Kevin O'Leary makes wine. Hear him on Wine Talks

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Carson Leno,

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in

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southern California having a great conversation with the great

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Mister Kevin O'Leary. We'll get to the introductions in just a moment. Wine talks,

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of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever

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you hang out for your podcast. And always sponsored by the original wine of the

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month club, now sporting the Napa and Bordeaux series of wines.

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But that's not why we're here today. We have the honor and

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privilege and the humility to have a great

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guest, Mister Kevin O'Leary, you commonly known him as from the shark

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tanks, but he has a tremendous amount of experience in many other

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industries and businesses. And so welcome to the show, Kevin. Really appreciate being

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on. Great to be here. Thank you very much. I see you're sitting in

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a barrel room because we're going to talk about

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wine. You're wearing your taste vin, which is an extraordinary

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device, which I don't think I told you on this little agenda here, that I

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have a small collection of taste vin that over the years

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my father collected. They're beautiful things. I mean, you think

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about the rich history of what the testaven is and all

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of the poetry around it, and the thief that samples the wine

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out of the barrel and all of the. The artistic aspects of

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winemaking, as opposed to the scientific.

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But you need both of them today if you want to make money in the

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wine business. You know, it's interesting you said that. And so you're gonna

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immediately go off script, because I didn't even have this written down. But this is

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an important thing. I was talking to Peter Mondavi from

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Krug, and I was telling him about one that the

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first american president ever to pour in american one was Eisenhower at a lunch

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with Queen Elizabeth. But

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he was telling me that he just got 100 points from a

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49 or 45 or 46. I can't remember. Krug

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special select. And I started thinking, you know, those that had to

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be pre the labs, pre all the

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phenolic ripeness, pre all the acid testing, or at least

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much less of it. And here we have this ethereal value in a bottle of

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wine that just came out of the chutes that this guy created

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long before the technology and the scientific part of it.

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Doesn't that bode well for the wines of, for instance, Burgundy and Bordeaux

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that are classic over the years from non technology?

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It does. However, in modern day winemaking, particularly

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new world wines, they're not made to last.

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They're sort of. If you think about the classic American Cabernet Sauvignon,

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I'd say that 50, 60% of them made can't get

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past five years before they start to really roll over. And Chardonnay.

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So I give them 36 months. The economics of the wine

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business are nothing less than brutal. And

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I think, getting right at it, as I'm known as an investor,

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the old adage, how do you become a millionaire in the wine business? Well, you

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start as a billionaire. That's true. And so what

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matters is to start with the realization, in North

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America, 97% of wine is

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sold for under $14.99 a bottle.

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97%. Wow. That means there's only 3%

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of wines that are sold to premium. And so if you can't

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master the ability to have logistics and be able to

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ship a minimum of 150,000 cases, which is the break even

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number, you'll never make money in the wine business. And I realized that years and

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years ago. So today I'm proud to say I'm an investor

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in over 19 different vineyards. So 3000 acres

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either owned or leased, and we ship 2 million cases a

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year. Is that part of the O'Leary estates brand as well?

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O'Leary is just one of the brands. It's vintage estates. Recently went

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public on the New York Stock Exchange. I was privileged to be able to go

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there with the executives and ring the bell. Last week in New York, went public

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through a sPac. But Pat Roney, the head of that team, has been rolling up

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the wine business for years. He's been acquiring

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venture after venture Vineyard. It's just been going on and going

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on. All of these different estates have been acquired under the Vintage Estates label.

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Because in the end of the day, if you're going to be a player, you

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have to have the ability not only to make great wine, but to be able

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to ship hundreds of thousands of cases a day. And that's

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what we're able to do now. So I'm very much part of that. I'm exploring

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a much deeper relationship with the wine industry now as I move into

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direct to consumer in 42 states. That's where you can

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make money building a direct relationship with a customer. That's an

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exciting opportunity for Mister Ronet. When I got to visit him at

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Napa a few weeks ago, and I was so, I was humbled by the fact

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that he would even sit with me days before

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he went to New York and rang the bell. And I was appreciative of that.

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And I find that fascinating, because he didn't start that long ago. And he's

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diligent in his discipline, and his business acumen is obviously very good,

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and his discipline is very high. And he just was studious to make sure he

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understood the industry and has touched most

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pieces of it, if not all pieces of it. Manufacturing, growing

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direct to consumer, the wholesale trade. I buy a lot of wines through the

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wholesale network here in southern California from vintage estates,

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and there aren't, I don't know. I think the first public

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brand of wine was not that long ago, really. How many now

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do you believe there are? I think there's about five or seven public companies

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that deal with wine. Yeah. It's not a heavily indexed industry yet. I mean,

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you think about the difficulty of consolidating and getting scale.

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The land is very hard to buy. A lot of it's owned by

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people that don't care if they make money or not. It doesn't matter. It's just

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a hobby. I mean, there isn't much Sonoma in Napa left to buy

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anyways, and Walla Walla and Washington state. But at the same

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time, the industry actually survived

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quite well through the pandemic as the direct to consumer business got

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launched. And so now some of the skill sets required to make it in the

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wine business weren't what they were two years ago. Direct to consumer

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marketing, social media, logistics, all of that

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have now taken the fore. And if you can't provide that in a winery, you're

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going to go out of business, because we're still not back 100%

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retail. We're still not back in restaurants, open 100% anywhere. We're all

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optimistic. But the purchase behavior of the average american

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consumer has changed. They don't want to carry a 39 pound case from the

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store. They want it delivered to them. And that's what I've learned,

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and that's what we're focusing on. Well, the DTC

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market, direct to consumer market during the pandemic was incredible. Right.

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So we had an amazing surge here at the wine of the month club. It's

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still sort of surviving, though. We all expect that

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there'll be some pullback because the restaurants are open and because the

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restaurants are buying again and because consumers want to get out of the house. But

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it's still quite a spike from 2019 and

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2018. But there was something

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interesting that I had a conversation with the Napa Valley Register wine Beet writer, and

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she was talking about just before the pandemic. I think it was like February, late

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February. I visited her. She goes you know, we're just learning how to

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chat. And I thought to myself, you know, this is really interesting, that

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most winemakers in the beginning are farmers, right? They just. They farm grapes.

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They're part of the land. They want to produce a good quality product. They

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sell the grapes, and they start making wine. And I thought, how do you see

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the farmer in front of a monitor and wait for that chat bell to go

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off and then try to sell something? And I think what you're

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saying is exactly right, is moving towards a consumer who understands the

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Internet now, who's always on the Internet, who sees these ads on Facebook

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and Instagram and responds to the ad, because why? I

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think pandemic created a lot more confidence in buying wine over

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the Internet. I also think it's about trusting the brand.

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I'm very fortunate to have millions of followers on social media. Everybody knows

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me from Shark Tank as the wine guy. I blend

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my own wines. I don't just slap my name on a bottle. I really care

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that these wines are excellent. I serve them to my family. I give

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them to gifts, all my business partners. So I care what's in the bottle, and

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I'm pretty good at it. And, you know, I've been able to adapt

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classic french wines, pinots

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and cabernets and others

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Chardonnays, Montreichet, to the american palette. So when I'm thinking

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about bringing over a Chardonnay from a french

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heavy oak style or maybe a Crisper Montrechet style, I adapt that

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into my Chardonnays. And I've been very fortunate because just my standard

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Chardonnay has now won its fifth gold award. And so I'm very

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proud of it because I know that the palette in the US has changed

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slightly. People don't want the heavy oak anymore. They want a crisper, lighter experience, a

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lot more fruit forward. And we've been able to develop that into the O'Leary shards

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and as a result, have been winning awards left and right. But I don't think

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that's rocket science. It's really getting people to try it in different regions of the

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world. What people say in New York are different, what they say in Florida different.

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What they say in Texas or California, you have to take that data

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and almost be scientific about it and figure out, okay, these are massive states. I

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have huge amount of users there that want to try these wines. I've got to

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blend a wine that's going to match all of their expectations, and that's exactly

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what we do at O'Leary fine wines. I think that's a hugely important

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factor of your brand. And I see, I've been

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watching celebrity brands come and go for 30 years

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now. There were 16 PGA golfers that had brands that all failed. There's

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only one left, of course, Mister Norman. And it's

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because you take an interest. You actually taste the wines. You actually blend the wines.

