She Knows The Consumer. I Want Her On My Team. Meet Jessica Kogan.

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Carson Leno Fallon.

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Now it's wine talks with

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Paul K. Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul

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K. And we are in studio today about to have a conversation with defamed Jessica

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Kogan. Introductions in just a moment. Wine talks, of course, available on I heart radio,

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Pandora, Spotify, wherever you hang out for podcasting. Hey, have a listen to a

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conversation with Rudolph French Taytanger. Yes,

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the famed family Tay tanger. But he has his own brand called

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Freijn Frere. Oh, see, see? Also in French,

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he has a french bloom, which is a dynamic

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brand of non alcoholic sparkling wine from the Champagne region. So I'll

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listen to that, as well as Vito Lafata. My first

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conversation with Vito Lafata in Temecula. He's a

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Sicilian from Long island. So I asked if

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I should be, uh, you know, worried as to how this conversation

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might go. But no. He decided to soiree into the

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wine business in Temecula, which is a southern California wine town. It's a

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fabulous conversation on the philosophy and history of his family

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getting into wine. So listen to that, but not while we're here. We're here

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to catch up with an old friend, Jessica Gogan, who is the CEO of HSP

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Brands, as well as connect the dots digital

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marketing and an old friend. Welcome to the show. Thank you for

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having me. It's good to see you. Good to see you again. Last time we

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saw each other, anyway, it was up in Napa Valley or Sonoma county

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for a conversation about digital marketing. And then

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we spoke a little bit after that, but you moved on from where you were

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at when we spoke connect the dots and found that

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fascinating. A woman owned digital agency that does

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exactly what. What

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exactly do we do? But first, I want to get into what we do.

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I want to first talk about the last time I saw you, which

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was you had just sold your

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business, and so we're both in different places,

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and I want to know how you are doing, and I will tell you everything

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about connect the dots. Well, thanks for asking that

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we're happy on a number of

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fronts, a little bit of freedom. I don't have to worry about

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making sure the packages are out there. We have enough boxes, are the inners and

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saying that the newsletter get printed, is the website

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working? Is the chat bar working? So that relief

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has been quite rewarding. However, the

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time still seems like it's not enough. Producing this podcast

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takes quite a lot of energy. We produce everything ourselves.

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I organize it myself and looking to change that.

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But, yeah, there's a certain amount of

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there's a certain amount of envy because I loved the mix.

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But at the same time, I don't miss the stress. I think I told you

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earlier off camera, often at 05:00 during the week, I

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would go, oh, I take a deep breath, because I knew my staff was going

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home and the events of the day couldn't occur

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past that, just to catch up the next morning at 08:00 and start over

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again. So I don't miss that. But I do miss

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the sort of hustle and bustle of that. Of that industry.

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Right. I mean, you were shipping every day, right? Every day,

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yeah. I mean, what was

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the biggest struggle for you, like, as now that

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you have left? And I mean, aside the missing, the hustle and bustle, but, like,

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what was it that at the end of the. Day, you're just like,

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you know, frankly, if you were to listen in on a

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conversation with Sandra and I, and Sandra being the

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compliance officer, and we were shipping into 42 states and paying the

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taxes, and I think every

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businessman would say this, that it's the workforce, it's that

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it's the unknown part, the human part of our work,

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which you never know what's going to happen. And so we had a couple of

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disability suits against us. We had. We got

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a, we got a bill from Louisiana. Can you imagine this? A year,

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almost a year after we sold, we got a bill from Louisiana for

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$13,000 in pastor taxes, which was

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wrong. But, you know, there's stress in, like, receiving that letter and then

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trying to solve the problem. But I think the human

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factor at the same time that we're very proud that we launched a lot of

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careers in our tenure. We got people on their feet.

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There was a lot of stress when it came to make sure your employees were

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happy and moving the needle for them. Do you think that's a

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California thing? Well, I think there's a general

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issue with labor right now in the country, but yes,

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California does propagate its own issues.

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Look at the dollar 20 an hour minimum wage here.

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I heard an interesting comment from somebody saying that though panera

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was excluded from this because they make fresh bread, which is a

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bizarre trigger, they've also realized

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that they're not paying that wage now, so they're probably going to lose

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employees to the McDonald's of the world that are paying the dollar 20.

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Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. It's

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totally aside from what we're really going to talk about, but I want to talk

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about wage for a moment, which is my

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older daughter, who's in college, is also an EMT.

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And did you know that the starting

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hourly of an EMT is $18.50 an

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hour? Are you serious? $18.

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So 10% less than

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the average flipping burgers. Exactly.

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And these are people who go through some serious

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training at level one to save your

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life. That's amazing. Isn't that? That's a

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problem. It's a real problem. And

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I just was shocked and stunned. That's what AMR, which

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is the largest ambulance response

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privately held company in the US, that's what they pay.

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And they could save a life, right? They could save a life at

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a moment's notice, and they.

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But, you know, if you're flipping a burger, I mean, that's. You know, I

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mean, it's just. It's. It's so hard to

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understand that when you are in your most desperate moment,

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that the service that is being provided to you

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is you are paying people. You're not paying people like a

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living wage who have to get all these expensive certifications

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to save your life. It's just

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fascinating to me because with HSP, our omnichannel events

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company, we pay $25 an hour.

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And that was recently changed because of the

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gig economy reversal of what happened in

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California with the Gavin Newsom bill, which

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essentially forced Instacart Doordash,

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all of the gig economy businesses to convert their

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contract labor force to employees.

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It just. It shows you that legislating a

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problem is not the solution. Like, it doesn't

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work that way. And anytime you do that, it creates a

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new problem, and you have to let the marketplace

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solve itself. And my opinion is in general, and I flipped

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burgers at a beach hut when I was going through high school. And in my

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first year in college, you know, that was the

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stepping stone. I got to work with people. I learned how to cook. I

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still use that training today from Mister Salentino. But

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you wanted to get out. You're like, okay, I'm ready for something new. And that

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was, of course, not a career. You don't flip and fry

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french fries for a career. You use it to move on, like any sous chef

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or line chef or line cook would do in a fancy restaurant.

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They don't want to be a line cook. I'm with you. I mean,

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I always, you know, I have this debate often. You know,

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there's good regulation and then there's just ridiculous

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regulation. And I think we can both agree, in the adult beverage industry, the

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regulation is just sometimes just

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beyond the pale of understanding and

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borders on just, you know, anti competitive,

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everything. Well, I wasn't for years, I wasn't allowed,

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I mean, literally wasn't allowed to go to the

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WSWA meeting, which for the listeners is the

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wholesale. Wholesale spirits and wines of America. I

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had to use a fake card, you know, to get in. Did you?

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Did you? Yeah, I went to a couple of meetings and I had. And, you

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know, a couple of guys knew who I was and they're like, you know, no

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problem. But, you know, you literally, because the wholesales of America,

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the ones that keep the noose around these

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about the state legislatures, about alcohol that

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have controlled all this, all these years, and it was fascinating.

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I felt pretty proud of myself. You're not allowed to come. So

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I actually meant like I was doing something that was causing a problem.

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Yeah, but I agree with you. We were at the prohibition museum in Savannah,

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Georgia a couple weeks ago, and I learned a

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few things. But one of the, one of the things that my friends didn't understand

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is that when you, during prohibition, you could drink,

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you just couldn't produce it commercially and you couldn't sell

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it commercially, but you could make all the wine at home you wanted to and

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have all the parties you wanted to. But the fact that now

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there's 50 versions of prohibition is. And I.

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Do you really think there's a, there's a break, a chink in the wall

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for solving that problem?

