She Has The Passion And The Experience. Meet Wanda Mann

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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today, about

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to have a conversation way out in Harlem with Wanda man. Introductions in just a

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moment. Wine talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify, wherever you

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hang out for podcasting and have a listen to claude

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Roquette. He has lived and worked on the greatest vineyards and

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areas of wine in France, but landed in Napa Valley

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working for the Smith Haute Lafitte Bordeaux house at a winery called

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Cathiard. The wines are fabulous wines, and we talk about the

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French coming to America and using the new world,

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let's call it the new world, to make wine. You start to see a great

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difference in not the quality, but the depth of the wines and the

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complexity here about that as well. I just released an

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episode with Frederick J. Ryan, the CEO of the Reagan

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foundation, but more importantly, author of the book

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White House a History, the preeminent

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authority in America on what was poured when in the White House. And all

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the history that goes with it is really quite interesting. Probably due

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for a second episode just to catch up on all things at the White

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House. But now, while we're here, we're here to talk about wine with Wanda

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man. Wanda is the east coast editor of the famed trade

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magazine Psalm Journal, as well as the tasting panel. Welcome to the

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show. Thank you for the invitation, Paul. Happy to be here.

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Well, I've been watching you online. I guess that's what we do these days, right?

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Yeah, that's true all the way. We watch everyone

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online. And you've been contributing to the wine space

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for quite a long time. And you grew up in

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New York? I'm a native New Yorker. I was born on this island

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of Manhattan, so this is my hometown. Wow. There can't be that many of you

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around. You know, people always say that. I guess

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it doesn't seem that there are, but I'm like, you know, we have all these

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hospitals and babies are being born in New York every day. But it is

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you're more likely to encounter. I'm just thinking in terms of

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the wine community in New York. There's a handful of us that I can think

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of that were born in Manhattan. But, you know, New York is where people come

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to make their dreams come true. Right? So

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not everyone's born here, but, you know, we're here. We're here. No,

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that is interesting. Part of New York is that it does have that sort of

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moniker that whether you're coming from Europe or whether you're coming

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from in America to land in New York to take your

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shot because there's such a hotbed of not only food and

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wine, but entertainment and all the rest of industry.

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Anything you want to do, New York has it. You know, I'm not sure if

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we're still the city that never sleeps. I think since lockdown, people have

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gotten a little groggier. But definitely it is a place where

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you can invent, reinvent, rejuvenate, you know, pursue

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that dream, that passion. So it's nice to know that we still have that going

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for us. Well, we miss it. Like I told you, my

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daughter lived in Harlem as a boulanger

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for a restaurant that earned a Michelin star. And now

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she's in Potsdam. You ever heard of Potsdam,

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Sarah? Where is that exactly? Well, it's not the edge of the world, but you

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can see it from there. It's as far north in New York as you can

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get. Okay. Okay. It's quite

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a. Quite different than Manhattan, actually. I would think

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so. But you ended up in college in

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California. Actually, just down the road from where I'm at today. How did that

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happen? Yes, I went to Pomona College. I'm a proud

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sage hen. That's our odd little mascot. How did

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that happen? Yes, I had no family in California. I'd

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never even really been to California until I visited Pomona

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the year that I was graduating from college, Pomona became a very

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hot school. So I actually went to high school in Massachusetts.

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I went to boarding school. And that year a lot of us applied to

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Pomona. I think it really started moving up the rankings in that time.

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And I flew out to visit in the

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deep depth of winter in New England. And I went to

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sunny Inland Empire and I said, oh,

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it's a good school. That's a bonus. I really like this weather.

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Yeah. I have to say, the sunshine

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played a major decision. But I did like the fact that it was a small

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school. There were no teaching assistants. So in

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some ways, it didn't feel so different from Andover. It was just

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much better weather there. Well, all five

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of the schools in that group are highly acclaimed

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educational institutions. So, I mean, you could have. You did very well for

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doing that. Well, why didn't you stay in California? I

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finally got home sick. I stayed a couple of years after graduation,

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but I left home at 14 to go away boarding school. And then

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I did a junior year in high school in Spain and a junior year in

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college in Spain. So I'd always been kind of a bit of a nomad.

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And I was ready to be back near, near my family, quite

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honestly, and enjoy New York. I never really

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had, you know, teenage experience in New York. I went away

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to school at 14. I would come home for break, so I wanted to

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experience my city as an adult. And good

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decision. Yeah, it's been great. It's been great.

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You know, it's interesting. New York used to be, when we were there, pre

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COVID, man, there was a wine shop, like, on every corner. I mean,

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it's one of those towns where wine is an important

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part of the culture. Certainly the restaurant, food, the hospitality side

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of New York is incredible. The hotbed of

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restaurants and Michelin stars. But there always seems to be a wine

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culture that just sort of runs itself. It just

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kind of takes care of itself. It's got wine bars, it's got wine

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shops. Did that, was that part of your, you know,

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post college lifestyle?

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To be honest, no, not really.

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I wish I could say that it was. I got into wine and very

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roundabout way. When I

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graduated, I eventually ended up working as an events planner. So I

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was working with nonprofits. I was producing red carpet galas. Took

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a few detours, and I ended up becoming the events director at the

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Princeton Club in midtown. And part of my responsibility was

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putting on the wine and spirits tastings for the members, because those

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were no brainers, they were profitable. My general

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manager was happy and got members in the club. The events always

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sold out. So I started meeting people in the industry, and at that

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point, really, my wine knowledge was, it's white, or it's red, it still,

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or it's sparkles. I really didn't know much. I was the person,

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like, do we have the tasting mats? Do we have the decanters? Are they chilled

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right? But through doing those events, I started meeting people in the

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industry. And someone invited me to have lunch one day, said, oh, you were

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so great to work with. Why don't you come one day to one of our

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events that aren't at the Princeton Club so you can enjoy the tasting?

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And that was really my first time sitting across from a winemaker that was

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probably about 2010 or eleven, and I realized there

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was this whole world I didn't know about. You know, he talked about these

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grapes like they were children, you know, throwing around these terms,

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malolactic fermentation, trellis systems. And I'm

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nodding my head and thinking, boy, I have a lot to learn. And that was

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really the catalyst. I started going to more tastings. I started buying

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books. I was already writing at that point, I had a pretty

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popular lifestyle blog and newsletter with. With

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advertisers, and I covered fashion and food and arts and

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culture, but I slowly started integrating wine content.

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And then I think it was at a time where a lot of women my

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age were at a point in our career where we wanted to know more about

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wine. Your early thirties, you're making a little more money, you're going

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to events, you're going to fancier restaurants. You want to be able

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to say something other than white wine. So as I was

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learning, I was sharing with other women especially, who wanted to know,

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what is Chardonnay? What is suncer with what is

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Vermentino? So it was just. It was kind of like the right

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moment, the right time. So I always laugh when people say, oh, you're so new

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to this. It's just when I started, there was no instagram. You

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know, it was a blog. And I used to

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do in person events for my readers. But,

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yeah, I've been kicking around for about 15 plus years now

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doing. Do you think that that is an academic

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curiosity where you sat there, or was it

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driven by your need to

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understand wine specifically or food?

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I always try to pin this down. What is this motivating factor

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that piques our curiosity at some point and we just have to learn

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more? I think it's a little bit of both. Being an

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anthropology major, I think I'm just always naturally curious about

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any type of culture that's different. So the

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wine culture is certainly something that was new and exciting, a new way

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of looking at the world. And it brought in all the issues that I was

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interested in. Culture, language, science,

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artistry, spirituality, it's all there in wine. And

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my dad was a professional chef, so I always grew up with the love of

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flavor. And so even though we spend a lot of time more

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focused on food, my dad did buy me my first bottle of wine when I

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was 16. So I think all of these things kind of combined. Like,

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wow, this is something that, yeah, it tastes good. I'm getting a little

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older, I'm appreciating more about it. But really,

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for me, yes, the wine should taste good. That's

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important. It being delicious is an important part of its appeal.

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But I think the stories are really what attracted me, just

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learning why people do this, why

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people collect, why people change careers to become

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winemakers, why people continue when they lose

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everything in a fire. You know, just what is that drive? So I

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think that's really what keeps me interested, are the stories. It's funny

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you said collected. I am not a collector. We never even. My

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business was about $15 to $20 wines after 35 years

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of doing this. And I never collected it. Never even told. I thought,

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you know, collecting wine for a financial gain was really not a good idea.

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But now, because I sold the company and the buyer wanted

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nothing to do with our seller, I've got like, I don't know,

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3000 bottles almost of some pretty cool stuff. And

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I. This mentality of collecting has settled in. I'm like, man, if I

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drink that, I'm not going to have it anymore. And that's

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like, I'm like, you shouldn't care,

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just drink it because what are you doing anyway?

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But you're an anthropology major.

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Yes. Well, look,

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I had 30,000, 30,000 cases here almost at all

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times. And so I really didn't need a seller and I really didn't need

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any. But now I have to have one. But you know, anthropology major is

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an interesting viewpoint for the wine business that, you

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know, they found that winery in Armenia 6000 years old. They found the winemaker

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shoes or maybe did they have cellar rats back then? Maybe that was

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a cellar rat shoe, we don't know.