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You actually participate in what the profile that wine is supposed to be like, based

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on what you're saying, the consumer's interest in the

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brands. And it's funny you said that about the over oak

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Chardonnays. I did a wedding tasting two nights ago at a family's

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house. I brought an over Oak Chardonnay, which I don't care for,

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but people like them, the rombauers of the world. And I took a

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nice, crisp, California Monterey Chardonnay, and that won hands down

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over the oaked one. And I thought to myself, I said, that's really interesting, because

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it wasn't that long ago that that Oak Chardonnay would have been

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the preferred brand and the preferred character, which to us,

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to you and me, in any way, you lose the sense of Chardonnay. The character

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of the Chardonnay gets lost in too much oak. And you're. And you're

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right about that. Wine won't age. You know, they're all

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drunk young. So maybe that's why people like them. You know, they like them because

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once they did age, they'd be out of balance. Anyway, you know, it's interesting to

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me, and I've watched how many episodes of shark tanks, and particularly ones that deal

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with wine. You know, these are pretty well

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versed guys and gals on the show. They've been around. They've probably been to

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many fancy dinners and. And tastings and things. And they don't seem to really understand

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wine to the extent that I would think they

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would. And that's not the right way to say it. That I would. That I

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would say they laughed at you when you were talking about the Chevaliers

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that one time on that one episode. And I thought that was hilarious.

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Yeah. Either you like wine, you don't, but I think

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wine can be something you just drink occasionally. It can become a

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hobby, or it could become a profession. It can become an investment.

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I have a very, very active futures business. I buy

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wine futures. I trade what I call divorce sellers.

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If you have a hedge fund manager getting divorced, the first thing that

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goes is the seller. And I have a team that goes and assesses what's there.

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We bid cash for it. We take an

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airline hangar, and we break it up into the lots for the

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syndicate. And I've been doing this for years.

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You know, I have a pretty five different sellers around the world. And

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yet at the same time, I mean, it's, wine's a business. And so what I

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like to do is have a deep knowledge of the different bridals from

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the old world and then try and adapt those

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to new world pellets. And the same thing with, with Syrahs

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and Malbecs. I recently launched a malbak, the

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argentinian berries. But I had to really pull it back quite a bit

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because it's such a big, spicy wine that I could get even for

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people that like spicy cab, Cabernet Sauvignon.

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I thought it was too overpowering, so I had to do some work in blending

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it down a bit, and it was well received. We actually partnered

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with QVC on that one. We sold $5.2

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million worth of wine in 20 hours. That's a record.

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And we were able to ship all that wine within 48 hours. And so that's

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the combination of the science and logistics, the investment in

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infrastructure, and the ability to market the wine. If people trust you,

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everybody on QVC knows that I've been selling wine there for years. I'm

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the number one purveyor of wine there because I built a following that. Trust me.

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And my return rates are extremely low because I know what that buyer

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wants, and they know what their palate's like and what they enjoy.

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And so I bring the rose and the sweet wines in April, and then we

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pull it back for the fall, Thanksgiving, into the more Pinot

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cabernet Sauvignon's, the reds,

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and then into the holiday season. We go back into the sweet

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wines, Moscato, and things like that. And that whole ebb and

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flow of taste through the year is part of what we've

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learned over time to mine data for and figure out what to grow,

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when to grow it, how much juice to make, how many bottles to prepare for

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all of that stuff. It's a science, but it's still an art.

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That's a real interesting point, and I talk about this all the time. For

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one to make money in this industry is very hard. No matter what side you're

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on, whether you're a direct to consumer center like we are, or a

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manufacturer, it's just difficult to do because the margins aren't that great.

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You can't, you can't buy a widget for a dollar and sell it for ten.

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It doesn't work in the wine business. It's. It's. There's too many hands in the

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pie. There's too many pieces of money, you know, too many

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ways to spend money to get it to the consumer. And you've done an incredible

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job making that efficient and filling the logistics pipeline with wine

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that allows you to lower shipping costs. And, you know, we have

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returns issues, we have state legislation issues, we have compliance

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issues. We have cola labeling. I mean, there's a lot of complicated moving

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parts to make this work, and you've made it work. I was

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talking to Mike Solachi at Opus, and he was telling me that in

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2018, Cabernet Sauvignon was $8,000 a

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ton for grapes, and that equates to something like $120 a bottle for the

238
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juice. Well, how can you possibly compete

239
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with other brands that are known well and

240
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have to sell the wine for $175 a bottle? I mean, it's almost impossible. And

241
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this is what the plight of the pandemic and as well as the fires

242
00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:47,358
in Napa have caused a lot of small wineries to be in rather difficult

243
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situation. Not having a harvest and

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not having embraced the direct to consumer market like they could have

245
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in the pandemic. Yet now we have all this. There's a lot of commotion going

246
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on in Napa right now. It's a very difficult industry to

247
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parse out. And it's kudos to your brand and your branding and

248
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your understanding of the marketplace to make it work, because

249
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it is more than just the art of wine. I have to say this

250
00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:17,054
a thousand times, but it is business. You can only survive losing

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money so long when you're trying to make wine and sell it until it's

252
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just. You just can't afford it anymore.

253
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It's about scale. You talk about juice costing that much of.

254
00:15:28,268 --> 00:15:31,332
Although you can never make money at that situation. The only way around it is

255
00:15:31,348 --> 00:15:35,164
to really scale up. You need thousands and thousands of acres,

256
00:15:35,284 --> 00:15:38,764
obviously, Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon classics. They're

257
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the great american red and white wine. But we

258
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also sell Costco and target and other

259
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entities that have huge demands and volume, and they

260
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want delivery, they complexity. We

261
00:15:54,208 --> 00:15:58,000
even have specialty business where if you want to etch a magnum

262
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for a wedding, we can do that, too. We look at all aspects of the

263
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,688
direct to consumer business and figure out how do we acquire a customer at what

264
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cost, and then what can we sell them on an annual basis? And does it

265
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make money? It's very much the

266
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ability to understand that preference. But lately, with all of the

267
00:16:16,136 --> 00:16:19,922
data you can mine, when you sell direct, the preference of flavor,

268
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the preference of red versus white, the time of the year they're buying,

269
00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:27,230
is it around a birthday or a holiday? What is it they are actually buying

270
00:16:27,262 --> 00:16:30,742
at different seasons and just pouring all that data

271
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together and figuring out what to grow. You have to be totally

272
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vertically integrated and make the assumption you're able

273
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to meet demand, because there's nothing worse than acquiring a customer and then

274
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dissatisfying them on choices. They can't get what they want when they want it.

275
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That's a disaster. That's a hugely important part in what you're

276
00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:52,862
doing, is so right on, because I can't tell.

277
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Any business I've seen come from business school,

278
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entrepreneur school, maybe Harvard Business School, Cornell, and they

279
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follow the spreadsheets and that's all they do. And they understand that wine is such

280
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an emotional product and you have to connect to the brand.

281
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Unlike most products, there are a lot, of course, procter and gamble, toothpaste

282
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and salad dressing. But when it comes to wine, it's so

283
00:17:15,195 --> 00:17:18,915
brand driven to understand and trust O'Leary estates as the brand of

284
00:17:18,939 --> 00:17:22,395
their choice. And knowing that if you try a new varietal like

285
00:17:22,419 --> 00:17:25,651
Malbec or Seurat, you're going to get a good shot at it being something that

286
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you're going to like because you trust the brand. And it's just

287
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so important, you know,

288
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it's. I'm trying to sort some thoughts

289
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on my coffee is where, what inspires you to do this in the first place?

290
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I mean, we're going to go back to the, to the Chevaliers here in a

291
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second. But where was this love of wine? Where did it start?

292
00:17:47,934 --> 00:17:51,118
Well, when I was young, my birth

293
00:17:51,166 --> 00:17:54,894
father died when he was 36 years old. He was very young. My mother

294
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remarried and my stepfather

295
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actually joined the United nations. And we started traveling around the world.

296
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Tunisia, Ethiopia, Cyprus,

297
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Switzerland, Germany, France, Japan. Every two years

298
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we moved, and it was a remarkable upbringing, but he had a great love

299
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,272
of wine. And he, whether we lived in Tunis, in

300
00:18:16,288 --> 00:18:20,044
Tunisia or Morocco or wherever, he would always

301
00:18:20,704 --> 00:18:24,520
learn about the varietals in those regions and look for

302
00:18:24,552 --> 00:18:28,204
great wines and take me on that journey with them, even though I was

303
00:18:28,584 --> 00:18:32,024
1516 years old. So I was brought up in more of the traditional

304
00:18:32,064 --> 00:18:35,588
european fashion work. Kids that age, it's very common to be given

305
00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:39,292
wine. It's not a bad thing. And then I

306
00:18:39,388 --> 00:18:43,092
became part of what I knew, and then I became more interested as I

307
00:18:43,108 --> 00:18:46,364
got older and got into a much deeper

308
00:18:46,404 --> 00:18:49,852
understanding of Bordeaux and Burgundy's and italian

309
00:18:49,908 --> 00:18:53,584
wines, and started to collect

310
00:18:54,804 --> 00:18:58,436
and go through the different vintages. I could tell the difference between an 82 and

311
00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:02,216
88, 89 and a 90. Now, you know,

312
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,008
you put a mask over the bottle, I'll tell you if it's a vertical

313
00:19:06,056 --> 00:19:09,856
litter or chevron, whatever. I did that because I

314
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,568
enjoyed it. But the wine business itself actually started from

315
00:19:13,616 --> 00:19:16,688
years and years ago. Sharknakes been on the air for 13 years and years ago.

