is all another subject we could talk an hour about. But try

931
00:56:15,486 --> 00:56:19,078
and get shelf space away from Newman's Own

932
00:56:19,134 --> 00:56:22,742
salad dressing, if you have a salad dressing, or Crest

933
00:56:22,806 --> 00:56:26,134
toothpaste, if you make a toothpaste, you're up against

934
00:56:26,302 --> 00:56:30,022
huge odds to, to get any traction out. And that's one thing

935
00:56:30,046 --> 00:56:33,766
about the wine business, that if you're in it, like

936
00:56:33,838 --> 00:56:36,534
strictly to make money, you're going to try and build that brand and sell it

937
00:56:36,542 --> 00:56:39,926
to one of the big companies. That's all you're trying to do, right? Or

938
00:56:40,078 --> 00:56:43,462
right. You love it, you're romantic about it. You try to make a product that

939
00:56:43,486 --> 00:56:46,982
people will love. Yeah, and there's a. There's always something for

940
00:56:47,006 --> 00:56:50,278
everybody, you know, but the wine industry is very, very

941
00:56:50,334 --> 00:56:53,446
fragmented. What was it? Was it Silicon Valley Bank Report

942
00:56:53,518 --> 00:56:57,206
2023, they mentioned that. Well, they assume that there's around

943
00:56:57,278 --> 00:57:00,550
roughly 200,000 different wine brands in the US you can only

944
00:57:00,590 --> 00:57:04,342
imagine, you know, how fragmented that is. And so what makes you

945
00:57:04,366 --> 00:57:07,670
stand out? And then the other reality is I really true believe that there's some

946
00:57:07,710 --> 00:57:11,526
brands that do inherently well and some that just, just whatever you might throw

947
00:57:11,558 --> 00:57:15,394
at it, the just don't stick. They might have great shoes.

948
00:57:15,442 --> 00:57:19,090
It just does not stick. And I think sometimes I think

949
00:57:19,130 --> 00:57:22,610
there's that chance where, you know, you could really try and it just doesn't work

950
00:57:22,650 --> 00:57:26,162
for some brands. And it could be location, price, packaging, but not even beyond that.

951
00:57:26,186 --> 00:57:29,874
Just somehow I don't know what it is. And then, so I guess the idea

952
00:57:29,922 --> 00:57:33,682
really is maximize what works and grow what works and

953
00:57:33,706 --> 00:57:36,834
focus on what works as opposed to trying to push against the current

954
00:57:36,922 --> 00:57:40,764
sometimes. And that's where I think some companies go wrong. They go

955
00:57:40,772 --> 00:57:44,316
in every direction and then the brands that actually are, are flowing,

956
00:57:44,428 --> 00:57:47,980
they start to devaluate those brands. And they could do that by price

957
00:57:48,020 --> 00:57:51,836
cutting or by getting to the wrong market or by being in the wrong position.

958
00:57:51,988 --> 00:57:55,612
And then they lose that one asset, which is their cash, their cash cow.

959
00:57:55,676 --> 00:57:59,180
Right. That you want to protect that at all costs, in my view. So brand

960
00:57:59,220 --> 00:58:02,348
is important and it's not easy to do. I agree with you. And I don't

961
00:58:02,364 --> 00:58:06,028
have the secret sauce, you know, because every single brand's different. And to be honest,

962
00:58:06,044 --> 00:58:09,542
with you, if you hear the consumer and you see

963
00:58:09,566 --> 00:58:13,158
it, then you maximize it as opposed to trying to push

964
00:58:13,174 --> 00:58:16,662
it. There is no formula. If there's a formula, we, you know, everybody would try

965
00:58:16,686 --> 00:58:20,390
it. They all try to copy the next guy. That was successful. Some, I think

966
00:58:20,430 --> 00:58:24,246
some beverage company was just bought for $2 billion. It's a flavored sparkling

967
00:58:24,278 --> 00:58:27,430
water. Well, how many of those are there? Hundreds, if not

968
00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:31,270
thousands of different ones. And this particular one got traction, and then it just

969
00:58:31,310 --> 00:58:33,922
sold for 2 billion. And I can't tell you how many people have been on

970
00:58:33,946 --> 00:58:37,378
the show that come in here with an idea that really

971
00:58:37,434 --> 00:58:41,106
is clearly directed at trying to get market space,

972
00:58:41,178 --> 00:58:44,866
trying to build a brand, sell it off, and retire. I mean, it's obvious

973
00:58:44,978 --> 00:58:48,802
at that point. Like, one of them even suggested that Lafitte Rasheed is

974
00:58:48,826 --> 00:58:52,274
going to be in a can one day. You know, it's like, well, really? Anyway,

975
00:58:52,402 --> 00:58:55,810
so this is fascinating. We're already in an hour, and I know that

976
00:58:55,850 --> 00:58:59,470
we need to move on. And we. I think we're going to do this again.