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But there is something very historical about wine as a beverage. Was it part of

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the curriculum at all when you were in college? You know,

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not at all. I mean, Pomona, like, you know, was not a

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party school at all. I think the only wine I ever drank

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during the Pomona years was a wine cooler and some

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boone's farm.

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I was like, oh my goodness, all those years in the west coast, I never

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visited Napa, Sonoma, Central coast.

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It really was not a part of the experience. And then recently I met Chapney

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Corson, also Pomona College

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graduate. And what sparked her interest in wine was a

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wine tasting class at Pomona. And I'm like, they didn't have that when I

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was there. Well, that's so interesting. Wouldn't it be

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anthropologic? Anthropologic? Anthropologic,

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anthropological. I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't

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wine be part of that curriculum? Because it goes so far

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back. You know, I think you've given me a good

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case to go to the school and say I'd like to be an adjunct in

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the anthropology. I may have found

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a new gig, but no, we talk about anthropology

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covers linguistics, archaeology, culture.

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And I'm sure we must have talked about wine at different points, but it was

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never a focus. There were no wine classes at Pomona at

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all, so. Well, I think this is what separates wine

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from every other beverage is this historical viewpoint

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and its cultural additive to, you know,

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lifestyle. I mean, you know, they know, they know what vintages King Tut

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liked. They have to tell you something, right? There's something

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unique and ethereal about this glass, the wine. I just wrote an article that I'm

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going to post today, a short article on the

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contemporary issues with wine in the marketplace

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and how I think history has its back because

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it's not going to go away, of course. And if somebody wants to drink it

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out of a can, let them drink out of a can. But that's eventually going

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to be a non issue as well. But for you,

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you sat at this table, you tasted this wine, you heard these stories, and

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now you realize you'll never learn at all. Yeah.

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And even now, I mean, I think even if you

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talk to masters of wine and master psalms, I think that's the beauty of wine,

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is that you will never know at all. So it keeps it exciting and it's

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also very humbling. So that's why I'm always a little, I have a bit

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of trepidation when someone says you're a wine expert. I'm like, I may know

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slightly more than you just because I've immersed myself in it,

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but to call myself an expert, I

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don't feel that. I feel I'm someone who's learning. I'm passionate. I

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like to share that information. It has certainly made topics that

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I didn't have much interest in before more interesting to me.

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So I think about geology at Pomona. Rocks for jocks, we

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called it. I hated geology. Well, once you get into

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wine, you become like a soil and rock nerd, right?

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Like really riveting and exciting. Like, if

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only they had taught this through the lens of wine, I would have found it

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interesting, perhaps. So I, you know, I always regretted not going

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on to grad school. I was admitted, and then my life took a

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different direction and I decided not to go. But for me, wine has

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kind of filled that void of ongoing education. You

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know, they say that it has for me, for sure. I mean, my

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mom, if she was alive, would have gone, you know, who is this kid

247
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who understands, like, world geography? Like, I didn't care.

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Exactly. But that's one of the subjects that your brain

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wraps around when you start studying wine as well as, like you said, rocks and

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things. And part of that says,

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and maybe this is where this contemporary viewpoint of the wine

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industry is. And I think, and we'll talk about that a second, why I think

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it's going backwards a little bit. But is that the intimidating

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factor for your friends, let's say, who consider you an expert when

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you bring up sheast or chalk or,

256
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you know, granite and tap roots and all those things that,

257
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the buzzwords that we know but make everybody else's eyes

258
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spin, is that the intimidating factor for all?

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And we're going to talk about the cultural aspect of this, too. But is that

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in general, the things that people go, oh, you know, I really, I just want

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a glass of wine. I don't want to hear about it. Yeah, I think it

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can be, but it doesn't have to be because I think, you

263
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know, sometimes wine can feel like inside baseball, right?

264
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Those of us in the industry, you know, we throw around our

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vernacular and our way of speaking about wine because it's a language

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that we know. And sometimes we forget when we're talking to consumers

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and new drinkers that they're not familiar with those terms. So when you

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say, oh, yeah, it went through Mallow, oh, yeah, this wine has

269
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some va, and they're like, what are you talking about? Right.

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So I think, you know, I've been doing a lot of events with consumers now

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at festivals, at private clubs here in New York. And I

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think at the beginning, you just want to talk in very simple terms. They

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can understand. It shouldn't read, you know,

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like a taste sound, like a tasting note or

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a scientific description. I always tell people, I want you to leave with maybe

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three things you didn't know before. So then when you go to that cocktail

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party, for example, the number of people who don't is like,

278
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oh, I don't think I like Sancerre, but I like Sauvignon blanc. Well, I've

279
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got a surprise for you. Sancerre is Sauvignon Blanc. How about

280
00:17:04,732 --> 00:17:08,172
that? Oh, I don't really like Chardonnay, but

281
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Chablis is great. Well, you know what? That's really

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funny. Or people who think we talk

283
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about all these different flavors, and I've had someone genuinely ask,

284
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so, like, do they add, like, when you say it tastes like

285
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strawberry and hibiscus and tea leaves, do they

286
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add that to the wine? No, they don't. But, you know, there's some

287
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shared chemical compounds between those fruits and

288
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wine. Now, you don't need to rattle off the name of all the compounds to

289
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show off, you know? So I think sometimes we just need to be a

290
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little more simple when we present it. And then for those people

291
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who want to know more, they'll start geeking out like I did. They'll find information

292
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on their own. They'll start going to more advanced tastings and

293
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seeking out more, you know,

294
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challenging experiences. But I think we do ourselves disservice when we

295
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say, you can only talk about wine in this way.

296
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I agree with that, and certainly unintentional because

297
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I suppose in order to describe things or to talk about it, to understand, if

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you really want to dig deeper, you're going to figure out that, yes, like, we'll

299
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just say the other night I had a dinner with a french winemaker who came

300
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to our home, young man, and no one else in the room would have

301
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understood this. When I told him, I said, I've got a sparkling wine here, grown

302
00:18:22,660 --> 00:18:26,156
in, you know, it was in sheath. And he goes, oh, absolutely.

303
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:29,964
And it's not champagne. It's not an expensive bottle, but it's really good because

304
00:18:30,004 --> 00:18:33,666
he understands what that's supposed to be like, and certainly no one else in the

305
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:36,894
room was going to know that, right? So it's unintentional that

306
00:18:37,354 --> 00:18:41,186
this vernacular occurs because you've got to study it.

307
00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:45,050
How many people do you think when you have those events with the consumers

308
00:18:45,242 --> 00:18:48,930
and you try to bring the language to a point where most

309
00:18:48,962 --> 00:18:52,714
people can understand it? How many think come away percentage wise

310
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with at least the idea, I'd like to take the next

311
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step. I'm sure this is a guess, but because most people go, hey, I went

312
00:19:00,328 --> 00:19:03,488
to this event. It's really cool. The guy was talking about this and that, and,

313
00:19:03,536 --> 00:19:07,376
you know, I still like, you know, my, my apothec red. So

314
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,604
what do you think? There's a group?

315
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I think so, because I think the fact that they even showed up for that

316
00:19:14,744 --> 00:19:18,280
event shows that there's a virgin. Now, once in a while, you see someone whose

317
00:19:18,312 --> 00:19:22,096
partner clearly dragged them to the tasting like, honey is date night and we're going

318
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to a wine tasting. I had an

319
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experience last year in Aspen. There was a couple

320
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sitting front row center, and one of them

321
00:19:32,768 --> 00:19:36,584
looked miserable for the first ten minutes, like, I don't want to be at this

322
00:19:36,624 --> 00:19:40,400
event. She made me come to this tasting. So I kind

323
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of kept looking over at him, and I said, I think he's

324
00:19:43,872 --> 00:19:47,600
softening up a little. After two sips, we get to the

325
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third wine, he's nodding, he's participating. After the

326
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session ended, he's the first person I went to, and I said,

327
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am I wrong? But I had a feeling in the beginning, you don't really want

328
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to be here. She made you come, didn't she? He goes, yeah, but I got

329
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:05,670
to tell you, this was really fun. I learned a

330
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lot. And he's like, I would do it again. Wow, that's great.