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I do think over time it will be, because

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as you know, my area of expertise is digital. And

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we tend to think you and I tend to think of digital in the adult

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beverage industry just as direct to consumer. And

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that is how the wholesalers of America have tried to

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box DTC in. It's just

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that dragon is so much bigger now,

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especially since COVID consumers in this country,

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they engage with information digitally.

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And that change in behavior

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is absolutely going to eventually

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change the dynamics of how

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distribution wholesale work in general. And it's not just

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the supplier shipping direct to consumer. It's way

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bigger than that. It's just way bigger than that. In my mind,

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it seems. I made this

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note, since you are on the tech side of this,

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you probably don't know this, but I did own a software company for years.

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In the early days of database in cold fusion.

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No, Oracle,

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unfortunately, it was not that big. But, you know, we were on the

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streets all over the country selling software. And it

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always seems like, particularly back then, that

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the industry was always in its infancy. In other words, there was something on the

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horizon that was going to make what you're doing obsolete. And that has just

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accelerated even faster. In other words, what you do today is not going to work

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tomorrow, and so on and so on. But I think with the advent

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of digital marketing, AI on the rest of it, that's going to happen even

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faster. And to keep up and try to understand is

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I don't know what the solution is. I've been working on AI right myself

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because I know that it's going to support what I'm doing. And I've been listening

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to all the seminars and all the onboarding seminars I can

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go to to understand it better and how it affects us.

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But certainly in your side of the. World, Paul, you've been doing AI since you

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started direct to consumer. I mean, you've been getting

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data from, I mean, any information that you get

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digitally and that you analyze is some degree of AI,

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whether it's manual or automated. You know, you

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are determining, you are determining

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information based on data. That's the same

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AI. What we're talking about today is

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supercomputing, right? Like is this super supercomputing

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piece, but you've been doing it for, you've been doing

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it for 20 years, AI. I suppose that's a

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viewpoint I could accept that. I mean, we, to a certain

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extent now, machine learning has helped a little bit, understand.

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You know, take some of that, and I wonder what the threat of that is,

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really. You wonder what the, it knows too

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much of what you're trying to do or not do.

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But certainly from, like for instance,

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with the podcast, I take the podcast audio, I shove it into this AI system,

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and it produces these amazing articles, talking points, questions to

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ask. It digs into your history to find out what you've done

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and writes an article for me. Well, that's, I mean, that saves

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me a lot of time and headache and produces more content. Okay, great.

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Now everybody can produce content even faster than they did before.

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So what does that, what does that mean to us as consumers? Are we going

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to receive that much more messaging because it's that much faster and we can produce

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it. We can put it up on LinkedIn or eBay, I mean, LinkedIn

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or Facebook or Instagram or the next

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platform. So

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I think that, so what you just brought up to me is it's like

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such an opportunity to actually build a startup, which is the

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consolidation of that information. So, yes, like everybody is playing

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with AI to the extent that it can write you

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articles, it can take information off spoken word

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and come up with better ways of saying something frozen and,

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or producing social media bytes that are really,

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that help market your brand. But I think

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ultimately, just the volume of

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content and volume of information, it was already overwhelming

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for consumers. It is now triply overwhelming. And eventually we're

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just going to see ways in which that

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information is

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managed better to consumers. And

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those are called influencers right now. But I think it's just something much. Bigger

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than that has to be, because I

238
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can't. The influencer thing just befuddles me. I don't

239
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get it. You know, I think influencers are something that

240
00:14:45,316 --> 00:14:48,892
work very well for that have worked well

241
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for, like, Gen Z. But I think as they,

242
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as they get older, I think that they will move away from that

243
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and see that influencers are a limitation and

244
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not don't really help them actually

245
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see the world. So I just think that everything right

246
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,288
now is in flux. Everything is changing, like, more

247
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than it ever has. AI is really is an

248
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important factor in everything we're doing. But let's be honest,

249
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digital is our future. Digital

250
00:15:23,656 --> 00:15:27,488
is where we are going to be. Does it mean that the in person

251
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chatting and talking and engaging is

252
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not going to. Oh, must be cold over there. It's freezing so

253
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much. So

254
00:15:38,502 --> 00:15:41,974
I'm going to go back early days of Facebook when Chris

255
00:15:42,014 --> 00:15:45,574
Brogan, who I think was one of the geniuses, Gary Vee, was just

256
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starting, and Chris Brogan wrote the book called Trust Agents, which was sort of

257
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the concept of what our job is digitally, which has never changed,

258
00:15:53,014 --> 00:15:56,494
really. But one of the things back in those days was that Facebook

259
00:15:56,654 --> 00:16:00,072
at that time was really a social network. You didn't really

260
00:16:00,238 --> 00:16:03,956
leave Facebook if you're on Facebook to play with your friends and talk and

261
00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:07,628
chat, and everybody that was in your network got your message,

262
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you weren't going to leave and go buy something. That just wasn't the case. And

263
00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:15,132
that's far from the truth. Today. It's almost why you go to Facebook,

264
00:16:15,228 --> 00:16:18,764
besides because you don't get to hear from your friends anymore anyway, and you buy

265
00:16:18,804 --> 00:16:22,292
stuff. And the numbers, I don't think the numbers have changed that much. And maybe

266
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it is a Gen Z thing, but the idea was 80%

267
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of the people that, that were engaging with

268
00:16:29,728 --> 00:16:33,256
ads were influenced by those ads enough to do something. In other

269
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,944
words, they'd rather get a recommendation from their

270
00:16:36,984 --> 00:16:40,600
friend on Facebook or Instagram than to bother going and

271
00:16:40,632 --> 00:16:44,352
research their own purchasing requirements to see what they wanted. They would

272
00:16:44,368 --> 00:16:47,444
just take the influencers now what they call influencers

273
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idea. And I think that's changing a little bit. I think you're

274
00:16:51,632 --> 00:16:54,850
right. This patch here is from my

275
00:16:54,882 --> 00:16:58,450
father's group. Called Les amis Devin, which was Les

276
00:16:58,482 --> 00:17:01,810
amis Devin. Yeah, right. It was a huge countrywide

277
00:17:01,922 --> 00:17:05,722
group, and my dad had a chapter at his wine shop. And

278
00:17:05,778 --> 00:17:09,546
you would dress to the nines, you would go to the meetings. Robert Mondavi

279
00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:13,338
would speak, Dan Balzer would speak, Dan Berger

280
00:17:13,386 --> 00:17:16,778
would speak. And I think that experiential part

281
00:17:16,826 --> 00:17:20,322
of life is coming back. And I think it's because

282
00:17:20,458 --> 00:17:23,034
there's too many messages to solve.

283
00:17:24,494 --> 00:17:28,142
Yes, 100 million%. And first of

284
00:17:28,158 --> 00:17:31,914
all, that identity, that is so beautiful. Like,

285
00:17:32,334 --> 00:17:35,194
that patch is gorgeous. It is absolutely

286
00:17:35,534 --> 00:17:39,070
stunning. That is beautiful artwork. I mean,

287
00:17:39,102 --> 00:17:42,354
it's the gold thread. It's beautiful. But yes,

288
00:17:43,334 --> 00:17:44,554
this is the thing.

289
00:17:46,974 --> 00:17:50,506
We need human connection. We want human connection.

290
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The difference is that digital is how we are going

291
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:57,770
to actually find our way offline, if that makes

292
00:17:57,842 --> 00:18:01,122
any sense. In order for us to find

293
00:18:01,178 --> 00:18:05,002
community, we actually have to find the community online

294
00:18:05,178 --> 00:18:08,858
to get us to the offline. To the offline ramp. Let

295
00:18:08,866 --> 00:18:12,602
me a specific example. You

296
00:18:12,738 --> 00:18:16,050
are online, you are researching,

297
00:18:16,162 --> 00:18:19,686
like, where. Okay, you move to a new city,

298
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:23,558
and you want to find a park to take your dog to. Right?

