A Master Of Wine, A Master Of Fine Arts..And Common Sense, Meet Susan Lin

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Most things I've ended up doing in my life, like the Master of Fine Arts

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and other things is I just, honestly, I had to do it. There was a

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fire in my belly. I wanted to learn and I always want to learn and

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I, once I start learning, I really don't want to stop, sit back

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and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with

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Paul K. Hey, welcome to Wine

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Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in a beautiful, actually not

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beautiful, sort of a rainy, blustery day here in Southern California. About to have a

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conversation with Susan Lin, the master of wine here and a master of Fine

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Arts. Introductions in just a moment. Hey, have a listen to our

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new podcast called Song of America. It's coming out shortly and we're going to

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talk conversations about immigration to America

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and success by doing that, either financial, political or social.

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It's a great conversation, starting with the Agonian brothers, world

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renowned racing history in America. But now, while

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we're here, here to have a conversation with Susan Lin. Welcome to the show.

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Thank you very much, Paul. It's wonderful to be here. We had such a

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nice conversation off camera prior to doing this. I'm looking forward to having this

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conversation. But it's raining in Northern California as well. That's

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right. The wind is blowing, the leaves are rustling. Hopefully you can't hear me. We're

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bracing for flooding. And I live right here in the foothills of

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Southern California where my daughter was displaced by the fire. So fortunately did not

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lose her house. But man, you should see the mud flow

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when it rains like this. I can only imagine. I hope you

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stay safe. It's just as scary as, you know, the fires were

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anyway. Oh, wow. I want to talk to you a little bit about wine, of

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course, and we're going to talk about wine and music and.

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But the Master of Wine is a really hard and

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difficult process to embrace and to continue with. I

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have an anecdotal story about my attempt, but what

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got you, why would you do that? Like, why would

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you take that five or seven years of your life and commit it to

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wine? Well, the passion starts from way, way

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longer before that for sure. But the more immediate answer is like

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most things I've ended up doing in my life, like the Master of Fine

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Arts and other things, is I just, honestly, I had to do

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it. There was a fire in my belly. I just didn't. I wanted to learn

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and I always want to learn and I, once I start learning, I really don't

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want to stop. Like, once, you know, more the more you know, you

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don't know. And the more curiosity and wonder there is for the world

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and everything that we can learn and share from each other

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and within ourselves. And it's just kind of a wonderful

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virtual and sometimes vicious cycle because, you know, of course, that kind of

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study is pretty brutal, and it's very, very

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much exercise in management

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of time, emotions, spirit,

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all sorts of things, but very, very much worth it.

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The wine was prior to the Master of Fine Arts,

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or you were a musician prior to the wine.

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Enthusiasm. Thank you for asking. I was a musician prior to

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the wine, obviously, because training in that kind of

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performance art starts way before legal drinking age in this

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country. I guess that makes a ton of sense.

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I thought of it that way. That

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said, wine was introduced to me quite early

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by my. My maternal grandfather, and it's to him that

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I must thank for my introduction to wine and my

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understanding of what a wonderful beverage like wine and

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even wonderful spirits like cognac can have

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on the. The wonderful effect of bringing people together and

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bringing kind of camaraderie and magic that is absolutely has.

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Has no definition. It's something so

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special. It really is. When. When I used to be

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very young, my grandparents lived in the United States before they returned to

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Shanghai. I was lucky enough to be able to go to a lot of dinners

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at their house. And we had the kids.

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Everybody had the kids eat first, and then we shant us off to the living

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room to play so that the adults could actually have their time together, which I

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think is a really smart thing to do. And. But afterwards,

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you know, when the kids went to the living room, I didn't want to go

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because every time my grandpa would bring out some sort of bottle and something

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magical would happen. Yeah, that would be around the

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tables. Yeah, yeah. And I thought the labels were

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so attractive. I wanted to know what was

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happening. And my grandpa, he really treated me like

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an adult, and he shared with me, he taught me

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what he knew, which was to lead by example, because he

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loved talking about these with the people gathered around the table, the

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adults. And he. He let me sit in on that, and he would let me

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taste little bits. And to this day, my mom says she has no. She had

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no idea that I was tasting wine and spirits. When I was

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really little. He would literally just, you know, pour something and slide a glass across

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the table silently. And then I would take a sip, and then I would

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slide it back across the table silently while everybody else was

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talking. And from there,

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I was always studying piano among other instruments

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like the trumpet Et cetera. But piano is my main instrument still.

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And I was playing in hotels

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and restaurants to get some work experience and to earn some

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money while I was going to school. And I would see

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this ritual replaying with what was happening

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at these restaurants. People, they would share a drink together,

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talking business or, you know, just having wonderful conversation

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and the ritual of the opening the bottle or the bringing of the drinks. And

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between sets, I would talk with the bartenders and ask them, you

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know, what their life was and everything. I mean, I know it was underage at

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the time, so it's pretty amazing that they let me hang around that. But I

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was just the pianist, so it was okay. Right. Who is this girl asking us

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questions about stuff? She's supposed to be playing the piano. You know, this is interesting

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thought though, that you just said, here you are as a young, a young girl

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and you're parents had no interest in what their father was

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doing, but you grabbed an interest. And it's kind of an

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interesting overlay to humanity and wine because not

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everybody grasps it like you have. Not everybody is

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curious. I think every generation becomes curious at some point in

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their lifespan and some are later than others. But it's

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interesting that your immediate family, that there was an interest in sort of

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a generation skipping. Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting too because

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my parents don't really drink. So it's just my grandfather, my

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father. Wasn'T a wine guy. He didn't get interested in wine

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until being raised in Cairo under

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the English protectorate. He wasn't, you know, he

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was just exposed to wine through that. But he was sent to

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the pharmacy, pharmacy actually at this point to get a liter of

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sweet and a liter of dry kind of thing. Oh. But it wasn't until

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Queen Elizabeth came to America in 1959 to meet Eisenhower

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that he bought a case of Krug Special

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select that. That sort of lit. Lit the idea. And I

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thank my father every day, even though he passed a few years ago,

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for exposing me. And I say exposed because he

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can't teach you this affinity or this desire, but

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he can certainly expose you to it. And that sounds. Happened in your family.