316
00:19:16,736 --> 00:19:20,484
There was a deal called Zip's Wine, which was a single serve application.

317
00:19:21,104 --> 00:19:24,640
The first time I'd seen it. Using nitrogen to steal the

318
00:19:24,712 --> 00:19:28,418
plastic glass and making it available would last for entire summer

319
00:19:28,466 --> 00:19:32,090
season. And I was intrigued as a business to get involved in

320
00:19:32,122 --> 00:19:35,890
that. And I knew at the time I did the

321
00:19:35,922 --> 00:19:39,682
deal. I knew at the time that Costco was the

322
00:19:39,698 --> 00:19:42,906
biggest wine buyer on earth. And I just, you know, one of the great things

323
00:19:42,930 --> 00:19:45,898
of being a shark is most people return your calls. But I had no idea

324
00:19:45,946 --> 00:19:48,922
who the head buyer was at that time. It was a woman who's now a

325
00:19:48,938 --> 00:19:51,974
legend named Annette Alvarez. She worked

326
00:19:52,754 --> 00:19:56,410
here in Florida, sweeping the floors of Costco. But her palate was so

327
00:19:56,442 --> 00:20:00,002
extraordinary that she ended up being the world's largest buyer when she became the head

328
00:20:00,018 --> 00:20:03,014
of the entire wine vertical in Costco.

329
00:20:03,314 --> 00:20:06,770
And I decided to just cold call her on a

330
00:20:06,802 --> 00:20:10,602
Saturday. The air showed on a Friday, and

331
00:20:10,778 --> 00:20:14,330
I was able to get her cell phone number through nefarious ways. And I got

332
00:20:14,362 --> 00:20:18,014
it and I left her a message, and about 20 minutes later,

333
00:20:19,794 --> 00:20:23,192
phone range, and it was Annette. And she said,

334
00:20:23,368 --> 00:20:27,072
you were rude to Barbara last night on shark Tank. I said,

335
00:20:27,128 --> 00:20:30,928
what? What does that have to do with anything?

336
00:20:31,056 --> 00:20:33,976
And she said, no, I just didn't like the way you cut her off. And

337
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,040
I said, that's good. When I cut her up, Annette, it's good to hear less

338
00:20:37,072 --> 00:20:40,656
from Barbara. Anyways, we got into that conversation first,

339
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,504
and she basically said, look, I know the deal.

340
00:20:44,584 --> 00:20:48,328
I watch shark tank. I'm leaving with my husband to Hawaii for holiday.

341
00:20:48,416 --> 00:20:52,130
We'll be in John Wayne airport on Saturday. Next Saturday, a week

342
00:20:52,162 --> 00:20:55,522
away. I'll give you an hour of my time in the layover, and I want

343
00:20:55,538 --> 00:20:57,562
to meet your wife. And I said, you want to meet my wife? She said,

344
00:20:57,578 --> 00:20:59,786
yeah, I want to know what kind of woman would marry a guy like you.

345
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I said, okay, great. So we flew across the coast

346
00:21:03,466 --> 00:21:07,218
and we met with Annette. And she basically said this to me. It was really

347
00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:10,546
intriguing. She said, look, Kevin, you want to be in the wine business, you might

348
00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:12,922
be a great collector of wine. You may know a lot about wine, but you

349
00:21:12,938 --> 00:21:16,658
don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the wine business. I'll tell

350
00:21:16,666 --> 00:21:19,572
you what it's going to take to do business with me. If you want to

351
00:21:19,588 --> 00:21:22,580
do business with me, you're going to have to take an order from me and

352
00:21:22,612 --> 00:21:26,428
deliver me 150,000 cases in

353
00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:30,276
one week. Now, how the hell are you going to do that? I said,

354
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:33,828
well, Annette, that's ridiculous. Nobody can do that. She said, yes, there is someone who

355
00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:37,388
can do that. His name is Pat Roney. You go cut a deal with

356
00:21:37,436 --> 00:21:40,436
Pat to vintage wine estates, you figure out what you're going to do with him

357
00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:44,012
as a partnership, and then we can do business. And that was the beginning of

358
00:21:44,028 --> 00:21:47,866
my journey into the real game, because Rony had

359
00:21:47,970 --> 00:21:51,802
the scale, he had the logistics, he had the order system, and

360
00:21:51,818 --> 00:21:55,250
he had enough juice that I could start blending. In fact, what you're looking at

361
00:21:55,282 --> 00:21:58,722
behind me is one of the very first barrel rooms that I was blending

362
00:21:58,778 --> 00:22:02,442
in years and years and years ago. This picture is very old. It's when I

363
00:22:02,458 --> 00:22:05,974
first started with Jung and we built this business up together.

364
00:22:06,474 --> 00:22:10,130
Initially, I was in retail, but then

365
00:22:10,202 --> 00:22:13,930
when the laws changed, and this was the magic moment for me in the wine

366
00:22:13,962 --> 00:22:17,806
business, you recall it was only a few years ago when 42 states opened up

367
00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:21,654
that will allow you to directly ship, if you owned a winery in California,

368
00:22:21,774 --> 00:22:25,590
direct to the consumer. Well, Katy, bar, the doors. When I saw that,

369
00:22:25,622 --> 00:22:29,190
I said, watch this. And we started doing tests on

370
00:22:29,222 --> 00:22:32,870
television. It worked. We just blew the

371
00:22:32,902 --> 00:22:35,754
doors off. Direct to consumer. And now,

372
00:22:37,054 --> 00:22:39,958
as far as I'm concerned, there's no other way to sell wine. You cut out

373
00:22:40,006 --> 00:22:43,180
three tiers of distribution. Spectacular. Direct to

374
00:22:43,212 --> 00:22:47,036
consumer. The chain. The laws are changing again, and I think

375
00:22:47,060 --> 00:22:50,860
there's more states coming online for the o. Two winery licenses

376
00:22:50,892 --> 00:22:54,540
in California. There's some states that are headed toward retail as

377
00:22:54,572 --> 00:22:58,180
well. There are some states that are clamping down. There's even talk of

378
00:22:58,212 --> 00:23:01,972
Utah doing something which would be like the only state has ever thrown anybody

379
00:23:01,988 --> 00:23:04,784
in jail for shipping alcohol into their state. So

380
00:23:05,564 --> 00:23:09,380
it's pretty dynamic. And there is this conflict between the

381
00:23:09,412 --> 00:23:13,170
commerce clause of the constitution and the restriction of alcohol

382
00:23:13,202 --> 00:23:16,802
over state lines, all from post prohibition and Joe Kennedy trying to

383
00:23:16,818 --> 00:23:20,538
protect his base. But I see that loosening quickly, and you

384
00:23:20,546 --> 00:23:23,962
were quick to take advantage of it. But, I mean, even then, to produce 150,000

385
00:23:24,018 --> 00:23:27,786
cases in a week was quite a tall order. I mean,

386
00:23:27,810 --> 00:23:31,346
that's pretty amazing. How long ago, what year was that you were saying that

387
00:23:31,370 --> 00:23:35,106
happened. That was eight years ago now, but we do

388
00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:38,534
that on a routine basis now. We produce more than that.

389
00:23:39,164 --> 00:23:42,516
We ship millions of cases. Wasn't that the. I'm

390
00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:46,372
sorry, wasn't that the pre dosed

391
00:23:46,428 --> 00:23:50,132
wines that you're talking about that shark tank offered? It

392
00:23:50,148 --> 00:23:53,724
was the single serve, which actually, the market took off for. There's been other

393
00:23:53,764 --> 00:23:57,596
attempts to put wine in cans and all kinds of ideas, but

394
00:23:57,620 --> 00:24:01,148
the real volume is done in the traditional bottle. I mean,

395
00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:04,812
I just drop shipped my new 2020 Chardonnay this

396
00:24:04,868 --> 00:24:08,424
week. This is, you know, I've even pulled back

397
00:24:08,884 --> 00:24:12,500
the oak even more. I just keep getting the data, and I mine for the

398
00:24:12,532 --> 00:24:15,788
data, and people want those big fruit forward,

399
00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:19,524
crisp, Montreichet style, apricot, blueberry,

400
00:24:19,644 --> 00:24:23,396
raspberry. I mean, it's really. This one

401
00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:27,100
has been a huge winner for us, and I'm very, very conscious of it.

402
00:24:27,132 --> 00:24:30,372
I try it out on lots and lots of women. Women buy about 90% of

403
00:24:30,388 --> 00:24:34,166
that chart, and then this is a very rich pinot noir.