331
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So I think that when you make it real, if you keep it down

332
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to earth, that even those folks who think they're not

333
00:20:17,046 --> 00:20:20,704
interested, and sometimes it's, like I said, sometimes they

334
00:20:20,744 --> 00:20:24,472
didn't know if it's a science geek, they really cling to

335
00:20:24,488 --> 00:20:28,040
the science. Like, oh, I didn't know that. Or someone who's really into,

336
00:20:28,112 --> 00:20:31,496
who's environmentalist. And I hear about all of the sustainability

337
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,288
efforts and wine. Sometimes it's a social justice perspective

338
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when they hear about whiny, sort of very involved in

339
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important social justice issues, you know, gender diversity, racial

340
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diversity, equity parity. So I think, you know,

341
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you meet people where they are. So I would like

342
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to think more than half the room will

343
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continue to go to wine tastings, will go to wine shops and step

344
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out of their comfort zone, because that's the main thing I tell people, we all

345
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have our comfort wines just like we have comfort foods. But I challenge

346
00:21:05,070 --> 00:21:08,910
you. When you go to your wine shop, don't always reach for that same bottle

347
00:21:08,942 --> 00:21:12,714
that you always get. Have a conversation, develop a good

348
00:21:12,754 --> 00:21:16,138
relationship with your wine cellar, and

349
00:21:16,186 --> 00:21:19,658
expand a bit. And you don't have to like everything. And there's nothing wrong. I

350
00:21:19,666 --> 00:21:22,914
don't care how many points it has. You're allowed not to like

351
00:21:22,954 --> 00:21:26,770
it, but understand why you don't like it. Maybe

352
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you like a more acidic wine. Maybe you like a less acidic wine. Maybe you

353
00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:33,962
like more complexity. Maybe you, you know, you, you like

354
00:21:34,018 --> 00:21:37,690
lots of tannin, grippy wines. Maybe you like a jammy

355
00:21:37,722 --> 00:21:41,374
wine. There's nothing wrong, but understand what you. Do and don't like,

356
00:21:41,674 --> 00:21:45,394
you know, that's a great thought. And I had a buyer here at one of

357
00:21:45,434 --> 00:21:49,214
my wine shop was open. It was dore. He was one of the

358
00:21:49,554 --> 00:21:53,294
best pallets buying pallets in Los Angeles, for sure

359
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of my experience. But uncannily, he was able

360
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to take somebody's record. Some walks into the shop

361
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and says, I usually buy you this. And he'd say, well, I'm going to take

362
00:22:04,090 --> 00:22:07,730
you over here to try something else. And that's a

363
00:22:07,762 --> 00:22:11,394
talent for a wine shop owner or a wine club owner,

364
00:22:11,474 --> 00:22:14,786
to be able to hear a particular style and

365
00:22:14,810 --> 00:22:18,394
then take the next step, left or right,

366
00:22:18,554 --> 00:22:22,186
north or south, as to what that person might like. And that's an important thing.

367
00:22:22,210 --> 00:22:24,746
But you said something very important. This is the part we're going to peel back

368
00:22:24,770 --> 00:22:27,970
now, and that is this experiential part of

369
00:22:28,002 --> 00:22:31,454
wine. I think the industry has been plagued

370
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by a couple of things, and one of them is the advent of the

371
00:22:35,698 --> 00:22:38,534
Internet and the advent of

372
00:22:39,314 --> 00:22:43,098
50 cent a liter wines coming from Europe being bottled with fancy labels

373
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and being sold as something more than they are,

374
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and the disillusion of the consumer.

375
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Because the story can't be when you're sitting at dinner with your friends, hey, I

376
00:22:53,458 --> 00:22:55,574
got this for $5 on the Internet.

377
00:22:57,354 --> 00:23:01,042
There was a new club started during Christmas that I watched called Vino Cheapo, for

378
00:23:01,058 --> 00:23:04,776
my God's sake. I mean, give me a break. So why would you, you know,

379
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,632
why would you do that at dinner? Hey, I got this. At Vino Cheapo, you

380
00:23:07,648 --> 00:23:11,488
know? Yeah, maybe the wines are good. I don't. Well, that's a

381
00:23:11,496 --> 00:23:14,564
different story. But the point being,

382
00:23:15,224 --> 00:23:18,832
I think that wine actually is going back to, like, the seventies and

383
00:23:18,848 --> 00:23:22,524
eighties, when my dad had his wine groups and the Les Amie Devant was around

384
00:23:23,144 --> 00:23:26,416
in America. And you would go to the dinners and you would hear from the

385
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,120
winemakers, and that's where you start to understand

386
00:23:30,192 --> 00:23:33,880
the differences and the history and the romanticism and why

387
00:23:33,912 --> 00:23:37,688
a glass of wine is different than any other beverage. Are you seeing

388
00:23:37,736 --> 00:23:41,432
more of that? You know, I've noticed, you know,

389
00:23:41,568 --> 00:23:45,240
when I go out to eat, I'm really impressed. When I look around the

390
00:23:45,272 --> 00:23:48,912
dining room and I see young people in their twenties and thirties

391
00:23:48,968 --> 00:23:52,656
with really good battles on the table. I think we're

392
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,470
living in an age where the younger generation,

393
00:23:56,542 --> 00:24:00,246
they really care about what they eat and drink, and a great deal

394
00:24:00,270 --> 00:24:03,910
of their disposable income goes there. And I know we

395
00:24:03,942 --> 00:24:06,834
talk about, you know, they're not drinking enough. And

396
00:24:07,734 --> 00:24:10,766
part of that is, look, when you're young, you don't necessarily want to drink what

397
00:24:10,790 --> 00:24:14,558
your parents are drinking, right? And we were all young once,

398
00:24:14,646 --> 00:24:18,354
right? So it's a process. But I do notice, at least here in New York,

399
00:24:20,354 --> 00:24:23,930
I feel hopeful because I see that they're not just saying, oh, give me the

400
00:24:23,962 --> 00:24:27,586
cheapest or the second cheapest. I look, I'm like, oh, they spent more money on

401
00:24:27,610 --> 00:24:30,174
wine than we did tonight, and they're enjoying

402
00:24:30,554 --> 00:24:34,042
entertainment. So, yeah, I think

403
00:24:34,098 --> 00:24:37,682
people want to be a part of the conversation, and I think social media

404
00:24:37,738 --> 00:24:41,394
has fueled that. You know, when you see people, one of your friends

405
00:24:41,434 --> 00:24:45,170
in college who suddenly is a social media influencer, talking about wine,

406
00:24:45,202 --> 00:24:48,434
it's like, oh, I want to speak that language, too.

407
00:24:48,774 --> 00:24:52,454
So I think social media has really helped to fuel that conversation. There are some

408
00:24:52,494 --> 00:24:56,086
downsides to it as well. But I do think it has captivated

409
00:24:56,150 --> 00:24:59,926
a larger audience in a way that wasn't possible with just

410
00:24:59,950 --> 00:25:03,726
a print magazine. I think you're right. I think as

411
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:07,554
well, probably in the magazines that you contribute to,

412
00:25:08,654 --> 00:25:12,326
a lot of articles are about the decline in sales

413
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:15,902
for the listener. We're not talking about like this 30% drop in sales. We're talking

414
00:25:15,958 --> 00:25:19,446
a few percentage points. It's also coupled with the

415
00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:23,222
overproduction of wine and everybody jumping in to see

416
00:25:23,238 --> 00:25:26,110
if they can make a million dollars. And of course, we know how that works.

417
00:25:26,182 --> 00:25:29,846
That will add it and the advent

418
00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:33,686
of the supermarket formula wise. Now, this is an interesting problem

419
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:37,270
that we have, and I just realized the complexity of it as we're

420
00:25:37,302 --> 00:25:40,410
talking. You walk into about Ralph's market, supermarket,

421
00:25:40,442 --> 00:25:43,970
safeway, you know, Kroger's or any of the East

422
00:25:44,002 --> 00:25:47,614
coast chains, and virtually the shelf is the same.

423
00:25:48,434 --> 00:25:52,074
Right? It's a popular. Well, the beauty of New York City is you can't

424
00:25:52,114 --> 00:25:55,334
buy wine in the supermarket. Well, that's true. That's true.

425
00:25:55,834 --> 00:25:59,594
So for me, when I, it always throws me off when

426
00:25:59,634 --> 00:26:03,386
I'm in another state and I'm like, oh, my goodness, they have

427
00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:07,240
a whole aisle of wine. I'm like, how does anyone navigate this? There's

428
00:26:07,272 --> 00:26:11,096
no one to help you. That's a really good point. I didn't

429
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:14,360
think about that. Maybe, and I'm sure it's not the intention of the bureaucrats of

430
00:26:14,472 --> 00:26:18,184
New York, which was to actually create a system that forced

431
00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:21,512
somebody into looking at wines other than what's at the supermarket. Because there is no

432
00:26:21,528 --> 00:26:25,288
wine in the supermarket. Exactly. Even though, look, there is a lobby,

433
00:26:25,336 --> 00:26:29,112
you know, that very much wants to be able to sell wine in a

434
00:26:29,128 --> 00:26:32,896
supermarket. And of course, the wine shop and liquor store owners are

435
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,312
lobbying against it, of course. But I think the wine

436
00:26:36,368 --> 00:26:39,756
shop does a much better job of creating a

437
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:43,396
wine culture than a supermarket, which feels much more

438
00:26:43,420 --> 00:26:47,220
utilitarian. You go there for your necessities, you have your list,

439
00:26:47,332 --> 00:26:51,076
you grab what, you know, the times I've been out of state and

440
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:54,844
I've walked through these large wine aisles, they lack

441
00:26:54,884 --> 00:26:58,544
that energy that you get in a wine shop.

442
00:26:58,964 --> 00:27:02,372
Well, there's no, there's no question. And that was a point I was going to

443
00:27:02,388 --> 00:27:06,066
make. But since you live in New York, you don't get

444
00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:09,418
to experience it like I do. But if you go to Vaughn's here at Ralph's,

445
00:27:09,546 --> 00:27:12,922
it's the same shelf, you know, there's Cali red right in the middle.

