Jamie Ritchie Has Storied History In Wine And Spirits. Now Is COO Of BlockBar. Crazy Stuff.

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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today about

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to have a conversation with Jamie Ritchie all the way out in England.

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He is the CEO of Blockbar, a

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blockchain product for wine and spirits. Introductions in just

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a moment. Hey, have a listen to Reed Connect. I had him in

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the office about a month ago. What an

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amazingly philosophical approach to winemaking.

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I re listened to the show, which I usually don't like listening to myself, but

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this time I had to take a listen because it was so fascinating. Have listened

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to that as well as Jessica Kogan, just off a

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stint with vintage wine Estates, one of the leading women in digital

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marketing. Now with a company called Connect the Dots, I think you'll find

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her insight into digital marketing. What's going on out on the

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Internet really fascinating. Hey, have a subscribe to the show. Please give me

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a review. If you don't have a good thing to say, don't say it, but

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otherwise subscribe and tell your friends. But want to

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welcome Jamie Richie to the show. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you very

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much for having me, Paul. It's great to be with you. I'm fascinated by your

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history. Jamie was the 32 years with Sotheby's and the

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wine and spirits auction section as well as now

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CEO of what is blockchain

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technology for protecting your asset of wine and spirits. And

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we'll get dig deep into that. But I have to dig into the

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Sotheby's part and the auction part. I mean, like I

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said earlier off camera, I spent most of my adolescence

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with my father standing at auction paddling. I just

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went to the gooding car auction in Amelia Island. I mean, it's just,

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it's just something in your blood. Was that for you as well?

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Yes. Funnily enough, we share that in common because when I was growing

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up, my parents left London when I was four years old

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and they moved into a much bigger house in the country, down in

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Wiltshire. And I was always at the back of some auction rubble.

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My father bought most of all the gardening equipment, so he

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built across tennis court. All the netting and the lining machines came from

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auctions. He had one very good friend who knew a lot

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about the fine arts, one who knew a lot about the decorative arts, and they

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were always buying chests of drawers, pictures.

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So every weekend was dragging them out. So as I was growing

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up, I got interested in wine and spirits,

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mostly wine. And I was working

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the restaurant business and thinking about life

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in the wine business and want to work in fine wine. I was thinking, how

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could I, you know, what were the options for me?

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And so one was a wine merchant, a wine broker, or an auction house.

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And I also wanted to be an actor. When I was growing up in England,

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a failed actor becomes a barrister. So I studied law for a

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bit. And in my book, a failed barrister becomes an auctioneer, where the role

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of acting is just reduced accounting. And so

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I ended up seeing an advertisement for Sothebys and applying for

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it. This is back in 1990, and I applied for the job, and I

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got it, and I was there for 32 years. So a pretty amazing career.

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That's pretty fascinating. We have to rewind a little bit back to the auction

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part, because there's something about the chase and getting under your

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blood, and sometimes it's not about what you're buying, but it's kind of. It's kind

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of about winning the deal. And, you know, I consider it like

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the ultimate in capitalism. You know, if you got the most money, you certainly can

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own it. That. That at that moment. And

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what fascinates me about auctioning in general, and I don't want that, it's going to

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tie into the wine and spirit side, is, you know, you got to inspect

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the stuff. You got to know what, what you're talking about.

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I tell my son in laws. Well, my son in law, one of my son

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in laws, insisted that this Rolex watch that was up at a local

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auction, which is actually for movie props. It's a company that

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only auctions movie props. And he was convinced that this Rolex

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was. Was real, even though the listing said prop

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Rolex watch, and he bought it for

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$341 and it's real.

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That is fantastic. One of the great stories, you

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know. Yeah. Mistakes happen. I mean, the wonderful thing with wine auctions

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is that, yeah, the biggest sheer volume and the fact that it needs to be

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temperature controlled is that we don't actually, we didn't at

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Sotheby showcase any of the wines and spirits there. They were all sitting in a

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warehouse. You know, it's in temperature control, ready to be dispatched.

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So what it did mean is that you had to be super careful about all

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the inspection process, making sure everything was. Yeah. Had

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the correct provenance, was authentic and in good

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condition to drink. So we didn't sell things that we didn't believe were

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in good condition to consume as well. Let's peel that back a little bit, because

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there's a lot of fraud right now. I mean, somebody just told me the other

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day that somebody had created pallets of

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fraudulent yellowtail. I don't know why you would do that.

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The wine's only like 349 anyway. But

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there's a lot of awareness these days and a lot of conversation

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about the provenance of a wine that you buy. And there's a lot

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of private sellers up for auction. I went to appraise one the other day

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that that was completely trashed. Even

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had stickers on their petrus for 1995 from Trader

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Joe's many, many years ago. So

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how does Sothebys verify the provenance?

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And you said, use the term good condition to drink. I mean, that seems

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like a tall order. Well, yeah. So in the secondary

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market, yeah, there's obviously you

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try and understand where the collector is, what their collecting process has been.

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And once you've had some experience in it, you can pretty much figure out if

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things have been stored well or not. And then you can

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obviously physically visit the cellar, the location where the

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wines are, to check it out and verify the conditions of the wines. And

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then you obviously, on the condition, you're matching up and

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authenticity, you're matching up the provenance

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with the authenticity. So on authenticity, you're looking at the

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capsule, the bottle, the color of the liquid, the

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sediment, the label, and you're making

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sure that everything matches according to the story of the

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provenance as well. And so, yeah, an auction house can't

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authenticate anything, but they can go through the process

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to ensure that they sell it under their terms of

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guarantee. And the terms of guarantee is obviously validating. What?

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Yeah, the vintage, the year, etcetera, and the fact that obviously,

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it's in good condition. So on the condition side, you can get a bottle that

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looks absolutely perfect from the outside and yet has been stored too

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warm and has gently been cooked. And so generally

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sampling from different areas around the cellar will give you a good

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indication of the condition of the wines. So

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I think I wrote on some talking points. Essentially, we were talking about Rudy

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Kirwan, who was released from jail recently, is back in

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Thailand or Indonesia, where he's from notorious. In fact, he was

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right here in my neighborhood, by the way. He was just down the street. He

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was. And he's now doing events, apparently in St. Singapore, Hong Kong,

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Taiwan, Taipei, etcetera. Well, the other day,

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somebody sent me a picture. It's a real estate developer friend of mine. He was

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in Singapore or Shanghai, I can't

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remember, and was talking about it. And the

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guy says, oh, I know him. And they had dinner with him the next night

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and he said his palate was phenomenal, but let's

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not want to talk about Rudy. He was,

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you know, when they found his house here, they found paper and they found corks,

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they found recipes. And I'm thinking, okay, so

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if you sell a 1945 Romani

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conti, a DRC, and you open it, do

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people even open these things? So they just keep. Oh yeah, I mean, I think,

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yeah. So you're referencing a bottle which is

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sold for the highest price ever, which was the Romney Condy

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45, which sold for

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558,000. I was a happy auctioneer on that day.

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And so, yeah, that one actually. Yeah. Why was it so valuable? Was,

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yeah, obviously it's an incredible wine with a very,

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very rare provenance,

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but it was very rare production. So tiny,

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tiny production from a great vintage. But the reason for the value of that bottle

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was actually because

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the wine came from, directly from Robert

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Drouins Seller and Robert Drouin.

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The Drouin family used to be

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the agent for de mes de la Romney Conti throughout France and Brussels and

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Belgium. And so the bottle literally moved from Domain de la

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Romilly Conti, 5 miles down the road to the Durand family cellar, and

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rested there all its life. So that gave it, that province,

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gave it a special value in terms of,

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of prestige and condition. Would

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that happen, by the way, just off topic of a second, would that happen, for

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instance, from a wine from the cell of Tour d'Argent,

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it's such a direct relationship from

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manufacturer to retailer or restaurant.

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Would the seller of tour d'argent carry such pedigree along with

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it? Sure. I mean, I think wherever you have such

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special problems, I would say that the problems from Robert Droin,

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Seller, in the proximity to Romney Conti and one owner would

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be almost the highest level you could get. But de

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la Tour d'Argent, for sure, if you were selling some treasures from that seller that

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had always rested there and gone directly from producer to their sellers,

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then you have a similar sort of provenance, and then you've also got celebrity

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provenance, which can add value as well. It's

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interesting. 45 DRC

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$558,000 and you

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know, Burgundy was not as interrupted during the

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war by the Nazis as St. Bordeaux was, was it? I think it

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was not kept alone, but it was.

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Well, in fact, funnily enough, I mean, yeah, there

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was obviously, there are stories on both sides, but Maurice

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Drouin, who was Robert Drouen's father, was

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actually, he donated some

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vineyards to the Hospice de Beaune later on in his life.