404
00:24:34,270 --> 00:24:37,982
I'm getting better and better with the Walla Valley varietals. The terroir is

405
00:24:37,998 --> 00:24:41,726
so much so close to DRC Region that I'm

406
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:45,334
able to get that barnyard nose that

407
00:24:45,414 --> 00:24:48,462
is so famous. And I tell the american palate when I talk to them on

408
00:24:48,478 --> 00:24:52,118
television, listen, I want you to smell the inside of a pig

409
00:24:52,166 --> 00:24:55,942
barn. And I think people really get intrigued because this

410
00:24:55,958 --> 00:24:59,406
was one of my best sellers on my recent sale, I said, you're going to

411
00:24:59,430 --> 00:25:02,646
smell the barnyard, you're going to smell the pigs, you're going to smell the

412
00:25:02,670 --> 00:25:06,462
cows, and then you're going to sip this incredible elixir, and

413
00:25:06,478 --> 00:25:09,950
you're going to get an explosive outcome. And I got to tell you, the

414
00:25:09,982 --> 00:25:13,822
pno this year, even though it's early in the

415
00:25:13,838 --> 00:25:17,114
morning for me, I was sampling some of

416
00:25:17,534 --> 00:25:21,374
the different bottles to get bottled, just variants, to see what it was like across

417
00:25:21,414 --> 00:25:24,990
a few cases. You're saying it's from Walla Walla?

418
00:25:25,182 --> 00:25:29,014
Yep. So it's a Washington state pinot? Yep.

419
00:25:29,094 --> 00:25:32,710
It's spectacular. Oh, my goodness. And you, you know, I gotta tell.

420
00:25:32,742 --> 00:25:36,270
You, you know, we can compete with the French. They have the

421
00:25:36,302 --> 00:25:39,674
brand, but what we can do now in the new world

422
00:25:40,094 --> 00:25:43,422
can kick French Bunn. There's no question about it. You

423
00:25:43,438 --> 00:25:47,262
know, we're in our infancy. We're in our infancy when

424
00:25:47,278 --> 00:25:50,394
it comes to these things. How much potential do we have?

425
00:25:50,794 --> 00:25:54,578
Well, I have Latash in my cellar. I have eschenzol. And in

426
00:25:54,586 --> 00:25:58,362
the summertime at my lake house, I have the big, snobby

427
00:25:58,458 --> 00:26:02,226
wine taste sock, where I bring out a latasha, a latour.

428
00:26:02,330 --> 00:26:05,706
I go from Burgundy to Bordeaux, and I say, okay, we're going to do a

429
00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:09,562
blind taste test. Three whites, three reds, and you're not going to

430
00:26:09,578 --> 00:26:12,698
know what they are. And I bring out the heavy guns, like an

431
00:26:12,746 --> 00:26:16,554
82 latour, and I put my own

432
00:26:16,714 --> 00:26:20,392
white beside it. That's funny. And more than

433
00:26:20,448 --> 00:26:24,044
50% of the time, and I have 2025 people over.

434
00:26:24,344 --> 00:26:28,016
We did a white taste test last year and knocked

435
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,640
everybody's socks off. I had a $14 bottle of

436
00:26:31,672 --> 00:26:35,512
my chardonnay at one beat out. That

437
00:26:35,528 --> 00:26:39,192
is really funny. You need to

438
00:26:39,208 --> 00:26:42,976
understand the palate. You need to understand where people's palates are going, where

439
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,690
the puck is going, not where it was. Well, it's interesting. You said that you

440
00:26:46,722 --> 00:26:50,402
vented this walla walla. Pinot for one. Walla Walla for pinot noir is a very

441
00:26:50,418 --> 00:26:54,234
unusual thing anyway, and so you found a district that creates this

442
00:26:54,274 --> 00:26:57,962
burgundian character, which is fascinating to know. I mean,

443
00:26:57,978 --> 00:27:01,506
I've tasted 300 wines a month. I've been doing it for 30 years. I don't.

444
00:27:01,570 --> 00:27:05,090
I can tell you on one hand probably how many walla walla pinos I've tasted.

445
00:27:05,242 --> 00:27:08,546
And here you find. Well, and what happened in this case is we bought a

446
00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:11,966
winery, and there was barrels, the

447
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:15,422
origin not known, but they were resting in peace

448
00:27:15,478 --> 00:27:19,326
there. And so you may be right, they didn't originate there, but

449
00:27:19,470 --> 00:27:23,078
we got all the inventory, and when I tasted it, I was blown

450
00:27:23,206 --> 00:27:26,942
away. Wow. There was also some cabernet Sauvignon there. So

451
00:27:26,958 --> 00:27:30,174
I did something that's extraordinary. I actually blended them across

452
00:27:30,294 --> 00:27:33,926
years. I found these incredible barrels. We only had

453
00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:37,766
one crack at the bucket on this one, but we blended a cabernet

454
00:27:37,790 --> 00:27:41,314
Sauvignon from these extraordinary barrels

455
00:27:41,654 --> 00:27:45,406
were also from Walla Walla, and that won plenty of awards. But

456
00:27:45,550 --> 00:27:48,958
it's unusual to do that, to experiment that way. But you can do that in

457
00:27:48,966 --> 00:27:51,494
a new world. If you tried to do that in French, you'd lose your pension.

458
00:27:51,574 --> 00:27:54,950
That's right. I mean, you'd be breaking every law known to man over there. But

459
00:27:55,022 --> 00:27:58,622
in the new world, we can experiment. We can try things. We can blend the

460
00:27:58,638 --> 00:28:02,398
way we want. And certainly blending is the only way

461
00:28:02,446 --> 00:28:06,240
you're going to match the american palate and how fast it moves

462
00:28:06,392 --> 00:28:10,240
you remember, you know, Rose, just a decade ago

463
00:28:10,352 --> 00:28:14,024
was nothing. Look at it now. I mean, it's incredible.

464
00:28:14,064 --> 00:28:17,720
And that's partly because of resurgence of the other

465
00:28:17,752 --> 00:28:21,080
thing. I don't know if you remember Bridget Bardot in one of her early movies

466
00:28:21,112 --> 00:28:23,004
in 19 54 55

467
00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:28,320
put ice in her wine. She put ice in her

468
00:28:28,352 --> 00:28:31,796
rose because she was between takes

469
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,684
and they filmed it. I think it was Life magazine or look magazine

470
00:28:35,724 --> 00:28:39,500
was on the set shooting and she was very hot. It was at

471
00:28:39,532 --> 00:28:43,380
St. Consanc, which is a famous restaurant. It's just a tent over the sand.

472
00:28:43,532 --> 00:28:47,100
And they had all these images of her putting ice

473
00:28:47,172 --> 00:28:50,664
into wine and it caused a sensation.

474
00:28:51,084 --> 00:28:54,900
And it's so common today to see people putting ice into

475
00:28:54,932 --> 00:28:58,396
their rose. And that's where it started. And so that experimental

476
00:28:58,460 --> 00:29:01,764
vibe, the whole idea of having fun with wines and

477
00:29:01,924 --> 00:29:05,356
doing things differently and blending them yourself and saying, go ahead, put ice in the

478
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:09,076
wine, and it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. It's what

479
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,756
you like. I guess where I draw the

480
00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:16,144
line is I traded a case of

481
00:29:16,444 --> 00:29:19,996
Latour in 1990 to a buyer who mixed it with

482
00:29:20,020 --> 00:29:23,492
Coca Cola. Yeah, that freaked me out.

483
00:29:23,628 --> 00:29:27,388
I read about the chinese market doing quite a bit of that in

484
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:31,098
the beginning, though. I think they're more educated now. But that was.

485
00:29:31,146 --> 00:29:34,946
That is kind of disgusting, frankly. Well, I mean, you know, it's an

486
00:29:34,970 --> 00:29:38,074
acquired taste, but that was a 1990s

487
00:29:38,154 --> 00:29:41,414
latour in the wood, like one of the great vintages,

488
00:29:42,034 --> 00:29:45,514
rare bottle of wine, and that's what happened to it. One of the great

489
00:29:45,554 --> 00:29:49,322
vintages of the century. You know, it's funny, you said the rose thing

490
00:29:49,338 --> 00:29:52,946
is very interesting to me because this is southern California. We don't see a lot.

491
00:29:52,970 --> 00:29:56,658
It takes a little longer sometimes for wines to reach the west coast

492
00:29:56,706 --> 00:30:00,410
as far as their pallets are concerned. But now I'm seeing so many roses

493
00:30:00,442 --> 00:30:04,042
from many, many districts of the world, and I'm trying to determine whether

494
00:30:04,098 --> 00:30:07,906
these roses are new or they've always had them at these obscure

495
00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:11,666
districts. They just decided to start sending them. Like you can buy Tuscan roses and

496
00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:15,482
Bordeaux roses, which are kind of rare roses from the

497
00:30:15,498 --> 00:30:19,090
Canary Islands, from Sardinia, from Croatia. And so I'm

498
00:30:19,122 --> 00:30:22,738
thinking, gee, did the rose phenomenon start? And so these

499
00:30:22,786 --> 00:30:25,930
districts decided to make them, or they've always made them and now they're

500
00:30:25,962 --> 00:30:29,770
popular? No, no, they haven't always made them. What happened

501
00:30:29,802 --> 00:30:33,294
was this explosion of north american demand for rose

502
00:30:33,834 --> 00:30:37,626
and also the different styles of roses, because I

503
00:30:37,650 --> 00:30:41,442
notice on the east coast, when we bring a sweeter rose, we

504
00:30:41,458 --> 00:30:44,970
do very, very well. And so, same with Moscato. I mean, those wines do

505
00:30:45,002 --> 00:30:48,706
incredibly well in the April time period. And then as we get into

506
00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:52,082
the fall, we want something a little crisper. The season for Jose

507
00:30:52,178 --> 00:30:55,886
extended a little bit. We still get sales in September, which

508
00:30:55,910 --> 00:30:59,514
was unheard of. And so it's becoming a varietal

509
00:31:00,014 --> 00:31:03,278
of year round popularity.