446
00:27:13,018 --> 00:27:16,570
There's menage a trois and floor stacks of Josh

447
00:27:16,722 --> 00:27:20,242
and you don't get to make a decision. In fact, I posted a picture the

448
00:27:20,258 --> 00:27:23,818
other day of the Ralph's market Cabernet

449
00:27:23,866 --> 00:27:27,658
section. Every single wine had a shelf talker.

450
00:27:27,786 --> 00:27:31,448
So it was either about the price or is about the points that got it.

451
00:27:31,546 --> 00:27:35,104
And I posted. All I wrote was, how do you make a decision?

452
00:27:36,164 --> 00:27:38,932
And it kind of goes back to what I'm talking about, which is we need

453
00:27:38,988 --> 00:27:42,484
these wine shots. We need the department manager anyway at a large

454
00:27:42,524 --> 00:27:46,292
supermarket, if they have one, to help us break out. But

455
00:27:46,308 --> 00:27:50,100
then on the flip side of this, and you probably experienced it, we

456
00:27:50,132 --> 00:27:53,876
need those wines for people that don't drink wine to come into the fray.

457
00:27:54,020 --> 00:27:57,644
Grab a bottle of an interesting label and like, have you seen the freak

458
00:27:57,684 --> 00:28:00,994
show label? They're like a carnival picture. Yes, yes. Right?

459
00:28:01,774 --> 00:28:05,182
And they grab, they go, oh, this is interesting beverage. And then they move to

460
00:28:05,198 --> 00:28:07,874
the next step. And it's sort of like you need that entry level

461
00:28:09,174 --> 00:28:12,830
conversation before you can get to the stuff that we like to talk

462
00:28:12,862 --> 00:28:16,494
about. Absolutely. I always say very few Americans

463
00:28:16,534 --> 00:28:18,874
grow up, you know, drinking

464
00:28:20,094 --> 00:28:22,950
Brunello, Bordeaux,

465
00:28:23,102 --> 00:28:26,710
Burgundy. So you know that the palate, you know, there's a

466
00:28:26,742 --> 00:28:30,416
gateway. You have your entry level wines to kind of sparked the

467
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,704
excitement. That's actually a really good point. I never drank

468
00:28:33,744 --> 00:28:37,592
gin. My dad made me. I made a martini every night for him. Son, make

469
00:28:37,608 --> 00:28:40,936
me a martini, but I never drank it. And then till I was an adult,

470
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,744
now I drink too much for it. So, yeah, I never understood why my dad

471
00:28:44,784 --> 00:28:48,576
liked whiskey. I'm like, oh, smells like listerine. It's horrible. But

472
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,312
then once I got into wine, I started appreciating, you know, spirits

473
00:28:52,368 --> 00:28:56,184
as well. Yeah, you got to start. You got to start. That's the key

474
00:28:56,224 --> 00:28:59,468
thing. What are you hearing about non

475
00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:03,244
alcoholic? And this goes back to my romantic view of wine

476
00:29:03,404 --> 00:29:07,224
and the ethereal value of glass wine. But non alcoholic is hot.

477
00:29:07,724 --> 00:29:11,252
It is not. Sure I get it. I'm trying to figure out low alcohol, which

478
00:29:11,268 --> 00:29:14,544
I think is a better product, but

479
00:29:15,404 --> 00:29:18,944
bag in the box, all this cans.

480
00:29:19,804 --> 00:29:23,654
Had a conversation with the Cornell professor who's working

481
00:29:23,694 --> 00:29:27,206
on a food grade lining to help canned wines go

482
00:29:27,270 --> 00:29:31,006
longer. And I can only look

483
00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:34,790
at that having watched my dad's wine shop and my wine shop and everything go

484
00:29:34,822 --> 00:29:38,606
through its cycles as just blips in the consumption of

485
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:42,302
wine since we talked about this 6000 year old winery in

486
00:29:42,318 --> 00:29:45,638
Armenia. These are just consumer

487
00:29:45,726 --> 00:29:49,254
pieces that just kind of go up and down. And really,

488
00:29:50,514 --> 00:29:53,954
I think the low alcohol, because there are definitely times that I

489
00:29:53,994 --> 00:29:57,802
prefer lower alcohol wine right and again,

490
00:29:57,858 --> 00:30:00,614
you know, being more conscious of what we're consuming.

491
00:30:01,594 --> 00:30:05,154
And I think it also allows your friends and

492
00:30:05,194 --> 00:30:08,970
colleagues who don't drink to at least still participate in the ritual with the no

493
00:30:09,002 --> 00:30:12,786
alcohol. But as I said in an interview that I

494
00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:16,530
did last year, personally, I like my wine with alcohol. To

495
00:30:16,562 --> 00:30:20,374
me, that's what a wine is. I like the alcohol.

496
00:30:21,914 --> 00:30:25,258
I don't think we should demonize it. I think there's a real movement

497
00:30:25,306 --> 00:30:29,094
now that seems to be surging

498
00:30:30,194 --> 00:30:33,666
moderation. Drink smartly, but enjoy. But I

499
00:30:33,690 --> 00:30:36,894
think, just like we shouldn't overdo sugar,

500
00:30:37,234 --> 00:30:40,770
we know that too much sugar can be bad for us. Yes, too much

501
00:30:40,802 --> 00:30:44,010
alcohol is bad. But, yeah, the no

502
00:30:44,082 --> 00:30:47,874
alcohol, I read recently, what's the chain

503
00:30:47,954 --> 00:30:51,214
of Boisson? That a lot of their stores are closing.

504
00:30:51,964 --> 00:30:55,236
They started in New York. I believe they have some on the west coast, and

505
00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:58,424
their whole model was alcohol free beverages.

506
00:30:59,844 --> 00:31:03,500
And so the cynical part of me is like, maybe people realize they were

507
00:31:03,532 --> 00:31:07,260
spending $30 for a pretty bottle of iced tea or fruit juice.

508
00:31:07,372 --> 00:31:11,212
Yeah, right. Maybe that's the problem. Well, it's

509
00:31:11,228 --> 00:31:14,624
kind of interesting you just said this, and it just hit me.

510
00:31:15,644 --> 00:31:19,406
This generation, LMNOP or Z or X or whatever we're talking

511
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:23,118
about, and millennials as well, they were all about

512
00:31:23,206 --> 00:31:27,014
organic biodynamic. They're all about what you put in your body, but they drink white

513
00:31:27,054 --> 00:31:30,494
claw, which is kind of ironic. Exactly. But at the same

514
00:31:30,534 --> 00:31:34,286
time, for the listeners, non alcoholic wine is

515
00:31:34,430 --> 00:31:38,110
wine. And of course, it certainly has something to do with what

516
00:31:38,142 --> 00:31:40,310
you start with. It needs to be pretty good for it to end up being

517
00:31:40,342 --> 00:31:43,742
pretty good, removing the alcohol. But then they have to put

518
00:31:43,798 --> 00:31:47,532
back stuff in order to make it palatable. And so

519
00:31:47,548 --> 00:31:50,508
they put water back, and they put flavoring agents, whatever they do. And so all

520
00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:53,704
of a sudden, now, a non alcoholic winery is not really

521
00:31:54,484 --> 00:31:57,820
wine, obviously, but it's not as

522
00:31:58,012 --> 00:32:01,524
clean as maybe a biodynamic wine

523
00:32:01,564 --> 00:32:05,284
is, or an organic wine might be. And so maybe there's an

524
00:32:05,324 --> 00:32:08,104
irony between the generational

525
00:32:09,084 --> 00:32:12,872
output outlook on what you put in your body and

526
00:32:12,888 --> 00:32:15,720
the idea that we're not drinking alcohol, but what about all the crap we're putting

527
00:32:15,752 --> 00:32:17,444
back into the wine to make it palatable.