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And the reason he did that was because during the war, he actually went through

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the tunnels of the Droia cellars that connected to the hospices de

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bone. And the people at the Hospice de Beaune took

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care of him while during the occupation

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of bone. So they bricked up all the cellars and put

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false walls in there. And so, as a thank

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you for really saving his life and looking after him, he then

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donated vineyards to the hospice de bone. So it's an interesting story

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on the relationship there.

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This is what the show's about. And we're going to get to the value of

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blockbar and how, in contemporary times, we're going to be able to

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protect the provenance of a wine. But we're going back to some pretty

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interesting parts and history of wine. I had Mae

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Elian Lanka song on the show at 98 years old, telling the stories,

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and I really think that's what wine's about. I think that this

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story of Durand, in fact, adds to the provenance and

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adds to the terroir of the wine, because these stories

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are rolled forward by generations. And though

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you're not going to taste something specifically in a wine, you

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have to believe that the influence of the stories in this history are

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reflected in the winemaker's philosophy and attitude toward

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what has happened. Oh, for sure. And I think when you do taste

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these old wines, your memory goes back. It's like looking at a painting in

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a museum. Your mind goes back to the conditions of that

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time. And so you think about how the vines were cultivated in

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1945 or before in the 1920s, and

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what equipment were they using in the vineyards, and how about the health of the

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vineyards? And what was the yield in those days compared to what a yield

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would be today. And so I think it's a really interesting

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historical lens to look at

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as. To look at how these wines were produced and how they age so

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brilliantly. And yet these very old wines are still

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enjoyable, consumable and fresh today if they've been stored

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well. Am I wrong in saying

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what I think? I think the bordelaise came up with

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copper sulfate, like, what, in the forties or early late thirties or something.

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Is it safe to say, though, the wines, particularly a burgundy

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of those vintages, let's just say, you know, the mid 20th century,

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were pretty much organic, or pretty

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much. By the way, I think all wine was pretty

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much organic in those days because they were only

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using natural ingredients in the vineyards. So and so. Yeah,

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where I think they went to in the seventies. Yeah,

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obviously the seventies was challenging period, because every economy

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was struggling and it was very tough times. So

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a lot of wine wasn't selling for very much money, and everyone

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had to cut costs, and they cut costs on their vineyard treatments, on their

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labor, on their corks, wherever they could

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to produce wine. So really, the seventies was a low point. But one of the

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interesting things, if you sort of pull forward to today, is, I actually think

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that if you're $20 today,

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you get a much, much better wine that's ever been produced before. And so

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the health of the vineyards, the knowledge of vineyard

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management, of getting good fruit into the winery, and

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of vinification, it actually means that today, the

231
00:14:09,672 --> 00:14:12,964
$20 bottle of wine is a lot better than the $20 bottle before.

232
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And the value of wine today,

233
00:14:18,584 --> 00:14:22,256
all of us are drinking way better than anyone did before us. So

234
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,776
that's a fascinating question that I often ask winemakers. They're here

235
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,248
because they, and I don't like to talk about soil and

236
00:14:29,296 --> 00:14:32,608
micro exchange of nutrients at the taproots. I mean, that's not

237
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interesting for the listener. I mean, if you are to visualize.

238
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But what is the end

239
00:14:39,744 --> 00:14:43,384
game like? We're going through these processes where we try all these

240
00:14:43,424 --> 00:14:47,248
methodologies. And so the question is, what's the end game? Are we trying to

241
00:14:47,336 --> 00:14:50,760
produce the best wine we can produce from the terroir? Are we trying to produce

242
00:14:50,792 --> 00:14:54,544
a wine that has a certain character? Are we trying to continue to

243
00:14:54,584 --> 00:14:58,376
extract from what we're given? Or are we just trying to

244
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,120
present what that time and place meant at the time that they

245
00:15:02,152 --> 00:15:05,736
did it? But just. You're saying now the quality of

246
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,200
wine has gone up for the value based on these techniques?

247
00:15:09,392 --> 00:15:12,832
Yes, I think certainly that's the case. And I

248
00:15:12,848 --> 00:15:16,482
think what are you trying to produce is largely dictated

249
00:15:16,608 --> 00:15:20,174
the person producing it. So, yeah, some people definitely want

250
00:15:20,214 --> 00:15:22,274
to produce the most,

251
00:15:24,814 --> 00:15:28,542
the most authentic wine from that particular terroir in

252
00:15:28,558 --> 00:15:32,262
that given year? And that's certainly the

253
00:15:32,278 --> 00:15:35,454
case. I think other people want to put their

254
00:15:35,494 --> 00:15:38,714
imprimatur upon the wine

255
00:15:39,054 --> 00:15:42,596
and want to make a style of wine that maybe overrides the tehois.

256
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:46,032
So I think the person making the wine and the style of wine and what

257
00:15:46,048 --> 00:15:49,544
they're trying to achieve is really the human

258
00:15:49,624 --> 00:15:53,456
element in it. And obviously, from my perspective, I think the

259
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,208
greatest wines are a reflection of a given grape variety

260
00:15:57,256 --> 00:16:00,640
or great blend of grape varieties from a specific

261
00:16:00,712 --> 00:16:04,056
vineyard sites in a given year. And the

262
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,840
transparency of that is, I think, the finest thing

263
00:16:07,952 --> 00:16:11,350
about. About great wine, I think

264
00:16:11,542 --> 00:16:15,114
you might have the opposing views,

265
00:16:15,414 --> 00:16:18,990
the contrasting views that I might have, which is, I have this very romantic

266
00:16:19,022 --> 00:16:22,734
viewpoint of wine and what it should be. And then I have the realization

267
00:16:22,814 --> 00:16:26,526
that it's consumer driven and we have to produce what people want to buy. And

268
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:30,126
that has created all kinds of interesting products

269
00:16:30,270 --> 00:16:34,094
on the shelf these days in various packaging forms and

270
00:16:34,174 --> 00:16:37,896
flavor profiles. But all in all, when it's all said

271
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,440
and done, eventually that glass of wine has to do what it's done for

272
00:16:41,552 --> 00:16:45,376
six to seven to 10,000 years, depending who you ask. And that is,

273
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,684
you know, emote some to tell you something.

274
00:16:49,744 --> 00:16:53,504
Exactly. And, yeah, I mean, I think my children are younger.

275
00:16:53,584 --> 00:16:57,400
They're 23 and 20. And, yeah, I'm sort of telling

276
00:16:57,432 --> 00:17:01,128
them that every day, every glass of wine is something to be

277
00:17:01,216 --> 00:17:04,864
enjoyed. There's something to be learned from it as something to be shared

278
00:17:05,964 --> 00:17:09,444
and something to be enjoyed. And it's one of the most. When I was 18

279
00:17:09,564 --> 00:17:13,236
and thinking about getting into the wine business, I figured out that if I drank

280
00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:16,284
a bottle of wine every day and lived till I was 75, I'd drink 20,000

281
00:17:16,324 --> 00:17:19,708
bottles of wine. I was pretty sure I was going to drink those

282
00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:22,788
20,000 bottles of wine, so I figured I might as well learn something about it

283
00:17:22,796 --> 00:17:26,156
and make them enjoy experiences, and that's worked out really well for

284
00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:30,024
me. Yeah, it's actually really funny, because this show started because

285
00:17:30,344 --> 00:17:34,064
I sat in the tasting room for 35 years at 09:00 in the morning every

286
00:17:34,104 --> 00:17:37,456
Tuesday until 02:00 unless I was out of town or sick.

287
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,176
And these winemakers from all over the world are coming in from Burgundy, from

288
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,912
champagne, from Bordeaux, Napa, and they're telling me stories, you know,

289
00:17:44,928 --> 00:17:48,416
across the tasting table. I'm like, this is really silly. We should just open a

290
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,168
microphone and tell the same stories over again. And that's the birth. The birth,

291
00:17:52,216 --> 00:17:55,972
the birth of the show to tell the story. We're kind

292
00:17:55,988 --> 00:17:59,744
of an opposite spectrum of our careers. I want to be an actor now,

293
00:18:00,444 --> 00:18:04,180
so I'm actually going to acting school. Really? That's

294
00:18:04,212 --> 00:18:07,948
fantastic. I love that. And voice acting. And, you know,

295
00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:11,740
I don't know how I had time to work until I sold the

296
00:18:11,772 --> 00:18:15,588
company. Now I don't have time to do anything. But anyways, I thought that

297
00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:19,412
was anecdotal. This is. How long do

298
00:18:19,428 --> 00:18:22,560
you think? Well, first of all, let's ask this question.