977
00:59:01,310 --> 00:59:04,806
Well, dive more into China on the next one, for sure. I know today's topic

978
00:59:04,838 --> 00:59:08,646
was, you know, all different angles, and I loved it because it's true

979
00:59:08,678 --> 00:59:12,374
that you bring a real nice sense of comfort in your podcast,

980
00:59:12,422 --> 00:59:15,894
where it's just so human. And I. I feel like you've nailed it in the

981
00:59:15,902 --> 00:59:19,638
way of connecting. That's why I could see you did sell 17 million bottles.

982
00:59:19,734 --> 00:59:23,462
That's over. Is it 35 years? Is that. Is that the exact number you

983
00:59:23,486 --> 00:59:27,126
mentioned? It was. Right. But then I have to ask you, I know you've.

984
00:59:27,158 --> 00:59:30,278
You've talked about this before. Paul, I hate to. I hate to turn this out

985
00:59:30,334 --> 00:59:34,178
just very. Because I want to know, you know,

986
00:59:34,314 --> 00:59:37,426
when you say that, what is your one tip to selling

987
00:59:37,538 --> 00:59:41,330
wine? That you think if I could walk away today, it would help me

988
00:59:41,370 --> 00:59:44,230
in my. In my career. What's the one tip for selling?

989
00:59:45,370 --> 00:59:48,962
Well, that's a really good question. It

990
00:59:48,986 --> 00:59:52,578
depends. If you're talking about pre digital marketing and post

991
00:59:52,634 --> 00:59:56,482
digital marketing, pre digital marketing, it was all about the

992
00:59:56,506 --> 01:00:00,256
experience. This badge here, I think I showed you last time. Les

993
01:00:00,288 --> 01:00:04,128
Ami Devant was about gathering and talking and

994
01:00:04,184 --> 01:00:07,552
sharing wine. And if you could, as a subscription

995
01:00:07,616 --> 01:00:11,344
model, convey that clubbiness, as my

996
01:00:11,352 --> 01:00:14,896
dad and I used to call it, that camaraderie around what you're

997
01:00:14,928 --> 01:00:18,480
selecting and that. That earnest attempt to find the best stuff you can find and

998
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,128
share with your friends, that camaraderie came

999
01:00:22,184 --> 01:00:25,928
through in our presentation. Digital marketing is a different

1000
01:00:25,984 --> 01:00:29,640
story. Because you only get seconds to tell them your

1001
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:33,160
story. And the loyalty is

1002
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,080
like this big, like no loyalty in on that

1003
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,780
side. And so, and somebody told me this yesterday,

1004
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,336
totally unrelated, and he was talking about my, the podcast. He was also talking

1005
01:00:45,368 --> 01:00:49,192
about this show that I'm trying to produce. And I, and this

1006
01:00:49,216 --> 01:00:52,982
is my advice to wineries. When, when they ask, I tell them to

1007
01:00:53,006 --> 01:00:56,598
stay the course. You know, you just said it. Pick

1008
01:00:56,654 --> 01:01:00,438
that piece that is functioning for you and that works for you and that

1009
01:01:00,494 --> 01:01:04,070
resonates with you and stay the course. Because it's so easy to get

1010
01:01:04,110 --> 01:01:07,286
fragmented and to bring your attention

1011
01:01:07,478 --> 01:01:10,370
that you lose sight of your goals. And

1012
01:01:11,150 --> 01:01:14,662
in the digital marketing world, that means you have to

1013
01:01:14,766 --> 01:01:18,472
test like, you cannot put out anything that's not

1014
01:01:18,496 --> 01:01:22,344
a test against something else. Because as Kevin O'Leary told me

1015
01:01:22,352 --> 01:01:25,960
on the podcast, what works today is not going to work tomorrow. Or what

1016
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,592
your work, what worked yesterday is not going to work today. And so

1017
01:01:29,616 --> 01:01:33,432
that's the evolution of digital marketing.

1018
01:01:33,496 --> 01:01:37,048
It's too fast. And so loyalty

1019
01:01:37,144 --> 01:01:40,900
is this thin when it comes to.

1020
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,474
As it is in the wholesale market too today, but loyal to this thing with

1021
01:01:44,482 --> 01:01:48,058
the consumer. And if you don't resonate with your story with

1022
01:01:48,114 --> 01:01:51,642
them, right, Then you can't afford the

1023
01:01:51,666 --> 01:01:55,322
acquisition cost to find that first customer. Like that's what it comes down to.

1024
01:01:55,506 --> 01:01:58,634
Yeah, I think just one point on that. That. Because what you. I just want

1025
01:01:58,642 --> 01:02:01,866
to stop you because can you actually show me your, your badge again? That's the.