528
00:32:19,144 --> 00:32:22,856
Yeah. And again, I don't want to disparage, and a lot of people who are

529
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,664
working very hard in the low nose space, as they call

530
00:32:26,704 --> 00:32:30,496
it, but I don't think, I think they

531
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,232
can all coexist. Yes. Oh, that's a good one

532
00:32:34,368 --> 00:32:37,928
day when we talk about wine, traditional

533
00:32:37,976 --> 00:32:41,752
definition of wine is that it is an alcoholic beverage. Yes. And

534
00:32:41,768 --> 00:32:45,488
if you want to do something wine inspired or wine adjacent

535
00:32:45,536 --> 00:32:49,104
or a wine proxy, well and good. But I don't think

536
00:32:49,144 --> 00:32:52,720
that I would hope that the goal is that, oh, 50

537
00:32:52,792 --> 00:32:56,304
years from now, most wines will be alcohol free,

538
00:32:56,464 --> 00:33:00,112
because I think that completely changes this history, this

539
00:33:00,168 --> 00:33:03,804
narrative, this legacy. So I think we can have innovation

540
00:33:04,294 --> 00:33:08,142
because we're a diverse population and people want to try these things,

541
00:33:08,198 --> 00:33:11,870
go for it. But let's recognize wine kind of is

542
00:33:11,902 --> 00:33:15,430
the foundational drink that we're working with. And I think

543
00:33:15,462 --> 00:33:19,246
that's like the beginning of this conversation, was that these little. Little blips and

544
00:33:19,270 --> 00:33:22,942
little consumerisms, it led me to have this

545
00:33:22,998 --> 00:33:26,742
conversation in my head about most winemakers and vineyard owners that

546
00:33:26,758 --> 00:33:30,182
are not engaging this industry because they think they're going to make a billion

547
00:33:30,238 --> 00:33:33,672
dollars, will tell you that they're just passing through and they're just stewards of the

548
00:33:33,688 --> 00:33:37,320
land and stewards of the beverage. And we think about it, you know, Madame

549
00:33:37,352 --> 00:33:40,936
Clicot was making wine in the late 17 hundreds. Champagne. It's

550
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,520
pretty much the same as it was, you know, the profile, the flavor

551
00:33:44,552 --> 00:33:48,240
profile might be a little different, but it's a fermented grape juice

552
00:33:48,272 --> 00:33:51,824
beverage that's got bubbles in it and it's sealed with a cork. And it's pretty

553
00:33:51,864 --> 00:33:55,632
much the same after 300 something years. Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of

554
00:33:55,648 --> 00:33:59,372
interesting, speaking of her, you

555
00:33:59,388 --> 00:34:03,172
know, she was a pioneer. She was. Had

556
00:34:03,188 --> 00:34:06,916
her back against the wall to get into this industry. But a woman who was

557
00:34:06,940 --> 00:34:09,184
a formidable businesswoman of the time

558
00:34:11,164 --> 00:34:14,836
in women and wine, it's still kind of a struggle out there. And here you

559
00:34:14,860 --> 00:34:18,064
are, an influencer and a writer.

560
00:34:18,484 --> 00:34:22,252
Have you encountered any headwinds and sexism

561
00:34:22,308 --> 00:34:26,064
in this industry? Oh, I think, you know, whenever people ask

562
00:34:26,104 --> 00:34:29,552
this, I'm like, you have to remember, wine is a microcosm of

563
00:34:29,608 --> 00:34:33,400
everything else in our society. So this idea that somehow

564
00:34:33,432 --> 00:34:36,104
the wine industry would be a utopia, Shangri la,

565
00:34:36,184 --> 00:34:39,784
Kumbaya, that all of these other problems in the world. No,

566
00:34:39,864 --> 00:34:43,448
we have the power of wine. That, you know, it's kind of

567
00:34:43,496 --> 00:34:46,044
keeping. Us safe transcends it all.

568
00:34:47,704 --> 00:34:51,310
No, it's just not true. So,

569
00:34:51,342 --> 00:34:55,142
yes, I've experienced things, you know, just as I experienced them when

570
00:34:55,158 --> 00:34:58,886
I worked in other industries, but I do see

571
00:34:58,910 --> 00:35:02,350
the progress that has been made. You know, when I first started going to wine

572
00:35:02,382 --> 00:35:05,206
tastings, 20

573
00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:08,742
1011, I was often

574
00:35:08,918 --> 00:35:12,374
definitely the youngest. Now I'm no longer the youngest person in the room, which

575
00:35:12,414 --> 00:35:15,394
is, you know, you've reached that stage like oh, I'm

576
00:35:15,694 --> 00:35:16,434
sorry.

577
00:35:20,234 --> 00:35:23,882
So I definitely. I can check that list. Okay. Not the

578
00:35:23,898 --> 00:35:27,094
youngest anymore, but I was the youngest. I was often

579
00:35:27,474 --> 00:35:31,170
the only woman and often the only person of

580
00:35:31,202 --> 00:35:34,586
color in the room. Now, when I go to tastings,

581
00:35:34,770 --> 00:35:38,210
especially in a city as diverse as New York, you think about it.

582
00:35:38,362 --> 00:35:42,114
To have events in New York that didn't reflect the diversity

583
00:35:42,154 --> 00:35:45,906
of this city, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, it is. Now I

584
00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:49,724
go to taste things, and I see different ages, different

585
00:35:49,804 --> 00:35:53,556
backgrounds. Yeah. The progress has been

586
00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:57,188
made. Now, it doesn't mean that there

587
00:35:57,236 --> 00:36:00,708
doesn't linger some of these issues that just exist in our society

588
00:36:00,796 --> 00:36:04,300
still. You know, people who want to mansplain, people who assume

589
00:36:04,332 --> 00:36:07,692
because, oh, you must only like sweet wines.

590
00:36:07,748 --> 00:36:11,588
Right? You know, people will make off. Oh, let me tell

591
00:36:11,636 --> 00:36:15,076
you about the grape and Barolo. Oh, really? Oh,

592
00:36:15,100 --> 00:36:18,348
Borrello is not the name of the great. Thank you for enlightening me.

593
00:36:18,436 --> 00:36:19,104
Yeah,

594
00:36:22,124 --> 00:36:25,780
well, that's. Yeah, it exists for sure. It

595
00:36:25,812 --> 00:36:29,532
exists for sure. So the question, because I was at the AAA, and

596
00:36:29,548 --> 00:36:33,196
for the AAAV, for the listeners, it's the association of

597
00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:37,052
African American Vendors event in Napa. And I think there

598
00:36:37,068 --> 00:36:40,572
were 22 or 25 tables. I tasted every wine that was there. Oh,

599
00:36:40,588 --> 00:36:44,230
wow. And they were fabulous. You know, the whole lineup was amazing.

600
00:36:44,302 --> 00:36:48,070
Right. And I've had a lot of conversations with folks

601
00:36:48,102 --> 00:36:51,838
from there. I had a conversation with Dwayne Wade's operative, George

602
00:36:51,886 --> 00:36:55,622
Walker. George. Yay. George is fabulous. Yeah. And we had

603
00:36:55,638 --> 00:36:59,102
a great conversation. Yeah. It's an

604
00:36:59,118 --> 00:37:02,366
intimidating subject, and I wonder if that's not the root of

605
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:05,434
why people of color, women,

606
00:37:06,694 --> 00:37:10,242
LGBTQ community hasn't been involved. Because on

607
00:37:10,258 --> 00:37:14,106
the outside looking in, it's kind of intimidating. We talked about it a little

608
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:17,826
bit before, rather than an exclusive, you know,

609
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:21,626
an attempt to keep people out. I don't think that was really the

610
00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:25,374
case, but I think it's just an intimidating subject. And

611
00:37:25,674 --> 00:37:29,522
barrier exists. Yeah, intimidation definitely can be

612
00:37:29,538 --> 00:37:32,938
a factor. And how much of a fact, I think, varies from

613
00:37:32,986 --> 00:37:36,670
individual to individual. So I think, yes,

614
00:37:36,702 --> 00:37:40,114
there are trends that we see that impact groups,

615
00:37:40,494 --> 00:37:44,194
but always say we have to keep the individual in mind. So,

616
00:37:45,174 --> 00:37:48,982
yes, I did notice there were people coming up at

617
00:37:48,998 --> 00:37:52,790
the same time as me that I saw kind of drop out and always

618
00:37:52,862 --> 00:37:56,558
wonder why they faded away. Did they get tired of being the only

619
00:37:56,606 --> 00:38:00,294
one in the room feeling like they weren't being heard or seen? Whereas my

620
00:38:00,334 --> 00:38:04,010
nature is I just keep showing up. I'm a little bit stubborn that way. Like,

621
00:38:04,042 --> 00:38:07,858
I'm not going to let that deter me. So I think it is important

622
00:38:07,986 --> 00:38:11,330
to always say it's not enough to give people a seat at the

623
00:38:11,362 --> 00:38:15,090
table. You have to respect their presence and let their voice be

624
00:38:15,122 --> 00:38:18,810
heard. So I think there was a tendency in the beginning like,

625
00:38:18,842 --> 00:38:20,934
oh, well, more people are coming. That's great.

626
00:38:22,074 --> 00:38:24,654
But are they feeling welcome?

627
00:38:25,914 --> 00:38:29,578
Good point. So, and how do we do that without pandering?

628
00:38:29,666 --> 00:38:32,410
How do we do that in a respectful way? And I'm not saying I have

629
00:38:32,442 --> 00:38:36,120
all the answers, and there's certainly a learning curve, but I think

630
00:38:36,152 --> 00:38:40,000
if a true intent is there, people sense it. And I

631
00:38:40,032 --> 00:38:43,736
can tell the difference. When someone is inviting me, like,

632
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,416
oh, Wanda, we know you've been to Italy. Wow. At least 20 times.