299
00:18:22,632 --> 00:18:26,136
Sotheby's, how confident, on a

300
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,920
percentage basis were you that virtually every wine you sold through

301
00:18:29,952 --> 00:18:33,004
there was what it was purported to be?

302
00:18:34,184 --> 00:18:37,244
I mean, I think we were very draconian. So

303
00:18:38,544 --> 00:18:42,392
if we didn't believe something was either authentic or in

304
00:18:42,408 --> 00:18:46,124
good condition, and we had any doubts about it. We did not sell it.

305
00:18:47,214 --> 00:18:50,982
Are there some things that slipped through the cracks? Yes,

306
00:18:51,038 --> 00:18:54,806
I'm sure there were. There were very, very few. And,

307
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:58,718
yeah, I would. Yeah. If you're an auction house

308
00:18:58,766 --> 00:19:02,494
that is trying to sell wines that

309
00:19:02,534 --> 00:19:06,190
are with verifiable provenance, that

310
00:19:06,222 --> 00:19:09,830
are authentic and they're in good condition, you can have a

311
00:19:09,862 --> 00:19:13,514
very, very high success rate in the 99 plus percent.

312
00:19:14,874 --> 00:19:18,242
Yeah. And obviously, if you have any doubts, you try and

313
00:19:18,258 --> 00:19:21,586
verify the problems or

314
00:19:21,610 --> 00:19:25,330
authenticity. And if you're able to verify it, then you shouldn't sell it.

315
00:19:25,442 --> 00:19:29,194
Now, not every auction house or every fine wine merchant has the same

316
00:19:29,234 --> 00:19:32,954
approach. Some people have an approach which is, hey, look, you're sold as is.

317
00:19:32,994 --> 00:19:35,042
I'm just going to sell it, and if there's a problem, I'll deal with it

318
00:19:35,058 --> 00:19:38,602
later. Yeah. That's a different approach to the

319
00:19:38,618 --> 00:19:42,338
auction business, and that's certainly what some people do. So, I mean, yeah,

320
00:19:42,426 --> 00:19:45,572
from my perspective, yeah, I was, in my days at

321
00:19:45,588 --> 00:19:49,404
Sotheby's, we did everything we could to sell

322
00:19:49,484 --> 00:19:52,224
only authentic wines in good condition.

323
00:19:53,324 --> 00:19:56,224
We went to a house in New Jersey to look at

324
00:19:57,044 --> 00:20:00,828
Eisenhower paintings. I

325
00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:04,484
mean, this guy must have had $50 million worth of paintings, and he was probably

326
00:20:04,524 --> 00:20:08,332
the United States preeminent collector of the painting, of

327
00:20:08,428 --> 00:20:12,072
the painter and. But he invited, I think it was

328
00:20:12,088 --> 00:20:15,232
the north american chairman of Sotheby's or Christie's, I can't remember, I think was

329
00:20:15,248 --> 00:20:18,968
Sotheby's to be the keynote speaker of this dinner. He.

330
00:20:19,016 --> 00:20:22,696
We went to, to sort of support the fact that, yes, these

331
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,080
are probably authentic, or they are authentic, and they were bought through the channels that

332
00:20:26,112 --> 00:20:29,312
we would consider the provenance and we would consider the

333
00:20:29,448 --> 00:20:32,244
availability, what the painting was.

334
00:20:32,584 --> 00:20:36,116
And in the same time, a painting

335
00:20:36,260 --> 00:20:39,164
from the same artist came up at a local auction house here at a very

336
00:20:39,204 --> 00:20:42,972
reputable auction house. And the auctioneer, who's a friend of

337
00:20:42,988 --> 00:20:46,364
mine for years, you know, he couldn't and

338
00:20:46,404 --> 00:20:50,224
wouldn't necessarily authenticate the

339
00:20:50,724 --> 00:20:54,476
painter, the painting itself. He just

340
00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:58,044
said this. We're under the impression that's what it is. It came from this estate.

341
00:20:58,084 --> 00:21:01,780
And that's all I can guarantee is the provenance or

342
00:21:01,812 --> 00:21:05,638
the authenticity of the painting. When I brought that up with the

343
00:21:05,766 --> 00:21:09,414
investor in New Jersey, I told him, he goes,

344
00:21:09,574 --> 00:21:13,234
I didn't even finish. He says it's a terrible fake.

345
00:21:14,094 --> 00:21:17,766
So he already knew across the country that this

346
00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:20,502
painting was for sale, was coming to auction, and he already knew it was a

347
00:21:20,518 --> 00:21:24,350
fake. Did you have that kind of insight when you

348
00:21:24,382 --> 00:21:28,158
were bringing items into review or to understand, or that. I

349
00:21:28,166 --> 00:21:31,890
mean, how many 45, for instance, 1945 drcs are there?

350
00:21:32,042 --> 00:21:35,490
But was there any sort of. I mean, I mean, yeah, there are. There are

351
00:21:35,522 --> 00:21:39,114
obvious fakes which one can see with a naked eye. Some. One

352
00:21:39,154 --> 00:21:42,530
can, some can, yeah, you can see 10ft away. And

353
00:21:42,562 --> 00:21:45,974
obviously some you use a loop to look at the label

354
00:21:47,434 --> 00:21:51,010
and some are very easy. And generally

355
00:21:51,042 --> 00:21:54,762
speaking, when you get counterfeit wines, you know, unless

356
00:21:54,818 --> 00:21:58,414
it's a great collector who's perhaps been given a few bottles by other people,

357
00:21:59,424 --> 00:22:03,176
they tend to source wines from a concentrated number of people. And

358
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,024
so if some people source wines from people

359
00:22:07,064 --> 00:22:10,444
who are selling counterfeit wines, you'd find an abundance of them.

360
00:22:10,824 --> 00:22:13,844
And that was relatively easy to spot.

361
00:22:14,344 --> 00:22:18,040
Obviously, if you've got a great collection of authentic wines with a few scattered

362
00:22:18,072 --> 00:22:21,552
in, more difficult to do them

363
00:22:21,648 --> 00:22:24,244
until you do the bottle by bottle inventory.

364
00:22:24,984 --> 00:22:28,480
But you can normally spot where the counterfeits are. Obviously,

365
00:22:28,512 --> 00:22:32,216
counterfeits got increasingly more sophisticated today, but it's

366
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,088
the conversation between the provenance, where the wines have been bought from

367
00:22:36,176 --> 00:22:39,792
and sourced from, the appearance of the wines, the story about the

368
00:22:39,808 --> 00:22:43,184
wine, the behavior of the collector. So it does

369
00:22:43,224 --> 00:22:46,520
become pretty obvious to a seasoned

370
00:22:46,552 --> 00:22:49,724
professional that what you're dealing with, what to look out for

371
00:22:50,084 --> 00:22:53,852
and to avoid those issues. So I would say, yes, there's, you

372
00:22:53,868 --> 00:22:57,572
know, it's. Yeah, for a seasoned professional, it's

373
00:22:57,708 --> 00:23:01,172
not that difficult. Is it the same type of buyer that

374
00:23:01,188 --> 00:23:04,908
would collect? And I've said this before on the show,

375
00:23:04,996 --> 00:23:08,404
I just learned that I'm a collector because when the gentleman bought my

376
00:23:08,444 --> 00:23:12,244
company, he did not buy all the stuff I had collected during COVID And I

377
00:23:12,244 --> 00:23:16,036
have some wonderful grand cruz and some classified growth Bordeaux and all kinds of

378
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,508
really cool stuff. And so I had to find a home for it because I

379
00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:22,854
don't. Never had a seller at my house, I had a warehouse full of wine.

380
00:23:23,274 --> 00:23:27,106
But is it the same kind of buyer that might show up

381
00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:30,738
at a Sotheby's wine, the spirits auction, that would utilize

382
00:23:30,826 --> 00:23:34,014
blockbar to authenticate, or at least to

383
00:23:34,434 --> 00:23:38,106
have confidence in the provenance of the wine and

384
00:23:38,130 --> 00:23:41,534
spirit. So I think that's an interesting question.

