Persistance Is Grit. Monika Has Grit. Meet Monika Elling.

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Carson Leno,

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in

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beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Monica Elling,

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the fractional CMO and the CEO of

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FMG Corporation. Introductions in just a moment.

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Wine talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify, wherever you hang out for

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podcasting. Hey, have a listen to an incredible

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conversation I had with Julie Hernandez. Now

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we're going to talk about women in wine today. But Julie came to me

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about 20 years ago working for RN DC, one of the

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great suppliers of wine in America, and she. I thought,

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there's no way she's going to make this industry. It's too tough, it's too hard.

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She ended up becoming a local executive here in Southern California and one of the

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great allies of the original wine of the month club. So it's a great conversation

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about her headwinds and being a mother at the same time. And also a

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conversation with Paul Warson. Anybody

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that doesn't know this is probably not

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alone because there's a winery in Beverly Hills. It's about

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nine acres of planted vineyards. It's called Moraga. It's owned now

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by the great Rupert Murdoch.

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Incredible. You walk into the gates of this place

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and all of a sudden you're in a whole different world. You're not off the

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four or five freeway, you're not off the ten freeway. You are in the middle

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of what would be wine country, surrounded by vineyards, winery,

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tasting room, residence. The whole thing is there and the wines are

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very good. A great conversation with Paul Worsten. Have a listen to that.

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Hey, I'm going to start working on the show a little more in the sense

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of I am. We're not going to pull any punches. We are going to go

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after this industry. There's so many, I don't know, so many prongs

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of it that are bothering me. And having done this for 50

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years, I've just got issues I want to peel

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back. And so we're going to take those two to the head right now with

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a conversation with Monica Elling. She's the CEO of

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FMG. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Paul. Lovely to

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be here. We had a great conversation off camera before we got started,

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but I'm looking at your profile on LinkedIn,

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nutritional psychologist, digital marketeer. The

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conversation we had last week about the projects you're working on, it's amazing.

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How much time do you have in a day to do all these things?

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I'm a mother of three, so I can do anything. As

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any mom would know, you managed to juggle everything

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all at once. You know, it's kind of interesting you say that, because

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the woman I was just talking about, Julie Hernandez, she has triplets.

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And so. Boy, you talk about compounding the amount of work you have

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to do because they're all on the same schedule. Not the same schedule,

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because none of them are on the same schedule. Right. That's almost impossible.

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It would be nice. Yes. Are you, you're out in New York?

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I am in Manhattan, yes. You know, we didn't talk about this last

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time, but what, what does your day look like when you start? You're up. You

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probably, I don't know. Many of us don't sleep because we're worried about what's

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happening the next day. But what is it? What does your regular day look like?

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At FMG, I do have a

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fairly serious morning routine.

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I tend to follow the same protocol,

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and it's been something that's been drilled into me as an athlete. When

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I was in my early teens, I was a tennis player,

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nationally ranked, and then d one. So the discipline

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of all of that has stayed with me, and it's been very helpful in

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my life. I tend to go for run over

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workouts. I do have meditation breath work

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in the, in the mix. And I really

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then structure my day based on what I've

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already planned for the week and what goals I want to accomplish. And I just

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revisit all of that. And nice cup of coffee to get

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me started. It's funny, this morning I responded to something.

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I can't remember what it was on LinkedIn. I go, yeah, after my cup of

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coffee, then I can get started on your, your idea here. But

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interesting thought, we didn't discuss this either. As an

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athlete ranked tennis player,

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how much of those lessons did you carry forward? And I'll tell you a story

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in a second, but do you teach that to your kids, too?

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To use athleticism and the discipline

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of that to move, to move the needle entirely?

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I think it doesn't matter what level of athletics you

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participate in. Some of that mindset and

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structure and training is helpful for life. In my

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case, it was pretty rigorous. And as a d one player, we had a

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full year season, so I hardly had any time off during those

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years. When I finished playing

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for the university, I made a decision

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not to go pro. I wanted a real life. I was ready for that.

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But then I couldn't find anybody to play with. So then I had this

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brilliant idea that I would have some children and

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train them to beat me. And two out of

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three worked. I raised two nationally ranked

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athletes out of the three, and one in tennis,

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one in swimming, and all four of us play,

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and there's intense in house

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competition. That's great. It's such an important

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lesson, and I glossed over that last time we spoke about your

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career in athleticism. But it's such an important part of. I have

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a daughter who, her first year in college, decided she wanted to be in the

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band. And I said, well, you should probably play an instrument.

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And because of her discipline through her career in

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softball, she got herself on the band because she

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practiced what she needed to practice and was able to march on the field.

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So such important lessons to learn through athleticism

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in our youth. And I wonder if that's glossed over. You think that's missed by

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a lot. Of parents or 100%, 100% misunderstood. And

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so it doesn't matter what road you

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travel, you carry that with you. That mindset, the

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resilience. Tennis, particularly, is harsh.

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And it was interesting. My son was a nationally ranked swimmer from the time he

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was six, and that's a grueling

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discipline. But when he turned to playing tennis after

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swimming, he walked off his first match. And

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essentially, and I'm paraphrasing here, but basically he said,

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mom, you never told me. It's torture all the way, and I'm aware

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of it with all the ups and downs in the match. You're up,

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you're down. He said, I'm swimming. I just jump in. I come

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out the end of the pool and I look up my time.

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And so there is a

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rigor in that mindset. There is a focus

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that you learn and you

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develop grit. You have to come back. It's never over.

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That's right. That's a very good point. You can't walk away.

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So I'm done. I'm going to give up and you just can't do it. So

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you guys playing pickleball now over there at the LA household? Yeah.

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You know, that's an interesting question. I am not there.

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Tennis is. It's a very

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serious sport, and I'm not ready to

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dumb it down. I love the fact that people are

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playing a racket sport. That's great.

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But when you put in as much time as I have into the sport, I'm

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not really ready to give that part of it up. Okay, that's funny.

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We did. I did put a pickleball court in our home because we had this

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giant slab and we never knew what to do with it. It worked perfectly. I

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haven't used it very much in the last year. However, we did have a

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Sunday afternoon burger bash and brought some friends over who

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are, you know, tied to it. It's almost a religion now.

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People get in their car and they drive miles to go, just jump in and

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play. And I will say it's a lot of fun.

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Anybody can jump in and just play. You know, you don't. You may not

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compete very, you know, rigorously, but

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at least you can feel like you're participating in something. And tennis

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is, you know, much harder. But there are certain, certainly there's skills. That cross

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over 100%, and it's great

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that people are moving and enjoying that part of

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the process. So I'm all for anything that

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makes people move and get out of their chairs and away from their

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computers. So. Oh, thank you for that.

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So you said something, too. I wanted to peel back a little bit. You said,

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d one athlete. And I sent many, many kids

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from my coaching sets years to

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college, and I coached girls softball for years, high school.

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And many, many girls went through, and it was very important

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for a handful of them to survive the whole four

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years to finish their career. Softball at that time, or

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athleticism created their foundation for their college studies

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and for their experience in college. And others at the same

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time realized that there was more to it and they wanted

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to, and they maybe played a year or two and they moved on, saying,

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basically, I'd like more arrows in my quiver other than just

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the game. So did you see that through your

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career and with your children that there's. Yes, we want to

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maximize the value of the relationship with the sport, but there are times

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where we just say, look, it's time for other things. Absolutely.

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And in my case, I made that

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exact decision. I played three out of the four years. I had

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a double major. Everybody on my team was going five

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years to school. I didn't want that. I made that decision not to

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go pro at that point. I realized, okay, then I'm going to

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finish out with my third year. I happened to be undefeated at that

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point, and so I felt I might

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as well just go out on top. And unfortunately, my coach

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was not happy because we had to win five out of nine

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matches, and I brought home two wins in every match,

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singles and bowls. So that was a detriment to the

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team. But I was ready to begin my life and I just wanted to

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complete school. So. So you made that decision. It's a tough decision.

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Very tough. Very, very tough. It's been such a part of my life up

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to that point. So I'm looking at your

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LinkedIn profile here. The CEO, founder of

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Fractional, I'm sorry, FMG, but you

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also. You talk about wine and spirits, talk about brand strategy, talk about strategic digital

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marketing, nutritional psychology. I mean, you cover quite

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a plethora of subjects here for your career. And it's very fascinating that

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we landed in wines and spirits. And it's, as you know,

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there's this camaraderie, there's this, there's this. I don't know, maybe it's the

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lifestyle. You know, we're going to Europe next month and

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we've been greeted all over the world by Bordeaux houses and

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Piemonte, et cetera, et cetera. What landed you there?

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And was it something you aspired to do, or you just found yourself

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there? I was just a long answer.

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I had no idea about the wine and spirits business as

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such. I started out in marketing, Madison Avenue

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advertising, publishing, and I had the good fortune

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of working in my early days

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with Michelle Ru of Absaltwake.

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He was my client. I was determined to bring him into our

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publication. And I saw up close

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and personal how a brand can be brought

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to life. In that case, a spirit's brand.

