Boot Strap Might Be A word, But I Think Tenancity Is Better To Describe Charles Smith.

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Carson Leno

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Fallon. Now it's

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wine talks with Paul K.

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Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today about

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to have a conversation with Charles Smith. Introductions in just a moment.

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Hey, have a listen to Gavin Slabber just came in from South Africa. I just

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released four, or this is actually the first of four interviews I did with

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winemakers from South Africa. It's an amazing conversation

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and there's tons of stories to tell from down there. I think you ought to

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listen. And don't forget Mae Elian Lankasong, who was

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also in South Africa but was born in Bordeaux.

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She's 98 years old and she tells the stories of the Nazis coming into

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her parents chateau and literally shooting it up. Have a listen.

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Also, meet Jessica Kogan, one of the

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brilliant digital marketeers in our industry. She came from the

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icon, fashion icon Donna Karan. It's Koran. Right,

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Karen, young lady.

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And she applied her know how to wine and is now on a

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company called Connect the Dots, where they're doing digital marketing. Has incredible, insightful things

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to say about that, but not why we're here. We're here to talk to Charles

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Smith all the way down from Walla Walla. Welcome to the show. Great to be

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here. Thanks. Fresh off the plane. Yeah. You had quite a tour already.

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Vegas and. Yeah, I started in Seattle on

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Sunday, headed to Las Vegas. Came this morning from

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Sacramento, and I'll be flying out tomorrow night to St.

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Louis. So let's talk about that for a second, because this is,

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I was talking about Jessica Kogan here. We were talking about the experiential side of

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wine, and that kind of the needle seems to be moving back to

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that. You see this patch here, which is Les Amie Devant

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chapter my father ran in the seventies. Are we doing this to get

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people? Are we meeting consumers, meeting vendors? What are we doing? We're

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meeting about everybody out there. We're meeting the consumers and we're meeting people that are

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in the trade. I mean, wine runs from top to bottom,

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and we want to see everybody. So are you showing the wines

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at dinners? Are you talking to the, like, today you have a meeting, you're going

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to go show the distributors or retailers all

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a to z. Let's do it all. And how often a year do you do

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this? I used to before COVID I did it

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all the time. I mean, I was, sometimes I'd be on the road for 60

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days and straight. But the thing about it is, you know

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what? You know, there's wine and then there's the wine business. And you have to

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get out there and show yourself and see the people and want to see what

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people are talking about. And that's what's really interesting about it. I mean, I've got

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to go to so many great places around this country, though.

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Never found myself there. It wasn't for wine. Isn't that great? It's really

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cool. Yeah. In fact, the woman I was talking about, who's 98, who

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lives in South Africa, she says, you know, you must come see me

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because we're friends. I'm like, wow, that's a really profound thing to

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say, because wine does do that. It makes friends all over the world. Yeah, we

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were making some friends last night, drinking plenty of wine at dinner.

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But that's not the way it started out. Right? I mean, reading your background,

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the business of wine is complicated. We know that. We'll talk about that in a

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little bit. Sure. But the ethereal value of that great glass of wine, that

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19 90 99 syrah you made. Yes.

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That started you down the path. I mean, was it

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just for fun? What were you doing? No, it was for survival. I needed a

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job. So the thing is, I had an opportunity that was

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laid before me, and I took it. Necessity is

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the mother of invention, and I needed. I had

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necessities and I needed to be inventive, so I just

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did it. I never would take a winemaking class. I never worked a day at

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another winery. I never read a book about wine. I just did

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it. I showed up two days earlier when I was going to custom crush my

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wine. I watched them do what they were doing. I wouldn't couple

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that with everything else that I knew. I stepped right in and made my first

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wine, 1999 wall. Wall valleys thraw 15 barrels. You know,

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I mean, I'm sorry to say it this way, but it seemed like all

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the things were against you, right? You didn't go to school, didn't go to eenology

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school. I sent an intern off recently, Decornl. She started her

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thing. She's taking bio and all the things. And here you are, you know, bootstrapping

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it by necessity, making 300 cases of Syrah, which is

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not the most popular grape in the world, at least. Maybe it was less now

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or then. And then you went out to sell it. I mean, that's

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great to make it. That's so fun. It's so romantic. We make wine and what

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a great lifestyle. Right? But then you realize you got to sell this stuff. Yeah,

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that was actually, that was not really the challenge because I think when you're putting

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some really delicious wine with a label that people can't comprehend.