633
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,072
You've written so much about Italy. We want to tap into you for your expertise

634
00:38:51,128 --> 00:38:54,312
there, as opposed to, oh, we need a black woman in the

635
00:38:54,328 --> 00:38:58,160
lineup. You sense the difference. I'm very sensitive to

636
00:38:58,192 --> 00:39:01,984
that because I don't believe in tokenism. I don't like feeling like I'm being

637
00:39:02,024 --> 00:39:05,814
pandered to. But you also have to create

638
00:39:06,114 --> 00:39:09,014
a pipeline for people to get the experience

639
00:39:09,674 --> 00:39:13,306
and the education. So it's great to see the scholarship programs that

640
00:39:13,330 --> 00:39:17,090
exist now. It's important to show that there's so many

641
00:39:17,122 --> 00:39:20,242
other careers and wine. You don't have to be a writer or a

642
00:39:20,258 --> 00:39:23,714
winemaker. You can work for an importer if you have a

643
00:39:23,754 --> 00:39:27,042
legal interest. You can use your law degree to work in the wine

644
00:39:27,098 --> 00:39:30,874
industry, be a publicist, be a copywriter, work in

645
00:39:30,914 --> 00:39:34,686
marketing. So I think there's so many other areas that aren't

646
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:38,510
as visible that would benefit from more diversity across the board

647
00:39:38,622 --> 00:39:41,926
in terms of age, race, gender, all of

648
00:39:41,950 --> 00:39:44,794
it. You know, that's a fascinating point.

649
00:39:45,534 --> 00:39:49,326
There are so many angles to this industry and to do. And I

650
00:39:49,350 --> 00:39:53,070
spent, like I said, there are already 35 years buying wine and bought a lot.

651
00:39:53,262 --> 00:39:57,070
I think I sold 17 million bottles. But I have

652
00:39:57,102 --> 00:40:00,884
gotten all that traction all those years. Doesn't

653
00:40:00,924 --> 00:40:04,716
compare to the exposure I've gotten through this

654
00:40:04,780 --> 00:40:08,228
podcast, which was generated just because I kept hearing great

655
00:40:08,276 --> 00:40:11,716
stories here in the shop. I decided to put a microphone in front of the

656
00:40:11,740 --> 00:40:15,180
stories, but traveling the world, and I was telling this to Angela McCrae the other

657
00:40:15,212 --> 00:40:18,908
day on the podcast. I said, you know, you're in the

658
00:40:18,916 --> 00:40:22,304
beginning of a career here, and you are going to find that

659
00:40:22,804 --> 00:40:26,424
the welcoming arms around anywhere you go in the world

660
00:40:27,184 --> 00:40:30,800
that you are participating in this industry and the way you are, in her

661
00:40:30,832 --> 00:40:34,384
case, with the AAAV that you're going to be, you're going to have an

662
00:40:34,424 --> 00:40:37,912
amazing experience. Like you just said, you can go to Italy

663
00:40:37,968 --> 00:40:41,792
and represent yourself, and you're like, it's a whole community and a

664
00:40:41,808 --> 00:40:45,400
whole fraternity. And, I think, irrelevant of your

665
00:40:45,432 --> 00:40:49,204
race or your sexual orientation or your sex.

666
00:40:50,184 --> 00:40:53,982
It's worldwide recognition that we're on the

667
00:40:53,998 --> 00:40:57,094
same page, or we try to be. On the same page, you know? It's so

668
00:40:57,134 --> 00:41:00,982
true. And I sometimes feel very corny because I feel like I say it

669
00:41:00,998 --> 00:41:04,230
at every press trip that I'm on, but I'll look around the

670
00:41:04,262 --> 00:41:08,030
table, and I'm like, how else would this have happened?

671
00:41:08,062 --> 00:41:11,854
That me, you know, humble background from

672
00:41:11,894 --> 00:41:15,454
New York, first in my family to go to college. I'm

673
00:41:15,494 --> 00:41:19,118
sitting with someone who has a title, whose family's been making

674
00:41:19,166 --> 00:41:22,806
wine for 400 years, someone who's a mayor, someone who's a

675
00:41:22,830 --> 00:41:26,274
dignitary. I was like, we would never have met

676
00:41:27,014 --> 00:41:30,574
with if not for wine. And not only not are we

677
00:41:30,614 --> 00:41:34,086
meeting, we're enjoying each other's company. This is the ultimate

678
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:37,590
icebreaker, because we all have this passion, and it lets the

679
00:41:37,622 --> 00:41:41,406
walls down. It's almost like we give someone the benefit of

680
00:41:41,430 --> 00:41:44,594
the doubt. Now, look, there's some jerks and wine, too, but in general,

681
00:41:46,294 --> 00:41:50,094
you're a wine person, okay? We can have a conversation, and then if, you

682
00:41:50,134 --> 00:41:53,846
know, it's, you know, it kind of opens the door. And that's what I

683
00:41:53,870 --> 00:41:57,478
really love about it, that people that I

684
00:41:57,526 --> 00:42:01,014
never would have encountered, you know, are in my circle now and in my

685
00:42:01,054 --> 00:42:04,390
corner and have really been great allies and

686
00:42:04,422 --> 00:42:08,006
supporters because we have this shared passion, and I think they

687
00:42:08,110 --> 00:42:11,598
see how much I love it. You know, you can't think of any other

688
00:42:11,646 --> 00:42:15,022
industry, and this is more for the benefit of the

689
00:42:15,038 --> 00:42:18,718
listeners. But that that occurs in, like, if you make

690
00:42:18,766 --> 00:42:22,324
widgets or semiconductors or if you make lawn furniture,

691
00:42:22,744 --> 00:42:26,496
nobody cares. If you go to the manufacturing section of Paris

692
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,248
and have a conversation with a lawn furniture maker, the man you show up in

693
00:42:30,256 --> 00:42:33,800
the wine trade, and that

694
00:42:33,832 --> 00:42:37,080
conversation is in recognition, and acceptance is

695
00:42:37,112 --> 00:42:40,840
immediate. And I think that bodes

696
00:42:40,872 --> 00:42:44,640
well for the industry when it comes to BIPOC and LBGQ

697
00:42:44,792 --> 00:42:48,404
community and different sexes, in that

698
00:42:49,124 --> 00:42:52,524
it really eventually has no

699
00:42:52,564 --> 00:42:56,148
barriers. It's just making people aware of

700
00:42:56,276 --> 00:43:00,052
that they did exist. And I say this because I had

701
00:43:00,068 --> 00:43:03,748
a conversation with Elizabeth Taigny of Cornell Vineyards

702
00:43:03,836 --> 00:43:07,476
in Spring Mountain and a very strong

703
00:43:07,540 --> 00:43:11,144
woman and a very good winemaker, and she

704
00:43:11,844 --> 00:43:15,476
almost was offended when I asked the same question. I just asked you about

705
00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:19,264
women in wine. And she goes, why does it even enter the conversation?

706
00:43:19,964 --> 00:43:23,772
Why do I have to have that conversation? I just make good wine.

707
00:43:23,828 --> 00:43:27,676
I go, you're right. Yeah, no, I get that.

708
00:43:27,780 --> 00:43:31,384
And it's. Sometimes I'll see a headline,

709
00:43:31,724 --> 00:43:35,396
let's black woman wine writer. It's like, well, why

710
00:43:35,420 --> 00:43:38,956
can't it just be wine writer? But I

711
00:43:38,980 --> 00:43:42,740
get it's important to acknowledge people

712
00:43:42,812 --> 00:43:46,440
who break barriers, and it's

713
00:43:46,472 --> 00:43:50,120
hopeful to think that we reach a point where it's so diverse that you

714
00:43:50,152 --> 00:43:53,744
don't have to call it out anymore. Correct? Not quite sure we're there

715
00:43:53,784 --> 00:43:57,632
yet. I was on a panel last year and this question came

716
00:43:57,688 --> 00:44:01,312
up. It was a women and wine symposium. Like, do we still

717
00:44:01,368 --> 00:44:04,880
need these events in these organizations? I

718
00:44:04,912 --> 00:44:08,520
said, the reality is, as far as we've come, women are still making

719
00:44:08,632 --> 00:44:12,474
around eighty seven cents to the dollar compared

720
00:44:12,514 --> 00:44:16,282
to what men make. Era, which they've been talking about since I

721
00:44:16,298 --> 00:44:20,138
was a little girl hasn't passed. But I haven't heard that acronym in a long

722
00:44:20,186 --> 00:44:23,922
time. Yeah, but it's true. And there's still people still working

723
00:44:24,018 --> 00:44:27,674
on that. So there are still issues, you know, when we

724
00:44:27,714 --> 00:44:30,962
look at healthcare, when we look at socioeconomic

725
00:44:31,018 --> 00:44:34,746
issues, you know, some of us are doing really well and we feel like,

726
00:44:34,770 --> 00:44:38,312
hey, I've made it. And maybe your little

727
00:44:38,368 --> 00:44:42,084
circle of friends is doing really well. But when you look at the statistics,

728
00:44:43,664 --> 00:44:47,464
women are still, you know, not getting our fair

729
00:44:47,504 --> 00:44:51,288
share of the pie sometimes. So I think it's important to

730
00:44:51,456 --> 00:44:55,032
not say, okay, we're done. So I think that's why it's

731
00:44:55,048 --> 00:44:58,804
important, and I think it's important for people who feel marginalized,

732
00:44:59,144 --> 00:45:02,668
you know, for women to get together. I'm the immediate

733
00:45:02,716 --> 00:45:05,988
past president of La Dame Descoffier. You know, we

734
00:45:06,036 --> 00:45:09,644
have 44, 45 chapters around the

735
00:45:09,684 --> 00:45:12,944
world of women in wine, food and hospitality.