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Yeah. So you were, you were a musician first. You know, this is

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interesting. I did a. I had a Sardinian wine here, pretty sure it

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was Sardinian, where the Bose Manufacturing

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company put vines in a room. Are you aware of this

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study? No, actually I'm not. Okay. So they put. They played

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classical music to a vine in a, in a soundproof room and they

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played rock and roll music to a vine In a soundproof room. And the

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vine, the vines grew away from the rock and roll and towards

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the orchestrated music. You've not heard this?

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This is so interesting. No, I'm so glad you mentioned this because I have read

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so many studies in my own research and in all

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my projects and everything that I do. But what amazes me and what delights

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me so much is there are always more. And I'm so happy that people are

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interested in this and want to experiment with that. They

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now have a huge Bose stereo system

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or amplification system in the VI on the

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island of. I believe it's Sardinia. And so have you

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had any other studies or any relationships where wine or

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manufacturing of wine and music have synergy?

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Well, certainly many people have and many producers have

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and are working with music in the vine growing

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process. Like Chateau Palmer is one of them. And, you know, they love jazz over

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there, so they play a lot of jazz in the box. And, you know,

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and it's, it's, you know, they're the

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fermentation areas. And then of course, the

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in barrel. There's a lot of people experimenting with different types of

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vibrations. People are doing this with, with bourbon too. I mean,

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like, there's. I'm trying, I'm trying to remember the, the producer, but there

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was definitely one bourbon distiller who, who

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exclusively uses Metallica or something like that. And I thought that was very

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interesting because they want their ones like, they want their, their spirit to have that

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character. Um, but I'd like to be able to do a study

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where you isolate just frequencies so you don't

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actually have the, the other elements of music which make it so

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complex and so characterful and wonderful and that reach our senses.

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But for the, you know, for something more of a

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isolated scientific experiment, it would be really great just to have certain

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barrels exposed to certain frequencies over a long period of

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time. And that's something that I'd like to explore doing with a winemaker who

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is. Who was willing to. And interested in what the results of

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that might be? Well, you know, they talk about wine and my dad used to

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say this, and he was a chemist by trade. It's a living

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thing to the extent that it doesn't have a heart and blood, but it certainly

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is evolving. And there's a process going on in the bottle and in

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the tank, and maybe there's an influence there. But what is your specialty then? You

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wrote a thesis on the idea of perception of

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wine and music hand in hand of some sort.

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Yeah. So the thesis that I wrote was actually not

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from the viticulture or the maturation

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process, but actually from the finished product

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and the sensory perception of

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anybody tasting the finished wine. So the name of the

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paper was somewhat long and unwieldy, but it is academic. So it's

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the influences of classical music on the

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sensory perception of a Brut non vintage Champag.

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So. Well, non vintage. And that was. That was very specific.

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Yes, because for any experiment, you have to. You have to make sure that the

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scope is manageable, that you can. That your data will actually make sense.

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Right. You know, of course, I'd like to do many more. So,

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you know, I. I've worked on smaller experiments since

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then, maybe not as big as this one, because I had 71 participants

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over eight different sessions with nine to 11 participants each,

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each one of. Each one of them with tasting order music.

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Music order randomized specifically through

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a Williams design Latin square randomization technique. And, you know,

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all those other things that come with a. A scientific

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framework for any experiment. Right. So

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I've been doing this cheaper to. Have it non vintage.

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Right. Well, one of the. One of the reasons that I wanted to

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do it for this experiment was because I wanted something that was very

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largely commercially relevant. Grootnov vintage is a tremendous

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category. And the wine that I chose specifically

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was through, again, research on

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consistency across markets,

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on the sort of dosage tasting and all that sort of thing,

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because they can differ wildly between markets, dosage

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rates and other things like that. So I wanted one that was very, very

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consistent and that had a really great market presence.

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And of course, none of the people who took part in the experiment knew

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anything about what the experiment was, so they didn't know any of this.

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But all that background work, of course, was very important to setting this

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up in a way such that the data would be

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useful and not confounding. You write this paper and you come to a

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conclusion. Did the conclusion

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support the premise that you started with, or did you find something

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different about the perception of wine through,

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particularly in this particular case, not vintage champagne, with the

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introduction of music. So the simple answer

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to the question is both, because there's always surprises in any

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experiment. Right. And the thing that I was

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most terrified of was there would be absolutely

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no, you know, no effect at all. But if that was the case, I would

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still write that paper because that would be important to know, Right?