385
00:23:42,954 --> 00:23:46,570
The buyers are skewing younger because

386
00:23:46,762 --> 00:23:50,362
every. Every seller of fine wine and

387
00:23:50,378 --> 00:23:53,134
spirits needs younger buyers. And so

388
00:23:53,994 --> 00:23:57,514
blockbusters. One of the reasons why I joined blockbar was

389
00:23:57,554 --> 00:24:01,394
because I dealt with problems, authenticity and condition issues every

390
00:24:01,434 --> 00:24:03,774
day for 32 years. And so

391
00:24:04,634 --> 00:24:07,054
Blockbuster's model is to use blockchain

392
00:24:08,114 --> 00:24:11,454
to provide a guaranteed

393
00:24:12,194 --> 00:24:15,530
chain. Blockbar only sells directly from producer to

394
00:24:15,562 --> 00:24:19,282
consumer and is the direct link between the producer and the

395
00:24:19,298 --> 00:24:22,930
consumer. So using blockchain is validated that

396
00:24:23,042 --> 00:24:26,586
the bottles, the case, the cask, comes directly from the producer

397
00:24:26,770 --> 00:24:30,450
and it gets sold directly to the consumer. And then, because blockchain is

398
00:24:30,482 --> 00:24:34,306
immutable and you can add onto it every time there's a transaction. So if

399
00:24:34,330 --> 00:24:38,114
someone gifts a bottle or a case or a cask, or sells it

400
00:24:38,194 --> 00:24:41,846
to another person, then that transaction is recorded on the blockchain.

401
00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:44,434
And while the bottled case costs remain

402
00:24:47,254 --> 00:24:50,838
in the ecosystem of blockbar, then obviously there's guaranteed

403
00:24:50,886 --> 00:24:54,206
provenance and traceability and transparency back to the

404
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:57,918
producer. So in terms of who's interested in that, I think

405
00:24:57,966 --> 00:25:01,154
everyone's interested in it. I think, obviously,

406
00:25:01,574 --> 00:25:04,726
the people who already have a lot of wine and already have wine in their

407
00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:08,526
cellars, maybe they're towards the

408
00:25:08,550 --> 00:25:12,338
end of their collecting life and would be less inclined to use blockbuster. I

409
00:25:12,346 --> 00:25:16,130
think it particularly appeals to the younger collectors who are digitally

410
00:25:16,162 --> 00:25:19,810
savvy, who don't

411
00:25:19,842 --> 00:25:23,330
necessarily want to store their own collections of wines and spirits,

412
00:25:23,442 --> 00:25:26,734
because they don't know necessary where they live in two or five years time.

413
00:25:28,194 --> 00:25:32,002
And for them, we take care of all the storage and

414
00:25:32,018 --> 00:25:35,454
the insurance and the security of that,

415
00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:39,386
and then they have a guaranteed traceability on the provenance and

416
00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:42,814
the authenticity. And so I think it's

417
00:25:43,554 --> 00:25:47,282
90% of our audience and 70% of our buyers, and

418
00:25:47,418 --> 00:25:51,066
millennial and Gen Z. So, yeah, I think it

419
00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:54,922
is. There's definitely a crossover in the marketplace. And

420
00:25:54,938 --> 00:25:58,506
I think as things go forward, if you look at Bordeaux on

421
00:25:58,530 --> 00:26:01,894
Premiere Bordeaux Futures, anything sold in cask,

422
00:26:02,714 --> 00:26:06,530
the blockchain and NFT model is a lot more efficient.

423
00:26:06,562 --> 00:26:10,404
It gives liquidity from the day one. If you were to buy through a traditional

424
00:26:10,444 --> 00:26:14,036
channel Bordeaux one, primo futures, essentially, you are

425
00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:17,564
illiquid for the first two years until you take physical delivery of the wines.

426
00:26:17,724 --> 00:26:21,468
Under the blockbuster model, you buying an NFT, which is redeemable for

427
00:26:21,476 --> 00:26:25,196
the wines, and that NFT can be traded the next day, it can be gifted

428
00:26:25,220 --> 00:26:28,884
the next day, etcetera. So it provides liquidity

429
00:26:28,924 --> 00:26:32,724
in that process. You can have fun with selling barrels and costs

430
00:26:32,764 --> 00:26:36,396
and fractionalizing them, and further fractionalizing them until they're

431
00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:40,188
bottled, and then converting the nfts for the cost

432
00:26:40,316 --> 00:26:43,772
into bottles. So you can have a lot of fun with gamification and the

433
00:26:43,788 --> 00:26:47,452
evolution of it. And so I

434
00:26:47,468 --> 00:26:51,212
think it obviously appeals to a younger, digitally savvy

435
00:26:51,268 --> 00:26:55,036
audience. But for me, I've just moved my wines from New

436
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:57,984
York down to Florida. I relocated to Miami

437
00:26:58,564 --> 00:27:02,332
and I now physically had to move my wines down here and now

438
00:27:02,348 --> 00:27:05,812
I need to physically go through them because I won't keep them all. I'll sell

439
00:27:05,868 --> 00:27:09,684
some and I'll definitely consume some and I'll move some wines

440
00:27:09,724 --> 00:27:13,572
around to different places, but I have to physically do that. I

441
00:27:13,588 --> 00:27:17,180
would much prefer to do it through my phone or through my

442
00:27:17,212 --> 00:27:20,704
laptop. And so I think it definitely appeals to

443
00:27:21,604 --> 00:27:24,864
an audience who wants the security and convenience

444
00:27:25,924 --> 00:27:29,556
of buying wines and spirits. Obviously, it's not for bottles that are going to be

445
00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:33,252
consumed tonight, but it is for bottles that can be collected

446
00:27:33,268 --> 00:27:34,944
and consumed at a later date.

447
00:27:37,284 --> 00:27:41,004
Just in itself. The idea of NFT, and I think you probably

448
00:27:41,084 --> 00:27:44,516
have arrived at the fact that baby boomers like

449
00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:48,236
myself may not even understand what you're talking about, that the idea of

450
00:27:48,260 --> 00:27:52,092
blockchain is a digital cloud that no one really gets. I get

451
00:27:52,108 --> 00:27:54,104
it. I understand what it is, but

452
00:27:55,604 --> 00:27:59,124
it's also yours. I mean, you've got so many pieces of moving parts.

453
00:27:59,284 --> 00:28:03,020
Consumption's down amongst millennials and gen zs for alcohol and

454
00:28:03,052 --> 00:28:06,730
fine wine, but you've found a niche that they understand, so this

455
00:28:06,762 --> 00:28:09,866
might be very good for them. I think it's a great idea,

456
00:28:09,970 --> 00:28:11,774
personally, but,

457
00:28:13,434 --> 00:28:16,850
yeah, the idea of NFT and blockchain is probably foreign to most

458
00:28:16,882 --> 00:28:20,666
people. Yes. I mean, well, I'm 63.

459
00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:24,546
I'm a boomer. I'm 60, not 63 yet. I'm born in

460
00:28:24,570 --> 00:28:25,414
63.

461
00:28:29,714 --> 00:28:32,786
I've easily understood the platform for

462
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:35,854
blockbuster when it first came out when I was at Sotheby's.

463
00:28:36,234 --> 00:28:39,810
And I have a digital wallet. Nothing is intimidating.

464
00:28:39,882 --> 00:28:43,370
It's actually very easy to use. We also take credit

465
00:28:43,402 --> 00:28:47,014
cards and they accept credit card work,

466
00:28:47,394 --> 00:28:50,930
transfer payments. So it's really not that

467
00:28:50,962 --> 00:28:54,594
confusing. The blockchain provides the

468
00:28:54,634 --> 00:28:58,014
record, the ledger, which is immutable. The NFT

469
00:28:58,674 --> 00:29:02,244
has a smart contract attached to it which enables secure, fast

470
00:29:02,434 --> 00:29:06,264
transactions, and it acts as a token, which

471
00:29:06,304 --> 00:29:10,120
is that token can be gifted, it can

472
00:29:10,152 --> 00:29:13,984
be sold, or you can redeem it and you get the physical goods. So every

473
00:29:14,024 --> 00:29:17,784
NFT we sell is asset backed, so the value of the NFT is the asset

474
00:29:17,824 --> 00:29:21,432
behind it, so the bottle decays the cask. We don't sell any

475
00:29:21,488 --> 00:29:25,176
NFTs that are not, that are just digitally native and

476
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,040
that's where they've been sort of criticized. So, yeah, I think

477
00:29:29,072 --> 00:29:32,838
from my perspective, yeah, it is a new direct from

478
00:29:33,006 --> 00:29:36,854
producer consumer channel that has some

479
00:29:36,894 --> 00:29:40,394
benefits, not just in liquidity and the traceability

480
00:29:41,614 --> 00:29:45,102
about it. Essentially, if you look at someone like Berry Brothers and Rudd in the

481
00:29:45,118 --> 00:29:48,870
UK, they've been selling wine since 1698. And

482
00:29:48,982 --> 00:29:52,230
you could be buying your Bordeaux futures or on premiere through

