March 6, 2025

One Of The First Five Wineries In Napa. Meet The Winemaking Team At Inglenook.

One Of The First Five Wineries In Napa. Meet The Winemaking Team At Inglenook.

What up?  wine enthusiasts! It's your host, Paul K, and welcome to another episode of Wine Talks with Paul Kay. Today, we're on a thrilling away game in the picturesque Napa Valley, home to some of the finest wineries in the world. Join me at the...

What up?  wine enthusiasts! It's your host, Paul K, and welcome to another episode of Wine Talks with Paul Kay. Today, we're on a thrilling away game in the picturesque Napa Valley, home to some of the finest wineries in the world. Join me at the historic Inglewood Winery, where I sit down with the talented winemaker Jonathan Tyer and winery Director Enrique Herrero . It's a fascinating journey through the heart of California's wine country, exploring the rich history and ever-evolving art of winemaking. If you're passionate about wine or just starting your journey, this episode is packed with insights that you won't want to miss. Sit back, pour yourself a glass, and let's dive into the world of Inglewood.

What You'll Hear:

  • The origins and historical significance of varietal wines in America.

  • The influence of French winemaking on New World wineries.

  • The shift in wine consumerism and the quest for authenticity.

  • Inglewood's commitment to showcasing Rutherford's unique identity.

  • The transformation in winemaking styles from the '80s and '90s to today.

  • The decision-making process behind maintaining wine heritage at Inglewood.

  • The role of heritage and identity in wine production.

  • The balance of art and science in winemaking.

  • The challenges and rewards of Napa Valley's diverse winemaking.

  • The enduring importance of direct-to-consumer relationships in the wine industry.

 

In today's episode, we ventured into the illustrious Inglewood Winery, uncovering the intricate balance between tradition and innovation in winemaking. Enrique Herrero and Jonathan Tyer shared their perspectives on how New World wines continue to evolve, drawing from the deep roots of their heritage, embracing authentic expressions of place, and meeting the demands of modern consumerism. Amidst the challenges of changing consumer preferences and a competitive market, Inglewood stands firm in its dedication to crafting wines that not only reflect their unique terroir but also narrate the fascinating stories embedded in Napa Valley's rich soil. Cheers to a blend of history, art, and the future of New World wines!

Transcript
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What I see in the history of the industry is that the Americans

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started with the concept of varietal wines in order to kind of try

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to get attention from the French. If you didn't make wine in

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France, it was not wine. And then when the reputation

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was building the new world, then now is the

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time for us here in California to build upon the

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site, sit back and grab a glass. It's

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Wine Talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are at an away game

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up in the Napa Valley. But to have a conversation with Enrique Herrero and

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Jonathan Tyer at Inglemook Winery is one of the most historic places

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in the Napa Valley. Hey, if you have something nice to say about what we're

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doing here at the podcast, go ahead and say it and give me a review

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and subscribe. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all. But

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that's what keeps our egos going here in this industry. But I want to

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continue this conversation that we just jumped in on

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about the consumerism of wine and the way Cal

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California is moving. You know, it's so refreshing to

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hear that because some of the conversation on the Internet and

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the Facebook and all that social networking is, we've got to come to the

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consumer what they want. We have to produce things that.

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And let's face it, wine is consumer driven.

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And I'm going to highlight this by saying somebody posted on Facebook a

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conversation at Paris Wine and this guy had just

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sold 24 million bottles of peach flavored

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fermented grape juice. And I thought, okay,

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that's probably the quintessential opposite of what we're talking about right

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now. Yeah, no, no, no. And I believe that. And I'm sure that there is

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that in the market. What I think is

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happening, what I'm trying to emphasize is the position

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that as a farming product, because it's

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a production that come from farming and

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winemaking, it's farming. Yeah. You are in

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some way tied to the side where you produce. So you can

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produce. As long as you do make genuine wine,

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you produce what you can, you don't produce what you want.

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So much less you will be able to produce something

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that is coming from a consumer. Say, oh, I would like

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to have a wine that has all these features. Well, you produce

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what you can. To make it short, I always give the example

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of my son. It seems that the

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Coca Cola made in Mexico is preferred among youth

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cane sugar than the American wine than the American

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one. And they are able to

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differentiate Them. And for something that is so typified

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and so made as a Coca Cola,

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we are finding differences. Why do we want to make a

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Cabernet Sauvignon the same everywhere? I agree with you

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and I had this conversation yesterday at Cathiar,

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which is owned by a Bordeaux house and they're

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bringing this Bordelaise philosophy to the table

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here at Inglewinnock. You are trying to represent

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now the Rutherford or wherever your grapes are on. Is that.

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Yeah, it's all Rutherford. It's Rutherford Bench here.

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We've been here for about 150 years now and

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it's really trying to express the best of this

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site. And there's a lot of people in the

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valley who have moved towards this trend of picking a little bit

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earlier and really allowing the site to express itself through those

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wines. I'm glad

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because I think what happened in this 80s 90s was this

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movement toward this sort of monolithic,

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over extracted, juiced up Cabernet. And I, and I'm

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not going to throw any names out, you know, we're not trying to create any

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enemies here. But there's certainly a profile of what

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Napa has landed on. And it sounds like what

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England wants to do is move away to

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expressing what wine really should be. And

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I guess that. But that kind of means staying the course, right? That kind of

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means on your guys behalf you must continue to say this is

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what we're going to do. Because you're working five years out at least, right. To

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figure out what's going to be on the table at a minimum. Yeah. And

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so you have to be pretty diligent to what you're doing.

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Yeah. And you're right in the 90s. And we were part of that

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at some point we were proud to say, oh, it's

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115% new oak. Yeah. Right.

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So dripping with vanilla and SAP.

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And then you realize that. Yeah, it's so

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difficult to differentiate when everybody

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does the same. How are these, how does this happen? Like, is there

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a board? The winery is still owned by Francis Ford

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Coppola, as you mentioned. It's not as it's his flagship,

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it's what he wants to do. He creates, created this amazing brand. I actually

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bought the 1985

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or 87 claret in the club back, back

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in the day. But how, how are these

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decisions made? How do you do you sit as a group and say, look, we

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are going to stay the course. We are going to bring to the table

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what we think Engle Nook represents. It's I Mean, you were here when it

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happened. But it all came from Mr. Coppola. He wanted to

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make wines that he could enjoy with food again. And

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he felt the wines were going too far. And the pendulum

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had swung, especially in the Valley, too far, and really wanted to

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restrain it and brought in our director of winemaking, Philippe

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Pascal from Chateau Margaux. And so that happened in

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2011. Enrique's been here now just over 20 years.

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I've been over here just over 10 years. Wow. There's some. Quite some

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tenure right here. Philosophically, I

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mean, not just. Absolutely. No, no, that is true. You were.

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Jonathan was making an observation because we received wine, we

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become wine club members after 10 years. And he

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was looking at the roster of the people that were going to

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receive this wine and say, wow, we're 52 in this

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condition now, and we have 100 employees. Yeah, thereabouts.

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Yeah. Wow, that's a big winery. Yeah. More of the

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half of the staff here is 10

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years, or. Wow, that's pretty good. Yeah, we were, you know, at the Wine of

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the Month club, I. My warehouse guy was 25

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years. The other guy was like 15

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years. And that's a very important part

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of business, is to be able to maintain a happy

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staff, to get the consistency in what you're doing. And

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nobody brings a new philosophy to the table. Accident, you know, not accidentally,

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but, you know, ad hoc. And then you have to deal with that. But here

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you have a group of people that have. Under the same banner for a long

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time. I mean, I'm assuming this dust behind you is

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part of that same history. Absolutely.