299
00:18:23,646 --> 00:18:27,342
You don't know where, like, where a great park is. Where do

300
00:18:27,358 --> 00:18:31,110
you find out where to take your dog? To a great park? Tell

301
00:18:31,142 --> 00:18:34,314
me where you would go. Phone book. Okay.

302
00:18:36,254 --> 00:18:39,694
It used to be, Paul, that you would go next door

303
00:18:39,854 --> 00:18:43,566
to the neighbor and introduce yourself and say, hi, I

304
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:47,060
just moved here. Do you. Does anybody in this neighborhood have

305
00:18:47,092 --> 00:18:50,628
dogs? Where do you take your dogs? Right? Or you'd ask the real estate person

306
00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:54,516
or whatever. But today, what people do when

307
00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:57,700
they are searching to find a way

308
00:18:57,812 --> 00:19:01,292
to, I call it the off ramp to

309
00:19:01,468 --> 00:19:04,780
the physical connection, they go

310
00:19:04,852 --> 00:19:08,620
online to find that information and the reality. That's

311
00:19:08,652 --> 00:19:12,238
like a very simplistic example. Take that all

312
00:19:12,326 --> 00:19:15,662
the way to how do I

313
00:19:15,798 --> 00:19:19,334
wash my deck for the summer? How do I make my

314
00:19:19,374 --> 00:19:23,046
deck ready for the summer? Where does a person go? Do

315
00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:26,726
they call a friend? Do they text a friend?

316
00:19:26,910 --> 00:19:30,534
What are they most likely to do? That's a good

317
00:19:30,574 --> 00:19:33,814
question. They are most likely to open a search

318
00:19:33,854 --> 00:19:37,592
tool on their phone and search how do

319
00:19:37,608 --> 00:19:41,360
I clean my deck? What happens in that moment,

320
00:19:41,472 --> 00:19:45,264
right, is they get the information, and then they

321
00:19:45,304 --> 00:19:48,696
find out, like, the subgroups of people who are experts in cleaning their

322
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,672
decks, and then they find out at Home Depot, they can buy

323
00:19:51,728 --> 00:19:55,536
XYZ. And then they find out that there's a group in their neighborhood

324
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,376
that's like, really into, like, celebrating, like, building and

325
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,784
making decks. And that it is like. It is

326
00:20:02,824 --> 00:20:05,364
counterintuitive for people who have grown up

327
00:20:06,524 --> 00:20:10,220
who are 50 and above, but 50 and below. This

328
00:20:10,252 --> 00:20:14,060
is how they make connections

329
00:20:14,172 --> 00:20:17,916
into the physical world. They go online. And

330
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:20,944
so that is, to me, the big

331
00:20:21,284 --> 00:20:25,052
distinguishing factor of change. And so if

332
00:20:25,068 --> 00:20:28,724
we accept that that is the change and that to

333
00:20:28,764 --> 00:20:32,578
reach people, we have to be digitally minded

334
00:20:32,676 --> 00:20:34,634
to bring them to us physically.

335
00:20:36,534 --> 00:20:40,030
I think that's clearly right on. So

336
00:20:40,222 --> 00:20:44,054
here's one of the headwinds that I. In fact, your example's

337
00:20:44,134 --> 00:20:47,982
amazing. Cause I was just at an auction and there's a lamp I want to

338
00:20:48,038 --> 00:20:51,846
purchase and think, and since this will air after Sandra, my wife

339
00:20:51,910 --> 00:20:54,394
can watch it. She'll not know I'm doing this.

340
00:20:56,854 --> 00:21:00,586
Sandra. But it needs to be cleaned.

341
00:21:00,690 --> 00:21:04,394
It's a very nice french piece. And I, I didn't even

342
00:21:04,434 --> 00:21:07,694
leave the building. And I googled how to clean

343
00:21:08,034 --> 00:21:11,802
crystal lamps. You know, crystal in general. It looked like

344
00:21:11,818 --> 00:21:15,122
somebody smoked in the house. It was, had a brown tint to it. So I

345
00:21:15,138 --> 00:21:18,754
agree with that. But here's, here's what, here's the part that I juggle

346
00:21:18,794 --> 00:21:22,466
with and get confused with. And I used to drive me nuts as a

347
00:21:22,490 --> 00:21:26,328
marketeer. The top 20. The top 20 best

348
00:21:26,376 --> 00:21:30,080
microphones, the top 20 best deck cleaners, the top 20 cleaning

349
00:21:30,112 --> 00:21:33,604
for lamps, the top 20. That is. It's a ruse.

350
00:21:34,344 --> 00:21:37,752
That's affiliate marketing that people are paying for. And I used to run these sort

351
00:21:37,768 --> 00:21:41,056
of rants about the idea. And so I did it the other day. I don't

352
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,560
know why I did this, but I. What's the top USB

353
00:21:44,632 --> 00:21:48,364
microphone for podcasting. And it sent me this audio technica thing.

354
00:21:48,784 --> 00:21:52,544
I sent it back in an hour. I put it back on Amazon stream.

355
00:21:52,624 --> 00:21:56,216
It was so bad because when you click on

356
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,872
that best top 20 and you look at the URL and it's a

357
00:21:59,888 --> 00:22:03,720
mile long, that's an affiliate based deal. They

358
00:22:03,752 --> 00:22:07,496
paid for that position, most likely, and are be getting commission, of

359
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,056
course. So how do we get to the organic version of that

360
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,672
response? How do we know that it's legit? That my friend really

361
00:22:14,728 --> 00:22:16,204
recommended that dog park.

362
00:22:19,364 --> 00:22:23,188
So that's really an interesting question. And that's where I feel that there's

363
00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:26,916
a lot of innovation to be had and where a lot

364
00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:29,996
of change can be made. Right. I think everybody

365
00:22:30,060 --> 00:22:33,620
recognizes, whether they know it consciously or unconsciously,

366
00:22:33,732 --> 00:22:37,504
that at some level when you do search

367
00:22:38,564 --> 00:22:41,796
in your browser, that what's being displayed to you is

368
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:44,694
not a

369
00:22:45,834 --> 00:22:46,974
from the heart

370
00:22:48,594 --> 00:22:52,274
recommendation. So it does require, you know, a

371
00:22:52,314 --> 00:22:55,986
deeper level of engagement. I do believe that there's going to be applications out there

372
00:22:56,090 --> 00:22:59,514
that are going to build trust that are going to be

373
00:22:59,634 --> 00:23:03,306
like centers of excellence of information. But I will say,

374
00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:06,414
you know, do you remember Craigslist? Do you remember, like,

375
00:23:07,274 --> 00:23:10,976
do you remember. It's gone, really. Craigslist is still

376
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,280
run. They're owned by eBay. But like, going back to

377
00:23:14,312 --> 00:23:18,056
that, that stage of going to

378
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,600
a place where you are seeing information

379
00:23:21,752 --> 00:23:25,400
that is posted by community. And so I think that

380
00:23:25,432 --> 00:23:28,840
there's, there's, we are right for a moment for

381
00:23:28,952 --> 00:23:32,644
disruption, for community driven applications.

382
00:23:33,504 --> 00:23:36,842
That doesn't mean that digital advertising is going to go, you

383
00:23:36,858 --> 00:23:40,562
know, pear shaped at all. It's absolutely there.

