One Of The First Five Wineries In Napa. Meet The Winemaking Team At Inglenook.

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What I see in the history of the industry is that the Americans

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started with the concept of varietal wines in order to kind of try

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to get attention from the French. If you didn't make wine in

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France, it was not wine. And then when the reputation

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was building the new world, then now is the

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time for us here in California to build upon the

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site, sit back and grab a glass. It's

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Wine Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are at an away game

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up in the Napa Valley. But to have a conversation with Enrique Herrero and

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Jonathan Tyer at Inglemook Winery is one of the most historic places

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in the Napa Valley. Hey, if you have something nice to say about what we're

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doing here at the podcast, go ahead and say it and give me a review

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and subscribe. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all. But

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that's what keeps our egos going here in this industry. But I want to

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continue this conversation that we just jumped in on

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about the consumerism of wine and the way Cal

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California is moving. You know, it's so refreshing to

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hear that because some of the conversation on the Internet and

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the Facebook and all that social networking is, we've got to come to the

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consumer what they want. We have to produce things that.

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And let's face it, wine is consumer driven.

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And I'm going to highlight this by saying somebody posted on Facebook a

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conversation at Paris Wine and this guy had just

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sold 24 million bottles of peach flavored

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fermented grape juice. And I thought, okay,

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that's probably the quintessential opposite of what we're talking about right

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now. Yeah, no, no, no. And I believe that. And I'm sure that there is

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that in the market. What I think is

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happening, what I'm trying to emphasize is the position

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that as a farming product, because it's

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a production that come from farming and

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winemaking, it's farming. Yeah. You are in

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some way tied to the side where you produce. So you can

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produce. As long as you do make genuine wine,

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you produce what you can, you don't produce what you want.

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So much less you will be able to produce something

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that is coming from a consumer. Say, oh, I would like

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to have a wine that has all these features. Well, you produce

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what you can. To make it short, I always give the example

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of my son. It seems that the

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Coca Cola made in Mexico is preferred among youth

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cane sugar than the American wine than the American

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one. And they are able to

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differentiate Them. And for something that is so typified

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and so made as a Coca Cola,

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we are finding differences. Why do we want to make a

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Cabernet Sauvignon the same everywhere? I agree with you

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and I had this conversation yesterday at Cathiar,

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which is owned by a Bordeaux house and they're

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bringing this Bordelaise philosophy to the table

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here at Inglewinnock. You are trying to represent

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now the Rutherford or wherever your grapes are on. Is that.

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Yeah, it's all Rutherford. It's Rutherford Bench here.

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We've been here for about 150 years now and

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it's really trying to express the best of this

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site. And there's a lot of people in the

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valley who have moved towards this trend of picking a little bit

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earlier and really allowing the site to express itself through those

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wines. I'm glad

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because I think what happened in this 80s 90s was this

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movement toward this sort of monolithic,

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over extracted, juiced up Cabernet. And I, and I'm

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not going to throw any names out, you know, we're not trying to create any

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enemies here. But there's certainly a profile of what

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Napa has landed on. And it sounds like what

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England wants to do is move away to

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expressing what wine really should be. And

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I guess that. But that kind of means staying the course, right? That kind of

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means on your guys behalf you must continue to say this is

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what we're going to do. Because you're working five years out at least, right. To

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figure out what's going to be on the table at a minimum. Yeah. And

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so you have to be pretty diligent to what you're doing.

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Yeah. And you're right in the 90s. And we were part of that

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at some point we were proud to say, oh, it's

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115% new oak. Yeah. Right.

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So dripping with vanilla and SAP.

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And then you realize that. Yeah, it's so

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difficult to differentiate when everybody

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does the same. How are these, how does this happen? Like, is there

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a board? The winery is still owned by Francis Ford

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Coppola, as you mentioned. It's not as it's his flagship,

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it's what he wants to do. He creates, created this amazing brand. I actually

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bought the 1985

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or 87 claret in the club back, back

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in the day. But how, how are these

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decisions made? How do you do you sit as a group and say, look, we

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are going to stay the course. We are going to bring to the table

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what we think Engle Nook represents. It's I Mean, you were here when it

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happened. But it all came from Mr. Coppola. He wanted to

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make wines that he could enjoy with food again. And

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he felt the wines were going too far. And the pendulum

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had swung, especially in the Valley, too far, and really wanted to

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restrain it and brought in our director of winemaking, Philippe

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Pascal from Chateau Margaux. And so that happened in

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2011. Enrique's been here now just over 20 years.

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I've been over here just over 10 years. Wow. There's some. Quite some

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tenure right here. Philosophically, I

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mean, not just. Absolutely. No, no, that is true. You were.

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Jonathan was making an observation because we received wine, we

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become wine club members after 10 years. And he

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was looking at the roster of the people that were going to

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receive this wine and say, wow, we're 52 in this

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condition now, and we have 100 employees. Yeah, thereabouts.

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Yeah. Wow, that's a big winery. Yeah. More of the

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half of the staff here is 10

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years, or. Wow, that's pretty good. Yeah, we were, you know, at the Wine of

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the Month club, I. My warehouse guy was 25

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years. The other guy was like 15

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years. And that's a very important part

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of business, is to be able to maintain a happy

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staff, to get the consistency in what you're doing. And

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nobody brings a new philosophy to the table. Accident, you know, not accidentally,

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but, you know, ad hoc. And then you have to deal with that. But here

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you have a group of people that have. Under the same banner for a long

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time. I mean, I'm assuming this dust behind you is

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part of that same history. Absolutely.

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I swear, it almost looked like you placed it there, but I get it. It

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reminds me of Portugal when you go down to the cellars of the Portuguese

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wineries. So when you come from Argentina, and that's. When did you

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come from. To Argentina? I came here in 1997

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because I was pursuing a degree in

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agronomy, a master's degree in agronomy. So I came

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here, and Davis at the time, well, and still

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was pretty much the, you know, the tip

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of the arrow in terms of evolution

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of science applied to plants and

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crops. And so that's why I came here in

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1987. So I started working here in

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2007, went back to Argentina because I need to

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renew my visa. It was with a student

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visa. And then the winery offered me to come back

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again. So two years later, in 2007. So

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I worked here 2003 to 2005, back

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to Argentina, and came back at the end of 2007 and ever

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since then. And so you consider

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Argentina, South America, the United States, all considered

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New World in a sense. Did you bring

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that philosophy with you from. Were you making wine in Argentina?

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Yes, yes. And actually I grew up in a vineyard

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and it has.

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The consumption profile in Argentina is a little bit different. We

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are pretty much descendant of people from the

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southern part of Europe. So we are

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wine consumer by default. So it's not

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like a fancy thing for us, but everyday thing. I

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remember having wine and water when I was

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probably 8 years old at the table.

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So in my case, my family was producing

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bulk wines, kind of what you consider low quality wines, but it's

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for everyday consumption. So there

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are differences in that aspect. But the

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concept of New Worldly was dumped on us, you know,

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in Australia, the US but by whoever considered themselves to

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be in the old world. So the name, we got

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that name from them. That's true.

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So you are New World. Yeah, you're new, like meaning.