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I swear, it almost looked like you placed it there, but I get it. It

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reminds me of Portugal when you go down to the cellars of the Portuguese

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wineries. So when you come from Argentina, and that's. When did you

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come from. To Argentina? I came here in 1997

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because I was pursuing a degree in

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agronomy, a master's degree in agronomy. So I came

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here, and Davis at the time, well, and still

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was pretty much the, you know, the tip

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of the arrow in terms of evolution

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of science applied to plants and

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crops. And so that's why I came here in

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1987. So I started working here in

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2007, went back to Argentina because I need to

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renew my visa. It was with a student

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visa. And then the winery offered me to come back

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again. So two years later, in 2007. So

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I worked here 2003 to 2005, back

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to Argentina, and came back at the end of 2007 and ever

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since then. And so you consider

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Argentina, South America, the United States, all considered

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New World in a sense. Did you bring

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that philosophy with you from. Were you making wine in Argentina?

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Yes, yes. And actually I grew up in a vineyard

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and it has.

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The consumption profile in Argentina is a little bit different. We

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are pretty much descendant of people from the

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southern part of Europe. So we are

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wine consumer by default. So it's not

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like a fancy thing for us, but everyday thing. I

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remember having wine and water when I was

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probably 8 years old at the table.

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So in my case, my family was producing

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bulk wines, kind of what you consider low quality wines, but it's

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for everyday consumption. So there

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are differences in that aspect. But the

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concept of New Worldly was dumped on us, you know,

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in Australia, the US but by whoever considered themselves to

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be in the old world. So the name, we got

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that name from them. That's true.

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So you are New World. Yeah, you're new, like meaning.

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But I think that there are, if you look at the world map,

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there are areas between, I don't know, 33

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north, where you can grow grapes

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with really good aptitude to make good

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wines and like music. Every country can have their

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wine. There is no better or worse, but it's just

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something that is coming from them. In California, there is,

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I don't know, a signature

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to the wines in California that is different. And we have to accept

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that it's different from many. I think that's

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the premise and like I said,

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the reason wine has been around for 6,000 years and probably

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will continue at least 6,000 years and probably will continue

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with its same attraction to the human

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soul, because it does represent

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something from the soil. I mean, it is. I haven't been able to pin

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this conversation down or this articulate this feeling.

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And it's different than any other product in the world that way.

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Nothing makes you feel like a glass of wine. I'm not talking about the alcohol

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though. That is. No, no, it doesn't hurt. But it has this

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deep rooted human impact on the

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psyche. Yeah. I think the sense of identity is what we

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find in wine that probably we don't find in other

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product. Probably there are some other things I don't know. That's well said.

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But the sense of identity that is kind of linked.

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Yeah, I think that's the new world, essentially the

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winemaker and you. Would you. When you hear a New World, does that

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bother you to call it New World? Does it represent a style? What does it

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represent to you? It's for me it's just realizing we

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don't have the history that Europe does. Right.

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You know, the hundreds or thousands of years of

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winemaking. It's only been here for a few

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hundred years. And I mean, we're one of the oldest

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wineries in the valley and we're about 150 years old. Yeah. Which is

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amazing. Let's see. I was talking when I was at

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Cathy Art. It was.

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It was Martini's place for a little while, and I think

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it started in 1885. When did Inglenook start? 1879.

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Okay. So a little predates that. But they also owned

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Smith, Smith o

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Lafitte, which was founded in 1385. And I go, wow,

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the 500 year difference between the two foundings. I certainly. You can learn

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something because I have this. Correct me if you think I'm wrong or you have

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a different idea, but all that history

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rolls up to. I mean, you sit in these meetings, you sit in this room

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with this dust, and you sit with Enrique and you have these conversations

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and what you. I think impulsively, you

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carry that into the bottle. You can't define it as a piece of

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tannic acid or a fruit character, but the lessons you've learned

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along the way end up in the bottle.

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Yeah, absolutely. No, go ahead. And

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it's also. It's lessons you're learning along the way and then

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always trying to improve. You can't

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get complacent in what you're doing, and you always want to

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make the best product possible. And so that. And

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that's. Therein lies the rep. What does that mean? Well, going back

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to that, I think that you get it very

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correctly, is the lesson learned that for me is

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the true meaning of heritage. Because otherwise heritage becomes

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something so abstract that you don't know what that

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means. Yeah, you're right. But because we're

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transmitting knowledge from

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one generation to another, being in the same place,

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trying to know the. And we still think that we don't know

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our place. Yeah, no, right. I know you're. You never. This industry

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is great in that way. You never stop learning right now because. The more

224
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you learn, the less secure you are.

225
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Yes, right. That's true. Bless you, Noah. I don't know that much. Right.

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But as Jonathan said, this is just is

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conveyance of learning over generations.

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How long have you been doing this? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, that. That

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is what comes to me as the most

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defining meaning of heritage. Otherwise it's kind

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of a blur thing that I wouldn't know how to define. And before I get

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to that question, I was going to ask you there. Part of

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this conversation that I like to have these, to have

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00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:28,148
with folks like you is. Comes from a woman in

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Bordeaux. Her name is May Elian Long song. She was 15

236
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when the Nazis came into her parents chateau at Pesche to

237
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Pichon Longueville and literally shot it up.

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And I had, actually, I was down the street at

239
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Barono, the hotel, and

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her grandson called me and said, if you want to talk to my grandmother, she's

241
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available in an hour in Paris time. So I

242
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got on my computer and got her on the, on the call, and she just

243
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told stories for 45 minutes. But I kept thinking,

244
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how is that not in the bottle today? How is those,

245
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the, the, the drama

246
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and the history and the stress

247
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,716
that in the lessons learned by those folks in the vineyard aren't

248
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in the bottle today? They must be, because

249
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that's part of their history. So you've been doing this 10 years

250
00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:27,042
here, and what brought you to this

251
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place? Honestly, I was really

252
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excited to work with Philippe Pascal, our director of winemaking.

253
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He came from Chateau Margaux to come here, and I wanted to

254
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learn from him, to kind of take that next step in my career. And

255
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it's really become a home for me now.

256
00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:50,452
It's kind of interesting because there's a guy in town, Chris Phelps, he worked at

257
00:15:50,476 --> 00:15:53,280
Margot, he worked at Petrus, he's got his own brand.

258
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:57,892
But we're bringing these guys from, from Bordeaux. We're not making much

259
00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:01,396
Pinot here. Do we make Pinot? No. Yeah. So we're bringing

260
00:16:01,428 --> 00:16:05,060
Bordeaux winemakers. I guess that goes back to our old world versus new

261
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,692
world. And I think for the old world, if you're going to talk about a

262
00:16:08,716 --> 00:16:12,484
geography, you know, I guess you can define it as a style

263
00:16:12,532 --> 00:16:16,324
too. It's sort of that musty old style. But I think you really want to

264
00:16:16,332 --> 00:16:19,620
just look at it as, as location in some cases. In those

265
00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:23,092
cases, like Margaux or Pesic Leon

266
00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:26,772
or San, they're bound by the

267
00:16:26,796 --> 00:16:30,600
rules of the Appalachian. And I think that's part of the definition

268
00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:34,772
of old world Argentina. No rules. No rules. You want to grow, you know,

269
00:16:34,796 --> 00:16:38,516
Torontes and Salta, go ahead. Right. If you want to grow Pinot Noir in Patagonia,

270
00:16:38,548 --> 00:16:42,142
you know, that's what you get to do. But you're bound in

271
00:16:42,166 --> 00:16:45,450
those parts of the world. What would be considered old world?