483
00:29:52,262 --> 00:29:55,878
them all. What we're really doing to that process is

484
00:29:55,926 --> 00:29:59,544
adding, you know, guaranteed provenance, authenticity and traceability

485
00:30:00,124 --> 00:30:03,828
and transparency to the process. You look at Sherry Lehman,

486
00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:07,444
the wine merchant in New York, that, sadly, no

487
00:30:07,484 --> 00:30:11,084
more. The buyers who are most

488
00:30:11,124 --> 00:30:14,892
disappointed in that were the ones who bought borrower futures from

489
00:30:14,908 --> 00:30:18,684
the 1516 1718 vintage and never

490
00:30:18,724 --> 00:30:22,500
received their wines. That wouldn't happen with a blockchain model. So I think

491
00:30:22,532 --> 00:30:25,972
there are definite benefits to it. And there's an audience which is

492
00:30:25,988 --> 00:30:29,508
growing. One of the things you mentioned, which was about

493
00:30:29,596 --> 00:30:33,100
the millennials and Gen Z consuming less, I think that is definitely

494
00:30:33,132 --> 00:30:36,660
true. Certainly less than the boomer generation. There's more

495
00:30:36,692 --> 00:30:40,516
moderation, there's more abstinence, there's more alternatives with

496
00:30:40,620 --> 00:30:44,388
marijuana, mushrooms, low and no, etcetera. And so

497
00:30:44,516 --> 00:30:47,548
I think every wine and spirits producer really

498
00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:51,396
wants to reach the millennial Gen

499
00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:54,676
Z audience because they're going to need many more of them to participate in the

500
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:58,406
audience because they are going to consume less of wine and spirits.

501
00:30:58,460 --> 00:31:01,254
So I think the audience is very, very attractive

502
00:31:01,874 --> 00:31:05,614
to every producer of high quality wine and spirits.

503
00:31:06,274 --> 00:31:09,934
I think that, like I said earlier on the show, that

504
00:31:12,154 --> 00:31:15,674
consumption ebbs and flows. I mean, we're in this process of non

505
00:31:15,714 --> 00:31:18,858
alcoholic, which I don't understand. I've tasted some. They're

506
00:31:18,946 --> 00:31:22,614
palatable. I don't understand why you bother, but that's just me.

507
00:31:23,034 --> 00:31:26,514
Canned wines, they're working

508
00:31:27,094 --> 00:31:30,878
at Cornell University on extending the life of the food grade lining

509
00:31:30,926 --> 00:31:34,074
for a can. And so I'm not sure what value that has.

510
00:31:34,774 --> 00:31:37,726
I think it ebbs and flows. It always has. When I was stocking my dad's

511
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:41,574
shelves in the seventies, we had one point five s of Gallo

512
00:31:41,614 --> 00:31:45,270
Rhine wine in red burgundy. That was hot. Then

513
00:31:45,342 --> 00:31:49,062
we had wine coolers, and then we had Boone's farm. And it

514
00:31:49,078 --> 00:31:52,736
just ebbs and flows. We're just going through those different cycles.

515
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,424
And I do believe that the millennials and the Gen zs and anybody after

516
00:31:56,464 --> 00:32:00,224
them will eventually land on this concept, that there's something

517
00:32:00,264 --> 00:32:03,944
very valuable to the proper glass of wine, an honest

518
00:32:03,984 --> 00:32:07,760
glass of wine and an honest scotch, or properly made

519
00:32:07,792 --> 00:32:11,064
bourbon that will transcend all of the sort of

520
00:32:11,104 --> 00:32:14,884
social, you know, irregularities that go on in our industry.

521
00:32:15,864 --> 00:32:19,546
But how does, you know, you said something very

522
00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:23,226
interesting. Because I just saw on Netflix or something, this story

523
00:32:23,290 --> 00:32:26,882
about this Northern California wine shop. I had not heard this story before.

524
00:32:26,978 --> 00:32:30,570
Probably grouped in the Rudy type things and the Sausalito warehouse

525
00:32:30,602 --> 00:32:34,386
burning and those things where he was selling out of a shop,

526
00:32:34,450 --> 00:32:38,122
had a wine shop, and he was getting money for all kinds of on

527
00:32:38,138 --> 00:32:41,586
Premier Bordeaux and all kinds of futures on other wines

528
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:45,102
and never buying them. This would completely

529
00:32:45,158 --> 00:32:48,542
circumvent that problem. Right. Once you get this

530
00:32:48,678 --> 00:32:52,074
NFT, you own that wine, it exists.

531
00:32:53,174 --> 00:32:56,862
How does that bottle start? Are you getting it right from the supplier and the

532
00:32:56,878 --> 00:33:00,574
manufacturer? Yes, we're only producer direct to consumer,

533
00:33:00,614 --> 00:33:04,390
so every single bottle comes directly from

534
00:33:04,422 --> 00:33:07,990
the producer and the NFT is minted from the producer's

535
00:33:08,022 --> 00:33:11,738
wallet. So. And then as soon as it is. So

536
00:33:11,786 --> 00:33:15,410
if it's in bottled, we receive our warehouse and we store it. If it is

537
00:33:15,442 --> 00:33:19,290
in cask or barrel, then the producer stores it

538
00:33:19,362 --> 00:33:23,050
at the winery or distillery until it's bottled and then we take possession of it.

539
00:33:23,162 --> 00:33:26,930
But because it's producer direct, then no producer is going to work

540
00:33:26,962 --> 00:33:30,634
with us if we're not paying our bills and doing an honest job. So.

541
00:33:30,714 --> 00:33:34,546
And so you have that guarantee that it is direct from producer, so

542
00:33:34,610 --> 00:33:38,444
it fixes the provenance and authenticity issues and the fact

543
00:33:38,484 --> 00:33:41,908
that it's physically available. And so,

544
00:33:41,956 --> 00:33:45,500
yes, I think you're referring to a business. It was called premier crew.

545
00:33:45,692 --> 00:33:48,464
Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Which was. Yeah, which

546
00:33:49,604 --> 00:33:53,180
they were, unfortunately, did not deliver on a lot of wine

547
00:33:53,292 --> 00:33:56,944
at the end of their lifespan. But that wouldn't have.

548
00:33:58,444 --> 00:34:02,116
Indeed. And some. And some other experiences along the way. Good

549
00:34:02,140 --> 00:34:05,516
looking women. Exactly.

550
00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:09,276
But. So if I'm interested in taking advantage of

551
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,824
blockbar and I want a McAllen, you know,

552
00:34:13,164 --> 00:34:16,420
I don't know, all I have here is 25, so it's really. Maybe. Well, that's

553
00:34:16,452 --> 00:34:20,164
worth it. Just a couple thousand dollars worth of scotch. I would want to protect

554
00:34:20,204 --> 00:34:23,876
that. I would get it from McAllen through

555
00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:27,780
you as a. As. As the vendor. Yes. Yes. So, I mean,

556
00:34:27,812 --> 00:34:31,580
essentially, we would have to have a relationship with McCallum. McCallum would sell

557
00:34:31,612 --> 00:34:35,395
it to us on our platform and then we

558
00:34:35,419 --> 00:34:38,331
would store it for you until you want to redeem it and take possession of

559
00:34:38,347 --> 00:34:41,995
it. When you want to redeem it, you let us know where you want it

560
00:34:42,019 --> 00:34:45,583
delivered to. Essentially, it gets delivered to you and the NFT gets burned.

561
00:34:46,083 --> 00:34:49,303
And so we don't take any wines from the secondary market.

562
00:34:49,723 --> 00:34:53,555
And so we're not a secondary marketplace. We

563
00:34:53,579 --> 00:34:57,123
take wines only direct from the producer and then we do have a secondary

564
00:34:57,163 --> 00:35:00,339
marketplace if someone wants to sell their

565
00:35:00,371 --> 00:35:04,150
bottles or their case cost. Yeah, well, it's still

566
00:35:04,182 --> 00:35:07,790
in our possession or still the distillery, but once it's left

567
00:35:07,822 --> 00:35:11,190
our ecosystem, we don't validate any further. Right.

568
00:35:11,222 --> 00:35:15,054
So I want to redeem my NFT, I get my bottle of 25 McAllen.

569
00:35:15,094 --> 00:35:18,874
And now that all bets are off at that point. Exactly. Yep.

570
00:35:19,614 --> 00:35:23,238
But yeah, then you mentioned earlier you can gift it. I could sell it.