736
00:45:13,564 --> 00:45:16,924
And, you know, I think it's important for women to have these

737
00:45:16,964 --> 00:45:20,140
communities where they feel like not only they can

738
00:45:20,332 --> 00:45:24,124
dis a bit, but have a support system, benefit from the

739
00:45:24,164 --> 00:45:27,132
knowledge of those who've gone before you. How did you navigate these

740
00:45:27,188 --> 00:45:30,496
challenges to hear from people who have been there before? You know

741
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,352
what? I have seen change, so we have to keep at it. But

742
00:45:34,408 --> 00:45:38,080
we're not done. We're not done. But I get what she's saying. You don't want

743
00:45:38,112 --> 00:45:41,960
the fact that you're a woman or a black person, an asian, Latino, to always

744
00:45:41,992 --> 00:45:45,084
be the leading headline, because

745
00:45:46,824 --> 00:45:50,124
I think it's a delicate balance. It's a delicate balance.

746
00:45:50,784 --> 00:45:53,768
There may not be an endgame to that. Maybe it's just

747
00:45:53,816 --> 00:45:57,070
humanity, you know, and it's just the viewpoint of humanity,

748
00:45:57,142 --> 00:46:00,830
humans that you're not going to change the DNA, and you

749
00:46:00,902 --> 00:46:04,074
need to raise that flag all the time.

750
00:46:04,814 --> 00:46:08,366
When I was. When I reached out to the AAV in

751
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:12,126
2000, I can't remember what social upheaval there was, but it was

752
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:15,430
early, two thousands. And I wanted to see if I could

753
00:46:15,462 --> 00:46:18,774
feature black owned winery wine in my

754
00:46:18,814 --> 00:46:22,628
club. And I found the association that just

755
00:46:22,676 --> 00:46:26,452
started, I guess, because it was like 2004, 2006 or something, and there

756
00:46:26,468 --> 00:46:30,060
were like five members, I mean, literally like five members that were making wines,

757
00:46:30,092 --> 00:46:33,464
and none of them made enough wine for my club selection.

758
00:46:33,884 --> 00:46:37,340
So then when I recontacted Angela

759
00:46:37,532 --> 00:46:40,756
for the show, and now there's 200 members of the

760
00:46:40,780 --> 00:46:44,340
association, and, you know, there should be more than that. And

761
00:46:44,452 --> 00:46:47,502
when I brought it up with my friends or other people in the community, the

762
00:46:47,518 --> 00:46:50,142
wine community, they're like, I didn't know that even existed. I didn't know that was

763
00:46:50,158 --> 00:46:53,234
a thing, you know, that there was such an association.

764
00:46:53,654 --> 00:46:57,430
And. But I think the prevailing theme when I was talking to everybody,

765
00:46:57,462 --> 00:47:01,294
there was like, we know that we're. We're

766
00:47:01,334 --> 00:47:05,126
representing ourselves as a black winery, but we'd prefer just to represent

767
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:08,830
ourselves as a winery when the time comes to do it, because we make really

768
00:47:08,862 --> 00:47:12,358
good wine and we make. There's a wide

769
00:47:12,446 --> 00:47:15,674
range of quality. Not quality, wide range of styles

770
00:47:16,044 --> 00:47:18,744
from Virginia to Napa.

771
00:47:19,764 --> 00:47:23,224
There was. There was a woman there. I couldn't believe this.

772
00:47:23,524 --> 00:47:26,384
And it's actually pretty good. But she makes

773
00:47:27,404 --> 00:47:30,308
a method champagne canned

774
00:47:30,476 --> 00:47:34,292
sparkler. Interesting. And so if

775
00:47:34,308 --> 00:47:37,996
you, if you take the next thought, like, okay, how you disgorge it, and she

776
00:47:38,020 --> 00:47:41,732
goes, I don't. I'm

777
00:47:41,748 --> 00:47:45,494
like, whoa, okay, so whatever. But it's really, it's really

778
00:47:45,534 --> 00:47:49,350
quite good. But anyway, the point being, we know we

779
00:47:49,382 --> 00:47:53,222
should continue to wave the flags and

780
00:47:53,278 --> 00:47:56,958
present the thing, but not, like you said, the leading element of

781
00:47:57,006 --> 00:48:00,454
that conversation, it should be, oh, by the way, this is a black owned winery,

782
00:48:00,494 --> 00:48:03,166
or this is a chinese owned winery, or this is a women owned winery or

783
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:06,710
women winemaker. So that the

784
00:48:06,742 --> 00:48:10,442
recognition exists, but you really want them to swirl that glass and

785
00:48:10,458 --> 00:48:13,938
go, wow, this is really good. Exactly. You know, just, I want my

786
00:48:13,986 --> 00:48:17,482
writing to speak for itself. When I give a presentation and

787
00:48:17,498 --> 00:48:21,050
look, you know, I think every person of color knows that

788
00:48:21,082 --> 00:48:24,474
look, I've experienced it. You know, when I walk to the front of the room,

789
00:48:24,514 --> 00:48:28,290
like, hey, welcome to the event. Like, oh, you're the presenter. Yo,

790
00:48:28,322 --> 00:48:30,254
girl, that looks kidding.

791
00:48:32,754 --> 00:48:36,170
But at the end of it, I wouldn't say, well, she was a great presenter.

792
00:48:36,202 --> 00:48:39,494
Like, oh, she was a great black wide presenter. Yeah.

793
00:48:40,514 --> 00:48:44,330
You know, and it's complicated. Look, our history is so young. You know,

794
00:48:44,482 --> 00:48:48,114
it wasn't that long ago that my mom was a little girl in Georgia

795
00:48:48,154 --> 00:48:51,890
attending segregated schools. So the past is never

796
00:48:51,922 --> 00:48:55,442
really the past, to quote Faulkner. Right. And this is our very recent

797
00:48:55,538 --> 00:48:59,034
history still. And like I said, we have a long way to

798
00:48:59,074 --> 00:49:02,438
go. And these organizations like AAA are important

799
00:49:02,526 --> 00:49:05,926
because the fact that it went from nine to now, 200

800
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:09,766
producers shows that by creating a structure where

801
00:49:09,790 --> 00:49:13,126
people can learn from each other, learn how to navigate from a

802
00:49:13,150 --> 00:49:16,434
supportive group, to help eliminate some of those roadblocks,

803
00:49:17,134 --> 00:49:20,446
it's important to have that. I think you're right. We're not a

804
00:49:20,470 --> 00:49:23,902
monolith. So you have to balance that group support with

805
00:49:24,078 --> 00:49:27,724
being able to be your individual self. And that's what I try to do.

806
00:49:27,854 --> 00:49:31,680
Where was your father a chef? Oh, you know, it's filled.

807
00:49:31,712 --> 00:49:35,216
My dad, had he. He came too soon, because he would have been a television

808
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,128
personality for sure. You got 10% of

809
00:49:39,136 --> 00:49:42,840
it. You're. You know,

810
00:49:42,872 --> 00:49:46,444
my dad's story was really interesting. He grew up in rural North Carolina,

811
00:49:47,264 --> 00:49:50,888
moved to New York as a teenager, went to Brandeis

812
00:49:50,936 --> 00:49:53,324
High School on the Upper west side. That's where.

813
00:49:54,134 --> 00:49:57,870
Yeah. And let's say, unlike me, my

814
00:49:57,902 --> 00:50:01,470
dad was not that into school. He was always cutting class,

815
00:50:01,582 --> 00:50:04,234
and his favorite thing to do is hang out at the

816
00:50:04,894 --> 00:50:08,314
library at Lincoln center and listen to old jazz albums.

817
00:50:09,134 --> 00:50:12,966
And there was a man in the neighborhood who was a chef. And one

818
00:50:12,990 --> 00:50:16,486
day he said to my dad, like, come here. I see you all the time.

819
00:50:16,590 --> 00:50:20,194
You don't seem like a bad kid. What are you doing? And

820
00:50:20,314 --> 00:50:24,122
he said to my dad, since you're not going to school anyway, I

821
00:50:24,138 --> 00:50:27,186
think, I don't remember if it was a week or two weeks. But anyway, he

822
00:50:27,210 --> 00:50:30,414
took my dad into the restaurant, and

823
00:50:30,754 --> 00:50:34,370
basically my dad apprenticed and discovered that he really

824
00:50:34,442 --> 00:50:38,154
loved being in the kitchen and he was good at it. So he never

825
00:50:38,194 --> 00:50:41,786
went to culinary school, but he worked his way up. And, you

826
00:50:41,810 --> 00:50:44,802
know, my favorite story is when he cooked for his fun day. And I was

827
00:50:44,818 --> 00:50:47,956
like, oh, dad, this video, beef stew is so good. He's like, that is Bouffe

828
00:50:47,980 --> 00:50:51,620
Bourguignon. So he really

829
00:50:51,692 --> 00:50:55,364
was a student of french classical cuisine.