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And that was not something that was done

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previously, not to such level. So absolute, really made

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waves at that time. And I learned a

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lot, but I sort of checked it in the back of my mind.

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I did about ten years of nonprofit international trade

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and investment development with central and eastern Europe,

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primarily. And it was during that time that I was

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working with some of

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the greatest brands that were coming into the region for investment.

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There was Antonori. So my first

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vineyard walk was with Tigor Gall of Ornalaya. He was the

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first 100 point wine maker in the history of wine, which

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was a wonderful way to get into the business. And then

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Jean Michel kest vax, Melissa May, and many of that

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ilk. So I looked up a year later and I wound

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up in the wine business. Well,

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because for me, I really. I was around all my

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life, but until my father said, look, I'm going to sell, I'm going to get

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out. You should come back and check this out. But even

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then, after ten years of selling wine, it was still,

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like I say, it was work. I'm going to say it was a task

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to make sure that we were on track, doing the things, checking the boxes that

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we were supposed to do in order to market wine. But

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at some point, it crossed over into this passion and this love

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affair with the industry and the brand. And so you mentioned something

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interesting that you worked with Michel Roux of

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absolute. I mean, branding, is that a formula? I mean,

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people, and I want to kind of define this a little bit because everybody talks

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about branding and, you know, brand managers, and I'm going to create

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a brand, and that's not a rock solid thing. This is

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sort of an open field to understanding how an

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absolute becomes a brand or how you create a couple

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of brands on your surface. There.

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There's no formula for this. Or is this something that if you do the right

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things, you will have a brand? If there were an exact

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formula, everyone would be doing it and everybody would do it right.

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Creativity and everybody could win all the time.

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That is not the case. The consistency from my

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career path and my vision for

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my career had to do with

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psychology. And this is what brings it all

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together. So on the psychology side, it's

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about behavior. It's about consumer behavior

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in my mind. And that was at the root of many

240
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things I did thereafter. So my initial

241
00:14:45,866 --> 00:14:49,692
background is in psychology. And as I went

242
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to the business side of things, I started to

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apply consumer behavior in reaction to

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products, in reaction to how we sell the

245
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sales process. All of those things combined together

246
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are what fascinates me, and it keeps me

247
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excited about brand creation, brand strategy, brand

248
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development, voice of the brand. And

249
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yes, over 20 some odd years, I've honed into

250
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the process that I believe is ensuring maximum

251
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success. And when you talk about digital and all

252
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these other aspects of it, I saw that technology

253
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was going to have a massive impact on that brand

254
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building and that consumer communication

255
00:15:37,724 --> 00:15:41,568
that is all very consistent with what is the

256
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end game. The end game is to create a brand that consumers

257
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will love and create the

258
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communication and that relationship between the brand and the

259
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consumer. In the wine and spirits industry, we have all this noise,

260
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this infrastructure in between that everyone is

261
00:15:59,712 --> 00:16:03,560
derailed by. And unfortunately for specifically

262
00:16:03,592 --> 00:16:07,428
the wine industry, there's so much talk about the trade side

263
00:16:07,476 --> 00:16:11,204
of things I don't know that any producer in Europe actually

264
00:16:11,284 --> 00:16:14,812
understands. The 44 year old woman who has three

265
00:16:14,868 --> 00:16:18,540
kids, two dogs, drives an Audi, and is

266
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going to shop for dinner at her store

267
00:16:21,916 --> 00:16:25,724
in Rochester, Minnesota. So how

268
00:16:25,804 --> 00:16:29,108
are we supposed to create consumer products in this

269
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industry when we don't know anything about the consumer

270
00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:36,764
journey and how they are perceiving

271
00:16:37,144 --> 00:16:39,964
whatever products are being sold to them in this space?

272
00:16:41,104 --> 00:16:44,536
That's an interesting concept because

273
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,232
you said a mouthful of issues that we have in our industry, one of them

274
00:16:48,248 --> 00:16:51,688
being the noise that's out there. So it seems

275
00:16:51,736 --> 00:16:55,368
like some brands, either because their

276
00:16:55,416 --> 00:16:59,152
psychology isn't properly managed or understood, are

277
00:16:59,168 --> 00:17:02,926
just doomed to failure from the beginning. I've seen it many times and I'm

278
00:17:02,950 --> 00:17:06,354
wondering if you think that's because this path

279
00:17:06,734 --> 00:17:10,502
and their client was not properly understood or there was just a

280
00:17:10,598 --> 00:17:13,862
dumb idea from the beginning that nobody really would have taken to it in the

281
00:17:13,878 --> 00:17:17,566
first place. So I'll give you an example

282
00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:21,374
of a fail. I was not using any names, but go ahead.

283
00:17:21,454 --> 00:17:25,234
No, there's no name. And this is speaking to

284
00:17:26,334 --> 00:17:29,946
the industry. They will recognize themselves. And I'm not

285
00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:33,322
talking about a specific brand. There's way too much of this going

286
00:17:33,378 --> 00:17:37,226
on. Two guys walk into a bar, slap each other in the back, hey,

287
00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:40,962
we should have a vodka brand or whatever brand. Great. Wonderful. That's the

288
00:17:40,978 --> 00:17:44,162
beginning of a joke, right? Two guys walk into a bar, but. That'S happening all

289
00:17:44,178 --> 00:17:47,254
the time. And then there's some

290
00:17:47,754 --> 00:17:51,538
funding mechanism behind them. Two girls walk into a bar

291
00:17:51,586 --> 00:17:55,410
and they go, oh, it's a whole different conversation. And they don't get

292
00:17:55,442 --> 00:17:59,154
funded, but we'll get there. The

293
00:18:00,254 --> 00:18:03,982
ideation occurs. They think they have a brilliant idea

294
00:18:04,038 --> 00:18:07,142
about a brand. They think it's wonderful

295
00:18:07,318 --> 00:18:10,926
and they start to create the

296
00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:14,582
product they're going to market. Now they're even

297
00:18:14,638 --> 00:18:18,254
convincing distributors to take on a product. What they

298
00:18:18,294 --> 00:18:21,354
don't understand very often

299
00:18:22,234 --> 00:18:25,242
is they miss the core aspect of the brand

300
00:18:25,418 --> 00:18:28,978
creation journey, which is an incredibly

301
00:18:29,106 --> 00:18:32,610
serious process. It's artistic, it's

302
00:18:32,642 --> 00:18:36,274
scientific, it's a lot of different aspects.

303
00:18:36,394 --> 00:18:40,210
So what happens is now they finally get their

304
00:18:40,242 --> 00:18:43,654
product into a bar, they're all excited.

305
00:18:44,034 --> 00:18:47,758
Consumer comes in and somebody that

306
00:18:47,946 --> 00:18:51,654
is friendly to that brand, so they want to support them. But

307
00:18:51,694 --> 00:18:55,390
now they have a call name, they're trying to get

308
00:18:55,422 --> 00:18:59,222
the attention of a bartender with, and it's unpronounceable

309
00:18:59,398 --> 00:19:03,206
or it's a lie long or it's, can I have

310
00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:06,934
a red herring, blue, whatever,

311
00:19:07,054 --> 00:19:10,798
on the rocks, please? And it's like, what were you

312
00:19:10,846 --> 00:19:14,654
thinking when you created the brand? How do you think your consumer is going to

313
00:19:14,694 --> 00:19:17,984
address that brand in a bar or

314
00:19:18,444 --> 00:19:22,188
in such an environment? So there are a lot of things missed in

315
00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:25,620
the wine arena. There are examples

316
00:19:25,692 --> 00:19:29,356
of bigger problems because the idea

317
00:19:29,420 --> 00:19:33,180
that something has to have the proper name and connectivity

318
00:19:33,252 --> 00:19:36,700
to a consumer, that's not what they're thinking about. They're thinking about,

319
00:19:36,852 --> 00:19:40,340
well, we want to have a line extension. Let's put this name on it. That

320
00:19:40,372 --> 00:19:44,080
sounds good. They might get a relative to create the

321
00:19:44,112 --> 00:19:47,896
label, they might have their niece or nephew give

322
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,400
it the brand name or the grandmother. And

323
00:19:51,472 --> 00:19:55,064
I'm being to some degree facetious here, but I have seen all

324
00:19:55,104 --> 00:19:58,544
those examples live. And then people

325
00:19:58,624 --> 00:20:02,284
wonder why the sales strategy is not working.