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But I think that there are, if you look at the world map,

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there are areas between, I don't know, 33

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north, where you can grow grapes

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with really good aptitude to make good

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wines and like music. Every country can have their

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wine. There is no better or worse, but it's just

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something that is coming from them. In California, there is,

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I don't know, a signature

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to the wines in California that is different. And we have to accept

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that it's different from many. I think that's

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the premise and like I said,

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the reason wine has been around for 6,000 years and probably

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will continue at least 6,000 years and probably will continue

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with its same attraction to the human

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soul, because it does represent

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something from the soil. I mean, it is. I haven't been able to pin

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this conversation down or this articulate this feeling.

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And it's different than any other product in the world that way.

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Nothing makes you feel like a glass of wine. I'm not talking about the alcohol

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though. That is. No, no, it doesn't hurt. But it has this

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deep rooted human impact on the

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psyche. Yeah. I think the sense of identity is what we

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find in wine that probably we don't find in other

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product. Probably there are some other things I don't know. That's well said.

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But the sense of identity that is kind of linked.

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Yeah, I think that's the new world, essentially the

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winemaker and you. Would you. When you hear a New World, does that

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bother you to call it New World? Does it represent a style? What does it

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represent to you? It's for me it's just realizing we

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don't have the history that Europe does. Right.

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You know, the hundreds or thousands of years of

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winemaking. It's only been here for a few

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hundred years. And I mean, we're one of the oldest

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wineries in the valley and we're about 150 years old. Yeah. Which is

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amazing. Let's see. I was talking when I was at

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Cathy Art. It was.

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It was Martini's place for a little while, and I think

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it started in 1885. When did Inglenook start? 1879.

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Okay. So a little predates that. But they also owned

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Smith, Smith o

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Lafitte, which was founded in 1385. And I go, wow,

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the 500 year difference between the two foundings. I certainly. You can learn

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something because I have this. Correct me if you think I'm wrong or you have

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a different idea, but all that history

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rolls up to. I mean, you sit in these meetings, you sit in this room

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with this dust, and you sit with Enrique and you have these conversations

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and what you. I think impulsively, you

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carry that into the bottle. You can't define it as a piece of

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tannic acid or a fruit character, but the lessons you've learned

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along the way end up in the bottle.

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Yeah, absolutely. No, go ahead. And

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it's also. It's lessons you're learning along the way and then

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always trying to improve. You can't

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get complacent in what you're doing, and you always want to

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make the best product possible. And so that. And

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that's. Therein lies the rep. What does that mean? Well, going back

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to that, I think that you get it very

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correctly, is the lesson learned that for me is

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the true meaning of heritage. Because otherwise heritage becomes

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something so abstract that you don't know what that

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means. Yeah, you're right. But because we're

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transmitting knowledge from

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one generation to another, being in the same place,

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trying to know the. And we still think that we don't know

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our place. Yeah, no, right. I know you're. You never. This industry

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is great in that way. You never stop learning right now because. The more

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you learn, the less secure you are.

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Yes, right. That's true. Bless you, Noah. I don't know that much. Right.

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But as Jonathan said, this is just is

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conveyance of learning over generations.

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How long have you been doing this? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, that. That

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is what comes to me as the most

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defining meaning of heritage. Otherwise it's kind

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of a blur thing that I wouldn't know how to define. And before I get

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to that question, I was going to ask you there. Part of

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this conversation that I like to have these, to have

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with folks like you is. Comes from a woman in

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Bordeaux. Her name is May Elian Long song. She was 15

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when the Nazis came into her parents chateau at Pesche to

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Pichon Longueville and literally shot it up.

238
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And I had, actually, I was down the street at

239
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Barono, the hotel, and

240
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:49,316
her grandson called me and said, if you want to talk to my grandmother, she's

241
00:14:49,348 --> 00:14:52,772
available in an hour in Paris time. So I

242
00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:56,612
got on my computer and got her on the, on the call, and she just

243
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told stories for 45 minutes. But I kept thinking,

244
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how is that not in the bottle today? How is those,

245
00:15:04,444 --> 00:15:08,148
the, the, the drama

246
00:15:08,324 --> 00:15:11,560
and the history and the stress

247
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,716
that in the lessons learned by those folks in the vineyard aren't

248
00:15:15,748 --> 00:15:19,310
in the bottle today? They must be, because

249
00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:23,730
that's part of their history. So you've been doing this 10 years

250
00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:27,042
here, and what brought you to this

251
00:15:27,226 --> 00:15:31,010
place? Honestly, I was really

252
00:15:31,050 --> 00:15:34,470
excited to work with Philippe Pascal, our director of winemaking.

253
00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:39,330
He came from Chateau Margaux to come here, and I wanted to

254
00:15:39,370 --> 00:15:43,058
learn from him, to kind of take that next step in my career. And

255
00:15:43,114 --> 00:15:45,390
it's really become a home for me now.

256
00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:50,452
It's kind of interesting because there's a guy in town, Chris Phelps, he worked at

257
00:15:50,476 --> 00:15:53,280
Margot, he worked at Petrus, he's got his own brand.

258
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:57,892
But we're bringing these guys from, from Bordeaux. We're not making much

259
00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:01,396
Pinot here. Do we make Pinot? No. Yeah. So we're bringing

260
00:16:01,428 --> 00:16:05,060
Bordeaux winemakers. I guess that goes back to our old world versus new

261
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,692
world. And I think for the old world, if you're going to talk about a

262
00:16:08,716 --> 00:16:12,484
geography, you know, I guess you can define it as a style

263
00:16:12,532 --> 00:16:16,324
too. It's sort of that musty old style. But I think you really want to

264
00:16:16,332 --> 00:16:19,620
just look at it as, as location in some cases. In those

265
00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:23,092
cases, like Margaux or Pesic Leon

266
00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:26,772
or San, they're bound by the

267
00:16:26,796 --> 00:16:30,600
rules of the Appalachian. And I think that's part of the definition

268
00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:34,772
of old world Argentina. No rules. No rules. You want to grow, you know,

269
00:16:34,796 --> 00:16:38,516
Torontes and Salta, go ahead. Right. If you want to grow Pinot Noir in Patagonia,

270
00:16:38,548 --> 00:16:42,142
you know, that's what you get to do. But you're bound in

271
00:16:42,166 --> 00:16:45,450
those parts of the world. What would be considered old world?

272
00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:49,230
Does the director of winemaking have this sort of

273
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:51,450
freedom here that he gets to do?

274
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:55,290
I would say he's a lot more Freedom here.

275
00:16:56,630 --> 00:17:00,462
We. Especially when we're blending for our premier wine, Rubicon,

276
00:17:00,526 --> 00:17:03,966
we're tasting everything blind, and we've got all the Bordeaux

277
00:17:03,998 --> 00:17:07,498
varieties in there, and we're not making

278
00:17:07,554 --> 00:17:11,178
decisions based off variety. We're making decisions based off

279
00:17:11,234 --> 00:17:14,778
what is the best wines of that vintage that will make blend.

280
00:17:14,954 --> 00:17:18,778
So you all get together Blind Taste 5,

281
00:17:18,834 --> 00:17:22,682
the five border varietals, all the. Different parcels off

282
00:17:22,706 --> 00:17:26,442
the property. So we don't have Malbec on. On site here, but we

283
00:17:26,466 --> 00:17:30,202
have the other four, and that's not good for him.

284
00:17:30,226 --> 00:17:33,230
He's a Malbec. I know it's very offensive.

285
00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:40,412
But it's. It's always about figuring out what's the best expression of that vintage.