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That's right. I'm always going to let any of my personal thoughts get in the

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way of this. But. But actually, among the 71

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participants, there definitely was statistically Significant

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evidence towards an actual influence, but in very

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specific ways. Not every element was. Was

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statistically significant. And the ones that were, were

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really interesting. And then there were several things that. That did surprise

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me as well. So. So just to give a premise of

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this, it was the one wine, as you noticed in the title, it was

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Brut, not Brutnant vintage Champagne,

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singular. So it was one control wine

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and four different pieces of music that were carefully

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chosen across a quadrant of different types

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of combinations of musical elements. Right. Because, you know, music

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has so many different textures. Right. And it can be fast, it can be

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slow, it could be bright and

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jumpy, or smooth and deep sounding, all those

233
00:14:14,276 --> 00:14:18,012
things. So I kind of had this quadrant and I

234
00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:21,372
made sure that there was a representative piece in every one of those

235
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quadrants that hit all those combinations. And I worked

236
00:14:25,068 --> 00:14:28,396
with my past professors in my master's

237
00:14:28,428 --> 00:14:31,980
program to make sure that the pieces

238
00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:35,294
fit those and vetted it through them as well.

239
00:14:35,462 --> 00:14:39,294
So. So there was also a silence

240
00:14:39,342 --> 00:14:43,086
control. So people would listen and they would taste the glasses.

241
00:14:43,118 --> 00:14:46,222
They had no idea what was happening, what this was for. They just like having

242
00:14:46,246 --> 00:14:49,502
a free glass of wine. Right. This is great. Yeah. Five glasses in front of

243
00:14:49,526 --> 00:14:53,246
them. Five glasses in front of them. And. And they would,

244
00:14:53,318 --> 00:14:56,990
and, and would listen to. I would play each piece and they would,

245
00:14:57,030 --> 00:15:00,852
you know, rate from 1 to 9 on all these different things, like,

246
00:15:00,876 --> 00:15:04,372
you know, the different characteristics of the wine. Freshness, like

247
00:15:04,396 --> 00:15:08,120
acidity. Right. Fruitiness, complexity,

248
00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:12,628
richness. You know, things like that. You know, one of those

249
00:15:12,684 --> 00:15:16,148
very characteristic things that we would want to know about any wine.

250
00:15:16,244 --> 00:15:19,892
Right. And then also they did how much they

251
00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:23,732
liked the wine and, you know, and then we

252
00:15:23,756 --> 00:15:26,932
did this for the music. How much did they like? How much did they like

253
00:15:26,956 --> 00:15:30,400
the music? How would they rate it? Would they rate it as, you

254
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,888
know, calm or exciting

255
00:15:34,064 --> 00:15:37,824
or character of the music? Right. And we also did this

256
00:15:37,832 --> 00:15:41,280
for the wine as well, so that we would have an analog. Like, was this

257
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,880
wine calm or exciting? That sort of

258
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,592
character type of thing. And it was so interesting

259
00:15:48,656 --> 00:15:52,064
as I spent a month crunching the data. And this is

260
00:15:52,152 --> 00:15:55,904
literally right before the pandemic lockdown. So I'm

261
00:15:55,952 --> 00:15:59,712
really happy that I hustled and got my experiment together. And I did all

262
00:15:59,736 --> 00:16:03,116
my live experiments in December. Wow.

263
00:16:03,228 --> 00:16:06,812
Yeah. Without a mask. Yeah. And,

264
00:16:06,916 --> 00:16:10,092
yeah, because we could all get together and be like, you know, in person and

265
00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:13,932
drinking there's. And tasting wines, you know, all that sort of thing. And then in

266
00:16:13,956 --> 00:16:17,660
January, I crunched all the data and then through February, and then

267
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:21,372
lockdown happened. And I had all the pandemic to analyze my data and

268
00:16:21,396 --> 00:16:25,180
write this paper. So it was very interesting. So it's really,

269
00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:29,004
it's a. It's relatively recent. And I was a marketing research student

270
00:16:29,052 --> 00:16:32,498
at usc and we used a product called sas

271
00:16:32,674 --> 00:16:36,354
and it was basically takes all that data. Now, of

272
00:16:36,362 --> 00:16:40,162
course, we had to use virtually a mainframe to crunch data back then, and

273
00:16:40,186 --> 00:16:42,978
now you can do it on your phone, probably with the same app. But that's

274
00:16:42,994 --> 00:16:45,986
the interesting thing that you just did. Let's get back to sort of the practical

275
00:16:46,018 --> 00:16:49,538
part of this. You had two parallel interests in your life. You're a Master of

276
00:16:49,594 --> 00:16:53,270
Fine Arts, you're a piano player, you sing, you play the trumpet.

277
00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:57,794
And you were exposed to wine as a young girl and had this affinity

278
00:16:57,842 --> 00:17:01,632
towards the subject. And you bring them together. And it

279
00:17:01,656 --> 00:17:05,360
would seem to me not unlike going

280
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,672
on vacation and having a glass of Chianti at a

281
00:17:08,696 --> 00:17:12,160
trattoria in Italy. And that tasting different

282
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,968
to you when you get home with the same wine. And because

283
00:17:16,024 --> 00:17:19,248
the experience has changed, but you've put it in sort of a lab

284
00:17:19,304 --> 00:17:22,672
environment, change the experience, and came up with

285
00:17:22,856 --> 00:17:25,980
actionable. I mean, is it actionable data or just

286
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,712
academic data that we can now say, yeah, this, there

287
00:17:30,736 --> 00:17:34,456
is a experiential difference between what you're drinking

288
00:17:34,488 --> 00:17:37,800
and what you're listening to. So, yeah, the results were really

289
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,560
interesting actually, because some of it corroborated some of the data that

290
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,432
had come in the studies before, before me. But

291
00:17:45,536 --> 00:17:48,984
I was really, really surprised that there were no studies that focused specifically

292
00:17:49,032 --> 00:17:52,866
on a sparkling wine, because with the presence of. Of carbon

293
00:17:52,898 --> 00:17:56,722
dioxide in these bubbles, I mean, it really makes a difference. And so I

294
00:17:56,746 --> 00:18:00,370
really wanted to focus on that. And what was really

295
00:18:00,410 --> 00:18:04,114
interesting was that pieces that were, that had fast

296
00:18:04,162 --> 00:18:07,922
tempo and had a generally a higher pitch, so the

297
00:18:07,946 --> 00:18:11,794
tones were a little bit higher, were generally

298
00:18:11,922 --> 00:18:15,170
perceived as much more fresh,

299
00:18:15,330 --> 00:18:18,630
refreshing, vibrant and effervescent.