384
00:23:40,698 --> 00:23:43,654
The point is, is that if we understand

385
00:23:43,994 --> 00:23:47,722
that shoppers, customers, people are going, their

386
00:23:47,778 --> 00:23:51,434
first point of engagement is going to be

387
00:23:51,474 --> 00:23:55,274
digital to find information, whether it's to find a microphone

388
00:23:55,354 --> 00:23:59,146
or find friends or date or buy a

389
00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:02,490
car, that it behooves

390
00:24:02,562 --> 00:24:04,384
brands. It behooves

391
00:24:06,084 --> 00:24:09,084
pretty much anybody who's interested in engaging with

392
00:24:09,124 --> 00:24:12,844
customers to offer more than an

393
00:24:12,884 --> 00:24:16,664
article or a recommendation, but an invitation,

394
00:24:17,044 --> 00:24:19,704
an invitation to come and engage

395
00:24:20,084 --> 00:24:23,740
offline. And that's kind of my new, like, to

396
00:24:23,772 --> 00:24:26,544
me, that's the paradigm shift, which is

397
00:24:27,404 --> 00:24:30,912
everybody knows now how to find something,

398
00:24:31,108 --> 00:24:34,184
but they don't know how to connect to something and

399
00:24:34,224 --> 00:24:38,056
connecting. The most meaningful connections are ones that you

400
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,880
can touch and see in front of you. You know, that's a really interesting

401
00:24:41,912 --> 00:24:45,704
thought, is clearly right down what we were just talking

402
00:24:45,744 --> 00:24:49,536
about, which is the Les Amis devant quite type events that used to go

403
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,152
on, but they went on back then. Cause you had no choice, I guess. Humans

404
00:24:53,168 --> 00:24:56,816
are humans. They need the interaction. You can't hole up on your computer

405
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,712
and, and disengage yourself from society because that's not who

406
00:25:00,728 --> 00:25:04,264
we are as humans. Which means

407
00:25:04,304 --> 00:25:07,324
that all this messaging that we get

408
00:25:07,784 --> 00:25:11,368
is diluted more and more with the more AI, with the more

409
00:25:11,416 --> 00:25:15,232
content. Everything's getting diluted and I referenced back in

410
00:25:15,248 --> 00:25:18,656
the day. If I sent, I can highlight

411
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,344
them maybe only 15 years ago,

412
00:25:22,424 --> 00:25:26,108
ten, if I had a really good napa cab that I.

413
00:25:26,156 --> 00:25:29,356
That was a legitimate deal. That was a legitimate overrun,

414
00:25:29,420 --> 00:25:32,716
legitimate inventory stuck in the warehouse, not being able to be

415
00:25:32,740 --> 00:25:36,544
sold. And I put it out there for, let's say, 999.

416
00:25:36,884 --> 00:25:40,144
I had a reasonably high level of confidence. I would sell

417
00:25:40,444 --> 00:25:44,212
10,000 bottles in one email for

418
00:25:44,228 --> 00:25:47,540
a couple of reasons. One, every day they would open every email. Everybody got my

419
00:25:47,572 --> 00:25:51,038
emails because they were, they were, there wasn't any spam back then

420
00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:54,978
and it was a legit deal. If I sent that same

421
00:25:55,026 --> 00:25:58,534
exact offer today with my old company,

422
00:25:58,994 --> 00:26:01,774
maybe I would have sold 510 cases. Maybe

423
00:26:02,234 --> 00:26:05,794
because that's the email sites being

424
00:26:05,834 --> 00:26:09,002
diluted. The messaging I get on my phone is being

425
00:26:09,138 --> 00:26:12,914
harassed. I'm not competing against other wine companies

426
00:26:12,994 --> 00:26:16,418
anymore. I'm competing against Kim Kardashian and all the other

427
00:26:16,466 --> 00:26:20,206
messaging I'm getting. Because you only get so much time. We as humans, we only

428
00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:23,758
have nanoseconds to decide what we're gonna do with that information

429
00:26:23,926 --> 00:26:27,430
and move on. And so I think that has to

430
00:26:27,462 --> 00:26:31,166
break somehow. It will. I think it just has to. Like, this is too

431
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:34,886
much volume. I think Les Amis Devant is

432
00:26:34,910 --> 00:26:38,550
something that should be brought back. Anything that

433
00:26:38,702 --> 00:26:42,274
was something in the past that was about

434
00:26:43,094 --> 00:26:46,744
hosting events, engaging with people, think Tupperware

435
00:26:46,784 --> 00:26:50,048
parties. I mean, there is a

436
00:26:50,096 --> 00:26:53,684
necessity now for this, and

437
00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:58,536
there is a. I mean, just look at travel.

438
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,072
Just travel as an example. Record travel

439
00:27:02,168 --> 00:27:05,592
around this country. Record

440
00:27:05,728 --> 00:27:09,404
attendance to concerts, record

441
00:27:11,204 --> 00:27:14,972
attendance to sports events. There is a

442
00:27:15,028 --> 00:27:18,204
reason for it. The reason

443
00:27:18,324 --> 00:27:22,148
is there is a deep desire

444
00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:26,028
to connect. And so I believe

445
00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,948
that while we all can't own the Oakland A's

446
00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:33,344
or the Giants or be Taylor Swift,

447
00:27:33,924 --> 00:27:37,542
it is that there is a larger message in my mind, which is,

448
00:27:37,708 --> 00:27:41,426
as we see these trends and we see people making these massive

449
00:27:41,490 --> 00:27:45,010
efforts, and at a huge expense, to get out

450
00:27:45,082 --> 00:27:48,434
and touch and talk, we, as

451
00:27:48,474 --> 00:27:52,242
brands that are digitally enabled, must find

452
00:27:52,298 --> 00:27:55,974
that connection with customers in the offline world. And

453
00:27:56,354 --> 00:27:59,946
they're listening to you online. They hear you. They

454
00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:02,654
just want you to.

455
00:28:04,294 --> 00:28:07,830
To meet with them, to offer them an opportunity to connect

456
00:28:07,902 --> 00:28:11,126
offline. That's what I believe. You know, it's an interesting thought,

457
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:13,754
because this company grew

458
00:28:15,134 --> 00:28:18,926
from 1984 to 2007. And in

459
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:22,614
2007, I stopped them because the acquisition cost got out of

460
00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:25,886
reach. But for those 23

461
00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:28,994
years, the sole methodology,

462
00:28:29,604 --> 00:28:33,036
successful methodology, to acquire customers was a handshake at a

463
00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:36,404
show. And we did. So we weren't

464
00:28:36,444 --> 00:28:40,004
testing graphics or messaging online. We weren't

465
00:28:40,044 --> 00:28:43,580
testing the database of people we were

466
00:28:43,612 --> 00:28:47,144
sending to. We weren't testing the AI, we weren't testing anything. We were testing

467
00:28:47,564 --> 00:28:50,924
the crowd that would show up at either a boat

468
00:28:50,964 --> 00:28:54,756
show or a gun show or a home improvement show, which was

469
00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:58,544
very successful, or the wine tasting pavilion at the La

470
00:28:58,584 --> 00:29:02,376
County Fair. A million and a half people walk through the last year

471
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,312
in 1996, you know, I shouldn't say these dates, because I

472
00:29:06,328 --> 00:29:09,888
sound like an old guy, but. I will

473
00:29:09,936 --> 00:29:13,488
tell you, this is so they're going

474
00:29:13,576 --> 00:29:16,800
back, and they're going back in record

475
00:29:16,872 --> 00:29:20,432
numbers, and they're finding

476
00:29:20,488 --> 00:29:24,196
out. Is that part of the collective? It is so part of the collective

477
00:29:24,260 --> 00:29:27,740
is understanding the intersection of digital and

478
00:29:27,772 --> 00:29:31,264
physical, right. And taking that information

479
00:29:31,964 --> 00:29:35,468
to an industry that really for thousands of

480
00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:38,828
years lived offline in many ways and

481
00:29:38,876 --> 00:29:42,476
connected. Part of adult beverage and wine in

482
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:46,132
general is about the relationships you build in the physical world.