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You put it in their glass and they try it, and these are people that

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are buying for restaurants and wine shops and so forth. They know a

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good glass of wine when they taste it. And it made it pretty easy because,

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you know, my 1999 wall, Wall Valley Sorrel was absolutely

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delicious. And who doesn't love delicious wine? What was the label?

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It's Kay Vintners. It was the original label. Was Kay Vintners? Yeah, the

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black and white ones with the big black k on it. So, you know,

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I had not seen your Charles Smith label until,

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I think it was when the Wall Street Journal

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club. And as you guys know, I was a wine of the month club. We've

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done this since the seventies. That's a picture of my dad in 75.

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But one of the first big clubs that came out that was

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competitive at that time was the Wall Street Journal club.

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And there was this bottle, this white label with black ink. I don't know if

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it was a Charles Smith brand or the Velvet devil. Could have been.

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And I got, who is this guy? What is this brand? Right? But the

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one thing that's interesting as a legit brand, it wasn't something that they had made

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up. So. So you thought this was fun. You did it. You

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sold it all. I guess you had an Astro van, some kind of. Well, yeah.

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You really slept in the stuff. Well, you know, I started with

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$5,000, borrowed in a van and borrowed grapes as well.

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So, you know, you said you just get in and do it, you know,

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like this morning, and you got up really early. It sucked. But I

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needed to come down here and see you today. And so I just, you know,

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pulled my pants on, pulled my boots on, and walked out the door, and here

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I am. And so what, I mean, really,

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that's inspiring, though. Was that an aspiring, you know,

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beginning, like you did, that you sold it. People thought, this is really good. And

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you're like, wow, this is. I kind of like this. Well, I was just really

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pleased that people were responding really positively to my wine. And I think people

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found it somewhat refreshing that, you know, that I was, you know,

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just being myself and, you know, being the, you know,

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the owner and the winemaker, or whatever you want to say,

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showing up and doing it, you know, I mean, you know, I had my van

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full of wine, drove from wall low with 84 cases in my

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astro van, which means the front wheels, tires were barely on the road, and

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I knew I'd stop at the first account that I knew that might take the

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most wine to take some weight off the back. Yeah, right. And I

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would be in Seattle until every case was sold. I say,

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you want to try my wine? Yeah, when can we buy it? I said, right

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now. It's in the car. Wrote in the boys, they wrote me a check,

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and down the road I went. So you're an only winemaker. You were a

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shipping guy? You were. I was the only employee.

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Oh, it was dreadful. I mean, you know, a little.

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Few years later, we got a little bit up on this kind of the accounting

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side of it. But, yeah, it was just me. I mean, I was only one

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there. For the first six years, really, so. Six. I mean, I started house

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wine, which I sold to preset brands, and I started

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house wine brand in 2004, and by the time

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I sold it was 93,000 cases. And I hired my first person to

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take care of the financials and the shipping part of my,

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my wines. And then I started Charles Smith wines right after that

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when, you know, kung fu girl and the bevel devil and all that stuff. And,

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you know, but along the way, I've been, you know, kind of not reinventing

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myself, but continue down the road doing new things, not

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repeating my way that I do things. I mean,

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everything we farm, we farm with no forces of death in the

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vineyard. There's no synthetic chemicals or anything in the winery.

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Everything I make, whether it's two barrels or 100,000 cases, is

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native fermented. The only thing in my wine besides the grapes and the vessel, the

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rest in it is little. So two, and that's it. I mean, I'm

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inspired by true winemaking

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wine that is honest and integrity, and

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therefore it's bulletproof for me. I can go out and put myself out there on

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the line every time I visit someone because I know that I did my

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work. When did that come around? Like, you made this first cases of

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Syrah and then you thought, I'm going to do this again. No, I

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was going to continue. I mean, you know, you know, there. Was going to always

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be this natural ferment. You're always going to use natural yeast. You were going to

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build from the ground up what would be today. You know, we call it organic

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or natural, whatever words you want to use. Yeah, well, it's not. It's not

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what is labeled as natural. But, I mean, I'm on the right side of

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sulfur. You know, I mean, there's. There's a right amount and there's the wrong

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amount. The wrong amount is too much. And the wrong amount is none. Right.

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You know, I mean, you know, I don't want my wine to taste like

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IPA or smell like IpA, you know, I mean, I like wine,

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but for each their own, you know, people like natural wine, you know, go your

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own way, do what you want, you know, but it's not what I do. I

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just make more, you know, kind of old world style wines

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with. With integrity, but I make it them in their new world. Well, that's the

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good point, though, because when we was tasting wine here all these

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years, and they started coming out with, and look, you and I know there's no

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definition for natural wine doesn't exist. The FDA has never even heard of it.