272
00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:49,230
Does the director of winemaking have this sort of

273
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:51,450
freedom here that he gets to do?

274
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:55,290
I would say he's a lot more Freedom here.

275
00:16:56,630 --> 00:17:00,462
We. Especially when we're blending for our premier wine, Rubicon,

276
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we're tasting everything blind, and we've got all the Bordeaux

277
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varieties in there, and we're not making

278
00:17:07,554 --> 00:17:11,178
decisions based off variety. We're making decisions based off

279
00:17:11,234 --> 00:17:14,778
what is the best wines of that vintage that will make blend.

280
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So you all get together Blind Taste 5,

281
00:17:18,834 --> 00:17:22,682
the five border varietals, all the. Different parcels off

282
00:17:22,706 --> 00:17:26,442
the property. So we don't have Malbec on. On site here, but we

283
00:17:26,466 --> 00:17:30,202
have the other four, and that's not good for him.

284
00:17:30,226 --> 00:17:33,230
He's a Malbec. I know it's very offensive.

285
00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:40,412
But it's. It's always about figuring out what's the best expression of that vintage.

286
00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:44,236
Yes. You know, let me test your.

287
00:17:44,308 --> 00:17:47,164
Your brain a little bit, because I brought this up the other day with a

288
00:17:47,172 --> 00:17:50,732
French winemaker, and I said, you know, there's really no bad vintages, because

289
00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:54,236
by our definition, if. If it. A wine expresses

290
00:17:54,428 --> 00:17:58,204
that time in that place, then it's accurate. As long as, you

291
00:17:58,212 --> 00:18:00,972
know, you did the best you could to blend it and come out with the

292
00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:04,692
best result, then, yeah, some

293
00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:08,340
wines may taste better than others to certain people, but by

294
00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:12,052
definition, there's no bad vintage if it's properly made. I'm glad that

295
00:18:12,076 --> 00:18:15,908
we're recording this, because this is the best explanation I

296
00:18:15,964 --> 00:18:19,700
have heard from, you know, being criticized

297
00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:23,012
that every vintage is the best. Yeah, right. You know, when critics say, oh, you

298
00:18:23,036 --> 00:18:26,708
always say the same, but actually, what you just said is really good.

299
00:18:26,764 --> 00:18:30,592
This is Jeff. Because we try to make the best of what we

300
00:18:30,616 --> 00:18:34,304
have for the vintage, and that is kind of a justification

301
00:18:34,352 --> 00:18:38,000
to say yes. I think that's what we're doing. Yeah. And who's to say that,

302
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,872
you know, like the 89, for instance, here in Napa was

303
00:18:41,896 --> 00:18:45,456
a harsh, tough vintage, and many of them didn't even Release.

304
00:18:45,608 --> 00:18:49,168
And the 90 was such a luscious vintage, and they released

305
00:18:49,184 --> 00:18:52,960
them, I made a fortune, quote, unquote. I don't say

306
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,832
fortune on the 89s, because they came around eventually. Oh, yeah. And

307
00:18:56,856 --> 00:19:00,000
they were great. And of course, you can't release the 89 after the 90s already

308
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,724
on the shelf, or even the 91. So, you know, there's all this 89 in

309
00:19:03,812 --> 00:19:07,580
bottle that had done a great job of softening, and there were some

310
00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:11,084
really good wines that came out of that. So. And again, it kind of flies

311
00:19:11,132 --> 00:19:14,892
in the face of a bad vintage versus a good vintage, but really, I

312
00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:18,700
think defined by if you're making an honest glass of wine, that's my

313
00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:22,172
latest term meaning not played with. No,

314
00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:25,880
no, I agree with that. It's very

315
00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:30,908
tricky to say, I'm not going to make my best wine

316
00:19:31,004 --> 00:19:34,300
this year. Yeah, right. That's a good point. And the other thing is

317
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:37,760
that when confronted to that situation,

318
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:41,868
how many are we deciding? How much our

319
00:19:41,924 --> 00:19:45,612
blend? Seven of us. Seven of us, more or less. Yeah. And

320
00:19:45,636 --> 00:19:49,068
when you think that, let's hypothetically, we might have, I don't know,

321
00:19:49,124 --> 00:19:52,780
5,000 consumers of Rubicon. So seven people are

322
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:56,538
deciding that they will not have our wine. Wow.

323
00:19:56,714 --> 00:19:58,230
A little bit too much.

324
00:20:00,370 --> 00:20:04,170
So why don't we do our best job and

325
00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:07,670
then decide them to, I don't know, to judge it.

326
00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:10,470
So you have how many different

327
00:20:11,490 --> 00:20:15,194
varieties are you bottling? Yeah, Varietals

328
00:20:15,242 --> 00:20:18,922
on site? There's 13. And so this Inglenook has

329
00:20:18,946 --> 00:20:22,602
13 different labels on the shelf? No, we

330
00:20:22,626 --> 00:20:26,420
have five different wines that make. So we have two

331
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:30,132
Cabernet Sauvignon driven wines. We have Rubicon, which is our premier wine, and then also

332
00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:33,972
a Cabernet Sauvignon. And then we have our

333
00:20:33,996 --> 00:20:36,360
other red is RC Syrah

334
00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:41,732
for Mr. Coppola's son, Roman. Okay. And

335
00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:45,172
then we have two whites. We have a Sauvignon Blanc, which we also add some

336
00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:48,820
Semillon into. And then we have a RN white

337
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,058
blend of Marsan, Rousson and Viognier. Wow, that's quite a

338
00:20:52,114 --> 00:20:55,946
diversity in varietals. It is, yeah.

339
00:20:55,978 --> 00:20:59,658
Yeah. That's pretty interesting. And I mean, my wife won't drink

340
00:20:59,674 --> 00:21:03,418
Syrah as much as I've tried to trick her into drinking something

341
00:21:03,474 --> 00:21:07,322
that was made from Syrah that hopefully she wouldn't notice. But

342
00:21:07,346 --> 00:21:11,098
she 90% of the time catches me. She's a Bordeaux woman.

343
00:21:11,154 --> 00:21:14,698
That's all she likes to drink. And Pinot. She likes Pinot. But how are those

344
00:21:14,754 --> 00:21:18,362
received by the public? The Syrahs and the Rousseau Marsan, I mean, those are

345
00:21:18,386 --> 00:21:22,124
unusual. Is it club member type thing or is

346
00:21:22,132 --> 00:21:25,980
it broad market? The Syrah now is wine club

347
00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:29,852
only. Just because productions dropped over the past few years, we've had to do some

348
00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:33,548
vineyard replants. But the Marsan Rousseau vignette,

349
00:21:33,564 --> 00:21:37,356
we do the majority direct to consumer, and then a chunk

350
00:21:37,388 --> 00:21:40,732
of it is able to go out through distribution in the US And a little

351
00:21:40,756 --> 00:21:43,916
bit throughout the world. I have to tell you, when I took over my dad's

352
00:21:43,948 --> 00:21:47,152
company, I actually bought it from him. He'll tell you that I bought it for

353
00:21:47,176 --> 00:21:49,260
a dollar. It's not true. I have the contract.

354
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,900
So he passed away a couple years ago. But

355
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,300
I found the contract. That's why I said that

356
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,872
I was going through the handoff documents that he gave me, which was the P

357
00:22:01,896 --> 00:22:05,580
and L from the company at the time. And we had about Maybe we had

358
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,020
900 members or a thousand members, something like that.