286
00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:44,236
Yes. You know, let me test your.

287
00:17:44,308 --> 00:17:47,164
Your brain a little bit, because I brought this up the other day with a

288
00:17:47,172 --> 00:17:50,732
French winemaker, and I said, you know, there's really no bad vintages, because

289
00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:54,236
by our definition, if. If it. A wine expresses

290
00:17:54,428 --> 00:17:58,204
that time in that place, then it's accurate. As long as, you

291
00:17:58,212 --> 00:18:00,972
know, you did the best you could to blend it and come out with the

292
00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:04,692
best result, then, yeah, some

293
00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:08,340
wines may taste better than others to certain people, but by

294
00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:12,052
definition, there's no bad vintage if it's properly made. I'm glad that

295
00:18:12,076 --> 00:18:15,908
we're recording this, because this is the best explanation I

296
00:18:15,964 --> 00:18:19,700
have heard from, you know, being criticized

297
00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:23,012
that every vintage is the best. Yeah, right. You know, when critics say, oh, you

298
00:18:23,036 --> 00:18:26,708
always say the same, but actually, what you just said is really good.

299
00:18:26,764 --> 00:18:30,592
This is Jeff. Because we try to make the best of what we

300
00:18:30,616 --> 00:18:34,304
have for the vintage, and that is kind of a justification

301
00:18:34,352 --> 00:18:38,000
to say yes. I think that's what we're doing. Yeah. And who's to say that,

302
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,872
you know, like the 89, for instance, here in Napa was

303
00:18:41,896 --> 00:18:45,456
a harsh, tough vintage, and many of them didn't even Release.

304
00:18:45,608 --> 00:18:49,168
And the 90 was such a luscious vintage, and they released

305
00:18:49,184 --> 00:18:52,960
them, I made a fortune, quote, unquote. I don't say

306
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,832
fortune on the 89s, because they came around eventually. Oh, yeah. And

307
00:18:56,856 --> 00:19:00,000
they were great. And of course, you can't release the 89 after the 90s already

308
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,724
on the shelf, or even the 91. So, you know, there's all this 89 in

309
00:19:03,812 --> 00:19:07,580
bottle that had done a great job of softening, and there were some

310
00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:11,084
really good wines that came out of that. So. And again, it kind of flies

311
00:19:11,132 --> 00:19:14,892
in the face of a bad vintage versus a good vintage, but really, I

312
00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:18,700
think defined by if you're making an honest glass of wine, that's my

313
00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:22,172
latest term meaning not played with. No,

314
00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:25,880
no, I agree with that. It's very

315
00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:30,908
tricky to say, I'm not going to make my best wine

316
00:19:31,004 --> 00:19:34,300
this year. Yeah, right. That's a good point. And the other thing is

317
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:37,760
that when confronted to that situation,

318
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:41,868
how many are we deciding? How much our

319
00:19:41,924 --> 00:19:45,612
blend? Seven of us. Seven of us, more or less. Yeah. And

320
00:19:45,636 --> 00:19:49,068
when you think that, let's hypothetically, we might have, I don't know,

321
00:19:49,124 --> 00:19:52,780
5,000 consumers of Rubicon. So seven people are

322
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:56,538
deciding that they will not have our wine. Wow.

323
00:19:56,714 --> 00:19:58,230
A little bit too much.

324
00:20:00,370 --> 00:20:04,170
So why don't we do our best job and

325
00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:07,670
then decide them to, I don't know, to judge it.

326
00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:10,470
So you have how many different

327
00:20:11,490 --> 00:20:15,194
varieties are you bottling? Yeah, Varietals

328
00:20:15,242 --> 00:20:18,922
on site? There's 13. And so this Inglenook has

329
00:20:18,946 --> 00:20:22,602
13 different labels on the shelf? No, we

330
00:20:22,626 --> 00:20:26,420
have five different wines that make. So we have two

331
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:30,132
Cabernet Sauvignon driven wines. We have Rubicon, which is our premier wine, and then also

332
00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:33,972
a Cabernet Sauvignon. And then we have our

333
00:20:33,996 --> 00:20:36,360
other red is RC Syrah

334
00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:41,732
for Mr. Coppola's son, Roman. Okay. And

335
00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:45,172
then we have two whites. We have a Sauvignon Blanc, which we also add some

336
00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:48,820
Semillon into. And then we have a RN white

337
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,058
blend of Marsan, Rousson and Viognier. Wow, that's quite a

338
00:20:52,114 --> 00:20:55,946
diversity in varietals. It is, yeah.

339
00:20:55,978 --> 00:20:59,658
Yeah. That's pretty interesting. And I mean, my wife won't drink

340
00:20:59,674 --> 00:21:03,418
Syrah as much as I've tried to trick her into drinking something

341
00:21:03,474 --> 00:21:07,322
that was made from Syrah that hopefully she wouldn't notice. But

342
00:21:07,346 --> 00:21:11,098
she 90% of the time catches me. She's a Bordeaux woman.

343
00:21:11,154 --> 00:21:14,698
That's all she likes to drink. And Pinot. She likes Pinot. But how are those

344
00:21:14,754 --> 00:21:18,362
received by the public? The Syrahs and the Rousseau Marsan, I mean, those are

345
00:21:18,386 --> 00:21:22,124
unusual. Is it club member type thing or is

346
00:21:22,132 --> 00:21:25,980
it broad market? The Syrah now is wine club

347
00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:29,852
only. Just because productions dropped over the past few years, we've had to do some

348
00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:33,548
vineyard replants. But the Marsan Rousseau vignette,

349
00:21:33,564 --> 00:21:37,356
we do the majority direct to consumer, and then a chunk

350
00:21:37,388 --> 00:21:40,732
of it is able to go out through distribution in the US And a little

351
00:21:40,756 --> 00:21:43,916
bit throughout the world. I have to tell you, when I took over my dad's

352
00:21:43,948 --> 00:21:47,152
company, I actually bought it from him. He'll tell you that I bought it for

353
00:21:47,176 --> 00:21:49,260
a dollar. It's not true. I have the contract.

354
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,900
So he passed away a couple years ago. But

355
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,300
I found the contract. That's why I said that

356
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,872
I was going through the handoff documents that he gave me, which was the P

357
00:22:01,896 --> 00:22:05,580
and L from the company at the time. And we had about Maybe we had

358
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,020
900 members or a thousand members, something like that.

359
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,770
And the competition, which

360
00:22:13,810 --> 00:22:17,578
there was no third party competition. One of the month Club was the only sort

361
00:22:17,594 --> 00:22:21,210
of independent company featuring wines. All the rest, there were

362
00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:25,030
five were winery and England Oak was one of them.

363
00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:26,990
It was like Martini.

364
00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:33,242
I could find the document, but there was five and those. That was the

365
00:22:33,266 --> 00:22:36,874
competition, so to speak, which I never really considered winery based clubs

366
00:22:36,922 --> 00:22:40,714
competition because people join your club because they come here, they experience

367
00:22:40,802 --> 00:22:44,054
the wines and every time they get that package they go, oh, I remember that

368
00:22:44,062 --> 00:22:47,222
day we were, you know, talking to Enrique and

369
00:22:47,326 --> 00:22:51,062
Jonathan. It's very important part of our industry today.