300
00:18:18,990 --> 00:18:22,678
And the piece that was

301
00:18:22,734 --> 00:18:26,550
the exciting, bright and light and had those

302
00:18:26,590 --> 00:18:30,198
characteristics was deemed the

303
00:18:30,254 --> 00:18:34,054
best wine of all. When, however, people listened to that because it was

304
00:18:34,062 --> 00:18:37,846
the same wine, but people didn't know this and everybody thought

305
00:18:37,918 --> 00:18:41,606
the wines were different except for out of 71 participants,

306
00:18:41,798 --> 00:18:45,270
70 people thought the wines were different. And we had a great

307
00:18:45,310 --> 00:18:49,094
split between people who were, who were really, you know, wine

308
00:18:49,142 --> 00:18:52,742
professionals, people who are master's, wine students, master song, you know, things

309
00:18:52,766 --> 00:18:56,502
like that, people in industry to just, you know, half of

310
00:18:56,526 --> 00:19:00,214
people who were just wine enthusiasts who enjoy wine but don't

311
00:19:00,262 --> 00:19:03,446
really study. And it was the same around music too. There were people who loved

312
00:19:03,478 --> 00:19:06,374
classical music, who hated classical music, didn't study music, you know, all that sort of

313
00:19:06,382 --> 00:19:10,070
thing. So I did the, I did the statistical analysis to make sure

314
00:19:10,110 --> 00:19:13,956
that that wasn't a confounding factor. And I was lucky to have gotten a good

315
00:19:14,038 --> 00:19:17,800
split. Pretty much 50, 50 of all the different types. And it was

316
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,980
crazy because the wine that

317
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,256
was tasted in silence regards across the eight

318
00:19:25,408 --> 00:19:29,240
groups, and this was completely in different order each time. That

319
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,760
wine was terrible. The wine that was tasted in the silence was terrible.

320
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,632
Even when somebody said, people said, oh, my gosh, this is

321
00:19:36,656 --> 00:19:40,402
Mazorski's pictures at exhibition. I hate this piece. Good Lord.

322
00:19:40,466 --> 00:19:43,186
And you know what? That wine was still way better than the one that didn't

323
00:19:43,218 --> 00:19:46,914
have music with it. Isn't that crazy? Wow. No wonder that surprised me a

324
00:19:46,922 --> 00:19:50,546
lot. I mean, I still get the shivers when I relay

325
00:19:50,578 --> 00:19:54,258
this because it was just so. I mean, I went through my data

326
00:19:54,314 --> 00:19:57,762
over and over again to be like, really, like, I mean,

327
00:19:57,786 --> 00:20:01,554
even, you know, the wine professionals, when they say, like, you know, people training

328
00:20:01,602 --> 00:20:05,266
for massive exams, like, you know, WSET or

329
00:20:05,338 --> 00:20:09,010
the Guild of Master Songwriters or mw, they would, they would say,

330
00:20:09,050 --> 00:20:12,818
specifically listening to anything while tasting is

331
00:20:12,874 --> 00:20:16,706
absolutely, you know, it's taboo. Like, we don't want anything

332
00:20:16,738 --> 00:20:20,530
to be interfering with our process. Right. Wow, that's. And then

333
00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:23,282
be like, so listening to music. I don't like listening to music with this. But

334
00:20:23,306 --> 00:20:26,946
you know what? The wine without any music with it was just the worst wine.

335
00:20:26,978 --> 00:20:30,242
It scored lowest on effervescence. It was flat, it was

336
00:20:30,266 --> 00:20:33,510
unbalanced, it was bitter, too acidic. Wow.

337
00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:37,720
But really pretty granular in its change.

338
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:41,724
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it was the least liked

339
00:20:41,772 --> 00:20:45,292
wine all across the board. And even when somebody didn't like the

340
00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:48,972
music, the wine was way better and way more

341
00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:52,760
imbalanced. And just, you know, it was so interesting because

342
00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:57,100
there were two pieces that were deemed probably the most

343
00:20:57,140 --> 00:21:00,908
favorable. I mean, well, the wines were rated

344
00:21:00,924 --> 00:21:04,316
the most favorable with two particular pieces of music

345
00:21:04,468 --> 00:21:08,108
and that they were two contrasting pieces, but they were both

346
00:21:08,244 --> 00:21:11,980
very fast and high pitched and with very dynamic articulation.

347
00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:15,228
Meaning it's not just really smooth tones, but like more

348
00:21:15,284 --> 00:21:18,588
jumpy, exciting. But one of them was very

349
00:21:18,644 --> 00:21:22,476
light. One of them was the finale to Camille

350
00:21:22,508 --> 00:21:26,204
Saintson's Carnival of the Animals. And if you've ever watched Fantasia

351
00:21:26,252 --> 00:21:29,836
2000 by Walt Disney, it's the one with the flamingos and the yo,

352
00:21:29,868 --> 00:21:33,274
yo. Oh, it's awesome. It's

353
00:21:33,322 --> 00:21:37,098
fun and it's just, it's very light. It's very jumping

354
00:21:37,194 --> 00:21:40,794
and people love that. They're like, this is bright and exciting wine.