359
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,770
And the competition, which

360
00:22:13,810 --> 00:22:17,578
there was no third party competition. One of the month Club was the only sort

361
00:22:17,594 --> 00:22:21,210
of independent company featuring wines. All the rest, there were

362
00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:25,030
five were winery and England Oak was one of them.

363
00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:26,990
It was like Martini.

364
00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:33,242
I could find the document, but there was five and those. That was the

365
00:22:33,266 --> 00:22:36,874
competition, so to speak, which I never really considered winery based clubs

366
00:22:36,922 --> 00:22:40,714
competition because people join your club because they come here, they experience

367
00:22:40,802 --> 00:22:44,054
the wines and every time they get that package they go, oh, I remember that

368
00:22:44,062 --> 00:22:47,222
day we were, you know, talking to Enrique and

369
00:22:47,326 --> 00:22:51,062
Jonathan. It's very important part of our industry today.

370
00:22:51,166 --> 00:22:54,982
How, how has the DTC side supported what you

371
00:22:55,006 --> 00:22:58,582
guys are doing? It's the backbone to it. It's

372
00:22:58,646 --> 00:23:02,278
really building those relationships with those customers and, and having those

373
00:23:02,334 --> 00:23:06,134
longtime wine club members. We've got a whole section of our

374
00:23:06,142 --> 00:23:09,228
wine club that's been with us for over 20 years. Wow, that's

375
00:23:09,244 --> 00:23:13,020
amazing. My average tenure, which

376
00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:16,908
was really good for an independent club was two, two years. But

377
00:23:16,964 --> 00:23:20,200
when I sold the club in 19 two years ago,

378
00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:24,412
I did find people, you know, that were around from the early 80s that

379
00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:28,012
were still buying. And there's just a, you know, a reliance and a.

380
00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:31,740
Really for you folks, it's a, a trust

381
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:35,660
built between you and what you're producing and what

382
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:39,036
these people can tell the stories. And here's my problem with today's

383
00:23:39,148 --> 00:23:42,972
industry. The Internet is, you know, it's there obviously it

384
00:23:42,996 --> 00:23:46,844
was not going anywhere, but it's created bargain hunters and

385
00:23:46,932 --> 00:23:50,348
Groupon created bargain hunters. It clobbered my business in the beginning because

386
00:23:50,404 --> 00:23:54,040
Groupon, everybody's just looking for a deal. And I think

387
00:23:54,660 --> 00:23:58,268
I'd never been to this location, driving up the driveway. The whole experience

388
00:23:58,404 --> 00:24:02,022
is the experience. And I think that's critical

389
00:24:02,086 --> 00:24:05,862
to today's industry. Not just Inglenook, but for

390
00:24:05,886 --> 00:24:09,670
us to grow as an industry is to develop these experiences.

391
00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:13,334
Yeah, yeah. You create loyalty by offering

392
00:24:13,382 --> 00:24:16,850
things or by. Yeah, by

393
00:24:17,230 --> 00:24:20,854
having things that consumer can find

394
00:24:20,942 --> 00:24:23,610
that they will feel linked

395
00:24:24,750 --> 00:24:27,632
to the place, to the, through the

396
00:24:27,656 --> 00:24:31,328
experiences. For me, you were

397
00:24:31,384 --> 00:24:35,060
saying something before about the history and how it's not in the bottle.

398
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,200
We say here that, well, depending on the vintage, but

399
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,040
sometimes a good percentage of the wine is

400
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,432
outside the bottle. That's right. With the attached

401
00:24:46,496 --> 00:24:50,048
history, whatever happened in that vintage with

402
00:24:50,104 --> 00:24:53,520
the Heritage, as defined as previously we

403
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,242
said that we have here. So is part of

404
00:24:57,266 --> 00:25:00,922
that outside part of the wine is that experience that you

405
00:25:00,946 --> 00:25:04,570
have when you come here and there is like a

406
00:25:04,610 --> 00:25:08,442
loop of people that. Let's say we start with

407
00:25:08,466 --> 00:25:12,218
a member here that goes out and talk

408
00:25:12,274 --> 00:25:15,962
about us, and then somebody else go to the market,

409
00:25:16,066 --> 00:25:19,642
buys the wine, and then he wants to visit here and becomes also a

410
00:25:19,666 --> 00:25:22,640
member. So there is a. I would say,

411
00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:27,156
retrofitting of. You're exactly right. Yeah, yeah.

412
00:25:27,268 --> 00:25:30,724
Which is really useful and

413
00:25:30,812 --> 00:25:34,068
healthy. You put on events for the club members,

414
00:25:34,124 --> 00:25:37,892
obviously. Absolutely. They come and experience the same

415
00:25:37,916 --> 00:25:41,668
people come every time. Or do you have, like. There's honestly a chunk

416
00:25:41,684 --> 00:25:45,348
of people who come every single time or to a majority of events. And

417
00:25:45,404 --> 00:25:48,948
then there's lots of other club members that come when they're in town or it's

418
00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:52,532
always fun to meet new wine club members that signed up and then that's their

419
00:25:52,556 --> 00:25:56,256
first event. And trying to build those relationships and

420
00:25:56,328 --> 00:25:59,984
really try to secure them. As an advocate for the winery

421
00:26:00,032 --> 00:26:03,680
for. The future, I think it's a critical

422
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,552
part of where wine is in the world today. We know that

423
00:26:07,576 --> 00:26:11,232
consumption is down. We know that the Gen Zs are being bombarded with

424
00:26:11,256 --> 00:26:14,900
flavored drinks and White Claw, which. I don't know how you drink that stuff.

425
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,328
And non alk is becoming a thing. I don't think it's

426
00:26:19,344 --> 00:26:23,024
a real thing necessarily, but I went to the fancy food show in

427
00:26:23,032 --> 00:26:26,364
Vegas a couple years ago. We used to go every year in San Francisco.

428
00:26:26,492 --> 00:26:30,160
And the preeminent theme

429
00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,760
of beverage that year was non alk

430
00:26:34,580 --> 00:26:38,044
and non alk Prosecco, non alk champagne, non alk

431
00:26:38,092 --> 00:26:41,820
whatever. And then non alk distilled spirits. And I thought, oh, my God, this is

432
00:26:41,860 --> 00:26:45,308
horrible. It was undrinkable. I mean, how do you drink it? Why do you drink

433
00:26:45,324 --> 00:26:49,036
it right when you can have an ice glass of wine? But

434
00:26:49,108 --> 00:26:52,732
we're against those pressures. There's a lot of pressure on the marketplace right

435
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:56,512
now to that. And I think, and

436
00:26:56,536 --> 00:27:00,240
I say this all the time, is probably to the consumers. I say it

437
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,792
not too much, but, you know, the story can't be when I'm at

438
00:27:03,816 --> 00:27:07,140
dinner. I got this for five bucks on the Internet.

439
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,152
Is that a story? No, But I went to Engle Nook and I

440
00:27:11,176 --> 00:27:14,752
sat and I sat with Ryan and Enrique, I mean, Jonathan, Enrique,

441
00:27:14,896 --> 00:27:18,576
and they told me the stories of Francis Ford

442
00:27:18,608 --> 00:27:22,224
Coppola. And we walked the vineyard and we looked inside the barrel room and

443
00:27:22,312 --> 00:27:25,790
we did all those things. And it's kind of an escape.