1026
01:02:02,018 --> 01:02:03,990
Remind me what you just mentioned. That was the.

1027
01:02:05,730 --> 01:02:09,466
So is becoming. They have a few, right, like the Bordeaux.

1028
01:02:09,498 --> 01:02:13,162
Then you have some champagne, you have a few groups. And

1029
01:02:13,186 --> 01:02:16,906
I, I think that I'm seeing that more and more in Asia. Yeah, it's

1030
01:02:16,938 --> 01:02:20,110
experiential. I'm seeing that. All that experiential innovation.

1031
01:02:20,770 --> 01:02:24,490
I go to Chateau. Right, but

1032
01:02:24,530 --> 01:02:27,754
exactly what you mentioned. You said that people want to feel part of a group.

1033
01:02:27,842 --> 01:02:30,202
You know, why do you learn so much about wine? So that when you're here

1034
01:02:30,226 --> 01:02:33,226
at the dinner table, you're the one who's the expert. You bring that in, you're

1035
01:02:33,258 --> 01:02:36,968
part of that, that niche. I think that, you know,

1036
01:02:37,024 --> 01:02:40,584
that's interesting what you just mentioned there is getting people in, in this kind

1037
01:02:40,592 --> 01:02:44,392
of exclusive round and making them, you know,

1038
01:02:44,416 --> 01:02:48,040
to be honest, feel special. Right. Isn't that why we're all here in general in

1039
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,848
life? Right? You want to feel, feel connected and.

1040
01:02:51,904 --> 01:02:55,672
You have, you have brands that can do that. With

1041
01:02:55,696 --> 01:02:59,300
the Florence Cathayard, you know, she's like,

1042
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:03,544
she was very forthwith with where she's at. And, you know, the winery

1043
01:03:03,592 --> 01:03:07,366
in Napa is struggling. It's not, it doesn't do that great. They worked

1044
01:03:07,398 --> 01:03:10,902
very hard to do. You're talking about a accomplished woman who

1045
01:03:10,926 --> 01:03:14,678
was, you know, French ski team and who, you know, revitalized

1046
01:03:14,774 --> 01:03:18,342
Chateau Smith Lafitte. You know, she was very

1047
01:03:18,366 --> 01:03:21,638
forthcoming and understanding and explaining that. And it does come

1048
01:03:21,694 --> 01:03:25,462
from finding the client, finding the

1049
01:03:25,486 --> 01:03:28,870
customer, finding the, the resonating with

1050
01:03:28,910 --> 01:03:32,716
somebody and making them feel like they're part of the program and they'll

1051
01:03:32,748 --> 01:03:36,412
be with you for life that way. Inglenook, when I was with

1052
01:03:36,436 --> 01:03:39,000
Engelnook over the week, last week, two weeks ago,

1053
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:44,268
that's what the gist of the conversation was, was we

1054
01:03:44,324 --> 01:03:47,964
really exist here on our club

1055
01:03:48,052 --> 01:03:51,820
memberships despite the fact the margins are better because you're

1056
01:03:51,820 --> 01:03:55,000
not going through the wholesale, you know, three tier marketing. But

1057
01:03:55,940 --> 01:03:59,722
that repeat, you don't have to buy that next order. Like, if

1058
01:03:59,746 --> 01:04:03,178
you're on the Internet and you're just pounding it, you've got every single order you've

1059
01:04:03,194 --> 01:04:06,442
got to buy and it costs you money. And many of them are unprofitable once

1060
01:04:06,466 --> 01:04:10,090
you're done processing it. But that next order from

1061
01:04:10,130 --> 01:04:13,722
your loyal customer doesn't cost you anything. You didn't have to buy that

1062
01:04:13,746 --> 01:04:17,162
customer. You have to buy that order. There's no acquisition cost of that order because

1063
01:04:17,186 --> 01:04:21,002
they just bought from you because it's you. And that's, that's the

1064
01:04:21,026 --> 01:04:24,150
key. And I think that's branding in general. But

1065
01:04:25,740 --> 01:04:29,572
that's as much as. I know. That was

1066
01:04:29,596 --> 01:04:33,396
a great answer. It's true. Yeah. Lots

1067
01:04:33,428 --> 01:04:36,980
to think about. Well, we'd love to do it again one day

1068
01:04:37,020 --> 01:04:40,372
and stay in touch. I don't think I'm coming to China

1069
01:04:40,476 --> 01:04:44,180
soon, but if you're ever near the west

1070
01:04:44,220 --> 01:04:48,020
coast, we'd love to tilt the glass with you. Same here.

1071
01:04:48,060 --> 01:04:50,836
Thank you so much, Paul, for all your great questions and of course, the chance

1072
01:04:50,868 --> 01:04:54,640
to discuss wine with you and your listeners. So thank you very much for

1073
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,080
this opportunity. Cheers. Cheers.