571
00:35:23,366 --> 00:35:26,934
The NFT. Yes. And the buyer, that NFC has complete

572
00:35:26,974 --> 00:35:30,656
100% confidence that this is, this bottle exists and it's

573
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,456
in possession of blockbuster. Yes, correct. And so, yeah,

574
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,080
and so when you do a transaction, when you sell due to the smart

575
00:35:38,112 --> 00:35:41,912
contract, the transaction is. Yeah,

576
00:35:42,008 --> 00:35:45,808
it happens all online and in real time. So there

577
00:35:45,856 --> 00:35:49,592
you see the NFT transferring from. If I owned

578
00:35:49,608 --> 00:35:53,416
it and you bought it, I would see the NFT being transferred to you.

579
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,846
It would leave my wallet. It would go to your wallet. The

580
00:35:56,870 --> 00:36:00,662
funds would come to me. So the way it works on

581
00:36:00,678 --> 00:36:04,310
the secondary marketplaces is the blockbuster charges 5%.

582
00:36:04,422 --> 00:36:08,102
Sorry, 10%. We charge 10% for sale, 5%

583
00:36:08,158 --> 00:36:11,846
goes directly back to the producer and 5% goes to blockbuster, which

584
00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:15,686
covers our storage, insurance costs. And that's

585
00:36:15,710 --> 00:36:19,390
all automated. So you can literally, the smart

586
00:36:19,422 --> 00:36:22,838
contract takes care of all of that. And so it's a very efficient and fast

587
00:36:22,886 --> 00:36:26,670
process. Same with, if you're gifting something, it's the same process you just gifted

588
00:36:26,702 --> 00:36:30,544
someone. They accepted and the transaction automatically updates on the blockchain.

589
00:36:31,764 --> 00:36:35,492
Fascinating concept. And very. I mean,

590
00:36:35,588 --> 00:36:38,824
it solves the problem. And I was just thinking as we were talking,

591
00:36:39,364 --> 00:36:42,644
the whole issue in America with three tier

592
00:36:42,764 --> 00:36:44,984
process for alcohol

593
00:36:46,164 --> 00:36:49,796
lends itself to how many hands are going to be touching a product

594
00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:53,340
like this and potentially add to a level of

595
00:36:53,372 --> 00:36:57,102
fraudulent buying. I mean, I'm going to guess that if I'm at R and

596
00:36:57,118 --> 00:37:00,246
DC and I'm getting my McAllen, or if I'm at southern, I'm getting my

597
00:37:00,270 --> 00:37:03,990
opus. Pretty reasonable expectation that

598
00:37:04,062 --> 00:37:07,902
the wines of what it is, but it's not been

599
00:37:07,958 --> 00:37:11,686
traced. It's possible that somebody interrupted it and

600
00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:15,566
did something that made it fake. And what we're seeing more

601
00:37:15,590 --> 00:37:19,150
and more is nowadays there may be a six bottle case

602
00:37:19,302 --> 00:37:22,826
and maybe one bottle is counterfeit and five are

603
00:37:22,850 --> 00:37:26,330
good. And so someone along the chain is doing something. So the

604
00:37:26,362 --> 00:37:29,922
traceability and transparency is super

605
00:37:29,978 --> 00:37:33,610
important. And you've also, obviously in that three tier system, you've also got

606
00:37:33,642 --> 00:37:37,386
condition to be worried about because when the wines

607
00:37:37,410 --> 00:37:41,002
are moving around, how are they moving? What temperature? I've moved down to

608
00:37:41,018 --> 00:37:44,106
Florida. It ain't cool down here.

609
00:37:44,290 --> 00:37:48,066
No, that was a very english thing to

610
00:37:48,090 --> 00:37:51,184
say, too. It ain't cool. Well,

611
00:37:51,264 --> 00:37:54,360
actually, in my 35 years of buying and selling wine

612
00:37:54,392 --> 00:37:57,912
monthly, I did buy a truckload from

613
00:37:57,968 --> 00:38:01,680
Paso that was a it was an aged wine, so

614
00:38:01,712 --> 00:38:05,552
it was a little more sensitive. And I, fortunately,

615
00:38:05,608 --> 00:38:09,312
I usually did not taste wines that were domestic

616
00:38:09,368 --> 00:38:12,896
because I figured they're only coming down the street, so big deal. But most imports

617
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,152
I would taste when they landed to make sure, you know, whatever, I got what

618
00:38:16,168 --> 00:38:19,666
I ordered, but I decided to taste this one. And it was. I tasted ten

619
00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:23,362
bottles from ten different pallets, and they were all shot. They were all

620
00:38:23,418 --> 00:38:26,946
had turned. And it turns out that they had stopped on the

621
00:38:26,970 --> 00:38:30,586
freeway in 120 degree heat or something. And then, of course, inside the

622
00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:34,162
container, it's more like 200. And it just baked it all. And thank

623
00:38:34,178 --> 00:38:37,454
goodness, contractually, I was not obligated to take the wine, but

624
00:38:37,954 --> 00:38:41,594
that could happen. Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing

625
00:38:41,754 --> 00:38:45,058
how many places still today and, yeah. How many warehouses

626
00:38:45,106 --> 00:38:48,884
and transport vehicles are not temperature controlled. And so,

627
00:38:48,924 --> 00:38:52,764
yeah, the common practice, certainly

628
00:38:52,804 --> 00:38:56,292
what we developed at Sotheby's was we would put temperature

629
00:38:56,348 --> 00:38:59,980
loggers in different cases, in containers

630
00:39:00,172 --> 00:39:03,904
and in shipments around the country to make sure that

631
00:39:04,244 --> 00:39:07,104
we could then get the readings of the temperature

632
00:39:09,204 --> 00:39:12,900
of bottles in transit. And, yeah, as you know,

633
00:39:12,932 --> 00:39:16,724
it's just like, yeah, very hot heat can

634
00:39:16,764 --> 00:39:20,420
damage a wine pretty quickly. Obviously, you drink it

635
00:39:20,612 --> 00:39:24,284
immediately, little damage, but it will age much,

636
00:39:24,324 --> 00:39:27,748
much faster, and it's not a very good drink

637
00:39:27,796 --> 00:39:30,624
after a little while. How does someone

638
00:39:31,644 --> 00:39:34,796
learn about block bar? I'm a consumer.

639
00:39:34,980 --> 00:39:38,532
Well, one of my great customers has an

640
00:39:38,548 --> 00:39:42,266
incredible collection of scotches, japanese scotches, in his. I

641
00:39:42,290 --> 00:39:45,962
see. He would love this. He's always looking for something

642
00:39:46,138 --> 00:39:49,770
interesting, and particularly in the burgundy side

643
00:39:49,802 --> 00:39:53,534
of the wine world. But how does somebody learn about blockbar? How do

644
00:39:54,234 --> 00:39:57,314
they go to mission wines and spirits and buy their McAllen?

645
00:39:57,474 --> 00:40:01,226
So blockbar, it's an online site. So we have,

646
00:40:01,250 --> 00:40:05,002
it's blockbar.com. and yeah, we have an faq there. Super

647
00:40:05,058 --> 00:40:08,454
easy to use. We also have an app which you can download.

648
00:40:09,094 --> 00:40:12,902
And then we have a concierge service. So we're pretty responsive. We're a

649
00:40:12,918 --> 00:40:16,334
young, young startup, so we're pretty energetic and

650
00:40:16,374 --> 00:40:20,086
enthusiastic. And so people can always email me@jamielockbar.com.

651
00:40:20,110 --> 00:40:23,394
j A M I e

652
00:40:24,614 --> 00:40:28,222
or just go to the website. And it's really very

653
00:40:28,278 --> 00:40:31,806
self explanatory. There's nothing very complicated about it. You can search or

654
00:40:31,830 --> 00:40:35,622
filter for different producers, different products, you can

655
00:40:35,638 --> 00:40:39,406
look at the secondary marketplace, you can make offers on things. And if there's

656
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:41,154
anything confusing, we just put live.

657
00:40:42,854 --> 00:40:46,246
Yes, on Monday a sale with Shadow

658
00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:49,870
d'Esclan of their top of the range wine Garrus and we're selling

659
00:40:50,062 --> 00:40:53,814
one barrel, which is split into four quarters, and so

660
00:40:53,854 --> 00:40:57,342
people can bid on a quarter barrel. And then it's in a

661
00:40:57,358 --> 00:41:01,206
leaderboard technology, which is sequential auction.