326
00:20:03,944 --> 00:20:07,788
It's because nobody wants that particular product

327
00:20:07,876 --> 00:20:11,540
and you're not communicating appropriately. And that's from the starting

328
00:20:11,572 --> 00:20:14,588
point of the brand name and the brand

329
00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:18,396
ethos. He says, you made me think of something, and I just

330
00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:21,292
had this experience a few years ago. I've seen it a thousand times. And you

331
00:20:21,308 --> 00:20:24,944
and I are not new to this story, I'm going to tell you. But

332
00:20:26,844 --> 00:20:30,572
maybe because the wine industry is so sophisticated, it's so complex, and

333
00:20:30,588 --> 00:20:34,126
it's so congested that the idea of

334
00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:38,114
this launching a brand without some of this psychology

335
00:20:38,194 --> 00:20:41,826
understood and some of the path of the consumer understood that it's

336
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:45,426
almost, it's a zero chance crapshoot unless there's

337
00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:48,754
something absolutely unique about it that

338
00:20:48,794 --> 00:20:52,170
you make it happen. The reason I brought that up is I had a vendor

339
00:20:52,202 --> 00:20:55,786
come in years ago, and he was from a local Appalachian here in southern

340
00:20:55,810 --> 00:20:59,082
California, so one that doesn't have a lot of pedigree like Napa or

341
00:20:59,098 --> 00:21:02,902
Sonoma. And he shows me this brand and he

342
00:21:02,918 --> 00:21:06,126
wanted pretty good money for it. It was called sleeping

343
00:21:06,190 --> 00:21:09,622
Indian, you know, so not the brightest thing in the world as far as, you

344
00:21:09,638 --> 00:21:13,222
know, today's environment of, you know, wokeness.

345
00:21:13,358 --> 00:21:17,182
And the label was horrible and the wines were average. And I said, it

346
00:21:17,198 --> 00:21:20,950
looks like your daughter drew this on a computer.

347
00:21:20,982 --> 00:21:24,542
And he goes, she did? And I

348
00:21:24,558 --> 00:21:28,146
thought, based on what you just said, I'm thinking the guy

349
00:21:28,170 --> 00:21:31,250
had no chance. And I told him this and he was offended by it. But

350
00:21:31,282 --> 00:21:33,810
I wanted to be honest with him. I said, look, you might as well just

351
00:21:33,842 --> 00:21:37,650
stick to your local market, sell it to the restaurants and the local stores and

352
00:21:37,682 --> 00:21:39,762
be on your way. But if you want to go corporate and you want to

353
00:21:39,778 --> 00:21:42,854
go national, you ain't going to do it with

354
00:21:43,154 --> 00:21:46,374
sleeping indian and a label that looks like this,

355
00:21:46,874 --> 00:21:50,258
besides the distribution complications. So the point

356
00:21:50,306 --> 00:21:53,522
being, man, it's an absolute

357
00:21:53,618 --> 00:21:57,096
0% crapshoot if you don't have some kind of

358
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,024
legs behind you. Psychology, branding, I mean, you know,

359
00:22:01,064 --> 00:22:04,720
demographic understanding. I mean, you made a great point. A 44 year old

360
00:22:04,752 --> 00:22:08,304
woman with three kids going shopping, you know, what's. What are the, what are the

361
00:22:08,344 --> 00:22:12,004
decision criteria from that woman to buy something?

362
00:22:12,984 --> 00:22:16,784
And it gets, it gets a little bit trickier because you

363
00:22:16,824 --> 00:22:20,200
have now 50 states producing wine. The

364
00:22:20,232 --> 00:22:23,672
distributors won't take on those wines that are not

365
00:22:23,728 --> 00:22:26,784
from California, Washington, Oregon,

366
00:22:26,904 --> 00:22:30,616
basically, no other state will

367
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,064
work with distribution and that's their philosophy.

368
00:22:34,224 --> 00:22:37,904
And now some of those wineries are fighting

369
00:22:37,984 --> 00:22:41,304
the state regulations so that they can distribute themselves

370
00:22:41,424 --> 00:22:44,888
appropriately to get to market, because even their own state

371
00:22:44,936 --> 00:22:48,568
distributors won't. The missing

372
00:22:48,736 --> 00:22:52,160
link for, for those wineries within those states is

373
00:22:52,192 --> 00:22:55,240
that they do make

374
00:22:55,352 --> 00:22:59,104
decisions such as what you and I just described about

375
00:22:59,144 --> 00:23:02,480
their branding or, oh, we love this, this looks great.

376
00:23:02,592 --> 00:23:06,232
And there's absolutely no professional knowledge

377
00:23:06,288 --> 00:23:10,048
behind it. And why should the consumer care?

378
00:23:10,216 --> 00:23:13,456
So they're fighting an uphill battle even in their own

379
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,160
states, if they really don't produce the

380
00:23:17,192 --> 00:23:20,900
caliber of production that competes on a national basis. Because

381
00:23:20,932 --> 00:23:24,644
the consumer doesn't care about these arkeme regulations and barriers.

382
00:23:24,764 --> 00:23:28,300
All they know is there is this really nice looking wine from

383
00:23:28,412 --> 00:23:31,892
California, perhaps, and there's a great one from

384
00:23:31,948 --> 00:23:35,540
Spain, and then there's this really ugly label from our local

385
00:23:35,612 --> 00:23:39,424
market. Now, why should we pay for that? So

386
00:23:39,724 --> 00:23:42,932
if the wineries within the other

387
00:23:42,988 --> 00:23:46,514
47 states want to start competing for consumer

388
00:23:46,594 --> 00:23:50,330
interest, they have to up the game of how they come

389
00:23:50,362 --> 00:23:54,058
to market with their brand lineups. And it's

390
00:23:54,106 --> 00:23:57,930
not enough to say that, you know, the buses of tourists that are coming into

391
00:23:57,962 --> 00:24:01,778
the tasting room are satisfied that they love our product.

392
00:24:01,906 --> 00:24:05,498
No. Go do a blind tasting and then go do a packaging

393
00:24:05,546 --> 00:24:08,658
comparison with global market

394
00:24:08,746 --> 00:24:12,572
brands and frankly, take those results

395
00:24:12,668 --> 00:24:16,508
home and then do something about it. You

396
00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:20,324
know, you're just like hitting these points

397
00:24:20,404 --> 00:24:24,116
that have the back of my mind. I just got done with a

398
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:27,956
tasting. The label was horrible. The wines were decent. And he took the

399
00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:31,500
wine to a local distributor and the guy says, look,

400
00:24:31,532 --> 00:24:34,780
I know it was another tasting room. The guy says, look, I'm

401
00:24:34,812 --> 00:24:38,260
selling all I can sell because people, the

402
00:24:38,292 --> 00:24:42,116
busloads of people are coming here and they're buying it. And that kind of

403
00:24:42,140 --> 00:24:45,744
leads to this experiential part of wine today.

404
00:24:46,644 --> 00:24:49,584
I know you're a digital marketer, we're going to talk about that now. But

405
00:24:50,604 --> 00:24:53,356
a couple of things that you mentioned that really important before we get to that

406
00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:56,996
one is the label design. Like I said, this guy's label was drawn by his

407
00:24:57,020 --> 00:25:00,732
daughter on a computer. I bought wine from Sebastiani probably 20

408
00:25:00,788 --> 00:25:04,452
years ago. Beautiful Cabernet franchise, already bottled. They didn't market it

409
00:25:04,468 --> 00:25:08,060
because they actually had the three year old daughter playing on a

410
00:25:08,092 --> 00:25:11,424
Mac and she designed a label and it never took off. So

411
00:25:11,884 --> 00:25:15,612
they just stored at the back of the warehouse. Wine was great, by the way.

412
00:25:15,708 --> 00:25:19,324
But Mike Houlihan, who founded the brand barefoot

413
00:25:19,364 --> 00:25:23,188
Sellers, had learned a lesson from the

414
00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:26,924
thrifty which back then, Rexall drugs, thrifty

415
00:25:26,964 --> 00:25:30,220
drugs before the cvs is in the writings of the world. One of the

416
00:25:30,252 --> 00:25:33,986
biggest pharmacy change was called thrifty. They're known

417
00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:37,754
for their ice cream. You go to Rite Aid now they have thrifty ice cream

418
00:25:37,794 --> 00:25:41,418
still. And he says, the buyer said, look, I want

419
00:25:41,466 --> 00:25:45,266
to be, if I'm a mother and I'm walking down the

420
00:25:45,290 --> 00:25:48,730
aisle, I want to be able to see that label from four stalls

421
00:25:48,762 --> 00:25:52,362
away. I want to be directed to your brett. So when you bring me a

422
00:25:52,378 --> 00:25:55,706
wine that looks that I will recognize four steps

423
00:25:55,730 --> 00:25:59,330
away, then I'll take a look at it and I go, wow, that's a

424
00:25:59,362 --> 00:26:02,762
really interesting thing. That is probably true today to a certain

425
00:26:02,858 --> 00:26:06,210
percent, 100%. So when we design, so we

426
00:26:06,242 --> 00:26:09,814
design great brands, beautiful packaging,

427
00:26:10,874 --> 00:26:14,546
and we design it with the mindset of

428
00:26:14,610 --> 00:26:18,138
the digital shelf. It has to have instant impact

429
00:26:18,306 --> 00:26:22,106
when people see it online, has to be memorable

430
00:26:22,170 --> 00:26:25,922
there, and the physical shelf, so it has to work in both

431
00:26:25,978 --> 00:26:29,786
ways. And that is something

432
00:26:29,890 --> 00:26:33,694
that I can't stress enough.