370
00:22:51,166 --> 00:22:54,982
How, how has the DTC side supported what you

371
00:22:55,006 --> 00:22:58,582
guys are doing? It's the backbone to it. It's

372
00:22:58,646 --> 00:23:02,278
really building those relationships with those customers and, and having those

373
00:23:02,334 --> 00:23:06,134
longtime wine club members. We've got a whole section of our

374
00:23:06,142 --> 00:23:09,228
wine club that's been with us for over 20 years. Wow, that's

375
00:23:09,244 --> 00:23:13,020
amazing. My average tenure, which

376
00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:16,908
was really good for an independent club was two, two years. But

377
00:23:16,964 --> 00:23:20,200
when I sold the club in 19 two years ago,

378
00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:24,412
I did find people, you know, that were around from the early 80s that

379
00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:28,012
were still buying. And there's just a, you know, a reliance and a.

380
00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:31,740
Really for you folks, it's a, a trust

381
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:35,660
built between you and what you're producing and what

382
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:39,036
these people can tell the stories. And here's my problem with today's

383
00:23:39,148 --> 00:23:42,972
industry. The Internet is, you know, it's there obviously it

384
00:23:42,996 --> 00:23:46,844
was not going anywhere, but it's created bargain hunters and

385
00:23:46,932 --> 00:23:50,348
Groupon created bargain hunters. It clobbered my business in the beginning because

386
00:23:50,404 --> 00:23:54,040
Groupon, everybody's just looking for a deal. And I think

387
00:23:54,660 --> 00:23:58,268
I'd never been to this location, driving up the driveway. The whole experience

388
00:23:58,404 --> 00:24:02,022
is the experience. And I think that's critical

389
00:24:02,086 --> 00:24:05,862
to today's industry. Not just Inglenook, but for

390
00:24:05,886 --> 00:24:09,670
us to grow as an industry is to develop these experiences.

391
00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:13,334
Yeah, yeah. You create loyalty by offering

392
00:24:13,382 --> 00:24:16,850
things or by. Yeah, by

393
00:24:17,230 --> 00:24:20,854
having things that consumer can find

394
00:24:20,942 --> 00:24:23,610
that they will feel linked

395
00:24:24,750 --> 00:24:27,632
to the place, to the, through the

396
00:24:27,656 --> 00:24:31,328
experiences. For me, you were

397
00:24:31,384 --> 00:24:35,060
saying something before about the history and how it's not in the bottle.

398
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,200
We say here that, well, depending on the vintage, but

399
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,040
sometimes a good percentage of the wine is

400
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,432
outside the bottle. That's right. With the attached

401
00:24:46,496 --> 00:24:50,048
history, whatever happened in that vintage with

402
00:24:50,104 --> 00:24:53,520
the Heritage, as defined as previously we

403
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,242
said that we have here. So is part of

404
00:24:57,266 --> 00:25:00,922
that outside part of the wine is that experience that you

405
00:25:00,946 --> 00:25:04,570
have when you come here and there is like a

406
00:25:04,610 --> 00:25:08,442
loop of people that. Let's say we start with

407
00:25:08,466 --> 00:25:12,218
a member here that goes out and talk

408
00:25:12,274 --> 00:25:15,962
about us, and then somebody else go to the market,

409
00:25:16,066 --> 00:25:19,642
buys the wine, and then he wants to visit here and becomes also a

410
00:25:19,666 --> 00:25:22,640
member. So there is a. I would say,

411
00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:27,156
retrofitting of. You're exactly right. Yeah, yeah.

412
00:25:27,268 --> 00:25:30,724
Which is really useful and

413
00:25:30,812 --> 00:25:34,068
healthy. You put on events for the club members,

414
00:25:34,124 --> 00:25:37,892
obviously. Absolutely. They come and experience the same

415
00:25:37,916 --> 00:25:41,668
people come every time. Or do you have, like. There's honestly a chunk

416
00:25:41,684 --> 00:25:45,348
of people who come every single time or to a majority of events. And

417
00:25:45,404 --> 00:25:48,948
then there's lots of other club members that come when they're in town or it's

418
00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:52,532
always fun to meet new wine club members that signed up and then that's their

419
00:25:52,556 --> 00:25:56,256
first event. And trying to build those relationships and

420
00:25:56,328 --> 00:25:59,984
really try to secure them. As an advocate for the winery

421
00:26:00,032 --> 00:26:03,680
for. The future, I think it's a critical

422
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,552
part of where wine is in the world today. We know that

423
00:26:07,576 --> 00:26:11,232
consumption is down. We know that the Gen Zs are being bombarded with

424
00:26:11,256 --> 00:26:14,900
flavored drinks and White Claw, which. I don't know how you drink that stuff.

425
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,328
And non alk is becoming a thing. I don't think it's

426
00:26:19,344 --> 00:26:23,024
a real thing necessarily, but I went to the fancy food show in

427
00:26:23,032 --> 00:26:26,364
Vegas a couple years ago. We used to go every year in San Francisco.

428
00:26:26,492 --> 00:26:30,160
And the preeminent theme

429
00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,760
of beverage that year was non alk

430
00:26:34,580 --> 00:26:38,044
and non alk Prosecco, non alk champagne, non alk

431
00:26:38,092 --> 00:26:41,820
whatever. And then non alk distilled spirits. And I thought, oh, my God, this is

432
00:26:41,860 --> 00:26:45,308
horrible. It was undrinkable. I mean, how do you drink it? Why do you drink

433
00:26:45,324 --> 00:26:49,036
it right when you can have an ice glass of wine? But

434
00:26:49,108 --> 00:26:52,732
we're against those pressures. There's a lot of pressure on the marketplace right

435
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:56,512
now to that. And I think, and

436
00:26:56,536 --> 00:27:00,240
I say this all the time, is probably to the consumers. I say it

437
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,792
not too much, but, you know, the story can't be when I'm at

438
00:27:03,816 --> 00:27:07,140
dinner. I got this for five bucks on the Internet.

439
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,152
Is that a story? No, But I went to Engle Nook and I

440
00:27:11,176 --> 00:27:14,752
sat and I sat with Ryan and Enrique, I mean, Jonathan, Enrique,

441
00:27:14,896 --> 00:27:18,576
and they told me the stories of Francis Ford

442
00:27:18,608 --> 00:27:22,224
Coppola. And we walked the vineyard and we looked inside the barrel room and

443
00:27:22,312 --> 00:27:25,790
we did all those things. And it's kind of an escape.

444
00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:30,122
Every Time you get that package, you open up the box, you see the label

445
00:27:30,186 --> 00:27:33,850
and you kind of drift away. You connect again with

446
00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:37,610
that experience. Yeah, absolutely. And sorry for going

447
00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:41,050
back down. No, please do the conversation. But I don't know,

448
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:44,778
Jonathan, if it happens to you talking about the loyalty of

449
00:27:44,834 --> 00:27:48,458
some of the wine club members that they start talking to you about

450
00:27:48,514 --> 00:27:52,338
people that you never. So in the winery. Because they were.

451
00:27:52,474 --> 00:27:54,950
They have more seniority than ourselves. Yes.

452
00:27:56,970 --> 00:28:00,674
That's interesting. So people that aren't here anymore, that. Yeah.

453
00:28:00,722 --> 00:28:04,258
So we're learning from them. Yeah. Oh, I remember when he was this.