483
00:29:46,308 --> 00:29:49,900
That moment that you have at the table where you're, you know,

484
00:29:50,052 --> 00:29:53,516
talking about family, eating a beautiful food, you know, eating some

485
00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:56,944
beautiful food and, and just having this like, very

486
00:29:58,044 --> 00:30:01,572
emotional moment. In many ways, um, it is very

487
00:30:01,628 --> 00:30:04,748
difficult to express that emotion

488
00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:08,444
digitally. It is impossible.

489
00:30:08,604 --> 00:30:11,932
I mean, it, it can be done

490
00:30:12,028 --> 00:30:15,812
in a didactic. Right, it can be done in

491
00:30:15,828 --> 00:30:19,260
a video like all of your podcasts. Help us

492
00:30:19,292 --> 00:30:22,876
understand, help us connect more to a

493
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:26,148
product, to a wine, to the winemaker, their thinking, their

494
00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:29,884
intentions. But there is nothing like sitting

495
00:30:29,924 --> 00:30:33,652
around a table and talking about wine. There is

496
00:30:33,708 --> 00:30:37,224
nothing like going to an event where

497
00:30:37,564 --> 00:30:40,972
you are around other people who have the same

498
00:30:41,068 --> 00:30:44,446
interests and affinity as you around wine

499
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:48,190
or around just celebration. And

500
00:30:48,222 --> 00:30:51,514
so it really is about taking.

501
00:30:52,734 --> 00:30:56,118
Digital has uncovered this incredible

502
00:30:56,286 --> 00:30:59,742
opportunity for us to connect with

503
00:30:59,798 --> 00:31:03,622
customers and shoppers in a way that we never have in

504
00:31:03,638 --> 00:31:07,394
terms of getting their attention, in terms of like, hey, look at me.

505
00:31:08,154 --> 00:31:11,770
But the finish of that, which we

506
00:31:11,802 --> 00:31:15,546
thought was all digital acquisition, digital, you know, and it is, there

507
00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:18,514
is a portion of that, you know, which is their customers who are just going

508
00:31:18,514 --> 00:31:22,250
to buy online. They don't want to have a relationship offline. But

509
00:31:22,322 --> 00:31:25,610
the majority now we see they want relationships

510
00:31:25,642 --> 00:31:29,490
offline, but it needs to be linked to

511
00:31:29,522 --> 00:31:33,286
what they learn online. So

512
00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:37,062
there's a direct. Well, yeah, that's where you, like you're saying is, you said earlier,

513
00:31:37,118 --> 00:31:39,750
you go, you go there first. I went there first to see how to clean

514
00:31:39,782 --> 00:31:42,714
this Lalik lamp. Oh, I love that. Eventually

515
00:31:44,014 --> 00:31:47,754
some of that stuff is great, but eventually it's that connection.

516
00:31:48,054 --> 00:31:51,262
It reminds me of when I shifted out of that handshake

517
00:31:51,318 --> 00:31:55,166
sale. I'm gonna tell you, my acquisition costs, you'll love this. In

518
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:58,194
1996, at the La county fair was $9.

519
00:31:59,674 --> 00:32:03,346
I got 1000 customers in 20 days for $9 a

520
00:32:03,370 --> 00:32:07,146
person. I believe you. I got that money back in the first shipment, right? Yeah,

521
00:32:07,290 --> 00:32:10,162
but that climbed to 150 by the time I was done in

522
00:32:10,178 --> 00:32:13,882
2007. Yeah, but in order to replace

523
00:32:13,938 --> 00:32:17,706
that, what I thought was that connection, because that handshake means so much.

524
00:32:17,730 --> 00:32:21,002
It still does. You can zoom all you want with somebody. This is an example

525
00:32:21,018 --> 00:32:23,694
of what you're saying. But then when you meet them,

526
00:32:25,334 --> 00:32:29,174
it's a different relationship. It changed. Like I was, I was

527
00:32:29,254 --> 00:32:32,350
entertaining this woman down in Laguna beach who

528
00:32:32,462 --> 00:32:35,874
manages some stuff for me down there, I'd never met her.

529
00:32:36,214 --> 00:32:39,870
It was all online, it was all emails. And I was telling my

530
00:32:39,902 --> 00:32:43,750
secretary, I think maybe we're gonna change. Well, I finally went down there

531
00:32:43,822 --> 00:32:46,622
last week to meet her and I came back. She says, what do you wanna

532
00:32:46,638 --> 00:32:50,078
do? I said, I'm not gonna change. She's a nice woman and we had a

533
00:32:50,086 --> 00:32:53,804
great conversation. She knows what she's talking about. And so that relationship

534
00:32:53,844 --> 00:32:57,388
was established because we met each other. But when I, when I stopped doing

535
00:32:57,436 --> 00:33:00,980
the direct mail stuff and got in mostly

536
00:33:01,012 --> 00:33:04,596
digital, I tried to replace that relationship with a

537
00:33:04,620 --> 00:33:08,332
video of me sitting at the desk and talking, you know, sincerely and

538
00:33:08,348 --> 00:33:11,420
honestly. And every person that signed up for the club or got a gift got

539
00:33:11,452 --> 00:33:14,804
this email from me with a video of them, of me talking to them

540
00:33:14,844 --> 00:33:18,420
about, you know, what was going to happen, thinking that would replace the

541
00:33:18,452 --> 00:33:21,272
relationship. But it didn't really. I mean, it did in the beginning, but not the

542
00:33:21,288 --> 00:33:24,856
end. In the beginning. I don't think you should forget in the beginning. It

543
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,664
did. It did when we were all first, like, learning

544
00:33:28,824 --> 00:33:32,624
about the Internet and all of these applications and software were making

545
00:33:32,664 --> 00:33:36,080
it easier for us to connect. But I think what we have

546
00:33:36,112 --> 00:33:39,584
learned over, especially over the last four years, is that

547
00:33:39,744 --> 00:33:42,936
especially over the last four years, is that the physical

548
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,678
connection is the heart of who we are as humans.

549
00:33:46,816 --> 00:33:50,506
And to be an amazing digital marketer, you have to understand the

550
00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:54,346
physical connection. To connect the dots. Then you're

551
00:33:54,370 --> 00:33:57,978
not just in the alcohol sector, you're in all sectors. We are.

552
00:33:58,026 --> 00:34:00,774
Well, in beverage, and beverage is our focus.

553
00:34:01,354 --> 00:34:04,854
So we'll do kind of

554
00:34:06,594 --> 00:34:10,210
our interest really is in the wellness space, and we're

555
00:34:10,242 --> 00:34:13,353
looking at different products that

556
00:34:13,653 --> 00:34:16,633
really are centrally themed around,

557
00:34:18,213 --> 00:34:21,717
you know, just being added value to your life. Great

558
00:34:21,765 --> 00:34:25,589
tasting, energetic, natural

559
00:34:25,621 --> 00:34:29,461
ingredients. Because we just see really, I

560
00:34:29,477 --> 00:34:33,013
mean, just as women, and you asked like, it's an all female

561
00:34:33,053 --> 00:34:36,781
collective. We're all women. What makes us different? Well, we, I

562
00:34:36,797 --> 00:34:40,379
get on your website. We, I mean, as, listen,

563
00:34:40,501 --> 00:34:44,103
we make the majority of the purchasing decisions in this country, as you well

564
00:34:44,143 --> 00:34:47,455
know. I'm sure Sandra would agree with me on

565
00:34:47,479 --> 00:34:50,919
this. We like to stop our. I'm not allowed to make those

566
00:34:50,951 --> 00:34:54,603
decisions. And we have,

567
00:34:54,943 --> 00:34:57,843
our share of wallet is growing, and

568
00:34:58,863 --> 00:35:02,703
women have a desire and an interest

569
00:35:02,863 --> 00:35:06,556
in wellness that is unique. And it is a

570
00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:10,300
different point of view than I think perhaps maybe

571
00:35:10,332 --> 00:35:13,740
the other sex brings to the table. And so I think

572
00:35:13,772 --> 00:35:17,596
that our perspective is that we,

573
00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:21,196
as women, understand at a very

574
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:25,076
base level what women are looking for in

575
00:35:25,140 --> 00:35:28,932
specific beverage drinks outside of adult beverage. Now go into

576
00:35:28,988 --> 00:35:32,664
adult beverage, into wine specifically, where we have a lot of experience.