830
00:50:55,484 --> 00:50:59,084
That was the foundation. But I always said I had the best of both

831
00:50:59,124 --> 00:51:02,564
worlds. He made the best north Carolina pulled pork

832
00:51:02,604 --> 00:51:06,420
barbecue I've ever had in my life. That's true. He also introduced me to Boeuf

833
00:51:06,452 --> 00:51:09,664
Bourguignon and Pate and wine.

834
00:51:11,124 --> 00:51:14,840
Yeah. He didn't work at any well known restaurants, most of them are

835
00:51:14,872 --> 00:51:18,320
probably Kohl's now, you know, the nature of it in New York, but that's how

836
00:51:18,352 --> 00:51:22,104
he supported us. You know, that's a very french thing to do,

837
00:51:22,144 --> 00:51:25,656
which is, you know, they kind of have to declare at some point we're not

838
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,496
going to go to college. We're going to either be a chef. I just got

839
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,256
done with a podcast with Frederick Caston, who's exactly the same story, except

840
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,032
in Avignon instead of New York. But basically, you know, in the

841
00:51:36,048 --> 00:51:39,604
wine industry, it's like that, too. You can sell her out your way to

842
00:51:40,424 --> 00:51:44,166
being the winemaker, or you can go through, you know, Cornell

843
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:47,554
White school or UC Davis and figure that out. But

844
00:51:48,854 --> 00:51:52,670
what would he say about the kitchen environment? Was it less

845
00:51:52,822 --> 00:51:55,594
racist? Was it more accepting?

846
00:51:56,294 --> 00:51:59,354
Oh, interesting. I mean, I think definitely,

847
00:52:00,694 --> 00:52:04,502
you know, at that time, I know he definitely had experiences.

848
00:52:04,598 --> 00:52:08,366
I've heard about them. I think,

849
00:52:08,430 --> 00:52:11,430
you know, I must have inherited this from him. Like, it's not going to keep

850
00:52:11,462 --> 00:52:15,086
me from doing a thing I love and I think I'm pretty good at, and

851
00:52:15,110 --> 00:52:17,994
I want to keep getting better. So he kept showing up,

852
00:52:18,934 --> 00:52:21,830
but I know he had challenges. And I said to him, I said, dad, you're

853
00:52:21,862 --> 00:52:25,102
so mean in the kitchen. Like, when I would go visit him at work. But

854
00:52:25,198 --> 00:52:28,230
I think he never wanted. He wanted to have that

855
00:52:28,262 --> 00:52:31,534
authority. It was important for he was

856
00:52:31,574 --> 00:52:35,142
running that. He was running the kitchen. And

857
00:52:35,238 --> 00:52:38,754
sometimes the people, most of the people that he supervised

858
00:52:39,134 --> 00:52:42,902
weren't black. Right. So was a diverse crew in the

859
00:52:42,918 --> 00:52:46,606
kitchen. So he wanted. It was very important for him to have

860
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:50,302
that presence of, I'm not your best friend.

861
00:52:50,398 --> 00:52:54,006
I'm the leader. And for many people, that might have been the first time

862
00:52:54,070 --> 00:52:57,902
they encountered a person of color who was the authority figure.

863
00:52:58,078 --> 00:53:01,634
Right. I can see that. And now it's much more common.

864
00:53:02,534 --> 00:53:06,022
But when he was doing it, not so much. Well, you think about it, the

865
00:53:06,038 --> 00:53:09,766
kitchen environment, like I said, my daughter was a. Worked at the

866
00:53:09,790 --> 00:53:13,034
Lincoln restaurant. You know, almost every chef

867
00:53:14,254 --> 00:53:17,846
that's celebrated today in their heyday was like

868
00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:21,566
that. You had to, because think about the line chef, the sous

869
00:53:21,590 --> 00:53:24,754
chef, the line cook, the saucier. These people

870
00:53:25,254 --> 00:53:28,990
most probably don't give a crap about anything, right? And so if you let them

871
00:53:29,062 --> 00:53:32,894
to their own, to their own leading, you're going to end up with

872
00:53:33,014 --> 00:53:36,678
a poor product. And so it takes an authoritative figure

873
00:53:36,766 --> 00:53:40,606
to manhandle the kitchen to make sure it comes out

874
00:53:40,630 --> 00:53:44,294
the way the leader wants it to come out, because once that plate

875
00:53:44,334 --> 00:53:47,630
leaves the kitchen, it's a representation of that

876
00:53:47,662 --> 00:53:51,446
person. How much his

877
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:55,046
team respected him. Right. You know, so.

878
00:53:55,150 --> 00:53:58,734
Yeah, but definitely, I think you're right. I inherited a lot of that. I just

879
00:53:58,774 --> 00:54:02,282
use it in wine. My cooking is decent, but. Well, but you're

880
00:54:02,338 --> 00:54:06,082
Ladame d'Escoffier. I mean, the father of

881
00:54:06,098 --> 00:54:09,626
french food. Your dad had to be proud of that, you know? So.

882
00:54:09,770 --> 00:54:13,346
Yes, for sure. For sure. I

883
00:54:13,370 --> 00:54:17,018
find the wine trade very similar to the

884
00:54:17,066 --> 00:54:20,826
hospital food trade because it is hospitality. When it's all said

885
00:54:20,850 --> 00:54:24,050
and done, we try to put out a product that people are going to appreciate

886
00:54:24,162 --> 00:54:27,666
and bring people together that they talk about. And that's the one thing about wine

887
00:54:27,690 --> 00:54:31,304
that's such a fascinating. I'm sure it's with you,

888
00:54:31,384 --> 00:54:35,232
whether you're sitting at dinner with your best friends who understand a little bit

889
00:54:35,248 --> 00:54:38,324
about wine because you've been hanging around them for a while or

890
00:54:38,784 --> 00:54:42,272
somebody you've never met before, but the conversation

891
00:54:42,368 --> 00:54:46,112
always comes to what's in that glass. Yeah.

892
00:54:46,208 --> 00:54:49,672
And then they like to throw out something that they learned that they know, and

893
00:54:49,688 --> 00:54:53,432
all of a sudden, this unintimidating, unthreatening conversation

894
00:54:53,488 --> 00:54:56,988
of wine happens. And I love

895
00:54:57,036 --> 00:55:00,364
that. Yeah. And I try not to be like the know it

896
00:55:00,404 --> 00:55:03,980
all. Cause I'm not. But I like to move the

897
00:55:04,012 --> 00:55:07,828
conversation forward because it's. It really is. It's not political. You

898
00:55:07,836 --> 00:55:11,652
don't have to worry about, you know, offending anybody about making, you know,

899
00:55:11,708 --> 00:55:15,064
disparaging comments. You can just talk about it.

900
00:55:15,924 --> 00:55:19,716
Yeah. I think as human beings, you know, we're drawn to ritual as well.

901
00:55:19,780 --> 00:55:23,184
Right. And everyone is so busy, more of us are working from home.

902
00:55:23,634 --> 00:55:27,234
So the ritual of sitting at a table, sharing a bottle

903
00:55:27,354 --> 00:55:30,922
is something that I think is primal in us. And

904
00:55:30,978 --> 00:55:34,570
wine kind of forces us to take that time out and

905
00:55:34,602 --> 00:55:38,354
savor the moment, the conversation. We're so much to go.

906
00:55:38,394 --> 00:55:41,922
A grab and go culture. You grab your coffee, you grab a slice, and you

907
00:55:41,938 --> 00:55:45,570
eat it walking down the street. And wine kind of

908
00:55:45,602 --> 00:55:49,242
forces us in a very beautiful way to remember what it's like just to be

909
00:55:49,258 --> 00:55:52,910
together. True. Such

910
00:55:52,942 --> 00:55:56,614
a. You were already at our time, which is unbelievable.

911
00:55:56,774 --> 00:56:00,622
With so much to talk about, but a fascinating conversation.

912
00:56:00,678 --> 00:56:04,474
I hope we can do it again. Yes. Hopefully in person one day.

913
00:56:04,774 --> 00:56:08,366
Yeah. We have not plans to get to Manhattan in the near

914
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:12,234
future, unfortunately. They used to love doing that to visit my daughter. But

915
00:56:13,534 --> 00:56:17,298
we're always in Napa, and we'll keep tabs of each other. And

916
00:56:17,306 --> 00:56:21,090
if I love, I take my little portable studio up to Yonville and I just

917
00:56:21,122 --> 00:56:24,890
sit in the hotel conference room, and we do podcasts many

918
00:56:24,922 --> 00:56:28,666
times up there, so we'll just keep tabs and see what

919
00:56:28,690 --> 00:56:31,362
your travel plans are next time you're up there. We could be up there as

920
00:56:31,378 --> 00:56:34,174
well. Sounds like a plan for sure.

921
00:56:35,034 --> 00:56:38,854
Thank you for the time today and cheers. Cheers.

922
00:56:48,234 --> 00:56:52,074
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum. Caryn, don't forget to subscribe

923
00:56:52,114 --> 00:56:55,826
because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have

924
00:56:55,850 --> 00:56:58,274
a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.