454
00:28:04,394 --> 00:28:08,066
Oh, never heard about that. So Gustav Niebaum,

455
00:28:08,258 --> 00:28:12,034
right. Was he the founder. He founded in 1879. He was a Finnish

456
00:28:12,082 --> 00:28:15,874
sea captain. Really? Yep. You know, that's interesting to me

457
00:28:15,882 --> 00:28:18,740
about Napa's history. So much

458
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,792
immigration, almost all immigration right at that point. Now we have

459
00:28:22,816 --> 00:28:26,020
Argentina, but we had Finnish, we had Swiss, we had.

460
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,632
The Christian Brothers were already here. But I mean, that's a pretty interesting part of

461
00:28:30,656 --> 00:28:33,580
this, the history of the valley. Oh, absolutely.

462
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,152
He made his money selling furs

463
00:28:38,216 --> 00:28:41,880
from Alaska and then he made probably about

464
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,544
$10 million at the time. So today that's ungodly sum of

465
00:28:45,552 --> 00:28:49,032
money. Yeah. And really could have bought any chateau in the

466
00:28:49,056 --> 00:28:52,904
world and decided to start one here because he thought it

467
00:28:52,912 --> 00:28:56,380
was the best terroir that he could find. As a Finnish

468
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,680
fur trader. Fur trader, yeah. He had loved wine. Was.

469
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,408
It was. Had to be one of the first. We were,

470
00:29:04,464 --> 00:29:07,260
I think, the fourth oldest winery in the valley. Yeah.

471
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,380
I find that interesting and fascinating that the immigration,

472
00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:16,106
particularly in today's political environment that how important

473
00:29:16,258 --> 00:29:20,074
immigrants to America and just founding our industry alone,

474
00:29:20,122 --> 00:29:22,830
let alone many other industries. My father was an immigrant

475
00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:27,034
to facilitate the wine. I

476
00:29:27,042 --> 00:29:29,110
mean, it's incredible. Really.

477
00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:35,914
I would like that. That's why I do this is to tell those kinds of

478
00:29:35,922 --> 00:29:39,230
stories, to figure out that there's so much impact. And

479
00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:42,958
California is a special case of immigration because

480
00:29:43,014 --> 00:29:46,370
even many Americans are immigrant into California.

481
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:50,974
I mean, really. My dad was from Cairo and, you

482
00:29:50,982 --> 00:29:54,750
know, started, you know, created the direct consumer wine business in

483
00:29:54,790 --> 00:29:58,302
America. It was. He was the first and still own the. I don't own that.

484
00:29:58,326 --> 00:30:01,086
I sold the name, actually. But the Wine of the Month Club was a trademark

485
00:30:01,198 --> 00:30:04,868
name of ours. And you know, the funny thing is we.

486
00:30:04,974 --> 00:30:08,680
The premise of it in 1972 that I carried through all

487
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,100
my career and I kind of sold it for two reasons. One was,

488
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,020
you know, the industry is getting very tough. I'd done it for 35 years. And,

489
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,152
you know, we had other things to do at this point. And the economies of

490
00:30:20,176 --> 00:30:23,976
scale are growing down because it took a social networker, a digital

491
00:30:24,048 --> 00:30:27,480
designer on staff, videographer. All that became

492
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,192
overhead. But more importantly was I

493
00:30:31,216 --> 00:30:35,032
wasn't finding the stuff that we used to find. There weren't the

494
00:30:35,056 --> 00:30:38,728
overstocks of interesting wines. Let's just face it. I

495
00:30:38,784 --> 00:30:42,440
faced the 10 year old charbono, which is incredible in the bottle at the time.

496
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,104
But you know, I would find those kinds of wines at the price I could

497
00:30:46,112 --> 00:30:49,544
afford to show customers. And those weren't happening. We were getting,

498
00:30:49,712 --> 00:30:53,544
you know, 50 cent a liter white from Spain,

499
00:30:53,592 --> 00:30:57,272
in the middle of Spain from Valencia, that was shipped over here

500
00:30:57,296 --> 00:31:01,012
in 20,000, literally vinyl bladders, you know, and that's what

501
00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:04,580
we were getting for the same price. And I didn't want to show

502
00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:08,100
that. I didn't want to show wines like that. That wasn't why I had started

503
00:31:08,140 --> 00:31:11,780
this and fell in love with the industry. Did you, did

504
00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:13,960
you fall in love with winemaking

505
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:20,036
when you started or did it take a little bit of time to

506
00:31:20,188 --> 00:31:23,812
realize this is really it? Actually I come

507
00:31:23,836 --> 00:31:27,368
from a complete non winemaking background. I grew up outside of Boston

508
00:31:27,444 --> 00:31:30,700
and not really known for the wines out there. Yeah, right.

509
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,688
But my grandfather was an old world Italian and made

510
00:31:34,744 --> 00:31:38,340
wine in the basement. So I grew up helping him make wine.

511
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,176
And then he passed away right before I was about to graduate

512
00:31:42,208 --> 00:31:45,952
college and decided to keep the family tradition going. And

513
00:31:45,976 --> 00:31:49,712
I fell in love with it and really wasn't as enthused with my

514
00:31:49,736 --> 00:31:53,290
day job at that time. Yeah, that's what happens.

515
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,822
Was it corporate America? It was, it was. I was working in tech at the

516
00:31:56,846 --> 00:32:00,422
time. I was a entry level programmer. And so I moved out to

517
00:32:00,446 --> 00:32:03,990
California about 20 years ago now, worked my first

518
00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:07,766
harvest and haven't looked back. And that was it. Yeah. And

519
00:32:07,838 --> 00:32:11,558
you, you want to have a brand one day? I do not, you know. No.

520
00:32:11,614 --> 00:32:14,742
You don't have to market it, sell it. You like these out of it. I

521
00:32:14,766 --> 00:32:18,214
love to make wine and talk about wine. I just don't want to

522
00:32:18,222 --> 00:32:21,884
be having to hold up to the sales part of

523
00:32:21,892 --> 00:32:25,068
it. Yes. I think that's what happens when people,

524
00:32:25,124 --> 00:32:28,956
particularly you make your money as a surgeon or you're a government

525
00:32:29,028 --> 00:32:32,348
contractor building freeways and you go, I'm going to go to Napa Valley and I'm

526
00:32:32,364 --> 00:32:35,852
going to buy a Chateau and I'm going to have this wonderful lifestyle that I

527
00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:39,640
see. And then I think eventually they get tired of losing money

528
00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:43,820
and it's like, oh, we got to figure this out because it's a whole different

529
00:32:43,860 --> 00:32:47,348
part of the business. I think the complication of it is

530
00:32:47,404 --> 00:32:51,044
what confuses most people before they get. Into it,

531
00:32:51,132 --> 00:32:54,516
is the unseen part of it. Yes. Oh, yeah. The distributor side.

532
00:32:54,588 --> 00:32:58,372
And I don't know. Working in a vineyard is. Oh, it's so

533
00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:02,164
romantic. And then when you have to spend hours there in the cold or heat.

534
00:33:02,292 --> 00:33:05,988
Yeah. This part I didn't know about. Or hours

535
00:33:06,044 --> 00:33:09,844
at the sorting table during harvest. And I kill everything that I

536
00:33:09,852 --> 00:33:13,370
put in the ground, so I would be a lousy wine guy.