577
00:35:34,114 --> 00:35:37,562
We understand intimately what women are looking

578
00:35:37,618 --> 00:35:40,850
for in wine. Sometimes it aligns

579
00:35:40,922 --> 00:35:44,154
with the male cohort and

580
00:35:44,194 --> 00:35:47,494
sometimes it does not. But in general,

581
00:35:48,274 --> 00:35:51,586
women are looking for products that

582
00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:55,434
they can believe in and that they feel connected

583
00:35:55,514 --> 00:35:59,350
to. That's really, like,

584
00:35:59,382 --> 00:36:03,150
the bottom line. They're not. They don't explore as much as a male

585
00:36:03,182 --> 00:36:06,678
cohort in wine, which, you know, I know you know this very

586
00:36:06,726 --> 00:36:10,526
well. And it's not because they lack

587
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:14,302
the confidence, which has always been what everyone in wine has said, that

588
00:36:14,318 --> 00:36:18,086
women just don't have the confidence in, you know, trying all kinds of wines. It's

589
00:36:18,110 --> 00:36:21,622
not really that. It really is. They. They

590
00:36:21,678 --> 00:36:25,154
tend to have a very. I find women have

591
00:36:26,554 --> 00:36:28,134
palates that are

592
00:36:29,714 --> 00:36:33,266
softer than male palettes, and they look

593
00:36:33,330 --> 00:36:36,482
for wines that have a specific profile.

594
00:36:36,658 --> 00:36:40,354
And when they find something they like, they just stick

595
00:36:40,394 --> 00:36:43,134
with it. It's just it. No question.

596
00:36:44,314 --> 00:36:48,146
I can't tell you how many times I've tried to stump Sandra with a

597
00:36:48,170 --> 00:36:52,010
syrah of some form, whether it's australian, domestic

598
00:36:52,042 --> 00:36:55,074
or french. At every time

599
00:36:55,974 --> 00:36:58,862
she stops me, she goes, what is this? I go, oh, my God. How did

600
00:36:58,878 --> 00:37:02,646
you figure that out? It wasn't that she knew it was Syrah, but she

601
00:37:02,670 --> 00:37:06,150
knew that she didn't like it or it wasn't the profile she was looking

602
00:37:06,182 --> 00:37:09,750
for. I mean, she's a bored over idol girl all the way, but is that

603
00:37:09,822 --> 00:37:13,622
so connect the dots sort of. Was that spawned at the water cooler at

604
00:37:13,638 --> 00:37:17,286
VWE amongst the women there?

605
00:37:17,470 --> 00:37:21,320
We have this conversation. It wasn't. We

606
00:37:21,512 --> 00:37:24,824
always had ongoing, I mean, being Terry Wheatley,

607
00:37:24,864 --> 00:37:27,964
who's the founder and

608
00:37:28,584 --> 00:37:32,320
the general partner of camp the dots has been in the industry for over

609
00:37:32,352 --> 00:37:35,484
40 years. And working with her,

610
00:37:36,184 --> 00:37:39,872
so much of my work was inspired by. She would always ask me

611
00:37:39,888 --> 00:37:43,480
to think deeper, you know, what is it like as a marketer?

612
00:37:43,592 --> 00:37:47,256
How do I reach out to customers? How do I engage with them? How do

613
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,984
I, you know, what is it that is going to make a difference? What?

614
00:37:51,024 --> 00:37:54,784
What makes a difference? When I talk to a customer, and so many times

615
00:37:54,824 --> 00:37:58,520
we talk about segmentation, we talk about, you know, we would

616
00:37:58,552 --> 00:38:02,216
do like, you know, just, we just would

617
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:05,984
really talk a lot. And we care very much about what

618
00:38:06,024 --> 00:38:09,808
our customers like. And so we talk

619
00:38:09,856 --> 00:38:13,576
about it a lot. And then, you know, over time, we're just like, you

620
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,344
know, it would be so nice if we could make our own

621
00:38:17,384 --> 00:38:20,880
brands and sell it to the customers that we

622
00:38:21,032 --> 00:38:24,848
know so well. And it would just. We just kind of throw it out there.

623
00:38:24,976 --> 00:38:28,328
And it never. We never really took action

624
00:38:28,496 --> 00:38:32,256
until we like it. Just. I. We all just kind

625
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,084
of decided to leave at the same time. And

626
00:38:35,904 --> 00:38:39,624
Terry, you know, just took some time to

627
00:38:39,664 --> 00:38:43,176
think about what she wanted to do. Jenna, who is one of the

628
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,324
partners, who's a vp of marketing, bwe

629
00:38:46,704 --> 00:38:50,544
just decided she just needed a break. And I was busy with

630
00:38:50,704 --> 00:38:54,256
my omnichannel events company that has been around for quite a few

631
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,976
years and which has been growing very in a

632
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,808
crazy way, but also just thinking, I still

633
00:39:01,856 --> 00:39:05,400
want to stay. I love e commerce. I

634
00:39:05,432 --> 00:39:08,956
love digital. I'm a software geek. I am a nerd

635
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,820
at the highest level when it comes to tech. You know, I'm

636
00:39:12,852 --> 00:39:16,604
a tech person first. The wine in adult bed is

637
00:39:16,644 --> 00:39:20,476
just like my medium in many ways. And Terry

638
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:24,024
just reached out to us, and she's like, I'm thinking about starting this company.

639
00:39:25,124 --> 00:39:27,664
I want it to be female focused,

640
00:39:28,284 --> 00:39:31,284
and I wanted to have two

641
00:39:31,324 --> 00:39:34,728
parts. The first is an advisory where we

642
00:39:34,916 --> 00:39:38,160
only pick clients that we want to work with, not clients that we're

643
00:39:38,192 --> 00:39:41,696
pitching, clients who know us from the

644
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:45,264
industry, and that we can really help. And the other part is where

645
00:39:45,304 --> 00:39:49,080
we do innovation and development, product development, and

646
00:39:49,112 --> 00:39:52,456
we bring products to market on our own. And it was

647
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,048
just. That's a

648
00:39:56,096 --> 00:39:59,616
huge palette of things to tackle, and

649
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,214
I want to have a conversation with you offline about it. Young girl who started

650
00:40:03,254 --> 00:40:06,234
a product here. She's launching it this next week,

651
00:40:07,214 --> 00:40:10,514
completely female, based in its approach to the marketplace.