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It's just an idea.

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They all tasted like kombucha. And it's like, wait a minute. The

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world has been making wine that way for thousands of years. It wasn't until the

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forties or whatever where the copper sulfate was introduced by the border ladies, all those

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kinds of things. It was always the way you're making them, wasn't it? I mean,

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what's that? Well, I think that the wines didn't travel so much. And I think

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that the idea of some stability is really important. I mean, if

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you go to a restaurant and you order raviolis today, you find them delicious, and

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tomorrow you go and order them again, and it's a completely different thing. How many

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times are you going to go back to that restaurant? That's true. You know, I

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mean, if I'm buying a bottle of wine, I mean, I would like

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the next one I buy to be fairly similar to the one I

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just had, you know, and, you know, if people think it's, you know,

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playing russian roulette with drinking wine, I mean,

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they find that fun. Hey, like I said, for each their own. I just

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don't choose that for. I think that's probably the basis of your growth

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because, you know, so many wineries doctor stuff up to make them

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taste the same. You're still bringing to the table something that's reflective of what you've

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been doing, certainly, but not, you know, the crap they're bringing from Europe for

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fifty cents a liter kind of thing. No, I'm making the wine that I

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remember inspired me and why I

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fell in love with wine in the beginning. And it was when I was working

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as a migrant restaurant worker. I worked winters in Palm Springs and summers in

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Lake Tahoe and Napa Valley. Well, you know, you can't

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put it all your life experiences, there's. And I worked at

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this restaurant at the spa hotel called the Agui Caliente

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room. And, you know, he had a maitre d

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captains, front waiter, back waiter, and bus

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boys. And I walked through the kitchen to get a job, and I got a

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job as a back waiter bringing food out. And I realized that

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the captains, they always had these service bar

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near the kitchen and always had this cold white wines and the ice

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buckets, and they were just drinking this wine all night, like, what isn't? And

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eventually, you know, I just snuck some for myself. I was like. It was just,

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you know, I've been working. It was warm, and I was, you know, running around

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the restaurant doing what I'm doing. And it was fresh, white and minerally,

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and it was exactly what I needed. It served the exact purpose,

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what I think wine is supposed to be about. And believe it or not, it

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was Parducci Sauvignon blanche,

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a very basic wine. But back then,

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Parducci Sauvignon Blanc probably only was grapes, and I'm

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sure I don't imagine they're the same, but what I'm saying is, I

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fell in love with that wine because of that, and a very,

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you know, serviceable wine, and is all I needed. And

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that's what I want to do for me, you know, if wine isn't

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pleasant and feels pleasant in your mouth, there's no point in even drinking

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it. So this experience at the restaurant

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that said, wait a minute, this is really interesting stuff I got. Because you

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hadn't really experienced wine at that level before that? No.

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Well, one thing I noticed when I started working, I said, for about a

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couple weeks, I noticed there was this one waiter that apparently must have been, like,

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the best waiter because he had a medal around his chest, like he'd won some

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waiter competition. And I asked one of the captains, who's that? I said, that's the

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wine guy. The wine guy. What does he do? He comes in late, leaves early,

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and drinks all night. We have to tip him out. And I'm like, I want

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his job. Sounded pretty good. Yeah. Sounded like a really good idea. Assuming the

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medal was a taste of. A. Yeah, I thought he

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had a medal. But, you know, what did I know? You know, I'm a

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high school dropout from Loomis, California, so what do I know? We don't,

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you know, we don't see those around much. You know, the last time I saw

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taste font was Kevin O'Leary, the shark tank guy, right? He was on the show,

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and he was wearing that thing. And I go, wow, I haven't seen that for

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years. No. So, anyway, you found that on

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the hospitality side. This was an amazing experience. It's your aha. Moment. Everybody has

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them in the wine business, but then you go on to say, you talk about

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you want to create wines for the people. What

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does that mean? It means that I want to have

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people. Everyone should have access to good wine no matter how much money they

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have. I mean, I never made $50,000 in my life

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until I was 43 years old and my

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fortunes changed. But the thing is. But I knew the good bottles, and

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I could find them in a set amongst a sea of

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selections. And the idea with, you know, my first is the

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wine integrity that I'm putting in the bottle because everybody should have access to good

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wine. And secondly, I'm known for my labeling and

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branding simply because I want to be able to communicate the language of wine to

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people who don't speak wine so they can have access to the good stuff and