355
00:21:40,922 --> 00:21:44,110
It's effervescent. It's just wonderful,

356
00:21:45,170 --> 00:21:48,954
just really, really lovely wine. One of the best wines.

357
00:21:49,002 --> 00:21:52,826
And then the other one on the other side was also exciting,

358
00:21:53,018 --> 00:21:56,682
was also high pitched, but instead of light, it was,

359
00:21:56,866 --> 00:22:00,714
it was passionate, it was bold. You know, it was

360
00:22:00,802 --> 00:22:04,394
Brahms Violin Concerto 3rd Movement, which is

361
00:22:04,482 --> 00:22:08,026
very, very tempestuous in a lot of ways and extremely

362
00:22:08,058 --> 00:22:11,002
passionate. They rated that one as, yeah, very, very

363
00:22:11,026 --> 00:22:14,650
effervescent, very bold, but richer, much

364
00:22:14,690 --> 00:22:18,458
more complex. And listen, it was like, it was almost like

365
00:22:18,514 --> 00:22:21,994
they were describing a vintage campaign at that

366
00:22:22,002 --> 00:22:25,622
point. It's fascinating for a couple of reasons. One, it

367
00:22:25,646 --> 00:22:29,286
explains why when I, my wife's giving me the silent treatment, my wine doesn't

368
00:22:29,318 --> 00:22:32,998
taste as good. A few more other aspects of that

369
00:22:33,054 --> 00:22:36,742
that I could appreciate that. So now I understand that part, that aspect of my

370
00:22:36,766 --> 00:22:40,262
home life. But, you know, I wonder if this. I want to get on some

371
00:22:40,286 --> 00:22:43,942
other subjects, but I wonder if this affects like I, you know,

372
00:22:43,966 --> 00:22:47,526
spent my life tasting wine on Tuesday mornings for 35 years

373
00:22:47,598 --> 00:22:51,006
and, and went to hundreds of probably trade

374
00:22:51,078 --> 00:22:54,766
tastings within a variety of environments. And you don't

375
00:22:54,798 --> 00:22:58,142
even think about that fact that maybe the background

376
00:22:58,206 --> 00:23:02,014
noise, the general noise or the background music being played at a

377
00:23:02,022 --> 00:23:05,406
restaurant. I was just at a Melrose restaurant at a tasting

378
00:23:05,438 --> 00:23:08,690
and, and you know, there's music in the restaurant.

379
00:23:09,030 --> 00:23:12,622
There might be an effect on what I'm tasting based on

380
00:23:12,646 --> 00:23:16,368
what's being played besides what snacks they have and things.

381
00:23:16,494 --> 00:23:19,720
Yes, absolutely. That's kind of interesting. And so

382
00:23:20,020 --> 00:23:23,244
the, the Master of Wine folks, this is your thesis for your Master of Wine,

383
00:23:23,292 --> 00:23:26,972
correct? Yes. Do you think you're crazy like doing this or did

384
00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:30,716
they have a supportive position on it or that were they

385
00:23:30,788 --> 00:23:34,460
anxiously waiting for the results? Well, see, what it is,

386
00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:38,332
is, you know. You mean the, the examiner team. Yes. When they read it.

387
00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:42,172
Okay. I have no idea. Like the candidate doesn't know anything what

388
00:23:42,196 --> 00:23:45,948
happens. They're just, they're going through, I mean they have to look at every

389
00:23:46,004 --> 00:23:49,788
paper with a very judicious eye

390
00:23:49,884 --> 00:23:53,660
and make sure that it is a sound paper. There aren't

391
00:23:53,740 --> 00:23:56,200
holes in it. There aren't just

392
00:23:56,980 --> 00:24:00,684
allegations being made without being supported and making the framework

393
00:24:00,732 --> 00:24:04,524
is correct and the analysis, the sound, all those things. And so of

394
00:24:04,532 --> 00:24:08,012
course I was very much waiting on pins and

395
00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:11,830
needles for, for the, the phone call because they will call

396
00:24:11,870 --> 00:24:15,690
you and tell you whether you pass or you haven't.

397
00:24:16,030 --> 00:24:19,574
And wow. I, you know, so I, I don't know how

398
00:24:19,662 --> 00:24:23,222
they were feeling when. When they read this paper, but I only hope that it

399
00:24:23,246 --> 00:24:26,582
was very interesting for them. And then it was. It was somewhat of a. Of

400
00:24:26,606 --> 00:24:29,970
a pleasure to. To. To go through.

401
00:24:30,750 --> 00:24:34,534
But I remember that phone call so vividly because I was trying to calm

402
00:24:34,582 --> 00:24:38,142
myself, and I obviously could not calm myself. And I was sitting at the

403
00:24:38,166 --> 00:24:41,902
piano and playing and I played. I played

404
00:24:42,006 --> 00:24:45,774
pieces like three to five times faster than

405
00:24:45,862 --> 00:24:49,490
I would ever play them because I was so nervous. Yeah,

406
00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:53,966
slow it down. That's really interesting. So let's, let's delve into

407
00:24:54,038 --> 00:24:56,766
the MW a little bit. I had a great conversation, I told you, with Tim

408
00:24:56,838 --> 00:25:00,462
Hanai yesterday about some of this and, you know, the, the

409
00:25:00,486 --> 00:25:04,192
Master of Wine for the listeners, you know, probably the most coveted,

410
00:25:04,336 --> 00:25:07,984
difficult certification degree to get in the wine

411
00:25:08,032 --> 00:25:11,312
trade. But it's not as academic as I thought it

412
00:25:11,336 --> 00:25:15,024
was. There's a lot of practical study

413
00:25:15,112 --> 00:25:18,420
that comes to this, the marketplace,

414
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,640
you know, to flip it around. When I tasted wine,

415
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,432
I don't consider my skill set all that great, though. I can do

416
00:25:26,456 --> 00:25:30,304
it to describe wines and structure and the sensory part

417
00:25:30,312 --> 00:25:34,016
of it, but I certainly understand the value of any

418
00:25:34,088 --> 00:25:37,562
wine that I taste because I tasted so many 5, 10,

419
00:25:37,653 --> 00:25:41,360
15, 20 $500,000 bottles of wine in my career that, you know,

420
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,180
that's. I consider that my specialty. You can't do it all in this industry.