652
00:40:10,854 --> 00:40:14,582
I'm really proud of her. She's 19, and what she's been able to produce, the

653
00:40:14,598 --> 00:40:18,446
part that she doesn't understand is, once I've got this product and it

654
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:21,126
looks good and it tastes good and all that, but, man, I got to find

655
00:40:21,150 --> 00:40:23,714
these people to buy it. You said something really important

656
00:40:25,734 --> 00:40:29,034
about this experiential part of this. I think this is

657
00:40:29,624 --> 00:40:33,320
what I've hung my hat on the last few years. When. When Groupon started and

658
00:40:33,352 --> 00:40:36,204
people were looking for deal, that's when my. My direct mail

659
00:40:36,584 --> 00:40:39,872
results, actually, the direct mail

660
00:40:39,968 --> 00:40:43,784
response rate maintained itself to a level

661
00:40:43,824 --> 00:40:47,488
that if the tenure of the customer had been what it was years

662
00:40:47,536 --> 00:40:50,872
past, we would have done great. But the Groupon

663
00:40:50,928 --> 00:40:54,560
culture had created these bargain hunters and coupon redeemers

664
00:40:54,592 --> 00:40:58,142
that, you know, caused our lifetime value to plummet, and so we

665
00:40:58,158 --> 00:41:01,878
stopped doing those, and you had to go find something new. I found this

666
00:41:01,966 --> 00:41:05,646
in the digital side, too, and I think your

667
00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:08,834
events company is what's going to change things.

668
00:41:09,694 --> 00:41:13,434
By the way, I did trademark les, Amy Devant, again, I own the trademark,

669
00:41:14,254 --> 00:41:18,006
and I had ambitions of bringing it back on behalf

670
00:41:18,030 --> 00:41:21,530
of my father. The crest is gorgeous. It's

671
00:41:21,562 --> 00:41:25,282
gorgeous. But what I found early on with the. And

672
00:41:25,298 --> 00:41:28,338
you're talking about being a digital geek, and we look at the numbers and we

673
00:41:28,346 --> 00:41:30,642
look at the response rates, and we look at the lifetime value, and we look

674
00:41:30,658 --> 00:41:33,802
at the metrics, we look at the, you know, the conversion rate, and we look

675
00:41:33,818 --> 00:41:36,626
at the, you know, how long the bounce rate and all those things that come

676
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:40,094
along with digital marketing. And what I found,

677
00:41:40,474 --> 00:41:44,010
and I think that connect the dots is fighting. This

678
00:41:44,162 --> 00:41:47,834
is a digital marketeer, a consultant

679
00:41:47,874 --> 00:41:51,722
can be successful by moving the needle, let's say a point.

680
00:41:51,778 --> 00:41:55,250
I don't care what the metric is. They move the point. They move to .2

681
00:41:55,282 --> 00:41:58,842
points, five points. And that maybe that resulted in an extra

682
00:41:58,898 --> 00:42:02,666
$10,000 in sales for your company because. But

683
00:42:02,690 --> 00:42:06,410
they moved it. They were successful in getting better response from whatever method

684
00:42:06,442 --> 00:42:09,978
you were using. Yeah, but unfortunately, it cost you $20,000

685
00:42:10,106 --> 00:42:13,586
to get that ten. And so the, the digital

686
00:42:13,650 --> 00:42:17,342
consultant can say, yeah, we were successful. I don't know what you're complaining about.

687
00:42:17,498 --> 00:42:21,102
It's like, yeah, but you don't have the same. My bottom line metric

688
00:42:21,158 --> 00:42:24,514
is revenue and how much it cost me to get that revenue.

689
00:42:25,054 --> 00:42:28,366
Oh, that's profitability. What are you talking

690
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:32,198
about? So connect the dots philosophy

691
00:42:32,246 --> 00:42:35,926
is a blend of these things. Keep an eye on the metric,

692
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:39,022
but also managing this

693
00:42:39,158 --> 00:42:42,994
experiential part of the sale. Absolutely. I mean, listen,

694
00:42:46,254 --> 00:42:49,954
I think you're saying it well. Digital marketing

695
00:42:50,414 --> 00:42:53,794
can move the needle, but it cannot

696
00:42:54,974 --> 00:42:58,366
change. It cannot. It's not

697
00:42:58,430 --> 00:43:01,830
inception. It isn't. And

698
00:43:01,862 --> 00:43:05,278
so inception, or a

699
00:43:05,326 --> 00:43:09,162
relation for a product like adult

700
00:43:09,218 --> 00:43:12,914
beverage wine in particular, is the

701
00:43:12,954 --> 00:43:16,210
moment, and inception only happens

702
00:43:16,242 --> 00:43:20,002
offline. That's it. That's a

703
00:43:20,018 --> 00:43:23,814
good, that's a great way to put it. You think wine is excluded from,

704
00:43:25,954 --> 00:43:29,410
or is it actually probably more plagued with the

705
00:43:29,442 --> 00:43:33,014
headwinds of marketing, digital marketing and

706
00:43:33,714 --> 00:43:37,516
such a small percentage actually drink wine or want to experience wine. Is it

707
00:43:37,580 --> 00:43:41,236
plagued with that normal amount of people? I

708
00:43:41,260 --> 00:43:44,184
think that what's plaguing the industry is innovation.

709
00:43:44,764 --> 00:43:48,344
True innovation. Not like coming up with another label with a critter.

710
00:43:48,684 --> 00:43:51,948
I'm talking about sustainable packaging. I'm talking

711
00:43:51,996 --> 00:43:55,384
about making it easy. I'm talking about

712
00:43:55,764 --> 00:43:59,108
ingredients and wellness. I mean, all of the

713
00:43:59,156 --> 00:44:02,940
elements that if you look at

714
00:44:02,972 --> 00:44:06,604
rtds, just as a comparison out there, you know,

715
00:44:06,644 --> 00:44:10,468
they're killing it. You know,

716
00:44:10,596 --> 00:44:14,268
you look at, you know, canned rtds,

717
00:44:14,356 --> 00:44:18,044
I'm not going to name one in particular. But their

718
00:44:18,084 --> 00:44:21,140
lead is, I'm x amount of calories,

719
00:44:21,292 --> 00:44:24,624
and I'm good for you. And,

720
00:44:26,524 --> 00:44:30,002
you know, it's. It's. It's. We're Seltzer based. Right.

721
00:44:30,058 --> 00:44:33,650
Okay. We know that there's crap in that

722
00:44:33,682 --> 00:44:37,346
can and that the only,

723
00:44:37,490 --> 00:44:41,242
like, the best, organic, most natural stuff, wellness

724
00:44:41,338 --> 00:44:42,934
like, oriented,

725
00:44:45,114 --> 00:44:48,354
alcohol based product you can put in your body is wine. Bottom

726
00:44:48,394 --> 00:44:52,034
line? Bottom line. And so

727
00:44:52,194 --> 00:44:55,864
why we are not owning that message as an industry? Why

728
00:44:55,904 --> 00:44:59,400
we are not actually saying 200 calories for this

729
00:44:59,432 --> 00:45:02,888
can or this package or this. The

730
00:45:02,936 --> 00:45:06,248
refusal of the industry to shift

731
00:45:06,336 --> 00:45:09,600
into this kind of. This area of

732
00:45:09,632 --> 00:45:13,120
innovation is the limitation of the industry in my

733
00:45:13,152 --> 00:45:16,684
mind. You see people out there trying, and

734
00:45:17,584 --> 00:45:21,224
it will eventually happen. But I believe that the wine

735
00:45:21,264 --> 00:45:24,344
industry is just. It's late to the game

736
00:45:25,764 --> 00:45:29,604
on this side of things. Now, a lot of people say, well, you know,

737
00:45:29,644 --> 00:45:33,236
there's cannabis and there's, you know, other things,

738
00:45:33,340 --> 00:45:36,652
and, you know, it's key. And people are drinking less, and it's, you

739
00:45:36,668 --> 00:45:40,436
know, you know, dry January, blah,

740
00:45:40,460 --> 00:45:44,268
blah, blah, blah. I will tell you, I have younger

741
00:45:44,316 --> 00:45:48,084
kids who are a drinking age, and they're as interested in

742
00:45:48,164 --> 00:45:51,184
enjoying something to drink as we were as teenagers.