444
00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:30,122
Every Time you get that package, you open up the box, you see the label

445
00:27:30,186 --> 00:27:33,850
and you kind of drift away. You connect again with

446
00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:37,610
that experience. Yeah, absolutely. And sorry for going

447
00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:41,050
back down. No, please do the conversation. But I don't know,

448
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:44,778
Jonathan, if it happens to you talking about the loyalty of

449
00:27:44,834 --> 00:27:48,458
some of the wine club members that they start talking to you about

450
00:27:48,514 --> 00:27:52,338
people that you never. So in the winery. Because they were.

451
00:27:52,474 --> 00:27:54,950
They have more seniority than ourselves. Yes.

452
00:27:56,970 --> 00:28:00,674
That's interesting. So people that aren't here anymore, that. Yeah.

453
00:28:00,722 --> 00:28:04,258
So we're learning from them. Yeah. Oh, I remember when he was this.

454
00:28:04,394 --> 00:28:08,066
Oh, never heard about that. So Gustav Niebaum,

455
00:28:08,258 --> 00:28:12,034
right. Was he the founder. He founded in 1879. He was a Finnish

456
00:28:12,082 --> 00:28:15,874
sea captain. Really? Yep. You know, that's interesting to me

457
00:28:15,882 --> 00:28:18,740
about Napa's history. So much

458
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,792
immigration, almost all immigration right at that point. Now we have

459
00:28:22,816 --> 00:28:26,020
Argentina, but we had Finnish, we had Swiss, we had.

460
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,632
The Christian Brothers were already here. But I mean, that's a pretty interesting part of

461
00:28:30,656 --> 00:28:33,580
this, the history of the valley. Oh, absolutely.

462
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,152
He made his money selling furs

463
00:28:38,216 --> 00:28:41,880
from Alaska and then he made probably about

464
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,544
$10 million at the time. So today that's ungodly sum of

465
00:28:45,552 --> 00:28:49,032
money. Yeah. And really could have bought any chateau in the

466
00:28:49,056 --> 00:28:52,904
world and decided to start one here because he thought it

467
00:28:52,912 --> 00:28:56,380
was the best terroir that he could find. As a Finnish

468
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,680
fur trader. Fur trader, yeah. He had loved wine. Was.

469
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,408
It was. Had to be one of the first. We were,

470
00:29:04,464 --> 00:29:07,260
I think, the fourth oldest winery in the valley. Yeah.

471
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,380
I find that interesting and fascinating that the immigration,

472
00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:16,106
particularly in today's political environment that how important

473
00:29:16,258 --> 00:29:20,074
immigrants to America and just founding our industry alone,

474
00:29:20,122 --> 00:29:22,830
let alone many other industries. My father was an immigrant

475
00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:27,034
to facilitate the wine. I

476
00:29:27,042 --> 00:29:29,110
mean, it's incredible. Really.

477
00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:35,914
I would like that. That's why I do this is to tell those kinds of

478
00:29:35,922 --> 00:29:39,230
stories, to figure out that there's so much impact. And

479
00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:42,958
California is a special case of immigration because

480
00:29:43,014 --> 00:29:46,370
even many Americans are immigrant into California.

481
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:50,974
I mean, really. My dad was from Cairo and, you

482
00:29:50,982 --> 00:29:54,750
know, started, you know, created the direct consumer wine business in

483
00:29:54,790 --> 00:29:58,302
America. It was. He was the first and still own the. I don't own that.

484
00:29:58,326 --> 00:30:01,086
I sold the name, actually. But the Wine of the Month Club was a trademark

485
00:30:01,198 --> 00:30:04,868
name of ours. And you know, the funny thing is we.

486
00:30:04,974 --> 00:30:08,680
The premise of it in 1972 that I carried through all

487
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,100
my career and I kind of sold it for two reasons. One was,

488
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,020
you know, the industry is getting very tough. I'd done it for 35 years. And,

489
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,152
you know, we had other things to do at this point. And the economies of

490
00:30:20,176 --> 00:30:23,976
scale are growing down because it took a social networker, a digital

491
00:30:24,048 --> 00:30:27,480
designer on staff, videographer. All that became

492
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,192
overhead. But more importantly was I

493
00:30:31,216 --> 00:30:35,032
wasn't finding the stuff that we used to find. There weren't the

494
00:30:35,056 --> 00:30:38,728
overstocks of interesting wines. Let's just face it. I

495
00:30:38,784 --> 00:30:42,440
faced the 10 year old charbono, which is incredible in the bottle at the time.

496
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,104
But you know, I would find those kinds of wines at the price I could

497
00:30:46,112 --> 00:30:49,544
afford to show customers. And those weren't happening. We were getting,

498
00:30:49,712 --> 00:30:53,544
you know, 50 cent a liter white from Spain,

499
00:30:53,592 --> 00:30:57,272
in the middle of Spain from Valencia, that was shipped over here

500
00:30:57,296 --> 00:31:01,012
in 20,000, literally vinyl bladders, you know, and that's what

501
00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:04,580
we were getting for the same price. And I didn't want to show

502
00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:08,100
that. I didn't want to show wines like that. That wasn't why I had started

503
00:31:08,140 --> 00:31:11,780
this and fell in love with the industry. Did you, did

504
00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:13,960
you fall in love with winemaking

505
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:20,036
when you started or did it take a little bit of time to

506
00:31:20,188 --> 00:31:23,812
realize this is really it? Actually I come

507
00:31:23,836 --> 00:31:27,368
from a complete non winemaking background. I grew up outside of Boston

508
00:31:27,444 --> 00:31:30,700
and not really known for the wines out there. Yeah, right.

509
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,688
But my grandfather was an old world Italian and made

510
00:31:34,744 --> 00:31:38,340
wine in the basement. So I grew up helping him make wine.

511
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,176
And then he passed away right before I was about to graduate

512
00:31:42,208 --> 00:31:45,952
college and decided to keep the family tradition going. And

513
00:31:45,976 --> 00:31:49,712
I fell in love with it and really wasn't as enthused with my

514
00:31:49,736 --> 00:31:53,290
day job at that time. Yeah, that's what happens.

515
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,822
Was it corporate America? It was, it was. I was working in tech at the

516
00:31:56,846 --> 00:32:00,422
time. I was a entry level programmer. And so I moved out to

517
00:32:00,446 --> 00:32:03,990
California about 20 years ago now, worked my first

518
00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:07,766
harvest and haven't looked back. And that was it. Yeah. And

519
00:32:07,838 --> 00:32:11,558
you, you want to have a brand one day? I do not, you know. No.

520
00:32:11,614 --> 00:32:14,742
You don't have to market it, sell it. You like these out of it. I

521
00:32:14,766 --> 00:32:18,214
love to make wine and talk about wine. I just don't want to

522
00:32:18,222 --> 00:32:21,884
be having to hold up to the sales part of

523
00:32:21,892 --> 00:32:25,068
it. Yes. I think that's what happens when people,

524
00:32:25,124 --> 00:32:28,956
particularly you make your money as a surgeon or you're a government

525
00:32:29,028 --> 00:32:32,348
contractor building freeways and you go, I'm going to go to Napa Valley and I'm

526
00:32:32,364 --> 00:32:35,852
going to buy a Chateau and I'm going to have this wonderful lifestyle that I

527
00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:39,640
see. And then I think eventually they get tired of losing money

528
00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:43,820
and it's like, oh, we got to figure this out because it's a whole different

529
00:32:43,860 --> 00:32:47,348
part of the business. I think the complication of it is

530
00:32:47,404 --> 00:32:51,044
what confuses most people before they get. Into it,

531
00:32:51,132 --> 00:32:54,516
is the unseen part of it. Yes. Oh, yeah. The distributor side.