421
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,328
But it is. There is a practical side to the mw, not

422
00:25:49,384 --> 00:25:53,120
just blind tasting. Being able to describe character or

423
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,500
figure out a vintage or figure out a location of origin.

424
00:25:56,930 --> 00:26:00,762
Oh, it's much more than that. And that's why I thought it was a

425
00:26:00,786 --> 00:26:04,058
wonderful path to

426
00:26:04,194 --> 00:26:07,914
challenge myself with, because there is absolutely no textbook

427
00:26:07,962 --> 00:26:11,578
for this sort of thing. It's a breadth and

428
00:26:11,634 --> 00:26:15,290
depth of understanding of all aspects and all

429
00:26:15,330 --> 00:26:18,170
reaches of the industry. So starting with

430
00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:22,042
viticulture, from soil science to

431
00:26:22,226 --> 00:26:25,962
music in the vineyard. Yeah, I never learned that much

432
00:26:25,986 --> 00:26:29,782
about soil cationics exchange. It's fascinating

433
00:26:29,846 --> 00:26:33,318
stuff. Right. But, but, you know, going

434
00:26:33,374 --> 00:26:36,982
to go through those agricultural practices and what kind of, you

435
00:26:37,006 --> 00:26:40,710
know, economic and, and, you know, sustainability and other

436
00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:44,198
types of considerations there are that affect those decisions

437
00:26:44,294 --> 00:26:47,894
in, in, in agriculture and in grape growing, even what variety you choose,

438
00:26:47,942 --> 00:26:51,302
et cetera. And then, of course, going on to

439
00:26:51,326 --> 00:26:54,742
winemaking, the, the chemistry of winemaking, but also the,

440
00:26:54,846 --> 00:26:58,050
the. The decisions that come in there. Always, always

441
00:26:59,070 --> 00:27:02,806
economic and market pressures that affect

442
00:27:02,838 --> 00:27:06,182
decision making as well as, you know, what is the dream and what is the

443
00:27:06,206 --> 00:27:10,054
goal. Right. From everywhere, everything from bulk

444
00:27:10,102 --> 00:27:13,942
wine to Petrus. Right. So an understanding of

445
00:27:13,966 --> 00:27:17,702
all aspects of the market. And then, you know, the,

446
00:27:17,806 --> 00:27:21,542
basically the logistics side, which is really fascinating. I learned so

447
00:27:21,566 --> 00:27:25,140
much, you know, about, about QA and qc,

448
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,568
about, you know, just all the specifically specifics

449
00:27:29,584 --> 00:27:32,992
of transporting wine, what kind of, you know, like

450
00:27:33,016 --> 00:27:36,656
oxygen transfer rates when bottling, you know, Sarbanes,

451
00:27:36,688 --> 00:27:40,512
Oxley, all these other things, ISO standards. And you

452
00:27:40,536 --> 00:27:44,272
know, what, what is important to this and, and it really helps me

453
00:27:44,296 --> 00:27:47,872
appreciate so much more what goes into even, you know,

454
00:27:47,976 --> 00:27:51,814
just maybe not two buck chuck itself, but something like it.

455
00:27:51,902 --> 00:27:55,638
You know, it takes, it takes a bit to even get, you know, any bottle

456
00:27:55,654 --> 00:27:59,270
of wine out there. And of course, not all bottles of wine are created equal.

457
00:27:59,350 --> 00:28:03,046
Equal, but it's. Where is the, where, where's the effort?

458
00:28:03,078 --> 00:28:06,530
Where's the quality in context and for value?

459
00:28:06,990 --> 00:28:10,050
Really, really helps you appreciate that. And then of course,

460
00:28:10,830 --> 00:28:14,342
on paper 5, 4 and 5, the 4 is about the business of wine. So

461
00:28:14,366 --> 00:28:18,202
like you said, some very practical aspects, but always analyzed and

462
00:28:18,226 --> 00:28:21,978
synthesized and, and examined in a very academic

463
00:28:22,074 --> 00:28:25,370
way, which I really appreciate too, because you

464
00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:29,162
again, you know, not just Bordeaux, not just California, not

465
00:28:29,186 --> 00:28:32,330
just, but all around the world. And all different price points, all different categories because

466
00:28:32,370 --> 00:28:36,138
wine is a commercial product and it is

467
00:28:36,194 --> 00:28:39,850
available across so many different markets, so many different price points

468
00:28:39,970 --> 00:28:43,626
for so many different categories and use cases.

469
00:28:43,698 --> 00:28:46,810
Right. Is there another product that

470
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:50,862
is like wine in that. Yes, it's a commercial product. So I've been driven by

471
00:28:50,886 --> 00:28:54,090
consumerism. There are organizations throughout the world that

472
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:58,090
promote that and that actually support wineries in understanding that.