433
00:26:34,554 --> 00:26:38,210
There's no way of getting around it. The failure of

434
00:26:38,242 --> 00:26:41,906
that had never ceased to amaze me. On Tuesdays, when I

435
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:45,418
tasted you look at them, it's like, what do you think? And I already

436
00:26:45,466 --> 00:26:49,258
know I have a label designer, Pasar Robles. She was charging, I

437
00:26:49,266 --> 00:26:52,050
don't know, twelve or fifteen hundred dollars a label, depending on the amount of work.

438
00:26:52,082 --> 00:26:55,650
And that that would include whether you wanted an embossed or a

439
00:26:55,802 --> 00:26:59,570
foil overlay or whatever. You have certain paper type, ink

440
00:26:59,602 --> 00:27:03,254
type. It wasn't an expensive proposition

441
00:27:04,234 --> 00:27:07,946
other than having your three year old daughter on a Mac. And every

442
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:11,730
time I see a label that's just got no criteria at all, I

443
00:27:11,762 --> 00:27:15,574
just cringe. Now, I know in Napa you can spend

444
00:27:15,614 --> 00:27:18,822
five, 7810 thousand dollars designing a label. Six

445
00:27:18,878 --> 00:27:22,630
figures, yeah, six figures. Six figures. And

446
00:27:22,702 --> 00:27:26,510
it's not just designing a bottle, you're creating the

447
00:27:26,542 --> 00:27:29,914
brand and designing a label

448
00:27:31,054 --> 00:27:34,846
that you could, you could do that, anybody could do

449
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:38,470
that. With today's day and age of technology, you could do that.

450
00:27:38,622 --> 00:27:42,390
Creating a brand is a whole different proposition. I'll

451
00:27:42,422 --> 00:27:46,182
tell you that. In 2017, we created a spirits

452
00:27:46,238 --> 00:27:49,950
brand that had a multi hundred million dollar exit five

453
00:27:50,022 --> 00:27:53,686
years later. And it wasn't just a brand, because it

454
00:27:53,710 --> 00:27:57,198
begins with the strategy, what are you creating a brand for?

455
00:27:57,366 --> 00:28:00,894
Who are you creating it for? That's the starting

456
00:28:00,934 --> 00:28:04,478
point. So you better understand

457
00:28:04,606 --> 00:28:08,434
and be able to create the strategy. And that's a business

458
00:28:09,194 --> 00:28:12,906
acumen and marketing skill which is

459
00:28:12,970 --> 00:28:16,730
not the same as design. That's true. So those are

460
00:28:16,762 --> 00:28:20,362
two different sides. And then, and then you take the strategy.

461
00:28:20,418 --> 00:28:23,578
Now, what's going to get us to win with that

462
00:28:23,746 --> 00:28:27,218
direction? And so it begins with the

463
00:28:27,266 --> 00:28:30,698
analysis, what's the opportunity? What's the market opportunity?

464
00:28:30,826 --> 00:28:34,450
What's the strategy? And then what's the brand that we are going to

465
00:28:34,482 --> 00:28:37,484
create to drill that home? And

466
00:28:38,624 --> 00:28:41,784
so the investment is

467
00:28:41,864 --> 00:28:45,344
actually fairly significant in that

468
00:28:45,384 --> 00:28:49,216
regard. And I'm not saying that wineries should do that for

469
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,644
every single item that they're put out. However,

470
00:28:54,224 --> 00:28:58,008
I also can point to a real solid example

471
00:28:58,056 --> 00:29:01,564
that I've had over the years, and that is

472
00:29:02,344 --> 00:29:06,112
focus is key. I know a lot of

473
00:29:06,128 --> 00:29:09,824
wineries that are constantly pulling out. Yet a new wine,

474
00:29:09,864 --> 00:29:13,352
yet a new wine, yet a new wine. And I can tell

475
00:29:13,408 --> 00:29:16,004
you, during my time at Southern Glazers

476
00:29:17,304 --> 00:29:20,744
in New York, New York metro, I was with the

477
00:29:20,784 --> 00:29:24,604
Labward division. Just as we were taken over by Southern,

478
00:29:25,544 --> 00:29:29,104
the most successful wine buy

479
00:29:29,144 --> 00:29:32,672
value was Jordan Chardonnay,

480
00:29:32,768 --> 00:29:36,404
Cabernet, two wines in sync, focus.

481
00:29:37,864 --> 00:29:41,632
And I'm not saying that that's the guideline for everybody,

482
00:29:41,728 --> 00:29:44,684
but when there's too much of an

483
00:29:45,704 --> 00:29:49,120
ad hoc approach to what it is that we are

484
00:29:49,152 --> 00:29:52,904
selling, then again, you don't

485
00:29:52,944 --> 00:29:56,692
have the level of success with Empress. When we created Empress,

486
00:29:56,748 --> 00:30:00,444
1908, Jen, we had one skew, or actually,

487
00:30:00,524 --> 00:30:03,804
technically two. We had a 50, same thing. One

488
00:30:03,844 --> 00:30:07,604
product. One product. You know, it's

489
00:30:07,644 --> 00:30:11,492
interesting thought, because we created a lot of. I'm

490
00:30:11,508 --> 00:30:15,308
going to reverse my thought process here. We created a lot of labels here

491
00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:18,584
at wine of the month club. I have a license to make wine here,

492
00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:22,724
versus what you're saying, which is a brand. So I needed, let's say I found

493
00:30:22,764 --> 00:30:26,610
some juice in Napa that was distressed. Volume wise,

494
00:30:26,642 --> 00:30:29,938
I just had too much. I was able to buy it inexpensively, put it in

495
00:30:29,946 --> 00:30:33,482
a bottle. And so I wasn't, you know, it's very interesting because I didn't think

496
00:30:33,618 --> 00:30:37,402
I was trying to create a brand. I was thinking, I need to put a

497
00:30:37,418 --> 00:30:40,654
label on this wine so I can sell it through my regular channel,

498
00:30:41,154 --> 00:30:44,066
but not giving it the thought that, what if this is a brand? What if

499
00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:46,082
I do want to put it on the shelf? What if I do want to

500
00:30:46,098 --> 00:30:49,690
take it to a tasting room and have somebody taste it? And two different thought

501
00:30:49,722 --> 00:30:52,674
processes. Thought processes completely.

502
00:30:53,494 --> 00:30:57,326
That's really fascinating. You want to have an understanding of what

503
00:30:57,350 --> 00:31:01,134
is the business outcome you're looking for for this. What is the purpose?

504
00:31:01,254 --> 00:31:05,022
Because frankly, wine should not, or any brand should not exist unless it has a

505
00:31:05,038 --> 00:31:08,622
purpose. What is that purpose? And what makes

506
00:31:08,678 --> 00:31:12,510
sense to achieve that purpose in the fastest amount of

507
00:31:12,542 --> 00:31:16,254
time? You know, I had a conversation with Jessica Kogan.

508
00:31:16,294 --> 00:31:20,038
She. She's actually has a similar career to yours. She was with Donna

509
00:31:20,086 --> 00:31:23,558
Corinne, I think, one of the fashion companies early

510
00:31:23,606 --> 00:31:27,230
on, and she's become quite the guru in spirits and

511
00:31:27,262 --> 00:31:31,102
wine customer CX,

512
00:31:31,158 --> 00:31:34,878
customer experience. And we were sort of lamenting

513
00:31:34,926 --> 00:31:38,774
and sort of deciding together that the social network

514
00:31:38,854 --> 00:31:42,510
side of marketing, particularly in the spirits world, is sort of going to

515
00:31:42,542 --> 00:31:46,390
implode here. And that the experiential part of our

516
00:31:46,422 --> 00:31:50,270
industry is going to come back to the days like when I'm wearing this patch

517
00:31:50,382 --> 00:31:54,150
from Les Amis Devin, which was a wine enthusiast group in the seventies

518
00:31:54,182 --> 00:31:57,702
and eighties that had 150 chapters throughout the

519
00:31:57,718 --> 00:32:01,046
US. People would gather, exchange

520
00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:04,886
conversation, maybe have dinner, not unlike a

521
00:32:04,910 --> 00:32:08,710
tasting room that has a quality experience. But how do you feel about

522
00:32:08,862 --> 00:32:12,658
the future of digital marketing when it comes

523
00:32:12,746 --> 00:32:16,450
to spirits and wine? I think they serve

524
00:32:16,482 --> 00:32:20,130
a different purpose. You have multiple channels of

525
00:32:20,162 --> 00:32:23,874
communication in person, online and so

526
00:32:23,914 --> 00:32:27,370
on. So I'm not saying one

527
00:32:27,482 --> 00:32:31,258
is meant to replace the other, because they serve different

528
00:32:31,346 --> 00:32:35,146
purposes and people are processing

529
00:32:35,250 --> 00:32:38,714
information, communication about brands, in

530
00:32:38,794 --> 00:32:42,362
instance, and they do it ad hoc, they do it in between

531
00:32:42,458 --> 00:32:46,298
other things. It is not a focused process. They're not

532
00:32:46,346 --> 00:32:50,066
sitting there immersing themselves into a

533
00:32:50,130 --> 00:32:53,978
brand or a branded page, but they are taking snippets of

534
00:32:54,026 --> 00:32:57,810
information away. You just want to make sure that the snippets that you're

535
00:32:57,842 --> 00:33:01,186
offering are going to hit the right

536
00:33:01,250 --> 00:33:04,924
tone. That's one side, on the

537
00:33:05,584 --> 00:33:09,200
personal side of coming together

538
00:33:09,272 --> 00:33:12,992
for events. I think that's always. And that's part

539
00:33:13,008 --> 00:33:16,680
of humanity. We're social creatures. We want to be together, we want

540
00:33:16,712 --> 00:33:18,644
to have reasons to be together.