532
00:32:54,588 --> 00:32:58,372
And I don't know. Working in a vineyard is. Oh, it's so

533
00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:02,164
romantic. And then when you have to spend hours there in the cold or heat.

534
00:33:02,292 --> 00:33:05,988
Yeah. This part I didn't know about. Or hours

535
00:33:06,044 --> 00:33:09,844
at the sorting table during harvest. And I kill everything that I

536
00:33:09,852 --> 00:33:13,370
put in the ground, so I would be a lousy wine guy.

537
00:33:13,790 --> 00:33:17,542
But I loved marketing it and. But I liked it because

538
00:33:17,566 --> 00:33:21,094
I like telling the stories and telling people these stories. Having.

539
00:33:21,262 --> 00:33:24,886
I'll go back and I'll tell the story of our conversation. And

540
00:33:24,958 --> 00:33:28,770
this is an interesting part of it. Maybe you can shed some light on it.

541
00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:32,210
As intimidating as the subject can be for some people,

542
00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:36,198
and this is a whole social. I'm gonna. I'm gonna dumb

543
00:33:36,214 --> 00:33:39,958
down wine and make it approachable. I think that's impossible because it's

544
00:33:39,974 --> 00:33:43,686
complicated and it's interesting, and the more you want to learn, the more you can.

545
00:33:43,758 --> 00:33:47,462
Right. But the conversation at dinner time always ends up

546
00:33:47,486 --> 00:33:51,222
on the wine. Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah.

547
00:33:51,366 --> 00:33:55,062
And that's not intimidating. People want to hear

548
00:33:55,086 --> 00:33:58,822
it. Yeah. And talking about intimidation

549
00:33:58,886 --> 00:34:02,726
and wine, I think that sometimes there is a mistake in making

550
00:34:02,798 --> 00:34:06,324
it too kind of an expertise, this field

551
00:34:06,412 --> 00:34:10,260
of conversation. When

552
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:13,844
I hear people, you know, at the dinner table saying,

553
00:34:13,932 --> 00:34:16,800
well, I don't know too much about wine, so I.

554
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:21,316
You don't need to know. You don't. You need to enjoy and

555
00:34:21,388 --> 00:34:25,092
see. And your personal preference is the main driver of

556
00:34:25,116 --> 00:34:28,740
your opinion. It's fine as long as you are honest and not try to like

557
00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:32,292
something that you don't like. And if you like a wine of $5 a

558
00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:35,782
bottle, that's great. You're lucky. Yeah.

559
00:34:35,846 --> 00:34:39,590
Yeah. You're lucky because you found something for

560
00:34:39,630 --> 00:34:43,478
$5. You know, it's funny. I think

561
00:34:43,534 --> 00:34:46,662
everybody, Even though there's people like, it's too

562
00:34:46,686 --> 00:34:50,422
subjective. And it is. I can like something, and

563
00:34:50,446 --> 00:34:54,246
you. You may not. However, I think almost

564
00:34:54,318 --> 00:34:58,006
everybody agrees when a proper glass of wine, an honest glass of wine,

565
00:34:58,038 --> 00:35:01,062
when a Rubicon is set. Set in front of you, that there's a

566
00:35:01,086 --> 00:35:03,960
recognition of its value.

567
00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:07,916
Definitely. Everybody can appreciate it because it's. Because

568
00:35:07,988 --> 00:35:11,452
why? Because it's expressing. It's expressing its sense of

569
00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:15,212
place. And there's not many areas of the

570
00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:18,812
world that can provide that and really show that incredible

571
00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:22,220
sense of place. And especially here in

572
00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:26,060
Napa, we've got people who are doing so many different styles

573
00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:29,340
of wine where you could have vineyards like

574
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:33,180
Tocquelon down the street and all the different winemakers of it, and you put

575
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:36,088
10 of those side by side by side, and you could think they're completely different

576
00:35:36,144 --> 00:35:39,752
vintages and vineyards just because of how

577
00:35:39,776 --> 00:35:42,300
differently they're made. That's really interesting.

578
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,368
And people will. They. You know, it's funny because I have friends

579
00:35:47,424 --> 00:35:51,000
that recognize. They go, yes. You know, same

580
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,280
winemaker, two different vineyards, same vintage, same

581
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,008
grape. They go, they're different. Yes.

582
00:35:58,104 --> 00:36:01,340
Yeah. And let me introduce something. I was thinking of Jonathan

583
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,520
yesterday, thinking of the concept. This

584
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,392
may sound a little bit weird, but we

585
00:36:10,416 --> 00:36:14,008
don't make wine here. We don't make wine. That does sound

586
00:36:14,024 --> 00:36:17,752
weird. The wine comes in

587
00:36:17,776 --> 00:36:20,340
some way from the side.

588
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,352
And I will equate you to Michelangelo in

589
00:36:25,376 --> 00:36:28,370
the sense that you remember that they said that

590
00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:32,066
Michelangelo saw the sculpture behind

591
00:36:32,138 --> 00:36:35,778
the marble block, and the only thing that he had to do was

592
00:36:35,834 --> 00:36:39,362
to kind of peel it, bring it out. Well, I wouldn't like to be in

593
00:36:39,386 --> 00:36:42,738
his shoes, in Jonathan's shoes, because it's your

594
00:36:42,794 --> 00:36:45,990
ability to peel off what you need to peel

595
00:36:46,330 --> 00:36:49,970
or to reveal the wine by trying to. Not to mess

596
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:53,450
anything up. So. And that is more

597
00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:56,858
difficult than making something, because when you

598
00:36:56,914 --> 00:37:00,710
make, you have a goal. You kind of build something

599
00:37:01,490 --> 00:37:05,290
and, you know, and you have the recipe for that. And this is not

600
00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:08,954
the recipe thing. This is revealing something that is hidden

601
00:37:09,002 --> 00:37:12,410
there. And you have to have an ability that is much more

602
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:15,722
difficult, that is to see what is behind there,

603
00:37:15,906 --> 00:37:19,318
to kind of remove what you have to remove to make it.

604
00:37:19,474 --> 00:37:23,182
That's sort of separating the art from the science, isn't it? Like,

605
00:37:23,206 --> 00:37:26,414
you can have all the metrics, the bricks, and the phenolic ripeness and all the

606
00:37:26,422 --> 00:37:30,158
things that go into the ph, but that's not really what you're

607
00:37:30,174 --> 00:37:33,694
talking about. No. There's so much art in our craft, especially in the

608
00:37:33,702 --> 00:37:36,930
vineyards as well. I mean, yes, we have all the science,

609
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:40,974
but you're trying to make predictions

610
00:37:41,022 --> 00:37:44,718
on what the weather's going to be like a few months down the line. None

611
00:37:44,734 --> 00:37:48,462
of us know what's going to happen. You're rolling the

612
00:37:48,486 --> 00:37:52,294
dice every single year and hoping you make the best decisions

613
00:37:52,342 --> 00:37:55,878
possible. But I think what Enrique is saying is that at some

614
00:37:55,934 --> 00:37:59,670
point, when you get to harvest, your ability to

615
00:37:59,710 --> 00:38:03,494
taste the grape, understand the vintage prior, understand, you

616
00:38:03,502 --> 00:38:07,222
know, the whole process from Bud break to now, and say, okay, this

617
00:38:07,246 --> 00:38:10,838
is what we're going to craft from this. This is what it's giving me

618
00:38:10,974 --> 00:38:14,742
and not screwing that up. The giving. Yeah. You are

619
00:38:14,766 --> 00:38:18,262
getting something to feel it. And that is more difficult than

620
00:38:18,286 --> 00:38:21,954
making. It's like those conversations they have. They got. The tap

621
00:38:22,002 --> 00:38:25,634
roots are going down. We're down 30 meters, and we're getting this nutrient. We're in

622
00:38:25,642 --> 00:38:28,470
this kind of soil. And it doesn't explain

623
00:38:28,970 --> 00:38:32,674
why grapes grab

624
00:38:32,722 --> 00:38:36,530
all that information and create a beverage. That explains that

625
00:38:36,570 --> 00:38:39,618
information. Absolutely. It just explains it how.