510
00:31:03,446 --> 00:31:07,270
And Rose is not a wine. You're going to sell her for more than,

511
00:31:07,382 --> 00:31:11,182
I don't know, 15 months or something. I try and make sure I'm out of

512
00:31:11,198 --> 00:31:14,590
it by the end of the season, so I'm not leaving it lying down over

513
00:31:14,622 --> 00:31:18,366
the winter. But the demand is insatiable. So all these regions

514
00:31:18,390 --> 00:31:21,448
you just spoke of said, wait a minute, I know how to make a rose.

515
00:31:21,606 --> 00:31:25,100
I'll figure that out, because I can sell every case I make, and all

516
00:31:25,132 --> 00:31:28,740
roses, as you know, are not made equally. And there's a lot of really

517
00:31:28,812 --> 00:31:32,652
crappy rose on the wine on the market. And when I

518
00:31:32,788 --> 00:31:36,524
really, when you bring a rose, you want to make sure, because

519
00:31:36,564 --> 00:31:40,204
you're going to get a lot of cross pollination for your Moscato drinker from people

520
00:31:40,244 --> 00:31:44,052
that really like sweet wines, dessert wines, they're going to try that rose and

521
00:31:44,068 --> 00:31:47,624
you want to make sure that their expectations are met. I'm all about,

522
00:31:48,394 --> 00:31:51,322
I always say I have your back on one. You're going to try something new

523
00:31:51,338 --> 00:31:54,362
for me. You know my brand. Trust me, I'm going to make it for you.

524
00:31:54,498 --> 00:31:58,242
And so far, knock on a barrel of a wood barrel

525
00:31:58,298 --> 00:32:01,874
had been successful. That's a, that's interesting, because

526
00:32:01,954 --> 00:32:05,786
I took these three roses for this wedding, and I, I deliberately took

527
00:32:05,810 --> 00:32:09,298
three different styles because I wanted them to taste. And I had the whole table.

528
00:32:09,346 --> 00:32:12,866
There was eight people there. Everybody had a different opinion about which one they thought

529
00:32:12,890 --> 00:32:16,554
was best. And there was one sweeter, you know, slight residual

530
00:32:16,594 --> 00:32:20,242
sugar pump up if it was from passo. I had one from the provence, which

531
00:32:20,258 --> 00:32:24,042
is leaner and cleaner, and I had one biodynamic one, I think it was from

532
00:32:24,178 --> 00:32:27,938
Mendocino, actually. And all three of them

533
00:32:28,106 --> 00:32:31,474
had a separate character. And each one of them

534
00:32:31,514 --> 00:32:34,970
garnered the votes from various people, but none of them came out as

535
00:32:35,002 --> 00:32:38,454
shiners. I thought, wow, different palates just sitting at this table

536
00:32:38,954 --> 00:32:42,686
when it comes to Rose. And what I think happened with this group who were

537
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:46,174
not rose drinkers prior, they realized this is a pretty

538
00:32:46,214 --> 00:32:49,974
fascinating product, and they are so different from place to place

539
00:32:50,014 --> 00:32:53,302
and from manufacturer to manufacturer. And you're right, there's some really, really bad ones. I

540
00:32:53,318 --> 00:32:57,154
taste them all the time. I find this really fast. I find this fascinating because

541
00:32:59,694 --> 00:33:03,006
we're talking about the new world and it's very important. Jacques Ladier from Louis

542
00:33:03,030 --> 00:33:06,822
Jadot has told me, look, you guys in the new world from the

543
00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:10,180
beginning, have a chance to do whatever you want and to taste and experience experiment,

544
00:33:10,212 --> 00:33:13,988
including with food. In Burgundy, we're forced to make Pinot

545
00:33:13,996 --> 00:33:17,780
noir and Chardonnay, basically Bordeaux. We have five red grapes and three white

546
00:33:17,812 --> 00:33:21,500
grapes. We're stuck with that. And the foods have grown that way as

547
00:33:21,532 --> 00:33:24,740
well. They sort of come along. But in the new world, and I've been reading

548
00:33:24,772 --> 00:33:28,524
books on the cuisine of America, we get to experiment. We get to grow Malbec

549
00:33:28,564 --> 00:33:31,236
in Napa if we want to. Or we can grow it in Paso. We can

550
00:33:31,260 --> 00:33:34,396
grow it in Walla Walla, Washington. Doesn't matter. We can try it and see how

551
00:33:34,420 --> 00:33:38,136
it works. But you belong to this organization, which

552
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,120
is quite historical, called the conferee

553
00:33:41,312 --> 00:33:44,884
Chevalier de Testevent. And that is

554
00:33:45,224 --> 00:33:48,684
dyed in the wool, traditional burgundy. How did this come about?

555
00:33:51,024 --> 00:33:54,856
I have a very expensive seller of burgundian DRCs, which I did

556
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,608
as an investment years and years ago. These wines now trade

557
00:33:58,656 --> 00:34:02,430
for five, six, $7,000 a bottle. As you're aware, I dont sell

558
00:34:02,462 --> 00:34:06,222
my drcs. Theyre very hard to get. The prices have gone insane.

559
00:34:06,318 --> 00:34:10,118
Its very difficult to stay with your allocation each year as you watch these price

560
00:34:10,166 --> 00:34:13,874
escalations of 20% to 40% some years. But

561
00:34:14,734 --> 00:34:17,114
if you look for the most extreme

562
00:34:18,414 --> 00:34:21,874
wine lovers on earth, youre going to find them

563
00:34:22,334 --> 00:34:25,566
in burgundies, in white Burgundy, and in red

564
00:34:25,590 --> 00:34:29,382
burgundies. The way to appreciate

565
00:34:29,438 --> 00:34:33,230
it is to go there and see how small this region

566
00:34:33,302 --> 00:34:36,034
is. I mean, the Montrachet

567
00:34:37,414 --> 00:34:40,514
vineyard is the size of your backyard.

568
00:34:40,854 --> 00:34:44,678
Each row is worth 2 million, 3 million euro. LVMH

569
00:34:44,726 --> 00:34:47,574
is trying to buy them one roll at a time is the way the king

570
00:34:47,614 --> 00:34:51,270
used to get on death, taxes. Half a roll of wine there.

571
00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:55,220
I mean, it's extraordinary. The wines have brand.

572
00:34:55,292 --> 00:34:59,092
They have history. They have all of that. And so those societies, the Chevalier de

573
00:34:59,108 --> 00:35:02,464
Testevin, they gather

574
00:35:03,644 --> 00:35:07,204
usually every 60 days, and we do

575
00:35:07,244 --> 00:35:10,940
some serious drinking. Our seller in

576
00:35:10,972 --> 00:35:14,772
our chapter is worth millions of dollars.

577
00:35:14,908 --> 00:35:17,356
And if you want to come in as a member, now, you've got to buy

578
00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:20,860
in. But the deal we have for members that you can make the cut is

579
00:35:20,892 --> 00:35:24,524
you buy it at our cost. So you're getting an automatic appreciation of

580
00:35:24,564 --> 00:35:28,292
almost 500% to your allocation of the seller. So we have lots

581
00:35:28,308 --> 00:35:31,892
of people like to join, but we're very, very selective, as per the rules. You

582
00:35:31,908 --> 00:35:35,636
really have to know your stuff, and you know, and you have to have an

583
00:35:35,660 --> 00:35:39,132
allegiance, at least a collection, at least a commitment to the

584
00:35:39,148 --> 00:35:42,900
burgundian wines, which, you know, everybody drinks Bordeaux, I get it. But

585
00:35:43,012 --> 00:35:46,172
you don't bring a Bordeaux. Do whatever the egg. That's the bad

586
00:35:46,228 --> 00:35:49,516
dinner I've ever so many. Kick that

587
00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:53,350
one. That doesn't happen. And so

588
00:35:53,422 --> 00:35:56,878
you're basically having these roaring debates. And you remember in the mid

589
00:35:56,926 --> 00:36:00,758
nineties, there was a corkage issue on the whites,

590
00:36:00,886 --> 00:36:04,686
and so no one ever solved it. But a lot of the white had

591
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:08,070
matterized, spoiled, oxidized. It was

592
00:36:08,102 --> 00:36:11,878
tainted. Oh, you can't ship it back. And we had these raging debates as

593
00:36:11,886 --> 00:36:15,710
to what happened. And yet, the other night here in Miami, I

594
00:36:15,742 --> 00:36:19,178
enjoyed a 1997 Montrechet. It was

595
00:36:19,306 --> 00:36:22,978
perfect with one of my neighbors two towns north of here,

596
00:36:23,026 --> 00:36:26,214
who's got one of the world's largest private collections

597
00:36:26,514 --> 00:36:30,330
of white burgundies here in Florida. I have never seen

598
00:36:30,442 --> 00:36:34,194
a cellar that large. And because he has such perfect

599
00:36:34,234 --> 00:36:38,058
provenance for getting these wines, he's aging whites in a rare way that you

600
00:36:38,066 --> 00:36:41,650
don't see anymore. You know, for the listener, I wanted to peel

601
00:36:41,682 --> 00:36:45,506
back a little bit, because in Burgundy, you're required to grow in the

602
00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:49,016
reds, p o noir, unless you in the south and you grow some gamin Beaujolais.