541
00:33:20,264 --> 00:33:23,960
I do believe that that part will come back. But if somebody thinks

542
00:33:23,992 --> 00:33:27,004
that that's going to help the brand building process,

543
00:33:28,704 --> 00:33:31,844
that's sort of a small part of the journey.

544
00:33:31,964 --> 00:33:35,676
It's. I think that's accurate. Yeah.

545
00:33:35,740 --> 00:33:39,100
I don't think it can compete with the amount of information

546
00:33:39,212 --> 00:33:42,940
processing that we are engaged

547
00:33:43,012 --> 00:33:46,444
in on a daily basis. Cause when I started

548
00:33:46,484 --> 00:33:49,996
doing Facebook back in the day was the day that everybody

549
00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:53,724
got your message, that was part of your network. You

550
00:33:53,804 --> 00:33:57,460
actually didn't wanna leave Facebook, or it wasn't even Instagram at that time, but

551
00:33:57,532 --> 00:34:01,250
you didn't wanna. It's so interesting to me because social networking

552
00:34:01,282 --> 00:34:05,034
was meant originally to be social networking. And so when you're

553
00:34:05,074 --> 00:34:08,610
on Facebook at those days, you didn't leave to go buy something.

554
00:34:08,762 --> 00:34:12,442
Even if you were delivered a message to buy something. You're like, no, I'm hanging

555
00:34:12,458 --> 00:34:16,234
out with my friends. We're talking and we're chatting, whatever we're doing. And now

556
00:34:16,274 --> 00:34:18,894
it's primarily a methodology for

557
00:34:19,474 --> 00:34:23,322
advertising and sales and obviously why Facebook has done

558
00:34:23,338 --> 00:34:26,749
so well the stock market side of things financially.

559
00:34:26,921 --> 00:34:30,669
So it's migrated completely. And

560
00:34:30,781 --> 00:34:34,473
I don't think the consumers understand. And I have a niece who's starting

561
00:34:34,813 --> 00:34:38,261
a salad dressing company and she's a

562
00:34:38,437 --> 00:34:42,181
prolific social network. She's done a lot of work with content. But when it

563
00:34:42,197 --> 00:34:45,909
gets down to the metrics of making money on social networking,

564
00:34:45,941 --> 00:34:49,493
it's very difficult on its own. I think there have been a few

565
00:34:49,533 --> 00:34:52,445
success stories that people have hung their hat on. Like, look, I did. I did

566
00:34:52,469 --> 00:34:55,264
all this on Facebook. I think that's far and few

567
00:34:56,524 --> 00:34:59,908
and far between backwards and

568
00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:03,604
probably pretty specific to the product.

569
00:35:03,684 --> 00:35:07,364
The need, the consumer that is reaching and who's doing that.

570
00:35:07,444 --> 00:35:10,544
But you wrote something today. This is why I'm trying to get to

571
00:35:11,164 --> 00:35:14,940
that kind of upset some people about non alk wines. Tell me about this

572
00:35:14,972 --> 00:35:18,164
article that you published. I read most of it, but I want you to tell

573
00:35:18,204 --> 00:35:21,716
me what you were thinking. Yes. So

574
00:35:21,820 --> 00:35:25,436
I. Looking at the conversations bubbling, just need

575
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:29,060
the surface. And non alcoholic

576
00:35:29,092 --> 00:35:32,580
wines is now a formed category

577
00:35:32,692 --> 00:35:36,492
with a lot of research and all that. I

578
00:35:36,548 --> 00:35:40,012
have to say I take exception to some of the elements

579
00:35:40,108 --> 00:35:43,740
of those conversations because at the end of the

580
00:35:43,772 --> 00:35:47,512
day, we're drinking something that's non alcoholic. There have

581
00:35:47,528 --> 00:35:51,200
been non alcoholic products forever, starting

582
00:35:51,232 --> 00:35:54,984
with water, starting with tea, going into sodas,

583
00:35:55,064 --> 00:35:57,484
juices and the like.

584
00:35:58,864 --> 00:36:02,656
So I have no issue with that. I drink many of

585
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,088
those other types of liquids, non alcoholic liquids,

586
00:36:06,136 --> 00:36:09,480
myself. That's. That's not the point. And in fact, when I was first

587
00:36:09,552 --> 00:36:13,188
pregnant with my first child, I did a lot of research about this.

588
00:36:13,376 --> 00:36:16,996
And that was back 20 plus years ago.

589
00:36:17,140 --> 00:36:20,668
And I drank Klaus Thaler, a german

590
00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:24,476
non alcoholic beer. It was one of two in the market. There was

591
00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:28,348
O'Toole's, which had no flavor, tastes like water, and there was a

592
00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:31,284
german non alcoholic beer. So obviously I went that

593
00:36:31,324 --> 00:36:34,740
direction and I never heard of

594
00:36:34,772 --> 00:36:38,548
anybody else really talking about that. So

595
00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:42,268
that was early days of this non alcoholic category

596
00:36:42,356 --> 00:36:46,174
journey, which has now imploded into this whole big thing.

597
00:36:46,634 --> 00:36:49,874
I have issues with the

598
00:36:49,914 --> 00:36:53,254
pricing, I have issues with the positioning.

599
00:36:53,594 --> 00:36:57,010
And frankly, most of it is just

600
00:36:57,082 --> 00:37:00,530
juice. And then there is the other

601
00:37:00,642 --> 00:37:04,338
element that I found, because I purchased just about every

602
00:37:04,386 --> 00:37:08,082
product that's been available online and teased it

603
00:37:08,098 --> 00:37:11,526
through, and I've done most of them because most don't even hit

604
00:37:11,610 --> 00:37:15,074
the flavor profile of something drinkable for me.

605
00:37:15,414 --> 00:37:19,190
And there have been some exceptions that

606
00:37:19,222 --> 00:37:22,154
I've liked, but then I can't rationalize the price.

607
00:37:23,614 --> 00:37:27,394
So there are two things happening. The pricing is out of control.

608
00:37:27,934 --> 00:37:31,566
We're drinking juice. The consumer is about to

609
00:37:31,590 --> 00:37:35,238
wise up that they are drinking juice and they're being

610
00:37:35,286 --> 00:37:38,874
told to pay 30 plus dollars for some of this

611
00:37:39,204 --> 00:37:42,988
elixir, craft elixir. So there's

612
00:37:43,036 --> 00:37:46,764
that. The other part for viscosity, mouth feel. And I blend

613
00:37:46,804 --> 00:37:49,104
wines for clients around the world.

614
00:37:50,364 --> 00:37:54,036
I find that there are other

615
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:57,812
ingredients, including different variations on sugar,

616
00:37:57,868 --> 00:38:01,156
whether it's agave or pure cane or some sort of

617
00:38:01,180 --> 00:38:04,356
syrup that are added to the product for

618
00:38:04,420 --> 00:38:07,910
viscosity, for mouth feel and so on, which is not

619
00:38:07,942 --> 00:38:11,278
unusual, because when the food industry took

620
00:38:11,326 --> 00:38:14,694
out fats from everything, they added in

621
00:38:14,774 --> 00:38:18,374
sugar into all foods. It's essentially what's

622
00:38:18,414 --> 00:38:22,070
happening here. And I have a nutrition background and I just look at this,

623
00:38:22,102 --> 00:38:25,726
I'm like, what are you doing? You're just trading one for the other. I'd rather

624
00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:29,574
have the single ingredient grape and

625
00:38:29,614 --> 00:38:33,430
have wine than pretend I'm doing anything healthy for

626
00:38:33,462 --> 00:38:36,882
my body with the. Whatever the concoction

627
00:38:36,938 --> 00:38:40,610
is. So if I want something non alcoholic,

628
00:38:40,722 --> 00:38:44,026
I'll have seltzer with lime,

629
00:38:44,090 --> 00:38:47,754
or I blend my own teas. And

630
00:38:47,874 --> 00:38:51,634
I created a nothing added

631
00:38:51,794 --> 00:38:54,574
blend of hibiscus, pomegranates,

632
00:38:55,394 --> 00:38:59,234
orange, whatever combination of teas. Added

633
00:38:59,314 --> 00:39:02,860
some fresh fruit, some ice, put in a nice glass, topped up

634
00:39:02,892 --> 00:39:06,540
with club soda. Looks beautiful, tastes delicious. Zero

635
00:39:06,612 --> 00:39:10,236
added ingredients, zero carbohydrates, zero calories.