626
00:38:39,754 --> 00:38:43,346
Right. How it's doing. Well, we have tap roots, and we have the little micro

627
00:38:43,378 --> 00:38:46,082
exchanges of things going on, nutrients, and they had to go down and get the

628
00:38:46,106 --> 00:38:49,898
water. But whatever it does, it asks me why. And I. And I have.

629
00:38:49,954 --> 00:38:53,786
No one can articulate why grapes do that, why

630
00:38:53,858 --> 00:38:57,674
wine expresses something. It doesn't happen. With pineapples, you go to Maui and

631
00:38:57,682 --> 00:39:01,386
get Maui Blanc. It's not as interesting, right? It's just pineapple

632
00:39:01,418 --> 00:39:05,258
juice. Why? Why? No, it's

633
00:39:05,274 --> 00:39:09,082
true. It's true. It's. And probably

634
00:39:09,146 --> 00:39:12,970
there is no need to know why, but. That's right. But

635
00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:16,810
to acknowledge that there is a. Probably a very

636
00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:20,458
complex process through that will give you something that

637
00:39:20,514 --> 00:39:24,122
is. Could be unique to your place. And the

638
00:39:24,146 --> 00:39:27,962
only thing which is not a minor thing you have to

639
00:39:27,986 --> 00:39:31,466
do is to try to bring it

640
00:39:31,618 --> 00:39:35,322
out. That's really interesting part of the

641
00:39:35,346 --> 00:39:38,150
conversation. We don't care why.

642
00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:42,590
We just know it does. And our job, and your job, not

643
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:46,410
mine, your job is to visualize this. Just like

644
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:50,450
visualizing David behind the block of stone

645
00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:54,686
before it gets done and understanding that you got there when you finished

646
00:39:54,718 --> 00:39:57,530
it and getting out of the way.

647
00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:02,142
That's why these acidulated wine, sugared wine, all those things kind

648
00:40:02,166 --> 00:40:05,870
of doctor things up. And you never really

649
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:09,582
get there because you've played with it. That's highlighted by this

650
00:40:09,606 --> 00:40:13,342
one conversation I had with a local friend of mine who has a winery. He

651
00:40:13,366 --> 00:40:16,558
has a small vineyard, and he made his first vintage out of it. And it's

652
00:40:16,574 --> 00:40:20,250
not even appalated. It's just this part of Southern California. And,

653
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:24,318
you know, it was palatable. But he took it to a custom

654
00:40:24,374 --> 00:40:28,110
crush. And I talked to the winemaker, and I said, well, you know, the

655
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:31,582
acid was high and whatever, you know, as you'd expect, he goes, oh, we can

656
00:40:31,606 --> 00:40:35,192
fix all that. And that's, you know,

657
00:40:35,296 --> 00:40:38,952
I don't want you to fix it. I want you to have it understood, you

658
00:40:38,976 --> 00:40:42,520
know, in the bottle. Not. Not fix it, because that's just playing with

659
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,408
it. And that's the part of wine that I think. But we need these things,

660
00:40:46,464 --> 00:40:50,180
right? We need Josh, we need apothec red.

661
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,260
We need the wines on the supermarket shelf to bring

662
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,200
consumers to the table. That otherwise may not

663
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,820
right something for everybody out there. Yeah,

664
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,660
yeah. And it's true that there is a.

665
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,740
I think that there are only not that many

666
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,096
products that have such a

667
00:41:14,168 --> 00:41:17,744
huge range of prices. And you can go from a

668
00:41:17,752 --> 00:41:21,168
bottle that is probably like we said, $5 something

669
00:41:21,304 --> 00:41:24,420
thousand dollars and everybody finds

670
00:41:25,060 --> 00:41:28,520
the reason why to pay what they pay for different

671
00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:32,044
levels of wine and is so diverse

672
00:41:32,092 --> 00:41:35,772
and complex. There's some very honest

673
00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:39,676
wines at all price ranges. The other night I opened a bottle

674
00:41:39,708 --> 00:41:43,436
of Cheval Blanc for my wife because it was her birthday. And my son

675
00:41:43,468 --> 00:41:46,060
in law says this is really good. I said yeah. He goes, is it really

676
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:49,884
worth. Let's say it's a thousand dollars a bottle. He said, were they worth

677
00:41:50,012 --> 00:41:53,780
200 more? You know, 200 times, 20 times a 50 bottle of wine?

678
00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:57,236
I said that's hard to acknowledge from a character

679
00:41:57,268 --> 00:42:00,360
standpoint. But you just had Cheval Blanc.

680
00:42:01,420 --> 00:42:04,880
So regardless, you know, it's got the mystique around it.

681
00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:09,440
I think we, we are in a position

682
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:12,800
to break out of this

683
00:42:14,860 --> 00:42:18,680
doldrums of wine that we're in this pit sort of.

684
00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:23,100
It just ebbs and flows. But I think what Engelnook is

685
00:42:23,140 --> 00:42:26,764
doing is moving the needle to the direction that

686
00:42:26,852 --> 00:42:30,460
in general we want the industry to go. We want it to be expressive. We

687
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:34,044
want to tell people about how a good glass of wine feels and what it

688
00:42:34,052 --> 00:42:36,160
does for you. Do you guys chase

689
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:41,868
medals and honors and scores? We don't. Our

690
00:42:41,924 --> 00:42:45,720
goal is to always just make the best expression of the site.

691
00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:49,704
If we happen to get good scores, that's a bummer bonus.

692
00:42:49,832 --> 00:42:53,432
But they're sent to the various places suckling and enthusiasts and all

693
00:42:53,456 --> 00:42:57,048
that. Yeah, they are judged by. Do you think those are

694
00:42:57,184 --> 00:43:00,776
pertinent these days? Do you think they're relied

695
00:43:00,808 --> 00:43:03,976
upon like they used to be when Parker started kind of thing? I don't think

696
00:43:04,048 --> 00:43:07,832
so. I don't think they're as important as they were 20ish years

697
00:43:07,856 --> 00:43:11,020
ago. What's your sense?

698
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,980
And the other thing is that

699
00:43:17,350 --> 00:43:20,490
it depends. I don't want to make a very

700
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:24,622
general statement, but let's say that I become a

701
00:43:24,646 --> 00:43:27,850
critic of wine and then

702
00:43:28,310 --> 00:43:31,930
there will be wines that I enjoy more than others.

703
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:35,930
And then am I a guidance for

704
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:39,450
anybody? Just because I'm kind of

705
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:43,270
placing my values on different type of wine.

706
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:47,254
And I would be sad if a consumer

707
00:43:47,302 --> 00:43:50,982
goes and say okay, oh, let's see which one Enrique like the most? Because that

708
00:43:51,006 --> 00:43:54,486
is. Well, that is My taste? Yeah, you know, right,

709
00:43:54,638 --> 00:43:58,486
that's a good point. Why don't you experiment by yourself? That's a really good point.