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find their way through all this shit that's actually in the market. Thank you. And

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give them real wine that doesn't have adjuncts. I mean, there's

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over 70 things that you can put in american wine. Some of the things I

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can't even pronounce. One of them, you actually, if you put that in, after five

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days, you don't put another chemical and it turns to strychnine. I mean, this is

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like nuts, really. Wow. Yeah. There's over 70 additives in

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marijuana. You know why they have them? You know why they're illegal? Because people use

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them. I guess that's the thing. Defoaming

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agents, color, sugar, insanity. I mean, wine is supposed

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to be from the earth. That's right. I mean, it's something, you know, maybe that's

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why most supreme things we could ever imagine putting in our mouth. Maybe that's

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why your wines make people feel something. There's a. You went by

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it, actually, Galliano. He just passed away, unfortunately, and I went to go see him

251
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years ago. He had a beautiful 1500 gallon redwood tank of

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zin. And he made good wines. You know, he actually was a pretty good wine

253
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maker. And he puts it in a glass, and it was a little prematurely

254
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orange. Okay. And I said. But I loved it. I said, I don't

255
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know if I can sell this because of the color. He goes, well, we can

256
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fix that. So we went in the lab, he opened the Nords

257
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refrigerator, and there's a bottle of, what, mega purple or mega red, whatever

258
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it's called, that sugar additive. And he drops in the glass, and the whole thing

259
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changed. I go, no, man. I can't sell that to people. Now that I see

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you do it, I can't do that. Yes. So how do you. How do you

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do that? Because this. This industry is ebbs and flows, and we seem to be

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in a depression right now. We seem like millennials aren't drinking Gen Z's. They're

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drinking rtds and all this stuff that's out there. White claw.

264
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How do you maintain this philosophy and get wines like this to

265
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people at a price that they can afford? Well, I just stayed the course, let

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everybody else muck about and trying to maximize their

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profits. I mean, I know what side my bread is

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buttered on. It's because the consumer who buys my wine helps me

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pay my insurance. All the folks that work with me at the winery, this is

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how we make our money. So, how do we want to do it? We want

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to do it the honest way, the right way. We want to earn every dollar

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we make by doing what is right, and that is what

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we stay true to. You know, these other companies, they want to do what they

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want to do. I think. I think they're destroying the wine business

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themselves, because who wants a drink? You can go. You can get it.

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Go to a restaurant, get a really good glass of pint of beer

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by somebody that's passionate about beer, a good brewer, and a clean

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glass with a nice head on, delicious. And then maybe you have

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a bar with a big back bar, and you got some bartender there

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that's passionate about cocktails and making a nice drink. You know, that's around

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$10. The pint's around $8. And then. Or you can get a glass of wine

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that's full of adjuncts. If I was a

283
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23 year old person, I'm not drinking. Drink that wine. That's crap.

284
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I'm gonna drink the beer made by a passionate person with integrity.

285
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I'm gonna make it drink a cocktail made by this delightful person behind the bar

286
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that is into it, or I'm gonna drink this wine where.

287
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I mean, it's not even. It's disrespectful. I believe

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that's the first time somebody has sat here and

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explained the terroir and the glass. That comes from

290
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the philosophy. Right. Because, you know, the terroir being

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the general term of weather and soil and picking conditions, all that.

292
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But romantically, I think it has a lot everything to do with what you're saying

293
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right now. Yeah, that philosophy. There's a right place for everything.

294
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And, you know, whether it's you know, my substance, Sauvignon

295
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blanc, whether it's one of my cave, Internet, syrah, whether,

296
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you know, whatever medium, or my new Pinot Noir

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project, Golden west, it is in the right spot. You

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know, for example, I make this Pinot noir called Golden west. And you think, okay,

299
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what pinot noir in Washington state? Well, 60 years ago, somebody would have said,

300
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pinot Noir in Oregon, you gotta be crazy. Now, that person's a genius.

301
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Now, you know, so now probably people going, Charles Smith, he's crazy.

302
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But, you know, I thought about it. If most people think the best Pinot noir

303
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has come from France, from Burgundy, well, what would we possibly have

304
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in common? Which, where we are, turns out we're at the same latitude as

305
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bone, where my pinot noir, we are continental

306
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climate, not coastal like bone. We are within

307
00:18:19,868 --> 00:18:23,580
one degree of the growing season in Volney. Wow. Right? Being

308
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with one degree. And also we have over 50%

309
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limestone, which is what you get on this hill in the first cruise of vos

310
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Robonay. There's four reasons why Washington state, you should be able to make

311
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absolutely superior, killer Pinot Noir.