537
00:33:13,790 --> 00:33:17,542
But I loved marketing it and. But I liked it because

538
00:33:17,566 --> 00:33:21,094
I like telling the stories and telling people these stories. Having.

539
00:33:21,262 --> 00:33:24,886
I'll go back and I'll tell the story of our conversation. And

540
00:33:24,958 --> 00:33:28,770
this is an interesting part of it. Maybe you can shed some light on it.

541
00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:32,210
As intimidating as the subject can be for some people,

542
00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:36,198
and this is a whole social. I'm gonna. I'm gonna dumb

543
00:33:36,214 --> 00:33:39,958
down wine and make it approachable. I think that's impossible because it's

544
00:33:39,974 --> 00:33:43,686
complicated and it's interesting, and the more you want to learn, the more you can.

545
00:33:43,758 --> 00:33:47,462
Right. But the conversation at dinner time always ends up

546
00:33:47,486 --> 00:33:51,222
on the wine. Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah.

547
00:33:51,366 --> 00:33:55,062
And that's not intimidating. People want to hear

548
00:33:55,086 --> 00:33:58,822
it. Yeah. And talking about intimidation

549
00:33:58,886 --> 00:34:02,726
and wine, I think that sometimes there is a mistake in making

550
00:34:02,798 --> 00:34:06,324
it too kind of an expertise, this field

551
00:34:06,412 --> 00:34:10,260
of conversation. When

552
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:13,844
I hear people, you know, at the dinner table saying,

553
00:34:13,932 --> 00:34:16,800
well, I don't know too much about wine, so I.

554
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:21,316
You don't need to know. You don't. You need to enjoy and

555
00:34:21,388 --> 00:34:25,092
see. And your personal preference is the main driver of

556
00:34:25,116 --> 00:34:28,740
your opinion. It's fine as long as you are honest and not try to like

557
00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:32,292
something that you don't like. And if you like a wine of $5 a

558
00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:35,782
bottle, that's great. You're lucky. Yeah.

559
00:34:35,846 --> 00:34:39,590
Yeah. You're lucky because you found something for

560
00:34:39,630 --> 00:34:43,478
$5. You know, it's funny. I think

561
00:34:43,534 --> 00:34:46,662
everybody, Even though there's people like, it's too

562
00:34:46,686 --> 00:34:50,422
subjective. And it is. I can like something, and

563
00:34:50,446 --> 00:34:54,246
you. You may not. However, I think almost

564
00:34:54,318 --> 00:34:58,006
everybody agrees when a proper glass of wine, an honest glass of wine,

565
00:34:58,038 --> 00:35:01,062
when a Rubicon is set. Set in front of you, that there's a

566
00:35:01,086 --> 00:35:03,960
recognition of its value.

567
00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:07,916
Definitely. Everybody can appreciate it because it's. Because

568
00:35:07,988 --> 00:35:11,452
why? Because it's expressing. It's expressing its sense of

569
00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:15,212
place. And there's not many areas of the

570
00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:18,812
world that can provide that and really show that incredible

571
00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:22,220
sense of place. And especially here in

572
00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:26,060
Napa, we've got people who are doing so many different styles

573
00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:29,340
of wine where you could have vineyards like

574
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:33,180
Tocquelon down the street and all the different winemakers of it, and you put

575
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:36,088
10 of those side by side by side, and you could think they're completely different

576
00:35:36,144 --> 00:35:39,752
vintages and vineyards just because of how

577
00:35:39,776 --> 00:35:42,300
differently they're made. That's really interesting.

578
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,368
And people will. They. You know, it's funny because I have friends

579
00:35:47,424 --> 00:35:51,000
that recognize. They go, yes. You know, same

580
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,280
winemaker, two different vineyards, same vintage, same

581
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,008
grape. They go, they're different. Yes.

582
00:35:58,104 --> 00:36:01,340
Yeah. And let me introduce something. I was thinking of Jonathan

583
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,520
yesterday, thinking of the concept. This

584
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,392
may sound a little bit weird, but we

585
00:36:10,416 --> 00:36:14,008
don't make wine here. We don't make wine. That does sound

586
00:36:14,024 --> 00:36:17,752
weird. The wine comes in

587
00:36:17,776 --> 00:36:20,340
some way from the side.

588
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,352
And I will equate you to Michelangelo in

589
00:36:25,376 --> 00:36:28,370
the sense that you remember that they said that

590
00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:32,066
Michelangelo saw the sculpture behind

591
00:36:32,138 --> 00:36:35,778
the marble block, and the only thing that he had to do was

592
00:36:35,834 --> 00:36:39,362
to kind of peel it, bring it out. Well, I wouldn't like to be in

593
00:36:39,386 --> 00:36:42,738
his shoes, in Jonathan's shoes, because it's your

594
00:36:42,794 --> 00:36:45,990
ability to peel off what you need to peel

595
00:36:46,330 --> 00:36:49,970
or to reveal the wine by trying to. Not to mess

596
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:53,450
anything up. So. And that is more

597
00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:56,858
difficult than making something, because when you

598
00:36:56,914 --> 00:37:00,710
make, you have a goal. You kind of build something

599
00:37:01,490 --> 00:37:05,290
and, you know, and you have the recipe for that. And this is not

600
00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:08,954
the recipe thing. This is revealing something that is hidden

601
00:37:09,002 --> 00:37:12,410
there. And you have to have an ability that is much more

602
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:15,722
difficult, that is to see what is behind there,

603
00:37:15,906 --> 00:37:19,318
to kind of remove what you have to remove to make it.

604
00:37:19,474 --> 00:37:23,182
That's sort of separating the art from the science, isn't it? Like,

605
00:37:23,206 --> 00:37:26,414
you can have all the metrics, the bricks, and the phenolic ripeness and all the

606
00:37:26,422 --> 00:37:30,158
things that go into the ph, but that's not really what you're

607
00:37:30,174 --> 00:37:33,694
talking about. No. There's so much art in our craft, especially in the

608
00:37:33,702 --> 00:37:36,930
vineyards as well. I mean, yes, we have all the science,

609
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:40,974
but you're trying to make predictions

610
00:37:41,022 --> 00:37:44,718
on what the weather's going to be like a few months down the line. None

611
00:37:44,734 --> 00:37:48,462
of us know what's going to happen. You're rolling the

612
00:37:48,486 --> 00:37:52,294
dice every single year and hoping you make the best decisions

613
00:37:52,342 --> 00:37:55,878
possible. But I think what Enrique is saying is that at some

614
00:37:55,934 --> 00:37:59,670
point, when you get to harvest, your ability to

615
00:37:59,710 --> 00:38:03,494
taste the grape, understand the vintage prior, understand, you

616
00:38:03,502 --> 00:38:07,222
know, the whole process from Bud break to now, and say, okay, this

617
00:38:07,246 --> 00:38:10,838
is what we're going to craft from this. This is what it's giving me

618
00:38:10,974 --> 00:38:14,742
and not screwing that up. The giving. Yeah. You are

619
00:38:14,766 --> 00:38:18,262
getting something to feel it. And that is more difficult than

620
00:38:18,286 --> 00:38:21,954
making. It's like those conversations they have. They got. The tap

621
00:38:22,002 --> 00:38:25,634
roots are going down. We're down 30 meters, and we're getting this nutrient. We're in

622
00:38:25,642 --> 00:38:28,470
this kind of soil. And it doesn't explain

623
00:38:28,970 --> 00:38:32,674
why grapes grab

624
00:38:32,722 --> 00:38:36,530
all that information and create a beverage. That explains that

625
00:38:36,570 --> 00:38:39,618
information. Absolutely. It just explains it how.