636
00:39:10,380 --> 00:39:13,652
Oh, and it costs less than a dollar to make, so I'm bottling

637
00:39:13,708 --> 00:39:16,464
it. Aha. I read that section.

638
00:39:16,924 --> 00:39:20,604
Yeah, this is amazing because you're

639
00:39:20,644 --> 00:39:24,196
probably too young to remember the Scarsdale diet, but there was a diet put out

640
00:39:24,220 --> 00:39:27,924
by the guy that was in the biosphere in Arizona. And he

641
00:39:27,964 --> 00:39:31,246
talks about, look, if you're gonna go to a party and you're on my diet,

642
00:39:31,310 --> 00:39:35,014
you can't have alcohol. So just have a glass of soda

643
00:39:35,054 --> 00:39:38,342
water, you know, so it looks like you're having a Tom Collins and squeeze a

644
00:39:38,358 --> 00:39:42,166
lime in. It looks like you're having a vodka. Vodka soda, and you'll be

645
00:39:42,190 --> 00:39:45,910
fine. And I. I kind of rely on this. But the fancy food

646
00:39:45,942 --> 00:39:49,454
show in Vegas a couple years ago, so much of it was about the non

647
00:39:49,494 --> 00:39:53,326
alk business, and so much of it was undrinkable. And I

648
00:39:53,350 --> 00:39:57,076
wanna tell the listeners for a second, because I just got

649
00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,580
done yesterday, I went to the biodynamic organic tasting, tasted some

650
00:40:00,612 --> 00:40:04,304
fabulous wines from that ilk. And

651
00:40:04,644 --> 00:40:08,380
I started thinking, if you make a non alcoholic

652
00:40:08,412 --> 00:40:12,236
wine, the dollar makes sense that

653
00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:15,788
there's a problem with the dollars for one, because you remove the alcohol.

654
00:40:15,836 --> 00:40:19,356
But it doesn't just remove the alcohol, it removes about 30% of the

655
00:40:19,380 --> 00:40:23,046
volume of what you made. So if you have 1000 gallons in the

656
00:40:23,070 --> 00:40:26,854
tank, um, and when you're done removing the alcohol, you're gonna have 700 gallons.

657
00:40:26,894 --> 00:40:30,110
So you've just wasted 30% of, of your

658
00:40:30,142 --> 00:40:33,854
volume. Then you have to add back as you're talking about whether it's agave,

659
00:40:33,934 --> 00:40:37,510
or sugar or cane sugar, or flavoring agents. Water for

660
00:40:37,542 --> 00:40:41,246
sure. So you've now added it back into,

661
00:40:41,390 --> 00:40:44,926
to flavor it up so you can drink it. Cause it's undrinkable as a

662
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:48,646
dealcoolyzed drink. And then you have to put it in the

663
00:40:48,670 --> 00:40:52,160
bottle within seven days or it fails completely.

664
00:40:52,312 --> 00:40:55,328
And I thought that was really interesting. So from an industry

665
00:40:55,416 --> 00:40:59,016
standpoint, you can have wine sit in the tank for as long as

666
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,432
you feel like the wine is going to survive. It could be years in the

667
00:41:01,448 --> 00:41:05,152
tank and it doesn't, you know, changes, but it's fine. But as soon as you

668
00:41:05,168 --> 00:41:08,600
take the alcohol out, you need to put it in a bottle. And so that

669
00:41:08,632 --> 00:41:11,724
changes the logistical part of this whole business as well.

670
00:41:12,104 --> 00:41:15,872
And one of the major brands anyway. So the point I was

671
00:41:15,888 --> 00:41:18,724
going to make was like, here is a movement for biological,

672
00:41:19,254 --> 00:41:22,550
biological, bio dynamic and organic

673
00:41:22,582 --> 00:41:26,222
wines. Do something healthier for yourself. If you're going to drink wine, why don't you

674
00:41:26,238 --> 00:41:29,926
drink these versus non alcoholic? But it's full

675
00:41:29,950 --> 00:41:33,494
of who knows what's in there. Is that accurate?

676
00:41:33,654 --> 00:41:37,374
It sure is. You nailed it. And the other thing

677
00:41:37,414 --> 00:41:41,118
is, most of us in the industry, but consumers won't

678
00:41:41,166 --> 00:41:44,374
know this. The qualification for organic

679
00:41:44,414 --> 00:41:47,390
biodynamic, all sustainable, all these

680
00:41:47,582 --> 00:41:51,382
buzzwords, they've been around for a long time. And

681
00:41:51,478 --> 00:41:55,286
everybody has different systems. The EU has a different system. So you

682
00:41:55,310 --> 00:41:58,974
could be organic, and we can't bring it in as organic,

683
00:41:59,014 --> 00:42:02,750
we can't label it. So we have to call it natural wine. Now, natural

684
00:42:02,782 --> 00:42:06,430
wine has different connotations. So there's mass confusion

685
00:42:06,542 --> 00:42:09,822
and it's not being resolved anytime

686
00:42:09,878 --> 00:42:13,416
soon. So all those buzzwords are what they are.

687
00:42:13,590 --> 00:42:17,140
What I do, and what I can attest to is

688
00:42:17,172 --> 00:42:20,264
that so many european producers,

689
00:42:20,884 --> 00:42:24,524
and I can't say the same for the US, but so many european

690
00:42:24,564 --> 00:42:28,116
producers have been farming biodynamic

691
00:42:28,260 --> 00:42:32,076
organic without certification for

692
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:35,804
ages. Some have gone the process,

693
00:42:35,964 --> 00:42:39,452
the expensive and time consuming process

694
00:42:39,628 --> 00:42:43,460
of getting that certification. But not

695
00:42:43,492 --> 00:42:46,940
everybody is doing it. And so that becomes an

696
00:42:46,972 --> 00:42:50,724
issue. Nevertheless, there are great products

697
00:42:50,804 --> 00:42:54,612
out there. So one of the conversations

698
00:42:54,668 --> 00:42:58,372
I was having, it was very interesting because, you

699
00:42:58,388 --> 00:43:02,084
know, we know that Burgundians for years, for hundreds of

700
00:43:02,124 --> 00:43:05,412
years, were making wines organically. They had no other way to make wines

701
00:43:05,548 --> 00:43:09,334
organic. Was the. Was the standard of winemaking because we didn't have the opportunity

702
00:43:09,374 --> 00:43:13,110
to add stuff. And for the listeners, there's like 79

703
00:43:13,182 --> 00:43:16,822
or 76 things in California you can add to wine

704
00:43:16,998 --> 00:43:20,594
that will influence a wine's character.

705
00:43:21,174 --> 00:43:24,474
But what was interesting to me at this tasting was that the small

706
00:43:25,014 --> 00:43:28,302
producer who's making 1500 cases, 2000 cases,

707
00:43:28,398 --> 00:43:32,182
who's. This is their third or fifth vintage, they had this very

708
00:43:32,238 --> 00:43:35,424
altruistic opinion of the industry that

709
00:43:35,964 --> 00:43:39,228
all the history and all the work behind all the hundreds of years of making

710
00:43:39,276 --> 00:43:42,868
wine are irrelevant today. Or that they think

711
00:43:42,996 --> 00:43:46,436
that this idea of biodynamic organic is a new thing and they're first to the

712
00:43:46,460 --> 00:43:50,276
market or they're 10th to the mark, whatever. That conversation was

713
00:43:50,340 --> 00:43:54,140
very unique. I probably had it four times on

714
00:43:54,212 --> 00:43:57,516
Monday. Then there were the biodynamic

715
00:43:57,580 --> 00:44:01,244
organic makers that already are logistically in the

716
00:44:01,284 --> 00:44:05,028
system with one of the big houses like Southern Glazer or with RDC. And they

717
00:44:05,036 --> 00:44:08,516
have a completely different opinion of the direction of it

718
00:44:08,540 --> 00:44:12,004
all and the marketing of it all. And I thought, this is fascinating

719
00:44:12,044 --> 00:44:15,500
because, you know, the wanna do

720
00:44:15,532 --> 00:44:19,260
it, which is fine, a great industry to get involved with. The

721
00:44:19,292 --> 00:44:23,052
wanna be part of the program didn't understand really, what

722
00:44:23,068 --> 00:44:26,836
the program is about. And unfortunately, it's. The marketing of wine is

723
00:44:26,860 --> 00:44:29,104
a different animal than everything else.

724
00:44:31,164 --> 00:44:34,994
Go ahead. Sorry. So one of the challenges that I've seen, seen

725
00:44:35,494 --> 00:44:38,950
with the industry, and I go back to what I said initially

726
00:44:39,142 --> 00:44:42,434
about the noise in the middle

727
00:44:43,574 --> 00:44:47,246
in. Let's take handbags, for instance. Let's take an

728
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:51,006
Hermes handbag or Prada or something of

729
00:44:51,070 --> 00:44:54,654
luxury stature. They do have

730
00:44:54,694 --> 00:44:57,794
production. They're very mindful of their production.