312
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I just named four reasons why I could do it. Well, I mean, it has

313
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been known for Bordeaux varietals and some roanvir idols. And now here you are,

314
00:18:45,552 --> 00:18:49,112
biting off something interesting. We went to the 1989 McMinnville,

315
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Oregon Pinot Noir festival, the second year, and they had invited

316
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Dron and Jaddo and all these people to. And

317
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what's interesting this is. I want to reflect on this.

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Used to, back in those days, even my dad's days, you would say, oh, this

319
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is very burgundian, or this is very bordelaise, or this is. And you would refer

320
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back to regions that aren't where you're growing, and you're

321
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growing now. Walla Walla. I'm assuming that's the region. Well,

322
00:19:14,608 --> 00:19:18,280
not the Pinot noir. This would be the royal slope,

323
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but. Okay, so royal slope, Pinot Noir. Yes, but it's going

324
00:19:22,096 --> 00:19:25,312
to be its own thing. It is absolutely its own thing. How many vintages

325
00:19:25,368 --> 00:19:29,078
now? First venues was 2018 and just

326
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released in 2021. And every year you're feeling

327
00:19:33,294 --> 00:19:37,126
more. Yeah, if we had a couple glasses. Here, you'd be here. You know

328
00:19:37,150 --> 00:19:40,758
exactly what I'm talking about. That'd be really interesting, because, I

329
00:19:40,766 --> 00:19:44,574
mean, peanut water is just not something you talk about, even though Oregon is

330
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very successful with it. Well, there's great growers making

331
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:52,070
oregonian and great winemakers making oregonian pinot noir. And it should

332
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be oregonian because that's where they're making it. Same thing for Californians, but it's

333
00:19:55,958 --> 00:19:59,686
a different flavor, it's a different sensation. And the one wine that

334
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I'm making in Washington is also something that you would not expect

335
00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:06,554
domestically. Very earth, earth driven wines.

336
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Pnoir being a conduit, really, to its growing conditions.

337
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Absolutely, 100%. I mean, it's a very vivid and transparent

338
00:20:14,534 --> 00:20:17,766
wine. Have you been down the wine aisle at a supermarket

339
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:21,550
lately? Yeah, yesterday I was in Sacramento visiting

340
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Rayleigh supermarkets. Yes. And what did you see there? Did you see,

341
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I mean, to me, I'm gonna say what I see before I put my own

342
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foot in my mouth, but I took a picture the other day of this

343
00:20:32,424 --> 00:20:36,120
giant shelf of Cabernet with a shelf

344
00:20:36,152 --> 00:20:39,968
talker on every freaking bottle. And it's all the same stuff. I

345
00:20:39,976 --> 00:20:43,568
mean, it's all the same formula. It's sugared up.

346
00:20:43,736 --> 00:20:47,288
And if it's a snapper, it doesn't matter where it's from. It's a wine cocktail.

347
00:20:47,456 --> 00:20:51,246
Yeah. So how do we, how do we, how do we get out of

348
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:54,342
that? How do we tell people, look, there's something so interesting out here, I think.

349
00:20:54,358 --> 00:20:57,554
When they eventually, which will never happen, because

350
00:20:58,054 --> 00:21:01,198
there's powers that we won't want it. When you put ingredients on the back of

351
00:21:01,206 --> 00:21:05,022
the bottle, when they realize that their wine is more than

352
00:21:05,038 --> 00:21:08,838
just grapes. Are you doing that? Are you putting grapes on it yet?

353
00:21:08,926 --> 00:21:12,486
Not yet, but I will. But I just feel that

354
00:21:12,550 --> 00:21:15,882
it's like the way we farm and the way that we ferment. I don't need

355
00:21:15,898 --> 00:21:19,082
to write it on the bottle. People should expect that when they're getting wine produced

356
00:21:19,138 --> 00:21:22,730
by Charles Smith. Of course it's not going to be junked up. Of course it's

357
00:21:22,762 --> 00:21:25,370
going to be pure. Of course it's going to have integrity, because that's the only

358
00:21:25,402 --> 00:21:28,994
way that that guy would do it, and that's. I'm that guy. So, you know,

359
00:21:29,034 --> 00:21:32,706
it's said here that you are the largest now manufacturer of wine in

360
00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:35,978
Washington. That is incorrect. I am the largest

361
00:21:36,066 --> 00:21:39,322
independent producer of wine in Washington state. Largest

362
00:21:39,378 --> 00:21:43,150
winemaker owned winery. I have quite a number of projects. I have

363
00:21:43,182 --> 00:21:46,286
caveenters. I have six toe. I have wines of

364
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:50,062
substance. I have Vino, I have Cassa Smith. Am

365
00:21:50,078 --> 00:21:53,590
I forgetting anything? Oh, yeah. Golden west. Are they

366
00:21:53,622 --> 00:21:57,086
each philosophically different brands, or are they

367
00:21:57,230 --> 00:22:00,314
varietally different? Is that what you try to do, or how do you.