662
00:41:01,350 --> 00:41:05,118
And then the auction will close in a couple of

663
00:41:05,126 --> 00:41:08,830
weeks time, and then the buyers in June get to choose their

664
00:41:08,862 --> 00:41:12,606
different bottle sizes. They can have them bottled in bottles, magnums, three litres or

665
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:16,470
six liter bottles. And then during the harvest,

666
00:41:16,502 --> 00:41:20,198
they can go and visit our chateau d'Esclan and have a tasting,

667
00:41:20,246 --> 00:41:23,566
lunch and tour, etcetera. So there's an experience thrown as

668
00:41:23,590 --> 00:41:27,406
well. Yep. The

669
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:30,766
platform enables us to do some fun and interesting things and also

670
00:41:30,910 --> 00:41:34,706
physically connect the bars with the producers through a

671
00:41:34,730 --> 00:41:38,426
series of events. Seems like it would be

672
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:41,674
really the only way. Particularly this

673
00:41:41,714 --> 00:41:45,482
collection. This gentleman I'm talking about, he put your thumb on the door and

674
00:41:45,498 --> 00:41:49,154
the door opens, because it's biometric. And all the things that go along with collecting

675
00:41:49,234 --> 00:41:51,374
screaming eagle and first World War does,

676
00:41:52,714 --> 00:41:55,810
you'd almost want that. Actually, it's kind of interesting,

677
00:41:55,922 --> 00:41:59,664
because when I bring it up, I don't get a lot of

678
00:42:00,884 --> 00:42:04,452
head nodding when I say, look, you need to understand the provenance of this wine.

679
00:42:04,628 --> 00:42:08,300
I do business with a distributor here called Duclos. He

680
00:42:08,372 --> 00:42:11,904
charges a little more as part of the Moex group. Exactly.

681
00:42:13,044 --> 00:42:16,604
I pay a little more for the Bordeaux, but I'm very confident that it's

682
00:42:16,644 --> 00:42:20,292
direct from the winery and that as a distributor in

683
00:42:20,308 --> 00:42:23,464
Los Angeles, I can rely on this authenticity.

684
00:42:23,864 --> 00:42:27,536
But if I'm a consumer and I don't have access to that, I would

685
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,336
only want my high end wines and spirits to go

686
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,408
through a process like that. And if I do bring them in to drink or

687
00:42:34,416 --> 00:42:37,684
to have my cellar, I take responsibility. But until then,

688
00:42:38,064 --> 00:42:41,644
I have complete confidence of what it is. What's going on with these?

689
00:42:42,184 --> 00:42:45,712
I don't know. They're not three d and some are augmented

690
00:42:45,768 --> 00:42:49,560
reality, but they have those sort of. I guess they are

691
00:42:49,592 --> 00:42:52,856
3d stickers. It seems like that has opportunity for.

692
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,380
Fraudulent use as well, NFC stickers and

693
00:42:56,532 --> 00:42:59,664
RFI. I think people are using different

694
00:43:00,084 --> 00:43:03,744
methods of traceability, and the wineries are embedding

695
00:43:04,524 --> 00:43:07,784
different technologies into their labels, bottles, capsules,

696
00:43:08,444 --> 00:43:12,052
to secure their products. And so I would

697
00:43:12,148 --> 00:43:15,340
commend all of the activities

698
00:43:15,412 --> 00:43:18,424
around using technology to try and

699
00:43:19,604 --> 00:43:23,024
maintain provenance, maintain the integrity

700
00:43:23,444 --> 00:43:25,904
of the bottles and their authenticity.

701
00:43:27,034 --> 00:43:30,570
Yeah, at the end of the day, I think they're all

702
00:43:30,602 --> 00:43:34,346
useful. Obviously, from my perspective, the

703
00:43:34,370 --> 00:43:37,906
most useful is no, it comes directly from the producer and goes directly to the

704
00:43:37,930 --> 00:43:41,570
consumer. However, many times it trades under the. Blogba

705
00:43:41,602 --> 00:43:45,306
model, having this conversation is making my mind go back to

706
00:43:45,330 --> 00:43:48,826
my seller. I got a couple of 2015

707
00:43:48,890 --> 00:43:51,826
margots there. I'm like, I don't know, man. I don't remember where I bought them

708
00:43:51,850 --> 00:43:54,974
from. But I think that's

709
00:43:56,144 --> 00:43:59,880
the old fashioned way to do it, is make sure

710
00:43:59,912 --> 00:44:03,672
you trust the person who's selling it to you. And if

711
00:44:03,688 --> 00:44:07,360
a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is. Probably

712
00:44:07,432 --> 00:44:11,144
is. So wine spirits, which is. Well,

713
00:44:11,184 --> 00:44:14,960
this is Gen Z and millennials mostly. I'm going to guess that distilled spirits are

714
00:44:14,992 --> 00:44:18,696
probably lead the inventory count, the SKU count for

715
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,536
blockbar. So Blockbar was founded by the

716
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,808
founders, the owners and principals of duty Free

717
00:44:25,856 --> 00:44:29,312
Americas, which is the largest free business in the Americas.

718
00:44:29,488 --> 00:44:33,044
And so that business is 99% spirit. So it was founded

719
00:44:33,384 --> 00:44:36,964
based around solving the problem for spirits.

720
00:44:37,464 --> 00:44:40,644
My background is really in the wine business.

721
00:44:42,264 --> 00:44:45,752
And so to date, we are probably

722
00:44:45,808 --> 00:44:49,336
98% spirits. And going forward, we'll be

723
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,828
launching more and more wines from September onwards.

724
00:44:52,976 --> 00:44:56,212
And, yeah, our aim is we'd love to get to around

725
00:44:56,268 --> 00:44:59,668
50% spirits, 50% wine. Yeah, the market will actually

726
00:44:59,716 --> 00:45:03,236
determine where we end up on that. On that. But that's all, that's our

727
00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:06,704
intention. You know, the question always, I never

728
00:45:07,364 --> 00:45:11,052
ask it regularly because I don't understand it, but I don't know how there's more

729
00:45:11,108 --> 00:45:14,684
room for high end spirits and

730
00:45:14,804 --> 00:45:18,604
get. And these guys are getting. Building the brand, getting

731
00:45:18,644 --> 00:45:22,276
their placements and selling offer, you know, lots of money. Look at

732
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:25,876
dow one for a billion dollars, or in that range, George

733
00:45:25,900 --> 00:45:29,304
Clooney's tequila. I'm like, how is there room,

734
00:45:30,364 --> 00:45:33,868
how's your differential room in the world of collecting

735
00:45:33,996 --> 00:45:37,636
spirits that it's created such demand? I just.

736
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:41,304
I'm just old fashioned, I guess. I think the proliferation of

737
00:45:41,804 --> 00:45:45,624
producers is going to. Yeah, it's going to rescind

738
00:45:46,204 --> 00:45:49,984
because I don't think the market can sustain so many different producers.

739
00:45:50,814 --> 00:45:54,230
Yeah, but I think the interesting thing about the millennials and the Gen Z

740
00:45:54,342 --> 00:45:58,102
audience is that they are willing to premiumize. They do want to

741
00:45:58,118 --> 00:46:01,894
drink better. They like experiences. They like sharing things

742
00:46:01,934 --> 00:46:05,614
with their friends. They also have a differential price point concept.

743
00:46:05,654 --> 00:46:09,366
So the boomers, we grow up with certain things at

744
00:46:09,390 --> 00:46:13,150
certain price points. My son and

745
00:46:13,182 --> 00:46:16,662
daughter, they compare the price of a bottle of wine today

746
00:46:16,798 --> 00:46:19,278
to maybe a price of a pair of sneakers. Now, for me, a pair of

747
00:46:19,286 --> 00:46:21,514
sneakers is $125.

748
00:46:23,884 --> 00:46:27,116
For them, a pair of, exactly. For them, a pair of golden goose sneakers is

749
00:46:27,140 --> 00:46:30,916
$600. They have a different relationship with price

750
00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:34,744
value and wine equations fits into that. So

751
00:46:35,044 --> 00:46:38,868
I think you mentioned yellowtail earlier on. I

752
00:46:38,876 --> 00:46:42,476
think the yellowtail end of the market will be more difficult for

753
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:46,332
people going forward. I think for people who are making

754
00:46:46,388 --> 00:46:50,212
something that is a

755
00:46:50,268 --> 00:46:53,916
gender authentic product with an authentic story about

756
00:46:53,980 --> 00:46:57,628
quality, whether that's in wine from a specific

757
00:46:57,676 --> 00:47:01,444
vineyard place site, or it's a spirit that's been

758
00:47:01,484 --> 00:47:05,028
aged in a particular way for some time, then I think

759
00:47:05,156 --> 00:47:08,664
the storytelling is very important to the millennial and Gen Z

760
00:47:09,244 --> 00:47:13,064
audience. They want to align their values with the values of the producer.

761
00:47:13,594 --> 00:47:16,898
They want authentic storytelling, not a

762
00:47:16,946 --> 00:47:20,666
story that's essentially.