473
00:28:58,550 --> 00:29:02,334
But then there's this academic side which you studied and just not the

474
00:29:02,342 --> 00:29:05,662
least of which is studying music and the influence on the

475
00:29:05,686 --> 00:29:08,530
palette that is completely

476
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,592
not ignores, but is devoid of the commercial side. It's a whole

477
00:29:13,656 --> 00:29:17,272
study and I don't think one can exist without the other.

478
00:29:17,376 --> 00:29:21,224
In other words, if we remove profitability from the wine, would we have a

479
00:29:21,232 --> 00:29:24,536
different industry? Would we have a different product? Would we be only focused

480
00:29:24,568 --> 00:29:28,072
on terroir and character and driving

481
00:29:28,136 --> 00:29:31,832
those, those, those metrics? Yeah, that's a

482
00:29:31,856 --> 00:29:34,872
really interesting question. I love the way you put that because they do go hand

483
00:29:34,896 --> 00:29:38,392
in hand. I mean, I've always loved academics, but I also want to do

484
00:29:38,416 --> 00:29:42,224
things. And so I don't want to live in the proverbial ivory tower

485
00:29:42,272 --> 00:29:46,032
because I want something to. I want it to be useful, you know,

486
00:29:46,056 --> 00:29:49,088
and that's why I wanted to do this thesis as well in this particular study,

487
00:29:49,144 --> 00:29:52,864
because it does have implications for the presentation of wine.

488
00:29:52,992 --> 00:29:56,592
Right. Whether it's in a tasting room, in a restaurant, like you Mentioned earlier, I

489
00:29:56,616 --> 00:30:00,272
do a lot of research on, like, sort of retail atmospherics in a

490
00:30:00,296 --> 00:30:04,032
sense, like in restaurants or in tasting rooms, like, how do we calibrate the

491
00:30:04,056 --> 00:30:07,762
music? What kind of. What kind of clientele or what kind of feeling do you

492
00:30:07,786 --> 00:30:11,442
want in the a.m. versus the afternoon versus evening? You know,

493
00:30:11,466 --> 00:30:15,090
we're going from like, you know, Breakfast at Tiffany's to, like, you know,

494
00:30:15,130 --> 00:30:18,434
a nightclub at the end of the day. What kind of music, how many beats

495
00:30:18,482 --> 00:30:22,322
per minute? Right. How many beats per minute, decibel level? Because there is an

496
00:30:22,346 --> 00:30:26,194
effect on how. How people will order, how they will

497
00:30:26,282 --> 00:30:30,082
consume, how fast, how slow, you know, and that sort of thing. There is

498
00:30:30,106 --> 00:30:32,882
a lot of effect. So it's a lot of the research and work that I

499
00:30:32,906 --> 00:30:36,642
do now, too. It just hit me that I

500
00:30:36,666 --> 00:30:39,762
asked this question of winemakers quite frequently, and I get the variety of answers, and

501
00:30:39,786 --> 00:30:42,642
sometimes I only understand the question, like, what is the end game? We work on

502
00:30:42,666 --> 00:30:46,402
trellising, we work on understanding the micronutrient exchange at the

503
00:30:46,426 --> 00:30:50,162
tap root level and all the things that go into that. You studied at the

504
00:30:50,186 --> 00:30:54,018
mw. But what's the end game of that? And I'm

505
00:30:54,034 --> 00:30:56,510
waiting for them to tell me. This is about

506
00:30:57,210 --> 00:31:00,866
extracting the best terroir and making sure that every wine

507
00:31:00,898 --> 00:31:04,672
is expressive of its vintage and in soil. And maybe it's not,

508
00:31:04,776 --> 00:31:08,544
you know, maybe it's. Maybe the end game is just to sell more

509
00:31:08,712 --> 00:31:12,432
and to produce a wine that will be more commercially acceptable. And

510
00:31:12,456 --> 00:31:16,304
I'm not talking about, you know, apothic red and Josh and the wines are in

511
00:31:16,312 --> 00:31:19,552
the supermarket. I'm talking about a level of wine that is sophisticated,

512
00:31:19,616 --> 00:31:23,312
complex, and driven by, you know, its location and

513
00:31:23,336 --> 00:31:27,072
its vintage. But let's just focus on that marketplace. What is

514
00:31:27,096 --> 00:31:30,396
the end game, do you. Think, for these people who study the master of wine?

515
00:31:30,428 --> 00:31:34,028
Is that what you're asking? Well, no, the winemakers, what would the winemakers.

516
00:31:34,124 --> 00:31:37,820
What would be the end game of all the things

517
00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:41,532
that go into making wine to change? In other words, the

518
00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:45,196
Burgundians made wines in the 12th century, and they're different than today's Burgundies.

519
00:31:45,228 --> 00:31:48,972
Right. So why. And then if we are monitoring and checking all

520
00:31:48,996 --> 00:31:52,684
the metrics that we have and we know all these amazing statistics

521
00:31:52,732 --> 00:31:55,932
and chemistry breakdown of a wine these days, what's the end game? What are we

522
00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:59,640
trying to do? Yeah, of course, it depends on the person, but

523
00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:04,172
I'd like to think that, and especially in the conversations that you and I

524
00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:07,996
have had with producers and vintners, it seems

525
00:32:08,028 --> 00:32:11,720
like, you know, There is a vision of creating something

526
00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:15,920
and then there are outside pressures that will shape

527
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,240
what that original vision is. And

528
00:32:19,540 --> 00:32:23,164
the, you know, it's not always a compromise, but sometimes there are things that, you

529
00:32:23,172 --> 00:32:26,938
know, you, you, your vision evolves necessarily

530
00:32:27,034 --> 00:32:30,634
through, through the lens and the context and the parameters

531
00:32:30,682 --> 00:32:34,310
of those outside pressures. Right.