743
00:45:52,144 --> 00:45:55,528
You know, what you just said? And I couldn't

744
00:45:55,576 --> 00:45:59,352
write talking points fast enough. Cause we have to do

745
00:45:59,368 --> 00:46:03,208
this again because there's so much to uncover, because there are

746
00:46:03,256 --> 00:46:07,040
people on LinkedIn that talk about innovation, and innovation can be

747
00:46:07,072 --> 00:46:10,616
used as just this cloud. You won't talk about cloud

748
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,336
based ideas. Well, you're not innovating enough. But then you go to the

749
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,480
market, and you put your camera on a bottle of 19 crimes, and the guy

750
00:46:17,512 --> 00:46:20,760
comes alive and tells you the crime he did. Is that innovation? I don't know.

751
00:46:20,792 --> 00:46:24,336
Define innovation. And I wrote a little article the other day. I put it

752
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,164
LinkedIn. And I said, history has my back on this, because

753
00:46:28,544 --> 00:46:32,216
I think all this stuff is just blips on the

754
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:35,896
graph. It's 10,000 years old. We've been drinking it forever. It's the same as it

755
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,704
was 10,000 years ago. They found the shoes of the guy making

756
00:46:39,744 --> 00:46:43,216
the wine in the armenian cave at Adeni, and

757
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,186
we were selling bottles and James wine coolers in my dad's wine shop, and

758
00:46:47,210 --> 00:46:50,434
they're gone, or they're, you know, much less there. And I think all of these

759
00:46:50,474 --> 00:46:54,266
things are just humans jumping into the

760
00:46:54,290 --> 00:46:57,242
freight, trying to make a buck. And I can't tell you how many people I've

761
00:46:57,258 --> 00:47:00,682
had on my show with this unique idea. I got to tell you, Jessica, this

762
00:47:00,698 --> 00:47:03,810
is a unique idea. You know, we're going to put. We're going to put wine

763
00:47:03,842 --> 00:47:07,450
in a 200 ML bottle because nobody can drink a whole

764
00:47:07,482 --> 00:47:10,690
bottle, which is wrong, unfortunately, that's where I'm at these days.

765
00:47:10,762 --> 00:47:14,364
But, you know, so, so

766
00:47:14,484 --> 00:47:17,876
I just. My romantic view of this is it's a

767
00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:21,092
blip. And my practical view is, yeah, we got to make a buck and so

768
00:47:21,108 --> 00:47:23,864
we got to sell some wine. And these are the things that people are buying.

769
00:47:26,044 --> 00:47:28,980
That's one of the points. Another point you made about rtDs, which is

770
00:47:29,012 --> 00:47:32,772
fascinating, these Gen Z x l M O p s

771
00:47:32,948 --> 00:47:36,692
that talk about biodynamic and talk about organic foods, and they shop at

772
00:47:36,708 --> 00:47:40,210
Whole Foods, but they drink white claw, which is nothing,

773
00:47:40,242 --> 00:47:43,618
but. It is just, and it's like,

774
00:47:43,706 --> 00:47:47,322
why? Why is the wine industry not

775
00:47:47,418 --> 00:47:49,974
jumping in there and being like,

776
00:47:51,234 --> 00:47:54,734
stop the process? Well, you were there. You were,

777
00:47:55,434 --> 00:47:58,058
you were in the crux of it all. You were in one of the biggest

778
00:47:58,106 --> 00:48:01,914
wine conglomerates in America. I mean, and we're going

779
00:48:01,914 --> 00:48:05,482
to run out of time here because it's already 50 minutes and we'll have to

780
00:48:05,498 --> 00:48:08,312
do this again. But vintage wine states was huge.

781
00:48:08,488 --> 00:48:12,232
Wink was huge. $250 million in sales, direct to

782
00:48:12,248 --> 00:48:15,808
consumer. All of it sold for $10 million because they couldn't make a dollar on

783
00:48:15,816 --> 00:48:19,044
any of it. Like a Ponzi scheme. I mean, you were right there.

784
00:48:19,984 --> 00:48:23,544
How could innovation not occur in the halls of

785
00:48:23,624 --> 00:48:27,296
those places? Because the people who were in

786
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:27,884
there,

787
00:48:33,194 --> 00:48:36,778
they could not. They had, they were single

788
00:48:36,826 --> 00:48:40,410
minded in their obsession of conforming

789
00:48:40,522 --> 00:48:44,274
into whatever the industry had and just reselling

790
00:48:44,314 --> 00:48:48,010
that in a different. In a different way. Right. Just building

791
00:48:48,082 --> 00:48:51,874
a new channel, establishing in the industry that there is a new channel

792
00:48:52,034 --> 00:48:55,650
and this channel is going to dominate. Right? Do you

793
00:48:55,682 --> 00:48:59,442
remember, like, it's like, that's why, like, at WSA, like, you

794
00:48:59,458 --> 00:49:03,122
couldn't go in there because they were like, you're trying to

795
00:49:03,138 --> 00:49:06,682
steal my business. Right? Like, and

796
00:49:06,778 --> 00:49:10,426
on some level, it was understood that that was happening because

797
00:49:10,490 --> 00:49:14,054
of all of the roadblocks that the wholesalers were putting up.

798
00:49:14,394 --> 00:49:18,106
That was that time. There's nothing wrong with that time. I'll buy that. I'll buy

799
00:49:18,130 --> 00:49:21,506
that. There was nothing wrong with that time. It's just the world has changed. And

800
00:49:21,530 --> 00:49:25,314
quite frankly, I just think that part of the

801
00:49:25,354 --> 00:49:28,766
rejiggering of our industry is that we do need

802
00:49:28,830 --> 00:49:32,634
to listen to what the consumer wants.

803
00:49:32,974 --> 00:49:36,678
I'm not saying that you get rid of the 750 ML, like, that's always going

804
00:49:36,686 --> 00:49:40,270
to be the name that is always going to be it. But we

805
00:49:40,342 --> 00:49:43,974
have to find a way to connect with

806
00:49:44,054 --> 00:49:46,314
consumers in this way

807
00:49:48,414 --> 00:49:52,126
that will lend itself to long term wine drinkers. Because

808
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:56,004
we're not. We're not doing that very well. We're not handing it down

809
00:49:56,044 --> 00:49:59,420
very well. The only thing we're handing down well is what grandparents are

810
00:49:59,452 --> 00:50:01,224
giving their grandkids.

811
00:50:03,044 --> 00:50:06,308
I'm going to leave it at that today. Fascinating

812
00:50:06,356 --> 00:50:09,836
conversation. We have so much to talk about. I know. So much.

813
00:50:09,980 --> 00:50:13,828
But we'll do it again. Love to. And we'll continue

814
00:50:13,956 --> 00:50:17,636
that thought process because it annoys me when

815
00:50:17,660 --> 00:50:21,432
I read from people and I want to counter them, but I

816
00:50:21,448 --> 00:50:24,324
don't want to get into an argument online, so I don't do it.

817
00:50:25,024 --> 00:50:28,792
We'll just do it over here. So we'll do that. Such a pleasure to

818
00:50:28,808 --> 00:50:32,640
see you again. Thank you for taking the time this morning. Yeah. And we'll

819
00:50:32,672 --> 00:50:36,364
reconnect soon. Looking forward to it. Cheers.

820
00:50:45,224 --> 00:50:48,560
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum, Cary. And don't forget to

821
00:50:48,592 --> 00:50:51,760
subscribe because there's more great interviews on there. Way,

822
00:50:51,912 --> 00:50:55,224
folks. Have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.