731
00:44:58,254 --> 00:45:01,910
They do a bang up job on the level and

732
00:45:01,942 --> 00:45:05,634
quality of the products, use the raw materials as part of their story.

733
00:45:06,654 --> 00:45:08,914
But their focus,

734
00:45:09,814 --> 00:45:13,486
incessant focus, is on the consumer

735
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:17,462
that they're trying to reach, how they reach that consumer,

736
00:45:17,518 --> 00:45:21,314
how they communicate and embrace that consumer.

737
00:45:21,654 --> 00:45:25,414
Whereas the wine industry doesn't have a clue in so many

738
00:45:25,454 --> 00:45:29,248
cases who is actually buying or

739
00:45:29,296 --> 00:45:33,040
who are you looking to have buy your product. I was no joke

740
00:45:33,072 --> 00:45:36,284
in a meeting yesterday with a brand

741
00:45:37,424 --> 00:45:40,324
and I asked the question, who is your target consumer?

742
00:45:41,384 --> 00:45:44,764
And I quote, 22 to 74.

743
00:45:48,024 --> 00:45:50,644
Oh, okay. Well, let's just

744
00:45:51,624 --> 00:45:55,218
so. Wow, that conversation,

745
00:45:55,386 --> 00:45:59,210
where did that come. From, do you think? Had to be. How do they even

746
00:45:59,242 --> 00:46:03,018
narrow it down, huh? Well, not everybody's. Most

747
00:46:03,066 --> 00:46:06,770
people are not marketing people that go in the wine business. No, that's

748
00:46:06,922 --> 00:46:10,562
business people or whatever their background is,

749
00:46:10,658 --> 00:46:14,306
or agricultural background, or, you know, some sort of a

750
00:46:14,330 --> 00:46:17,490
business background. But I can't even

751
00:46:17,682 --> 00:46:20,334
fathom an answer like that.

752
00:46:21,234 --> 00:46:25,066
Again, who is your

753
00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:28,786
target customer and why does your wine even

754
00:46:28,850 --> 00:46:32,330
exist? You know, I'm going to interrupt you for a second,

755
00:46:32,522 --> 00:46:36,362
because I just thought of this, but that is one year past the legal drinking

756
00:46:36,418 --> 00:46:40,146
age and one year short of the average lifespan.

757
00:46:40,290 --> 00:46:43,730
Correct. So who's our customer?

758
00:46:43,802 --> 00:46:47,482
Everybody. Well, if you're doing everything for everybody, you do

759
00:46:47,538 --> 00:46:51,278
have to have 1000 different wines with crappy labels because

760
00:46:51,446 --> 00:46:55,078
you have no idea who you're trying to reach and you're just

761
00:46:55,126 --> 00:46:58,874
throwing things against the wall and maybe something sticks.

762
00:46:59,334 --> 00:47:02,238
That's the crapshoot, the strategy. First of all,

763
00:47:02,326 --> 00:47:05,638
winemakers are not marketers, they're not

764
00:47:05,686 --> 00:47:09,366
salespeople. They do a bang up job with who and

765
00:47:09,390 --> 00:47:13,238
what they are in the vineyard, in the winery. And that's

766
00:47:13,286 --> 00:47:16,974
great. There is another element, blending. That's

767
00:47:17,014 --> 00:47:20,100
not the forte of every winemaker either, which is

768
00:47:20,222 --> 00:47:24,064
why I wind up doing some of that for

769
00:47:24,104 --> 00:47:27,872
clients. Because I blend to price palette

770
00:47:28,008 --> 00:47:31,440
position, because I do know the

771
00:47:31,472 --> 00:47:34,952
consumer that we're trying to reach and I know what's going to work for

772
00:47:34,968 --> 00:47:38,764
them. I'm also fortunate that in my household I have

773
00:47:39,944 --> 00:47:43,792
three adult children, so two millennials and

774
00:47:43,808 --> 00:47:47,398
all their friends, and one Gen Z and all her friends.

775
00:47:47,566 --> 00:47:51,406
And I could see the trends coming from a mile away, just because of

776
00:47:51,470 --> 00:47:55,206
some of the things that occur in house. So

777
00:47:55,230 --> 00:47:58,594
you do know who's buying. That's an interesting point,

778
00:47:59,134 --> 00:48:02,846
because I vowed on a previous podcast never to beat up the millennials

779
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:06,638
again, because I have three myself, three girls as well, and so I will not

780
00:48:06,726 --> 00:48:10,534
bash the generation. But you said something

781
00:48:10,574 --> 00:48:12,662
earlier, and I want to peel that back a little bit, and we're almost out

782
00:48:12,678 --> 00:48:16,250
of time. Unbelievably. But that is, people

783
00:48:16,322 --> 00:48:19,954
come to the industry with a background in something else. I've seen how many

784
00:48:19,994 --> 00:48:23,802
beverage soda manufacturers or soda executives come to

785
00:48:23,818 --> 00:48:27,594
the wine industry fail. And so it sounds like, or it feels like

786
00:48:27,634 --> 00:48:31,410
you're saying alternate businesses

787
00:48:31,442 --> 00:48:34,194
that you bring thinking you're going to bring to the table of the wine industry,

788
00:48:34,234 --> 00:48:37,574
and you're going to set the wine industry on fire because you've

789
00:48:37,954 --> 00:48:41,574
experienced success in another industry using certain tactics.

790
00:48:42,444 --> 00:48:45,744
They generally don't work. Is that accurate?

791
00:48:46,564 --> 00:48:49,812
Not exactly. I also come from outside of the industry. And in

792
00:48:49,828 --> 00:48:53,172
fact, to some degree, it was exactly that

793
00:48:53,228 --> 00:48:57,020
outsider perspective that has allowed me to succeed, because

794
00:48:57,212 --> 00:49:00,892
I question everything. And I literally believe

795
00:49:00,988 --> 00:49:04,724
that I can apply foundational marketing principles

796
00:49:04,884 --> 00:49:08,580
to things that this industry is not accustomed to. I still maintain that

797
00:49:08,612 --> 00:49:11,980
outsider's view. What I'm pointing to

798
00:49:12,092 --> 00:49:15,204
is running an agricultural

799
00:49:15,284 --> 00:49:18,796
production is one side of the

800
00:49:18,820 --> 00:49:22,516
business, obviously critical side. But if

801
00:49:22,540 --> 00:49:26,020
you're just producing without understanding who you are

802
00:49:26,052 --> 00:49:29,532
producing for, and what is it that you're trying to create

803
00:49:29,668 --> 00:49:31,504
for that particular target?

804
00:49:33,684 --> 00:49:36,994
You can produce all you want. I had one italian

805
00:49:37,034 --> 00:49:40,610
winemaker at one point tell me, well, we make

806
00:49:40,642 --> 00:49:43,574
wine like we always made wine, and

807
00:49:44,394 --> 00:49:47,914
people like it, they're going to buy it. I said, really?

808
00:49:48,034 --> 00:49:51,826
That's so exciting. That's so interesting. So you must sell everything you make.

809
00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:55,282
Oh, no, we have too much inventory. So you

810
00:49:55,298 --> 00:49:58,994
know that mindset. You're in

811
00:49:59,034 --> 00:50:02,614
agriculture, you're running a production facility,

812
00:50:03,034 --> 00:50:05,734
you're in that space.

813
00:50:07,034 --> 00:50:10,786
It takes equal amount of expertise to go to market

814
00:50:10,890 --> 00:50:13,854
with any product, and it's a different skill set.

815
00:50:14,794 --> 00:50:18,146
Do you think that's some of the disillusion that you see with people that come

816
00:50:18,170 --> 00:50:21,654
to the table? Monica, we need your help. And

817
00:50:22,994 --> 00:50:26,746
you don't see much thought behind it. When they started, they realize they've

818
00:50:26,770 --> 00:50:30,104
gotten into an industry that's very difficult to market and

819
00:50:31,004 --> 00:50:34,556
lack of understanding, or let's

820
00:50:34,580 --> 00:50:37,584
not diminish it more like

821
00:50:38,044 --> 00:50:41,780
bright eyed and bushy tailed, going into the industry because it's so romantic

822
00:50:41,812 --> 00:50:44,788
and we want to do this. And we went to the wine country and we

823
00:50:44,796 --> 00:50:48,348
had so much fun there, and we just love the lifestyle.

824
00:50:48,516 --> 00:50:51,916
And then they get into it and realize it's exactly what you're

825
00:50:51,940 --> 00:50:55,444
saying. It's without a

826
00:50:55,484 --> 00:50:59,254
doubt a challenging business because you

827
00:50:59,294 --> 00:51:03,014
do have to straddle the agricultural side. Unless, of course,

828
00:51:03,054 --> 00:51:06,782
you're just creating a brand and sourcing fruit and going from there.