603
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,824
But in Bordeaux, you're allowed to grow up to five varietals and

604
00:36:52,864 --> 00:36:56,592
blend them any way you want, or bottle them 100%. And so the

605
00:36:56,608 --> 00:36:59,864
argument goes on between the two districts

606
00:36:59,904 --> 00:37:03,496
is Bordeaux winemakers are blenders. You know, they're

607
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,136
farmers, too, but they're blenders. And in Burgundy, we have to be

608
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,832
very conscientious about our terroir and make sure that we garner the

609
00:37:10,888 --> 00:37:14,384
best grape from that soil. And there's something fascinating about

610
00:37:15,364 --> 00:37:19,092
Burgundy that turns me on, frankly, and I learned it

611
00:37:19,108 --> 00:37:22,932
from Albert Bichaux, the group Alberbi show, when they brought the

612
00:37:22,988 --> 00:37:26,628
rock samples from 10 meters

613
00:37:26,676 --> 00:37:30,460
down where the tap roots are. And if you're across the

614
00:37:30,492 --> 00:37:33,544
street from one of the great distress, let's just say Montrachet,

615
00:37:35,364 --> 00:37:39,212
or that 30 foot or ten meter root is touching completely different

616
00:37:39,268 --> 00:37:43,108
soil than its neighbor. And hence these micro

617
00:37:43,276 --> 00:37:46,412
small vineyards that create such dramatically different

618
00:37:46,468 --> 00:37:50,148
wines from its neighbor across the street, virtually

619
00:37:50,196 --> 00:37:53,900
from across the street. And that part is extraordinarily fascinating

620
00:37:53,932 --> 00:37:57,508
because it is terroir driven, is it not? Just completely driven on what we're going

621
00:37:57,516 --> 00:38:00,944
to get out of the soil. Yeah, I mean, people don't,

622
00:38:01,324 --> 00:38:05,124
in the new world, don't put as much weight on what I call stressing

623
00:38:05,164 --> 00:38:08,730
the grape. I mean, obviously, you know the rules. Burgundy,

624
00:38:08,842 --> 00:38:12,562
you can't water it, you can't put manure on it. Farmers that are caught

625
00:38:12,618 --> 00:38:16,002
putting manure in their pants and they're walking their vines and then letting it

626
00:38:16,018 --> 00:38:19,698
fall their pant legs. I mean, all these

627
00:38:19,786 --> 00:38:23,474
rules are very strict and handed down from hundreds of years ago,

628
00:38:23,594 --> 00:38:27,414
but it does show up in the personality of the wine.

629
00:38:28,754 --> 00:38:31,774
And I can tell it's incredible.

630
00:38:33,674 --> 00:38:37,502
I'm really in Bordeaux. I love Latour and I

631
00:38:37,518 --> 00:38:41,270
love Chevalier blanc and I've loved those forever. And I have massive

632
00:38:41,302 --> 00:38:45,030
verticals of those wines, but they have

633
00:38:45,102 --> 00:38:48,438
a different personality. They're not far apart from each other,

634
00:38:48,566 --> 00:38:52,110
but they're completely different. It's a combination of the

635
00:38:52,142 --> 00:38:55,846
blending and the terroir and the style of the

636
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:59,462
cellar. But that tobacco y, cigar

637
00:38:59,518 --> 00:39:03,288
y vibe that a latour has is never present in a

638
00:39:03,296 --> 00:39:06,816
chevron blanc, ever. Very delicate wine. And

639
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,004
I love to. People

640
00:39:10,984 --> 00:39:14,800
often come over for dinner to our home, and I'll say, look, how into

641
00:39:14,832 --> 00:39:18,072
wine are you? Because if they tell me they don't care, I'm not going to

642
00:39:18,088 --> 00:39:21,808
open a tour. Exactly. But if they really

643
00:39:21,856 --> 00:39:25,680
are knowledgeable, I'll say, let's go deep, vertical. Let's try two different

644
00:39:25,712 --> 00:39:29,430
wines and two different timeframes and enjoy. The

645
00:39:29,462 --> 00:39:33,190
conversation about wine is about storytelling and making of it, certainly about storytelling.

646
00:39:33,222 --> 00:39:36,694
But the drinking of it brings people together. I think it's a

647
00:39:36,734 --> 00:39:40,406
wonderful business if you can get into a place where you're

648
00:39:40,430 --> 00:39:43,834
making money doing it, and it takes you into extraordinary

649
00:39:44,294 --> 00:39:48,006
situations. Let me give you an example. I'm also a very large

650
00:39:48,070 --> 00:39:51,870
watch collector. It's a huge hobby of mine. It's an investment I make.

651
00:39:51,902 --> 00:39:55,732
I have very, very unique pieces. Now, here's where the

652
00:39:55,748 --> 00:39:58,544
two worlds merge together. There is a

653
00:39:59,564 --> 00:40:03,004
watchmaker named FP Journe. He's a

654
00:40:03,044 --> 00:40:06,612
frenchman, but he has set up shop in Geneva about 20 years

655
00:40:06,628 --> 00:40:10,436
ago, and he became an extraordinary watchmaker. He

656
00:40:10,460 --> 00:40:14,204
only makes 900 pieces a year. They appreciate in value

657
00:40:14,284 --> 00:40:17,796
about 400% the minute they leave the shop, if you can get one, which is

658
00:40:17,820 --> 00:40:21,184
narrowly impossible. However, here's what

659
00:40:21,224 --> 00:40:25,024
happened again, a great story. He shows up in Geneva

660
00:40:25,064 --> 00:40:27,844
making extraordinary timepieces as a young

661
00:40:28,144 --> 00:40:31,936
master learning his trade as a watchmaker. Some of

662
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,504
the authorities in Geneva say that, look, if you move to Geneva,

663
00:40:35,624 --> 00:40:39,448
we'll let you put the seal de Genevre on the back of the watch,

664
00:40:39,496 --> 00:40:43,124
saying that it's a swiss made watch headquartered in Geneva.

665
00:40:43,504 --> 00:40:47,180
And he said to them, no, I'm not putting

666
00:40:47,212 --> 00:40:51,044
that brand on my pieces. Mine are too good

667
00:40:51,084 --> 00:40:54,492
for that. Wow. I'm above that.

668
00:40:54,668 --> 00:40:58,344
And the watch community.

669
00:40:59,364 --> 00:41:03,100
Imagine Patek Philippe, Rolex, Adam RPK, all these massive

670
00:41:03,132 --> 00:41:06,852
brands. They just freaked out. Who the hell is

671
00:41:06,908 --> 00:41:10,700
this guy? How could he even think that? And

672
00:41:10,732 --> 00:41:14,164
that was the beginning of the legend of FD Jorn. Still

673
00:41:14,204 --> 00:41:17,548
alive. He's the Picasso. Watchmaking. However, this

674
00:41:17,596 --> 00:41:21,196
October, when the Jourin society meets, they'll be meeting in

675
00:41:21,220 --> 00:41:24,956
this exact room you see behind me. We're going to have a special

676
00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:28,836
tasting of my varietals from that year right out of the

677
00:41:28,860 --> 00:41:32,628
barrel. And we'll be also together with some of the most serious

678
00:41:32,716 --> 00:41:36,344
watch collectors in the world. Combining those two worlds together.

679
00:41:37,204 --> 00:41:40,666
People that collect really high end, you wouldn't be surprised to know

680
00:41:40,690 --> 00:41:44,538
that also collect really high end wines. And it's a wonderful chance. And FP

681
00:41:44,586 --> 00:41:48,082
Journe is an avid, a huge advocate for french wines. I plan on doing a

682
00:41:48,098 --> 00:41:51,938
blind test, taste test against his wines. He makes some and

683
00:41:51,946 --> 00:41:55,786
I'm going to kick his ass. That's great. Can I let there be a fly

684
00:41:55,810 --> 00:41:59,546
on the wall on that one? It's interesting because we were talking about

685
00:41:59,570 --> 00:42:02,578
this before and I brought it up. I mean, I put in my notes about

686
00:42:02,626 --> 00:42:06,378
watch collecting. I'm a classic car guy. I love classic cars.