763
00:47:20,770 --> 00:47:24,466
We used to produce this, we just relabeled it, and we're now

764
00:47:24,490 --> 00:47:28,154
charging more for it. And so I think going forward, I think, yeah,

765
00:47:28,274 --> 00:47:32,066
there's interesting things to be learned from the spirit side of, from the wine business

766
00:47:32,130 --> 00:47:35,914
and vice versa going forward about what

767
00:47:35,954 --> 00:47:39,698
authenticity really means. The woman I mentioned, the beginning of the

768
00:47:39,706 --> 00:47:43,106
show, Jessica Kogan, she had come from Donna Karen,

769
00:47:43,170 --> 00:47:46,932
or one of the fashion companies that she went

770
00:47:46,948 --> 00:47:49,876
to, wine. Brilliant digital

771
00:47:49,940 --> 00:47:53,636
marketeer. Now she's on the consulting side. But we

772
00:47:53,660 --> 00:47:57,444
both agreed that this social networking,

773
00:47:57,484 --> 00:48:01,236
marketing, all those things that go along with it, the influencer side, it's going to

774
00:48:01,260 --> 00:48:04,988
implode. It's already starting to implode in that it's almost impossible to get

775
00:48:05,076 --> 00:48:08,892
your acquisition cost through Facebook because you spend so much money trying to

776
00:48:08,908 --> 00:48:11,824
find somebody, and then they're so disloyal.

777
00:48:12,564 --> 00:48:16,396
Generally, they're disloyal and they're looking for the best deal. Groupon did that

778
00:48:16,420 --> 00:48:19,384
to us. And then in the wine trade,

779
00:48:20,084 --> 00:48:23,772
particularly companies like Wink, which was buying 50

780
00:48:23,828 --> 00:48:27,628
centiliter stuff from the center of Spain, bottling it three

781
00:48:27,676 --> 00:48:31,372
ways to sundae some interesting labels and pawning it off as

782
00:48:31,468 --> 00:48:35,252
$15 to $20 wine. You can only fool people for so long. When you

783
00:48:35,268 --> 00:48:38,738
open the bottle, you kind of go, this really isn't that great. I kind of

784
00:48:38,746 --> 00:48:42,386
got ripped off. And so there goes your lifetime value of a customer, there goes

785
00:48:42,410 --> 00:48:45,594
your subscription model, because they only stick around for a month or two, and all

786
00:48:45,594 --> 00:48:49,106
of a sudden, a $250 million gross revenue company goes out of

787
00:48:49,130 --> 00:48:52,786
business. And I think there's going to be more of that. I think the

788
00:48:52,810 --> 00:48:56,610
consumer's tired of being fooled. I think

789
00:48:56,642 --> 00:48:59,854
the consumer's tired of brands that aren't real.

790
00:49:00,434 --> 00:49:03,698
I have no problem with white labels or private label brands because you can buy

791
00:49:03,746 --> 00:49:06,832
really good juice and put it that way. And that's you. You end up with,

792
00:49:06,898 --> 00:49:10,700
you know, a nice wine, but that comes from the

793
00:49:10,732 --> 00:49:14,452
passion and the objective of the bottler. And the person making the

794
00:49:14,468 --> 00:49:18,220
brand. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the. Well, as you said, the

795
00:49:18,252 --> 00:49:21,876
authenticity of the storytelling, and it has to be authentic, and it has

796
00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:25,612
to offer value for money. And I think with private label,

797
00:49:25,708 --> 00:49:29,420
you see private label being a bit more challenging because people are buying

798
00:49:29,492 --> 00:49:33,212
cheap liquid and putting it under a no name brand and

799
00:49:33,228 --> 00:49:36,860
then trying to sell it. I think the own label, where people are disclosing

800
00:49:36,972 --> 00:49:40,492
their own brand, is actually much more relevant,

801
00:49:40,548 --> 00:49:44,356
because even if it's a less expensive brand like

802
00:49:44,380 --> 00:49:48,116
Kirkland at Costco, they're still proud of their brand, and they want the quality, for

803
00:49:48,140 --> 00:49:51,172
the value, for money to be there. And I think so. I think the old

804
00:49:51,228 --> 00:49:54,544
label, where it's disclosed what the brand is,

805
00:49:54,924 --> 00:49:58,292
actually has a value. But I agree with you. I

806
00:49:58,308 --> 00:50:02,000
think the. The younger generation will premiumize.

807
00:50:02,032 --> 00:50:05,744
They will spend more money on different

808
00:50:05,784 --> 00:50:09,280
bottles of wine and spirits. But the storytelling needs to be

809
00:50:09,392 --> 00:50:13,032
correct, it needs to be authentic, and it needs to align with their values. In

810
00:50:13,048 --> 00:50:16,384
fact, my comment is, I bought this on Groupon for

811
00:50:16,424 --> 00:50:19,884
$5. Is not a story that you want to tell.

812
00:50:21,024 --> 00:50:24,872
Definitely not. In fact, during Christmas, after I sold my company

813
00:50:24,928 --> 00:50:28,158
last March, last May, keep an eye on what's going

814
00:50:28,206 --> 00:50:31,990
on. And I, in fact, listen to seminars all the time to keep

815
00:50:32,022 --> 00:50:35,678
up on the marketing methodologies, AI in particular. But

816
00:50:35,806 --> 00:50:39,074
a club started here in the United States called

817
00:50:39,614 --> 00:50:43,238
Cheapo Vino. And I'm thinking,

818
00:50:43,326 --> 00:50:47,046
who wants to say at dinnertime, with a guess, I got

819
00:50:47,070 --> 00:50:50,434
this on. Well, maybe it's Vino Cheapo, one of the two.

820
00:50:51,314 --> 00:50:54,738
That's not a story. I mean, that's just not telling a story. We're already

821
00:50:54,786 --> 00:50:58,442
at 50 minutes here, so we're. We've got to wrap this up. I will tell

822
00:50:58,458 --> 00:51:02,210
you, I'm going to Bordeaux in about a week, week and a half.

823
00:51:02,362 --> 00:51:05,894
Uh, we're going to visit Lagrange and Cheval Blanc and Angelus.

824
00:51:06,314 --> 00:51:09,266
So if you need anybody, you know, to run flanker for you while we're walking

825
00:51:09,290 --> 00:51:13,034
in there, of course. You know, I was, uh, I was actually just there,

826
00:51:13,074 --> 00:51:16,274
um, tasting the 2023 a few weeks ago.

827
00:51:16,394 --> 00:51:19,932
And I've got to say, bordeaux is making. Is making

828
00:51:20,068 --> 00:51:23,340
exceptional wines. And for the price point, it's sort of

829
00:51:23,372 --> 00:51:27,204
interesting. They used to be, yes, about 70% of the secondary

830
00:51:27,244 --> 00:51:30,284
market used to be Bordeaux, and now it's down to about 25% of the secondary

831
00:51:30,324 --> 00:51:34,172
market. But the value for money in Bordeaux Bordeaux

832
00:51:34,188 --> 00:51:36,940
is probably cheaper than in value for money.

833
00:51:37,052 --> 00:51:40,452
Burgundy, California, and champagne. So

834
00:51:40,628 --> 00:51:44,236
you'll have a great time, and you'll drink well and you'll drink. I think they're

835
00:51:44,260 --> 00:51:47,916
making better wine than ever before. I'm very proud of myself. Two

836
00:51:47,940 --> 00:51:51,324
of my local friends that just, you know, they're not

837
00:51:51,364 --> 00:51:54,756
wine aficionados, but they're starting to learn and

838
00:51:54,780 --> 00:51:58,544
they've, they're very excited about this trip to Bordeaux because

839
00:51:58,924 --> 00:52:02,444
I've kind of moved them off of the Napa cab, you know, profile

840
00:52:02,524 --> 00:52:06,324
into a more, you know, structured, acidic backbone. But

841
00:52:06,404 --> 00:52:10,144
fabulous conversation. Jamie, I really appreciate the time and

842
00:52:10,924 --> 00:52:14,026
hearing about blockbar and what's going on. I think it's a really

843
00:52:14,090 --> 00:52:17,934
solid approach to collecting and buying.

844
00:52:18,434 --> 00:52:21,002
Paul, it's been a pleasure talking to you and thank you very much for having

845
00:52:21,018 --> 00:52:23,014
me on your show. Much appreciated. Cheers.

846
00:52:31,754 --> 00:52:35,090
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum. Cary. And don't forget to

847
00:52:35,122 --> 00:52:38,274
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

848
00:52:38,434 --> 00:52:41,754
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.