829
00:51:06,918 --> 00:51:10,462
But if you're running a winery and a production facility,

830
00:51:10,558 --> 00:51:13,958
whether it's distillery or winery for that matter, there are

831
00:51:14,046 --> 00:51:17,406
production operational related challenges that have to be

832
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:21,262
addressed. But you can't do that in some sort

833
00:51:21,278 --> 00:51:25,026
of a vacuum, which is what are I see occurring more often

834
00:51:25,090 --> 00:51:28,890
than not. It's the vacuum of that. Without the

835
00:51:28,922 --> 00:51:32,730
understanding that the only thing you need to produce and

836
00:51:32,762 --> 00:51:36,602
you should be producing has to have a rationale for why

837
00:51:36,658 --> 00:51:40,298
it's being produced. Why should anyone care who's going to buy

838
00:51:40,346 --> 00:51:42,774
it and who's going to buy it time and again?

839
00:51:44,114 --> 00:51:47,946
That's a good point. We're at 50 minutes, which is

840
00:51:47,970 --> 00:51:51,722
about the limit we didn't touch. Well, we

841
00:51:51,738 --> 00:51:55,514
already spoke before, and so I knew that topics were not going to be

842
00:51:55,634 --> 00:51:59,294
short here, but I wrote some down anyway. We're not even

843
00:51:59,954 --> 00:52:03,618
halfway through them, so I hope we can do this again. I would love that.

844
00:52:03,666 --> 00:52:07,010
And I would like to hear the flip side of some of the projects you're

845
00:52:07,042 --> 00:52:10,770
working on today. And there's a lot of subjects to

846
00:52:10,802 --> 00:52:14,066
talk about in this industry that we need to get to. One of them is,

847
00:52:14,130 --> 00:52:17,104
I'm going to a launch party on Saturday.

848
00:52:17,524 --> 00:52:21,300
My 19 year old niece is launching a self serve and not self serve,

849
00:52:21,332 --> 00:52:25,116
single serve salad dressing, and I would love to hear your

850
00:52:25,140 --> 00:52:28,876
thoughts on that once she launches it. It's a brand. It's

851
00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:32,700
so branding. It's kind of interesting. Branding. Salad dressing,

852
00:52:32,732 --> 00:52:36,380
after I've done a little research with her and helped her a little bit, is

853
00:52:36,412 --> 00:52:38,344
not unlike wine. It's not unlike

854
00:52:39,444 --> 00:52:41,944
toothpaste. Shelf space,

855
00:52:42,514 --> 00:52:46,098
recognition, where you're going to sell it, who's going to buy it,

856
00:52:46,226 --> 00:52:49,818
is all part of that conversation. 100%, but less

857
00:52:49,866 --> 00:52:53,574
regulatory with a little less regulation. Right. So

858
00:52:54,194 --> 00:52:57,490
good luck the rest of the day, and I hope that we get a chance

859
00:52:57,522 --> 00:53:01,090
to reconnect in the future. And certainly when we're out in Manhattan. You're in Manhattan,

860
00:53:01,122 --> 00:53:04,214
right? That's right. That we would get together.

861
00:53:04,834 --> 00:53:08,378
We usually hang out the baccarat, take you upstairs, and we'll have a

862
00:53:08,386 --> 00:53:11,846
martini or something, or a glass of wine and one of their famed glasses.

863
00:53:12,010 --> 00:53:15,382
And as long as it's not non alcoholic.

864
00:53:15,478 --> 00:53:19,062
Yeah. You know, before you get off, I didn't bring it up,

865
00:53:19,078 --> 00:53:22,766
but when we were walking down the aisles at the fancy food show in San

866
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:26,582
Francisco, well, this year was in Vegas when I said it was

867
00:53:26,598 --> 00:53:30,390
a preeminent theme for the show of non alcoholic spirits and wine,

868
00:53:30,422 --> 00:53:33,806
and a guy stuck a glass of prosecco in my face, and it actually was

869
00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:37,342
palatable. I had him on the show. It was a very interesting guy. So I'm

870
00:53:37,358 --> 00:53:40,396
going to extend this five minutes so I can hear your thoughts. But the other

871
00:53:40,420 --> 00:53:44,180
thing that was on the show, a lot of was non alcoholic spirits, which

872
00:53:44,252 --> 00:53:47,772
were almost unpalatable. I don't know why they needed to use

873
00:53:47,828 --> 00:53:51,180
indian spices to make these things work. And it goes back to your

874
00:53:51,212 --> 00:53:54,964
point. I saw a non alcoholic bourbon at whole

875
00:53:55,004 --> 00:53:58,740
Foods the other day, and it was $35 a bottle. Now,

876
00:53:58,772 --> 00:54:02,492
you can buy, you know, some pretty decent bourbon for that $40, 50 a

877
00:54:02,508 --> 00:54:05,984
bottle. But why would I buy this for $35

878
00:54:06,304 --> 00:54:10,088
when it does nothing except taste. Like, I just don't

879
00:54:10,136 --> 00:54:13,912
get it. Price is what

880
00:54:14,008 --> 00:54:17,664
people will be willing to pay. So there has been

881
00:54:17,704 --> 00:54:21,320
this narrative about this whole category, and I'm just

882
00:54:21,352 --> 00:54:25,184
saying consumers are wise. They wake up. You can only

883
00:54:25,224 --> 00:54:29,056
fool certainly the american consumer for so long. We always

884
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,804
see the backlash when production,

885
00:54:33,534 --> 00:54:36,998
for instance, there was the whole thing with

886
00:54:37,046 --> 00:54:40,790
rose and rose boomed and then the quality went

887
00:54:40,822 --> 00:54:44,550
down, price went up and consumers started to pull back.

888
00:54:44,742 --> 00:54:48,554
It is a cycle. Consumers aren't stupid.

889
00:54:49,174 --> 00:54:52,550
They may not react instantly, but they will react.

890
00:54:52,702 --> 00:54:56,486
And right now, there's no rationale, in my view, in

891
00:54:56,510 --> 00:55:00,154
my analysis, for those types of priced non

892
00:55:00,194 --> 00:55:03,970
alcoholic products. I think it's a mess. Well, I've

893
00:55:04,002 --> 00:55:07,682
had, it's an interesting thought and I have just two pieces of sort

894
00:55:07,698 --> 00:55:11,530
of ad hoc evidence. One is Boisson, the

895
00:55:11,562 --> 00:55:14,834
famed retailer and just wholesaler of non alcoholic

896
00:55:14,914 --> 00:55:18,618
brands apparently has filed bankruptcy. I haven't seen that yet, but it

897
00:55:18,626 --> 00:55:22,434
was brought up on a post. And second, I

898
00:55:22,474 --> 00:55:25,620
have here as a consultant for the direct consumer

899
00:55:25,652 --> 00:55:29,420
marketing, I have gotten less requirement arrest requests

900
00:55:29,452 --> 00:55:33,156
from people to help them with that. I've had more requests across the globe for

901
00:55:33,180 --> 00:55:36,604
people to bring brands of wine to Los

902
00:55:36,644 --> 00:55:40,084
Angeles. And so I have in my quiver a really good armenian

903
00:55:40,124 --> 00:55:42,384
wine. I have in my quiver a

904
00:55:44,204 --> 00:55:48,052
Bordeaux from a boutique house in Lalonde de Pomerol. And I have a

905
00:55:48,068 --> 00:55:51,798
non alcoholic prosecco. And I, you

906
00:55:51,806 --> 00:55:55,606
know, with all my connections and all 50 years of doing this, I'm having

907
00:55:55,630 --> 00:55:59,070
a hard time getting in the door with any brand because the

908
00:55:59,102 --> 00:56:02,638
marketplace is so flooded. And it seems to me

909
00:56:02,806 --> 00:56:05,966
maybe that bubble is bursting a little bit in non al

910
00:56:06,070 --> 00:56:09,822
world. Everybody rushed to it. And, you

911
00:56:09,838 --> 00:56:13,366
know, like I said, boss, I'm going out of business and I'm getting resistance to

912
00:56:13,390 --> 00:56:17,210
put it in the book because not every wholesaler, for sure, maybe,

913
00:56:17,282 --> 00:56:21,002
maybe less than half of them in Los Angeles have a non alk. In

914
00:56:21,018 --> 00:56:24,354
their book, have tea by

915
00:56:24,394 --> 00:56:28,010
juice. What's that? Have tea or

916
00:56:28,042 --> 00:56:31,882
buy juice. Yeah, right. My recommendation. So I, you

917
00:56:31,898 --> 00:56:35,682
know, we'll leave it at that. Have tea or buy juice.

918
00:56:35,778 --> 00:56:39,574
And such a pleasure to see you again. And I look forward to doing it.

919
00:56:40,274 --> 00:56:41,534
We'll talk soon.

920
00:56:50,254 --> 00:56:53,590
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum Cary. And don't forget to

921
00:56:53,622 --> 00:56:56,774
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

922
00:56:56,934 --> 00:57:00,254
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.