687
00:42:06,426 --> 00:42:10,134
Watch the auctions. I'm constantly sending friends links to cars

688
00:42:10,174 --> 00:42:13,662
coming up for sale. And that's a volatile

689
00:42:13,718 --> 00:42:17,446
market, right? It always seems to go up. The upward graph has

690
00:42:17,470 --> 00:42:21,150
always been upwards, but it takes major dips along the way based on

691
00:42:21,182 --> 00:42:24,342
recessions and economic booms. Is it the same with

692
00:42:24,398 --> 00:42:28,230
watches, and particularly with wine as well? It's so hard to

693
00:42:28,262 --> 00:42:32,038
resell a wine, but you have a seller that would be properly controlled. But do

694
00:42:32,046 --> 00:42:33,714
you find that with the watches as well?

695
00:42:35,774 --> 00:42:39,582
The trouble with the watch market, when you get into the rarified pieces,

696
00:42:39,638 --> 00:42:42,918
I have one of a kind pieces now that are made by the various maisons

697
00:42:42,966 --> 00:42:46,414
for me, because I'm known as a collector. I can't sell those

698
00:42:46,454 --> 00:42:50,190
sideways. It would be impossible to have Adam

699
00:42:50,222 --> 00:42:53,806
Arcuquet make a one of a kind watch and then all of a sudden see

700
00:42:53,830 --> 00:42:56,594
it show up in the secondary market during your lifetime.

701
00:42:56,974 --> 00:43:00,670
So they would expect to see it in the state sale after your

702
00:43:00,702 --> 00:43:04,326
passing. That makes sense. Or passed on to your son or whatever, and your

703
00:43:04,350 --> 00:43:08,046
family. So, yes, while they're investments, and I do mark to market

704
00:43:08,110 --> 00:43:11,870
them for insurance purposes each night electronically, there's all kinds of applications.

705
00:43:11,942 --> 00:43:15,382
Now, one is called Chrono 24, that looks at the

706
00:43:15,478 --> 00:43:19,286
trading prices of every watch around the world, every minute, so

707
00:43:19,310 --> 00:43:23,158
that you're able to assess the value of your collection. But I don't sell watches

708
00:43:23,206 --> 00:43:26,974
because this is an FP join on my wrist right

709
00:43:27,014 --> 00:43:30,594
now. Centigraph. This watch is one of ten made.

710
00:43:31,534 --> 00:43:35,382
Only ten. There was a demand of 1000. People wanted to

711
00:43:35,398 --> 00:43:38,006
buy it. I was very, very fortunate to be one of the ten picked to

712
00:43:38,030 --> 00:43:41,834
own it. It's six of ten. I've been offered

713
00:43:41,874 --> 00:43:43,894
ridiculous amounts of money for it. But

714
00:43:45,714 --> 00:43:49,214
if FP knew that I sold that watch without his knowledge,

715
00:43:49,794 --> 00:43:53,234
I'd be cut off. I would no longer be invited

716
00:43:53,354 --> 00:43:55,574
back to buy more pieces. And

717
00:43:58,394 --> 00:44:01,674
it's a very personal thing. It's a very, very interesting

718
00:44:01,714 --> 00:44:05,490
relationship between the maker and his collectors. And yet

719
00:44:05,522 --> 00:44:09,316
the value inherent on this piece, I mean, some of these are

720
00:44:09,340 --> 00:44:13,052
selling for a million dollars at auction. Wow. You

721
00:44:13,068 --> 00:44:16,812
know, and you're wearing it around. That's great. I

722
00:44:16,828 --> 00:44:20,068
believe a watch loses its soul if it's not worn. I mean, I know collectors

723
00:44:20,116 --> 00:44:23,348
that keep them in their boxes. I have all the original papers and everything, but

724
00:44:23,476 --> 00:44:26,744
I wear up to three different watches a day. And,

725
00:44:27,204 --> 00:44:30,664
you know, one for the morning, one at noon, one at night.

726
00:44:31,164 --> 00:44:34,068
The only challenge I've got now is my wife. When I come home with another

727
00:44:34,116 --> 00:44:37,862
watch, she says, why? Why? Why did you buy another

728
00:44:37,918 --> 00:44:41,510
watch? You can't even wear the ones you've

729
00:44:41,542 --> 00:44:45,350
got anymore. This is just insane. And I said, you just don't

730
00:44:45,382 --> 00:44:48,046
understand the passion of this. She says, no, I don't. You've got to stop doing

731
00:44:48,070 --> 00:44:51,878
this. It's not a passion. You have a disease. I think we have the same

732
00:44:51,926 --> 00:44:55,314
problem at different levels because I get the same pushback.

733
00:44:56,454 --> 00:45:00,118
You're sick. You're a sick person and you need help. You have to stop

734
00:45:00,166 --> 00:45:03,074
wellness. I got pushed back on the podcast. You know,

735
00:45:04,044 --> 00:45:07,556
that's it. You brought something up earlier, which is very interesting because it is about

736
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:11,372
the story. And I

737
00:45:11,388 --> 00:45:14,972
think doing this podcast in the media, as you understand, and you were in the

738
00:45:14,988 --> 00:45:18,780
business forever and you even had tv stations. I love

739
00:45:18,812 --> 00:45:21,900
it. I love doing it. And I don't care if I'm making money at doing

740
00:45:21,932 --> 00:45:24,548
this podcast or not. I want to do it and I want to meet people

741
00:45:24,596 --> 00:45:27,940
like you, and I want to talk to other winemakers across the world and find

742
00:45:27,972 --> 00:45:31,180
out what they're thinking and what they're doing. And one guy put it the other

743
00:45:31,212 --> 00:45:34,780
day, he says, you know, I've met the most incredible people, tasted the most

744
00:45:34,812 --> 00:45:38,620
incredible wines and had the best food. I would never trade this lifestyle

745
00:45:38,652 --> 00:45:42,468
for anything. And the story behind that is just becoming part of

746
00:45:42,476 --> 00:45:46,300
it. I think I was telling you about this dinner, this tasting

747
00:45:46,332 --> 00:45:49,868
I had for this wedding. And I was sitting there talking to my friends, a

748
00:45:49,876 --> 00:45:53,224
couple of couples there I didn't know. And one of them says,

749
00:45:54,084 --> 00:45:57,882
I heard your podcast on Vuv Clicquot. I go, great. He goes, so I went

750
00:45:57,898 --> 00:46:00,586
out and bought a bottle of gold label and I tried to get my wife

751
00:46:00,610 --> 00:46:02,706
to drink it and she says, why are you drinking champagne? It's in the middle

752
00:46:02,730 --> 00:46:06,210
of the day, or it's like at nighttime. It's not a celebration. But you taught

753
00:46:06,242 --> 00:46:09,490
me through your story of Tilar Mazio's book right

754
00:46:09,522 --> 00:46:13,194
here that this is a very important piece of

755
00:46:13,234 --> 00:46:17,050
business. She was an incredible businesswoman, Barb Nicole. She was an incredible

756
00:46:17,162 --> 00:46:20,962
packager. She's an incredible logistics person. She's an incredible winemaker, she's an

757
00:46:20,978 --> 00:46:24,678
incredible socialite. And there was a really cool story, and that story is

758
00:46:24,686 --> 00:46:27,794
from 1790 or something, but

759
00:46:28,734 --> 00:46:32,550
it created a desire in this person to

760
00:46:32,582 --> 00:46:35,342
go out and buy the wine and go out and buy the watch. To go

761
00:46:35,358 --> 00:46:38,006
out and buy the car. To go out and buy, like, I have a doom

762
00:46:38,030 --> 00:46:41,742
buggy, a 1969 doom buggy Myers makes. I only bought it because when I was

763
00:46:41,758 --> 00:46:44,638
a kid, my uncle took me out in his and I thought, one day I'm

764
00:46:44,646 --> 00:46:47,078
going to own this car. And I finally got to afford it, which is not

765
00:46:47,086 --> 00:46:50,934
an expensive car. But. But it's about the story. It's about what we're

766
00:46:50,974 --> 00:46:54,514
doing. It's about the history of it. And in your case, with the watches,

767
00:46:55,374 --> 00:46:58,990
you can't sell it because you're the owner. The story's going to

768
00:46:59,022 --> 00:47:02,766
be, this was Kevin O'Leary's watch, and he was the only person that got

769
00:47:02,790 --> 00:47:06,302
to buy one of ten. That's an important

770
00:47:06,438 --> 00:47:09,714
auction. It was an auction Phillips had

771
00:47:10,334 --> 00:47:13,966
early in the year for a good cause. And

772
00:47:14,030 --> 00:47:17,786
I'm known for wearing a white, steel, white face daytona

773
00:47:17,810 --> 00:47:21,490
with a red band on shark tank I've had for years. And that

774
00:47:21,522 --> 00:47:22,654
particular watch

775
00:47:25,754 --> 00:47:29,554
the Prince of Monaco asked me put into the auction, and it did very,

776
00:47:29,594 --> 00:47:33,362
very well. But I have to admit, I didn't think about how I'd feel when

777
00:47:33,378 --> 00:47:37,202
I got exit to them. But I'd worn that watch for years.