368
00:22:02,694 --> 00:22:06,542
The philosophy is a clear thread through everything that I do, but

369
00:22:06,558 --> 00:22:10,142
the idea is I approach every wine in every project if it's the only wine

370
00:22:10,158 --> 00:22:13,918
that I do. Wow, that's a statement. It

371
00:22:13,926 --> 00:22:17,214
should be that way, right? Yes, it should. And I also make this.

372
00:22:17,254 --> 00:22:20,846
Now everything is front and forward. I mean,

373
00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:24,438
I drink more of my twelve to 15, $15 bottle of

374
00:22:24,446 --> 00:22:28,238
wines than my more, you know, lofty priced wines.

375
00:22:28,406 --> 00:22:32,206
And because the only difference between my wines between less priced and

376
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:35,886
high price is the yield from the vineyard and the time

377
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:39,760
aging. That's it. This is fascinating

378
00:22:39,792 --> 00:22:43,144
because you've created this philosophy

379
00:22:43,304 --> 00:22:46,624
from the ground up. You were in

380
00:22:46,664 --> 00:22:50,264
necessity making wine because you needed to pay the bills. By the way, my necessity

381
00:22:50,304 --> 00:22:53,984
right now, because I don't have a company functionally selling wine, is

382
00:22:54,104 --> 00:22:57,432
voice acting. Okay. I want to become a voice actor. That's my back against the

383
00:22:57,448 --> 00:23:01,064
wall. Probably should start making some money. And so I've been working on voice

384
00:23:01,104 --> 00:23:03,784
acting. That's what I want to do. I probably wouldn't be very good at it.

385
00:23:03,904 --> 00:23:07,050
No, I think you might be. But it's for fun. It's like, I love the

386
00:23:07,082 --> 00:23:10,858
necessity part of this. But you grew up with a philosophy. You started

387
00:23:10,906 --> 00:23:14,562
with a philosophy, and you're still doing that. I think that's obviously a

388
00:23:14,578 --> 00:23:18,354
very important part of your success. Because if you're just gonna make

389
00:23:18,394 --> 00:23:22,218
menage a trois out of, you know, sugar and grapes or things

390
00:23:22,266 --> 00:23:25,482
like that, you're just gonna be part of the me too movement. You know, we

391
00:23:25,498 --> 00:23:27,882
have this, too, and it's gonna be on the shelf. Yeah. And the thing is,

392
00:23:27,898 --> 00:23:31,574
there's some really good, you know, wine stewards

393
00:23:32,074 --> 00:23:35,882
and in the restaurants and in the grocery store. I

394
00:23:35,898 --> 00:23:39,290
mean, we met this really lovely person, that nugget up in Sacramento

395
00:23:39,322 --> 00:23:43,050
yesterday. And they're putting their best foot forward to do the best

396
00:23:43,082 --> 00:23:46,578
work they possibly can. So, you know, there are people that are really

397
00:23:46,706 --> 00:23:50,442
passionate about it. But, you know, there's also, you know, it's a big business. You

398
00:23:50,458 --> 00:23:54,226
know, wine business. Well, it is a big business. You know,

399
00:23:54,290 --> 00:23:57,642
the funny thing, this company started in the seventies, and it started

400
00:23:57,698 --> 00:24:01,338
really once it got into a direct to consumer, mail order

401
00:24:01,386 --> 00:24:05,116
type company. It really was relying on the fact that you're going to find

402
00:24:05,180 --> 00:24:08,996
good stuff available. I mean, I used to buy odd pallets

403
00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:12,704
from Sebastiani they made and never tried to sell or pay. My

404
00:24:13,284 --> 00:24:16,852
port I was able to find, and so. But those things are gone now. They

405
00:24:16,868 --> 00:24:20,652
don't. Everybody's bringing in this junk. Like I talked about earlier,

406
00:24:20,828 --> 00:24:24,324
they bring in 50 centiliter white wine from Spain. They put it into 20 different

407
00:24:24,364 --> 00:24:27,116
labels, and they make it look really good. And they put it out there, people

408
00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:30,906
buy it, and then they go, ah, yeah, right. This

409
00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:34,494
wasn't that great. And this is a bad thing for the industry. Yeah. I mean,

410
00:24:35,034 --> 00:24:38,570
you're killing the golden goose. It doesn't make sense to me.