626
00:38:39,754 --> 00:38:43,346
Right. How it's doing. Well, we have tap roots, and we have the little micro

627
00:38:43,378 --> 00:38:46,082
exchanges of things going on, nutrients, and they had to go down and get the

628
00:38:46,106 --> 00:38:49,898
water. But whatever it does, it asks me why. And I. And I have.

629
00:38:49,954 --> 00:38:53,786
No one can articulate why grapes do that, why

630
00:38:53,858 --> 00:38:57,674
wine expresses something. It doesn't happen. With pineapples, you go to Maui and

631
00:38:57,682 --> 00:39:01,386
get Maui Blanc. It's not as interesting, right? It's just pineapple

632
00:39:01,418 --> 00:39:05,258
juice. Why? Why? No, it's

633
00:39:05,274 --> 00:39:09,082
true. It's true. It's. And probably

634
00:39:09,146 --> 00:39:12,970
there is no need to know why, but. That's right. But

635
00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:16,810
to acknowledge that there is a. Probably a very

636
00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:20,458
complex process through that will give you something that

637
00:39:20,514 --> 00:39:24,122
is. Could be unique to your place. And the

638
00:39:24,146 --> 00:39:27,962
only thing which is not a minor thing you have to

639
00:39:27,986 --> 00:39:31,466
do is to try to bring it

640
00:39:31,618 --> 00:39:35,322
out. That's really interesting part of the

641
00:39:35,346 --> 00:39:38,150
conversation. We don't care why.

642
00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:42,590
We just know it does. And our job, and your job, not

643
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:46,410
mine, your job is to visualize this. Just like

644
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:50,450
visualizing David behind the block of stone

645
00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:54,686
before it gets done and understanding that you got there when you finished

646
00:39:54,718 --> 00:39:57,530
it and getting out of the way.

647
00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:02,142
That's why these acidulated wine, sugared wine, all those things kind

648
00:40:02,166 --> 00:40:05,870
of doctor things up. And you never really

649
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:09,582
get there because you've played with it. That's highlighted by this

650
00:40:09,606 --> 00:40:13,342
one conversation I had with a local friend of mine who has a winery. He

651
00:40:13,366 --> 00:40:16,558
has a small vineyard, and he made his first vintage out of it. And it's

652
00:40:16,574 --> 00:40:20,250
not even appalated. It's just this part of Southern California. And,

653
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:24,318
you know, it was palatable. But he took it to a custom

654
00:40:24,374 --> 00:40:28,110
crush. And I talked to the winemaker, and I said, well, you know, the

655
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:31,582
acid was high and whatever, you know, as you'd expect, he goes, oh, we can

656
00:40:31,606 --> 00:40:35,192
fix all that. And that's, you know,

657
00:40:35,296 --> 00:40:38,952
I don't want you to fix it. I want you to have it understood, you

658
00:40:38,976 --> 00:40:42,520
know, in the bottle. Not. Not fix it, because that's just playing with

659
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,408
it. And that's the part of wine that I think. But we need these things,

660
00:40:46,464 --> 00:40:50,180
right? We need Josh, we need apothec red.

661
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,260
We need the wines on the supermarket shelf to bring

662
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,200
consumers to the table. That otherwise may not

663
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,820
right something for everybody out there. Yeah,

664
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,660
yeah. And it's true that there is a.

665
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,740
I think that there are only not that many

666
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,096
products that have such a

667
00:41:14,168 --> 00:41:17,744
huge range of prices. And you can go from a

668
00:41:17,752 --> 00:41:21,168
bottle that is probably like we said, $5 something

669
00:41:21,304 --> 00:41:24,420
thousand dollars and everybody finds

670
00:41:25,060 --> 00:41:28,520
the reason why to pay what they pay for different

671
00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:32,044
levels of wine and is so diverse

672
00:41:32,092 --> 00:41:35,772
and complex. There's some very honest

673
00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:39,676
wines at all price ranges. The other night I opened a bottle

674
00:41:39,708 --> 00:41:43,436
of Cheval Blanc for my wife because it was her birthday. And my son

675
00:41:43,468 --> 00:41:46,060
in law says this is really good. I said yeah. He goes, is it really

676
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:49,884
worth. Let's say it's a thousand dollars a bottle. He said, were they worth

677
00:41:50,012 --> 00:41:53,780
200 more? You know, 200 times, 20 times a 50 bottle of wine?

678
00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:57,236
I said that's hard to acknowledge from a character

679
00:41:57,268 --> 00:42:00,360
standpoint. But you just had Cheval Blanc.

680
00:42:01,420 --> 00:42:04,880
So regardless, you know, it's got the mystique around it.

681
00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:09,440
I think we, we are in a position

682
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:12,800
to break out of this

683
00:42:14,860 --> 00:42:18,680
doldrums of wine that we're in this pit sort of.

684
00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:23,100
It just ebbs and flows. But I think what Engelnook is

685
00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:26,764
doing is moving the needle to the direction that

686
00:42:26,852 --> 00:42:30,460
in general we want the industry to go. We want it to be expressive. We

687
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:34,044
want to tell people about how a good glass of wine feels and what it

688
00:42:34,052 --> 00:42:36,160
does for you. Do you guys chase

689
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:41,868
medals and honors and scores? We don't. Our

690
00:42:41,924 --> 00:42:45,720
goal is to always just make the best expression of the site.

691
00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:49,704
If we happen to get good scores, that's a bummer bonus.

692
00:42:49,832 --> 00:42:53,432
But they're sent to the various places suckling and enthusiasts and all

693
00:42:53,456 --> 00:42:57,048
that. Yeah, they are judged by. Do you think those are

694
00:42:57,184 --> 00:43:00,776
pertinent these days? Do you think they're relied

695
00:43:00,808 --> 00:43:03,976
upon like they used to be when Parker started kind of thing? I don't think

696
00:43:04,048 --> 00:43:07,832
so. I don't think they're as important as they were 20ish years

697
00:43:07,856 --> 00:43:11,020
ago. What's your sense?

698
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,980
And the other thing is that

699
00:43:17,350 --> 00:43:20,490
it depends. I don't want to make a very

700
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:24,622
general statement, but let's say that I become a

701
00:43:24,646 --> 00:43:27,850
critic of wine and then

702
00:43:28,310 --> 00:43:31,930
there will be wines that I enjoy more than others.

703
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:35,930
And then am I a guidance for

704
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:39,450
anybody? Just because I'm kind of

705
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:43,270
placing my values on different type of wine.

706
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:47,254
And I would be sad if a consumer

707
00:43:47,302 --> 00:43:50,982
goes and say okay, oh, let's see which one Enrique like the most? Because that

708
00:43:51,006 --> 00:43:54,486
is. Well, that is My taste? Yeah, you know, right,

709
00:43:54,638 --> 00:43:58,486
that's a good point. Why don't you experiment by yourself? That's a really good point.

710
00:43:58,558 --> 00:44:02,310
Well, that's why we got then this uniformization of taste at some point

711
00:44:02,350 --> 00:44:05,974
that you were talking about in the 90s or 80s, that everybody

712
00:44:06,022 --> 00:44:09,870
pretty much was trying to make the wine to satisfy whoever was

713
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:13,330
a given score so the consumer could buy your wine.