778
00:47:37,298 --> 00:47:40,210
And so even though Rolex was going to give me a new one, it's not

779
00:47:40,242 --> 00:47:44,062
the same. It's not that watch. Right. And so that went for a

780
00:47:44,078 --> 00:47:47,630
very high price. I'm very proud of it. I'm happy to support the charity,

781
00:47:47,822 --> 00:47:51,478
but I'm never doing that again. I'm not giving up

782
00:47:51,606 --> 00:47:54,590
a watch that I've worn for years. Cause I really felt a part of my

783
00:47:54,622 --> 00:47:57,834
soul was lost there. And your wife will say, it's a disease. See,

784
00:47:59,054 --> 00:48:02,558
that's right. It was really, you know, we're coming out of 50 minutes. I want

785
00:48:02,566 --> 00:48:05,462
to take too much of your time, but I wanted to tell you about two

786
00:48:05,518 --> 00:48:09,110
things, and I want to. I was talking to Mister Spurrier, the great late

787
00:48:09,142 --> 00:48:12,692
Steven Spurrier, and I was telling him about the Les Amis Devin. It used to

788
00:48:12,708 --> 00:48:16,452
be a chapter in here in southern California my father started, and it was a

789
00:48:16,468 --> 00:48:19,940
worldwide group, not like the Chevaliers, but it was an important group for wine

790
00:48:19,972 --> 00:48:23,820
aficionados. It was an important group for the consumer to learn about

791
00:48:23,852 --> 00:48:27,524
wine, to not be duped into Groupon, only type wines,

792
00:48:27,644 --> 00:48:31,264
to hear the stories, to hear the lectures, to have dinners.

793
00:48:31,564 --> 00:48:35,188
And I've garnered the trademark for Les Amy Devant. And I'm going

794
00:48:35,196 --> 00:48:38,866
to resurrect the 501 to re educate the

795
00:48:38,890 --> 00:48:42,370
american palates, the american consumers, on what the wine business is

796
00:48:42,402 --> 00:48:46,154
about. And at the behest of Mister Spurrier, before he passed away,

797
00:48:46,194 --> 00:48:49,986
he says, you must do this. And so I'm going to start that up.

798
00:48:50,170 --> 00:48:53,674
I want to send you this communication on it. I've sort of brainstormed the idea.

799
00:48:53,714 --> 00:48:56,858
What does this thing look like in the virtual world? Is it virtual tastings? Is

800
00:48:56,866 --> 00:49:00,578
it live tastings? Is it dinners? What's going to be involved? But I want

801
00:49:00,586 --> 00:49:03,418
to bounce it off of you since you're

802
00:49:03,586 --> 00:49:07,140
tightly connected to the. The passion of the wine

803
00:49:07,172 --> 00:49:10,516
business. And that's what I want this Leslie event group to

804
00:49:10,540 --> 00:49:13,864
do. So I'm going to expect that in the email.

805
00:49:14,484 --> 00:49:18,148
But the other thing we're doing, it's a great idea. My thing would be start

806
00:49:18,196 --> 00:49:21,708
small in a small geographic region and build it up. I mean,

807
00:49:21,836 --> 00:49:25,420
people want to. Our group, the Chevalier

808
00:49:25,452 --> 00:49:28,756
dutestevant, does a WhatsApp

809
00:49:28,860 --> 00:49:32,500
conversation every night. About what? Everybody. Every

810
00:49:32,532 --> 00:49:35,868
night, we're always sampling each other's lines. Everybody starts with a white and goes into

811
00:49:35,916 --> 00:49:39,632
red for dinner. We're all in the database of knowledge of the different

812
00:49:39,688 --> 00:49:43,352
bridles that are being tried across that group of

813
00:49:43,368 --> 00:49:46,680
80 people every night. I mean, you learn, that's

814
00:49:46,712 --> 00:49:50,528
amazing. If you find a wine from a certain year that

815
00:49:50,576 --> 00:49:54,312
looks bad, everybody go checks their sellers to see how many they've got and

816
00:49:54,328 --> 00:49:58,048
see if there's any. It's a very interesting form of communication. It's a

817
00:49:58,056 --> 00:50:01,736
great idea. It is. It works. I mean, that came out of the pandemic. It's

818
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,880
not going to stop. We're still doing it every night because people really enjoy it.

819
00:50:04,912 --> 00:50:08,216
Yeah, it's great conversation and it's. You can do it from anywhere in the

820
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:12,016
world. I really enjoyed this. This was quite, quite different than what I thought

821
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,736
it would be. It's great. Thank you. The last thing to tell you about is

822
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,472
a very special meeting. My good friend Mark Williamson at Willie's

823
00:50:19,488 --> 00:50:23,216
wine bar in the premier in Paris.

824
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,864
It's a brasserie, if you haven't heard about it. He's been there since the eighties.

825
00:50:26,904 --> 00:50:30,500
He used to work for Steven Spurrier. We're putting together sort of a

826
00:50:30,592 --> 00:50:33,504
soiree, maybe the first quarter next year or the second quarter.

827
00:50:34,084 --> 00:50:37,452
Chefs, winemakers, professionals in the

828
00:50:37,468 --> 00:50:41,164
industry to celebrate Steven Spurrier's life. Just to get together, drink.

829
00:50:41,204 --> 00:50:45,036
And we're calling it magnums at Willys. Some of the great negotiats will

830
00:50:45,060 --> 00:50:48,636
be there, and winemakers of the world and chefs. And I'm

831
00:50:48,660 --> 00:50:52,024
inviting you now. I'll keep you posted if you haven't.

832
00:50:52,364 --> 00:50:56,044
That sounds wonderful. If I may just do a shameless

833
00:50:56,084 --> 00:50:59,740
plug for something that's going to be. Please do. I'm doing a

834
00:50:59,772 --> 00:51:03,548
massive new online platform called Shop Mister Wonderful, where I'm going to

835
00:51:03,556 --> 00:51:07,252
be offering my wines in addition to some other shark take

836
00:51:07,348 --> 00:51:08,424
gourmet products.

837
00:51:10,964 --> 00:51:14,452
Look for it soon. I think it'll be amazing pricing, but I just want to

838
00:51:14,468 --> 00:51:18,180
continue to expand this relationship I have with hundreds of thousands of people who bought

839
00:51:18,212 --> 00:51:21,812
my wines direct from the vineyard. So I want to grow that business

840
00:51:21,868 --> 00:51:25,640
even bigger. Well, you're a trusted source of passion for food

841
00:51:25,672 --> 00:51:29,016
and wine, and I think you'll do well with that. So last, before we get

842
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,800
off, tell me, you know, you don't sound like the

843
00:51:32,832 --> 00:51:36,136
guy on the shark tanks, the mister wonderful, which is sort of a condescending. Not

844
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,920
condescending, but it's sort of an ironic term for the way you treat

845
00:51:39,992 --> 00:51:43,592
sometimes people, and I know that part of that, you don't sound like that person.

846
00:51:43,648 --> 00:51:46,992
So where did Mister wonderful come from? Did they call you

847
00:51:47,008 --> 00:51:50,552
this? Well, we think it's Barbara. In the first season when we're doing

848
00:51:50,608 --> 00:51:54,326
the. You know, we. We obviously started. She said, aren't

849
00:51:54,350 --> 00:51:57,390
you just Mister Wonderful? I've done some aggressive deal. I said, yeah, I am Mister

850
00:51:57,422 --> 00:52:01,126
wonderful. It just stuck. Barbara and I are great friends. We've been doing this

851
00:52:01,150 --> 00:52:04,726
for 13 years together. The only reason she gets the shark tank set on time

852
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:07,314
every year is I buy her a new brew.

853
00:52:11,294 --> 00:52:14,774
That must be a collection by now, then. Yeah, definitely.

854
00:52:14,934 --> 00:52:18,740
He's got the latest model every year. Well,

855
00:52:18,772 --> 00:52:21,812
we'll close on that. Thank you so much for the time today, and I hope

856
00:52:21,828 --> 00:52:24,076
we get to do it again one time. But I will keep it posted on

857
00:52:24,100 --> 00:52:27,756
both Les Ami Devant and as well as the event at Willie's

858
00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:31,356
wine Bar. Thank you very much. Take care, my friend. Cheers. Thank you. Take

859
00:52:31,380 --> 00:52:31,944
care.

860
00:52:40,604 --> 00:52:44,048
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum Carrion. Don't forget to subscribe.

861
00:52:44,076 --> 00:52:47,880
Subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks,

862
00:52:47,992 --> 00:52:50,624
have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.