411
00:24:38,602 --> 00:24:42,322
But once again, I'm not the one making decisions at these other companies. I'm

412
00:24:42,338 --> 00:24:46,090
just making my decision. And our aim is true.

413
00:24:46,162 --> 00:24:49,738
And there's lots of fantastic winemakers here in the US

414
00:24:49,826 --> 00:24:53,094
and Europe, and you've. Seen

415
00:24:53,674 --> 00:24:57,320
now that this, you know, you're doing what you're doing, and that's

416
00:24:57,432 --> 00:25:00,392
what you need to be doing and continue to do. But do you see these

417
00:25:00,448 --> 00:25:02,884
global shifts affecting your business?

418
00:25:04,024 --> 00:25:07,264
Let's just take white claw. Ready to drink cocktails, non alcoholic

419
00:25:07,304 --> 00:25:11,112
wines, orange wines, all these things that have, which, in

420
00:25:11,128 --> 00:25:14,240
my opinion, are just ebbs and flows, and we always had them. We had Bartles

421
00:25:14,272 --> 00:25:17,784
and James. Exactly. Wine coolers. You nailed it. They just kind of come and go.

422
00:25:17,824 --> 00:25:21,432
Yeah. Thank you for your support. Yeah. Bartles and

423
00:25:21,448 --> 00:25:24,808
James, California corps, you had where

424
00:25:24,896 --> 00:25:28,464
microbrews got really important. The ready to drink

425
00:25:28,584 --> 00:25:32,224
happened because of COVID because people couldn't go to a bar, and people are

426
00:25:32,264 --> 00:25:35,576
not really that much into mixing their own drinks at home. So it was easy

427
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,464
way to do it. But bars are now open. People

428
00:25:39,504 --> 00:25:43,032
can go and socialize. Pubs are open. Wine bars and

429
00:25:43,048 --> 00:25:46,672
restaurants are open. You've had these things all through.

430
00:25:46,768 --> 00:25:50,416
Same with

431
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,410
the white claw and so forth. The thing is, you know, let's say

432
00:25:54,442 --> 00:25:57,626
you're in Seattle, you're gonna go to see baseball, and, you know, your friends all

433
00:25:57,650 --> 00:26:01,346
drinking beer, but you don't really like beer that much, but you drink one anyways.

434
00:26:01,530 --> 00:26:05,098
Or. Or you go, you get a glass of wine, but the

435
00:26:05,106 --> 00:26:08,266
wine's not very good that you're gonna get these stadiums. You know, it's always these

436
00:26:08,290 --> 00:26:12,114
big, big brands. And then you have this fresh, fruity thing to drink instead

437
00:26:12,154 --> 00:26:15,210
because you don't really want beer. You don't want a glass of wine. That sucks.

438
00:26:15,402 --> 00:26:19,122
So you drink this so it has a purpose. I mean, yeah, that's true.

439
00:26:19,178 --> 00:26:22,702
Seltzer does have a purpose. And the thing is, it's an alternative

440
00:26:22,798 --> 00:26:26,318
bubbly, cold beverage for people that probably don't like beer. You

441
00:26:26,326 --> 00:26:30,126
know, you said something profound, actually, because you

442
00:26:30,150 --> 00:26:33,766
just separated the consumerism of wine.

443
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:37,582
The people we need to have do this. My dad once was driving

444
00:26:37,638 --> 00:26:41,294
a nap in 74, stopped at the Sutter home, met a guy named Bob

445
00:26:41,334 --> 00:26:45,142
Trincaro, and they tasted a white, pink wine. And so that brought a

446
00:26:45,158 --> 00:26:48,672
lot of people to the wine trade that weren't drinking wine before. Right. And then

447
00:26:48,688 --> 00:26:52,240
they learned that you don't have to drink sweet peak wine. No, but I mean,

448
00:26:52,432 --> 00:26:56,192
I mean, what is it? Sutter home white Zimmerdale. I mean,

449
00:26:56,208 --> 00:26:59,768
that's millions of people starting to drink wine. That's right. I

450
00:26:59,776 --> 00:27:03,296
mean, we needed that. And it created, it helped create the

451
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:07,136
expanse of the american wine trade. So myself to

452
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,560
set her home for that for sure. Thank you. Maybe the white claws of the

453
00:27:10,592 --> 00:27:13,848
world are kind of necessary to get started. Or the

454
00:27:13,896 --> 00:27:17,628
sparkling, canned, you know, brooch, the stuff that people.