714
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:18,370
So it's true that it's good as a guidance.

715
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:22,718
Like with movies, you sometimes go and see what the critics say and

716
00:44:22,774 --> 00:44:26,302
sometimes you say, okay, but if there is an honest description behind

717
00:44:26,406 --> 00:44:30,110
it and you might say, okay, the guy doesn't like this

718
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:33,870
because it features this characteristic, but

719
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:37,250
I do like those things, for me, that could be useful,

720
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,312
then the value part of the thing is possibly less

721
00:44:41,336 --> 00:44:44,460
useful. You know, that's a good point because that's the other thing.

722
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,140
We're out of time actually. But there's so much to talk about.

723
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,544
There are contemporary thoughts on LinkedIn and

724
00:44:52,632 --> 00:44:56,464
social that say we need to change the language of wine. And I'm thinking

725
00:44:56,512 --> 00:45:00,224
like I go back to my father's days with Michael Broadbent and Harry Waugh and

726
00:45:00,232 --> 00:45:04,022
all these English tasters and they had a specific list of things they used except

727
00:45:04,036 --> 00:45:07,362
explain the value of a glass of wine. And it was just confusing to the

728
00:45:07,386 --> 00:45:11,202
novice to listen to Michael Broadbent, as it is today for

729
00:45:11,226 --> 00:45:14,962
a novice to listen to suckling. Right. If you change the

730
00:45:14,986 --> 00:45:18,242
language and you make it more like Gary Vaynerchuk and you talk about, you know,

731
00:45:18,266 --> 00:45:21,682
Fruit Loops and Captain Crunch, it's just as

732
00:45:21,706 --> 00:45:24,910
confusing for the next person. Like, I don't understand what that means

733
00:45:25,290 --> 00:45:28,802
because I never grew up with those. So I don't. You know, these descriptors that

734
00:45:28,826 --> 00:45:32,562
people use. Changing the language of wine is not going to change anything. It's just

735
00:45:32,586 --> 00:45:36,428
going to make it just as confusing for the next generation to figure out. But,

736
00:45:36,484 --> 00:45:39,920
you know, the point I was going to make was I had a Canary Islands

737
00:45:40,660 --> 00:45:43,884
and I can't remember the varietal now, but it was obscure varietal from the Canary

738
00:45:43,932 --> 00:45:47,660
Islands. It was really incredible, all volcanic, all that stuff. And

739
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:51,356
it had 90 something points. And if I, if I'm

740
00:45:51,388 --> 00:45:55,084
a point shopper and I go buy an Engelna cab

741
00:45:55,212 --> 00:45:58,828
that's got the same 90 something points and I put them next to each other,

742
00:45:58,884 --> 00:46:02,704
they're entirely completely different wines. And so you're just going

743
00:46:02,712 --> 00:46:05,792
to go, I didn't like that so much one way or the other. And so

744
00:46:05,816 --> 00:46:09,312
I'm not sure this point system really Works in that realm. And I think what

745
00:46:09,336 --> 00:46:12,460
you're saying is an important part is which. Well, if you do find

746
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,296
somebody that tastes wine like suckling or one of those guys that you trust,

747
00:46:17,328 --> 00:46:20,960
their judgment because of what you've bought from them is a good

748
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,752
indication. And I always said this in the club. I said, how

749
00:46:24,776 --> 00:46:28,444
do you know when you don't like a wine, it's a

750
00:46:28,452 --> 00:46:31,960
Sonoma cab, that it wasn't. It was just not a good

751
00:46:32,260 --> 00:46:36,092
version of that wine? Or you just don't like that varietal from

752
00:46:36,116 --> 00:46:39,160
that location? How do you know that? And I think that's what these

753
00:46:39,940 --> 00:46:43,692
magazines and raiders do. And to make

754
00:46:43,716 --> 00:46:47,244
things more confusing, first, the definition of quality

755
00:46:47,292 --> 00:46:51,036
is also another concept that is very difficult to grasp,

756
00:46:51,148 --> 00:46:54,170
is what is quality quality?

757
00:46:54,590 --> 00:46:58,214
So what we discuss

758
00:46:58,302 --> 00:47:01,970
internally here is that I think the

759
00:47:02,270 --> 00:47:05,254
best definition has to do with

760
00:47:05,342 --> 00:47:08,966
expectation. So you

761
00:47:09,118 --> 00:47:12,966
say, okay, I'm trying to achieve this characteristic

762
00:47:12,998 --> 00:47:15,730
in a product wine in this case.

763
00:47:16,110 --> 00:47:19,884
And as much as you can achieve

764
00:47:19,932 --> 00:47:23,440
that, you will be closer to your best quality.

765
00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:27,372
And that within that concept, you allow for

766
00:47:27,396 --> 00:47:30,812
people to say, yes, it's good quality. Achieve what,

767
00:47:30,996 --> 00:47:34,764
you know, you were pursuing. But I still don't like it.

768
00:47:34,932 --> 00:47:38,732
So I cannot like a wine that I consider, yeah, is

769
00:47:38,836 --> 00:47:42,332
good quality. Because it got to the point where it was,

770
00:47:42,516 --> 00:47:46,230
you know, they wanted to get. Yes, right. But I still.

771
00:47:46,610 --> 00:47:50,330
Not something that I enjoy perfectly fine. As long as you,

772
00:47:50,370 --> 00:47:54,154
you know, now, you know, like my wife Sira, I

773
00:47:54,162 --> 00:47:56,458
mean, and I stumped her a lot of times. You know, I give her coat,

774
00:47:56,474 --> 00:48:00,234
the Rhone. I gave her stuff from different parts of the world. It's like, I

775
00:48:00,242 --> 00:48:03,226
don't like this. I'm like, oh, my God. How do you figure that out? But

776
00:48:03,298 --> 00:48:06,922
she can still say, it's a good quality syrup. It's quality. I don't like

777
00:48:06,946 --> 00:48:10,282
it. I can't tell you how many times I said, no, you don't understand. This

778
00:48:10,306 --> 00:48:12,710
is fine French Burgundy, you know,

779
00:48:15,620 --> 00:48:19,404
I said, and you liked it two weeks ago. We're out of

780
00:48:19,412 --> 00:48:23,004
time. And I. I hope we can do this again one day. I want to

781
00:48:23,012 --> 00:48:26,668
shoot some B roll stuff, but we have so much more to continue

782
00:48:26,724 --> 00:48:30,268
to talk about. And as this industry evolves, we're going to have

783
00:48:30,324 --> 00:48:34,092
different subjects to touch on. But it's already been 50 minutes, if you can believe

784
00:48:34,116 --> 00:48:37,772
it. Wow. It was a very pleasant conversation.

785
00:48:37,836 --> 00:48:41,500
Yeah. I really appreciate the time and not been here.

786
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,580
Really feel like I'm sitting in a piece of history,

787
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,808
and I think that's the story. And accolades

788
00:48:49,824 --> 00:48:53,100
to both of you guys. For taking on this role because

789
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,152
you're defending. Really, My opinion is you're defending this

790
00:48:57,176 --> 00:49:00,576
industry by sharing these experiences in this place.

791
00:49:00,648 --> 00:49:02,880
So cheers. Cheers. Cheers.