710
00:43:58,558 --> 00:44:02,310
Well, that's why we got then this uniformization of taste at some point

711
00:44:02,350 --> 00:44:05,974
that you were talking about in the 90s or 80s, that everybody

712
00:44:06,022 --> 00:44:09,870
pretty much was trying to make the wine to satisfy whoever was

713
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:13,330
a given score so the consumer could buy your wine.

714
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:18,370
So it's true that it's good as a guidance.

715
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:22,718
Like with movies, you sometimes go and see what the critics say and

716
00:44:22,774 --> 00:44:26,302
sometimes you say, okay, but if there is an honest description behind

717
00:44:26,406 --> 00:44:30,110
it and you might say, okay, the guy doesn't like this

718
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:33,870
because it features this characteristic, but

719
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:37,250
I do like those things, for me, that could be useful,

720
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,312
then the value part of the thing is possibly less

721
00:44:41,336 --> 00:44:44,460
useful. You know, that's a good point because that's the other thing.

722
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,140
We're out of time actually. But there's so much to talk about.

723
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,544
There are contemporary thoughts on LinkedIn and

724
00:44:52,632 --> 00:44:56,464
social that say we need to change the language of wine. And I'm thinking

725
00:44:56,512 --> 00:45:00,224
like I go back to my father's days with Michael Broadbent and Harry Waugh and

726
00:45:00,232 --> 00:45:04,022
all these English tasters and they had a specific list of things they used except

727
00:45:04,036 --> 00:45:07,362
explain the value of a glass of wine. And it was just confusing to the

728
00:45:07,386 --> 00:45:11,202
novice to listen to Michael Broadbent, as it is today for

729
00:45:11,226 --> 00:45:14,962
a novice to listen to suckling. Right. If you change the

730
00:45:14,986 --> 00:45:18,242
language and you make it more like Gary Vaynerchuk and you talk about, you know,

731
00:45:18,266 --> 00:45:21,682
Fruit Loops and Captain Crunch, it's just as

732
00:45:21,706 --> 00:45:24,910
confusing for the next person. Like, I don't understand what that means

733
00:45:25,290 --> 00:45:28,802
because I never grew up with those. So I don't. You know, these descriptors that

734
00:45:28,826 --> 00:45:32,562
people use. Changing the language of wine is not going to change anything. It's just

735
00:45:32,586 --> 00:45:36,428
going to make it just as confusing for the next generation to figure out. But,

736
00:45:36,484 --> 00:45:39,920
you know, the point I was going to make was I had a Canary Islands

737
00:45:40,660 --> 00:45:43,884
and I can't remember the varietal now, but it was obscure varietal from the Canary

738
00:45:43,932 --> 00:45:47,660
Islands. It was really incredible, all volcanic, all that stuff. And

739
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:51,356
it had 90 something points. And if I, if I'm

740
00:45:51,388 --> 00:45:55,084
a point shopper and I go buy an Engelna cab

741
00:45:55,212 --> 00:45:58,828
that's got the same 90 something points and I put them next to each other,

742
00:45:58,884 --> 00:46:02,704
they're entirely completely different wines. And so you're just going

743
00:46:02,712 --> 00:46:05,792
to go, I didn't like that so much one way or the other. And so

744
00:46:05,816 --> 00:46:09,312
I'm not sure this point system really Works in that realm. And I think what

745
00:46:09,336 --> 00:46:12,460
you're saying is an important part is which. Well, if you do find

746
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,296
somebody that tastes wine like suckling or one of those guys that you trust,

747
00:46:17,328 --> 00:46:20,960
their judgment because of what you've bought from them is a good

748
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,752
indication. And I always said this in the club. I said, how

749
00:46:24,776 --> 00:46:28,444
do you know when you don't like a wine, it's a

750
00:46:28,452 --> 00:46:31,960
Sonoma cab, that it wasn't. It was just not a good

751
00:46:32,260 --> 00:46:36,092
version of that wine? Or you just don't like that varietal from

752
00:46:36,116 --> 00:46:39,160
that location? How do you know that? And I think that's what these

753
00:46:39,940 --> 00:46:43,692
magazines and raiders do. And to make

754
00:46:43,716 --> 00:46:47,244
things more confusing, first, the definition of quality

755
00:46:47,292 --> 00:46:51,036
is also another concept that is very difficult to grasp,

756
00:46:51,148 --> 00:46:54,170
is what is quality quality?

757
00:46:54,590 --> 00:46:58,214
So what we discuss

758
00:46:58,302 --> 00:47:01,970
internally here is that I think the

759
00:47:02,270 --> 00:47:05,254
best definition has to do with

760
00:47:05,342 --> 00:47:08,966
expectation. So you

761
00:47:09,118 --> 00:47:12,966
say, okay, I'm trying to achieve this characteristic

762
00:47:12,998 --> 00:47:15,730
in a product wine in this case.

763
00:47:16,110 --> 00:47:19,884
And as much as you can achieve

764
00:47:19,932 --> 00:47:23,440
that, you will be closer to your best quality.

765
00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:27,372
And that within that concept, you allow for

766
00:47:27,396 --> 00:47:30,812
people to say, yes, it's good quality. Achieve what,

767
00:47:30,996 --> 00:47:34,764
you know, you were pursuing. But I still don't like it.

768
00:47:34,932 --> 00:47:38,732
So I cannot like a wine that I consider, yeah, is

769
00:47:38,836 --> 00:47:42,332
good quality. Because it got to the point where it was,

770
00:47:42,516 --> 00:47:46,230
you know, they wanted to get. Yes, right. But I still.

771
00:47:46,610 --> 00:47:50,330
Not something that I enjoy perfectly fine. As long as you,

772
00:47:50,370 --> 00:47:54,154
you know, now, you know, like my wife Sira, I

773
00:47:54,162 --> 00:47:56,458
mean, and I stumped her a lot of times. You know, I give her coat,

774
00:47:56,474 --> 00:48:00,234
the Rhone. I gave her stuff from different parts of the world. It's like, I

775
00:48:00,242 --> 00:48:03,226
don't like this. I'm like, oh, my God. How do you figure that out? But

776
00:48:03,298 --> 00:48:06,922
she can still say, it's a good quality syrup. It's quality. I don't like

777
00:48:06,946 --> 00:48:10,282
it. I can't tell you how many times I said, no, you don't understand. This

778
00:48:10,306 --> 00:48:12,710
is fine French Burgundy, you know,

779
00:48:15,620 --> 00:48:19,404
I said, and you liked it two weeks ago. We're out of

780
00:48:19,412 --> 00:48:23,004
time. And I. I hope we can do this again one day. I want to

781
00:48:23,012 --> 00:48:26,668
shoot some B roll stuff, but we have so much more to continue

782
00:48:26,724 --> 00:48:30,268
to talk about. And as this industry evolves, we're going to have

783
00:48:30,324 --> 00:48:34,092
different subjects to touch on. But it's already been 50 minutes, if you can believe

784
00:48:34,116 --> 00:48:37,772
it. Wow. It was a very pleasant conversation.

785
00:48:37,836 --> 00:48:41,500
Yeah. I really appreciate the time and not been here.

786
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,580
Really feel like I'm sitting in a piece of history,

787
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,808
and I think that's the story. And accolades

788
00:48:49,824 --> 00:48:53,100
to both of you guys. For taking on this role because

789
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,152
you're defending. Really, My opinion is you're defending this

790
00:48:57,176 --> 00:49:00,576
industry by sharing these experiences in this place.

791
00:49:00,648 --> 00:49:02,880
So cheers. Cheers. Cheers.