455
00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:21,324
Yeah, you gotta start somewhere. And we just, and then you stay the course

456
00:27:21,484 --> 00:27:24,884
with the Charles Smith brands and you, when they're

457
00:27:24,924 --> 00:27:28,708
ready, have an honest glass of wine. Yeah. And that's why

458
00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:32,316
I call it now an honest glass. Yeah. True wine. That's true.

459
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:36,340
Absolutely. You know, it's been, we're out of time already, which is unbelievable.

460
00:27:36,412 --> 00:27:39,716
No kidding. Yeah. It went so down, so smooth and

461
00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:43,556
easy. Well, I know you have an important day today. What, what is after your

462
00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:47,336
next meeting you have, you're here for a few

463
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,040
more days in Los Angeles or what are you doing? Yeah, I'm here in the

464
00:27:50,192 --> 00:27:53,760
Bay Area. I was just there. I'm here in

465
00:27:53,832 --> 00:27:57,244
southern California for today and tomorrow. And like I said, then I'm off

466
00:27:58,824 --> 00:28:02,604
meeting old client, long time clients, new clients,

467
00:28:03,264 --> 00:28:07,080
going around, talking about my wine, drinking some wine, hopefully drinking some good wine

468
00:28:07,112 --> 00:28:10,224
today, tonight at dinner. And I'll be out in Venice beach

469
00:28:10,264 --> 00:28:13,992
tonight. I'm just out running around. I think probably for lunch, we're

470
00:28:14,008 --> 00:28:17,440
gonna probably go grab some little mexican food and wash it down with ice cold

471
00:28:17,472 --> 00:28:20,736
beer. Well, there's a few places around here I can tell you turn you onto,

472
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,044
and I think it's really important what you're doing. As I wrap this up, because

473
00:28:25,424 --> 00:28:28,684
experience, I think because I spent

474
00:28:29,784 --> 00:28:33,328
ten years digitally marketing, I sent

475
00:28:33,376 --> 00:28:37,152
33 million emails my last full year in business here. So you

476
00:28:37,168 --> 00:28:40,600
know what it takes to create all that? And half a million dollars on

477
00:28:40,632 --> 00:28:44,314
Facebook, a million dollars on Google Ads, all those things.

478
00:28:45,014 --> 00:28:48,790
It's the conclusion I've come to. It's all going to implode

479
00:28:48,902 --> 00:28:52,486
because you cannot deliver as many messages that are being

480
00:28:52,510 --> 00:28:56,334
delivered to everybody's phone and sell enough to cover the cost to do all

481
00:28:56,374 --> 00:29:00,094
this. And it's going to go back to what you're doing today. Well, there's going

482
00:29:00,094 --> 00:29:02,294
to be a point where people are just going to put their phone down because

483
00:29:02,334 --> 00:29:06,166
they realize they don't have a life any longer. They'll go to a restaurant.

484
00:29:06,190 --> 00:29:09,552
You see six people in their twenties all sitting around, you know,

485
00:29:09,648 --> 00:29:13,328
attractive, nice looking people at a nice restaurant, and they're all staring at their phones

486
00:29:13,376 --> 00:29:16,592
and put their phone down and look at each other, you know? I mean, can

487
00:29:16,608 --> 00:29:20,160
you talk to my wife? But no, I'm kidding. Just kidding. Yeah. Well,

488
00:29:20,312 --> 00:29:22,888
such a. Such a pleasure having you here, Charles. I hope we can do it

489
00:29:22,896 --> 00:29:26,624
again one day. I'm available. Maybe up and. Maybe up in Walla wall. We do.

490
00:29:26,664 --> 00:29:30,164
Yeah. Wayne, come visit me up in Walla wall or at my winery in Seattle.

491
00:29:30,744 --> 00:29:34,452
House of Smith, Jet City. You're on. Yep. Cheers.

492
00:29:34,648 --> 00:29:35,464
Cheers.

493
00:29:44,244 --> 00:29:47,580
Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul, Callum, Cary. And don't forget to

494
00:29:47,612 --> 00:29:50,764
subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.

495
00:29:50,924 --> 00:29:54,284
Folks, have a great time out there in the wine world. Cheers.