532
00:32:34,770 --> 00:32:37,802
So I think that really what it is, what it is and you know, I

533
00:32:37,826 --> 00:32:41,350
think about it in a way that, you know, we all,

534
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:45,482
we all want to be. If we want to put something out there, we

535
00:32:45,506 --> 00:32:49,146
would love it for people to like it and for people to like it,

536
00:32:49,218 --> 00:32:52,822
then it's like they will give you feedback if you're lucky. And

537
00:32:52,846 --> 00:32:56,598
then you decide whether you want to

538
00:32:56,654 --> 00:33:00,022
be liked in that way or not. Right. And there are tough choices to

539
00:33:00,046 --> 00:33:03,590
make about that. It's like, you know,

540
00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:07,526
when I decide, I've studied a lot of musicology along with performance

541
00:33:07,598 --> 00:33:11,126
practice for piano and music such that, you know, am I.

542
00:33:11,278 --> 00:33:14,730
So I'm faithful as much as I can to the composer,

543
00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:18,822
but yet where there are places where I can make an interpretation

544
00:33:18,886 --> 00:33:22,576
of this because it's coming from me and I have a vision and a dream

545
00:33:22,718 --> 00:33:26,316
of what this piece sounds like, you know, so other people might take

546
00:33:26,388 --> 00:33:30,172
issue with that. Like, you know, did Chopin really mean that, you know, in

547
00:33:30,196 --> 00:33:33,644
this passage here? But at the same time, and you want, you want your performance

548
00:33:33,732 --> 00:33:37,564
to be, to be liked. You want people to enjoy your playing so that, you

549
00:33:37,572 --> 00:33:40,268
know, they will, they will hire you again, they will want to hear your music

550
00:33:40,324 --> 00:33:44,012
again. At the same time, you can't play it if it's not coming from

551
00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:47,884
you. Right? But you have to really do all that groundwork and all

552
00:33:47,892 --> 00:33:51,532
the academic stuff and all the theory stuff and all the practical

553
00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:54,872
stuff like getting it in your fingers and get it in your body so you

554
00:33:54,896 --> 00:33:58,744
are true to the composer as you understand it and you've done your work

555
00:33:58,832 --> 00:34:02,504
there, but then the rest is up to you because it

556
00:34:02,592 --> 00:34:06,168
has to come from you and express that. And I think it's similar

557
00:34:06,224 --> 00:34:09,992
with winemakers who are dedicated to what they are creating and they have

558
00:34:10,016 --> 00:34:13,720
a vision. We all have a vision. We've done the work and we're still doing

559
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,560
the work. The work never ends. I mean, I'm learning more every time. I mean,

560
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,096
whatever piece that I've sat with for years, I'm learning something. New

561
00:34:21,168 --> 00:34:24,978
pieces take years and wines take years. And I think it's a very,

562
00:34:25,034 --> 00:34:28,482
very similar concept in that regard

563
00:34:28,626 --> 00:34:32,370
because it's, it's a never ending journey. But you do

564
00:34:32,410 --> 00:34:35,858
have to listen to, to, to what, what

565
00:34:35,994 --> 00:34:39,330
those outside pressures are, and especially if you do want to sell

566
00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:43,106
anything, but that's the case is that, you know, people

567
00:34:43,178 --> 00:34:46,962
will sometimes, if they have the luxury, not have to worry so much

568
00:34:46,986 --> 00:34:50,690
about that they don't have shareholders to answer to. They're able to make more

569
00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:53,929
decisions in the way that they wish or they have, you know, a lot of,

570
00:34:54,009 --> 00:34:57,833
they have a huge seed investment or funding to be able

571
00:34:57,841 --> 00:35:01,289
to work with and they can really shape the vision the way they want

572
00:35:01,329 --> 00:35:04,441
it and then see what people say and decide what they want to do there.

573
00:35:04,465 --> 00:35:07,269
And in others, they might have to, they might have to,

574
00:35:08,129 --> 00:35:11,481
you know, kind of capitulate a little bit more in the beginning, but then as

575
00:35:11,505 --> 00:35:13,629
they, as they gain

576
00:35:14,529 --> 00:35:18,361
renowned notoriety or what have you, then they will have the

577
00:35:18,385 --> 00:35:21,369
means to be able to do maybe a spin off project that really is more

578
00:35:21,409 --> 00:35:25,020
of their experience, direct expression of their dream. That's a

579
00:35:25,060 --> 00:35:28,828
really great analogy and it goes back to this scenario. I'll

580
00:35:28,844 --> 00:35:32,668
paint that in a second. But the idea that, you know, wine, I mean,

581
00:35:32,804 --> 00:35:35,884
music, right, Somebody could be very mathematically

582
00:35:36,012 --> 00:35:39,740
attuned to what music is. They

583
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:43,532
say, Dennis from, you know, the Beast Boys was a math genius when

584
00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:46,440
it came to music. And, and

585
00:35:46,820 --> 00:35:50,542
versus the passionate art of

586
00:35:50,646 --> 00:35:54,494
music, that will change the interpretation of the math,

587
00:35:54,622 --> 00:35:58,270
right? So you're going to play a thing. So this leads me to this

588
00:35:58,310 --> 00:36:01,662
question that I ask sometimes, which is maybe with

589
00:36:01,686 --> 00:36:05,262
your master of wine experience and what you've studied, we

590
00:36:05,286 --> 00:36:09,022
can peel it back a little further. And that is if I have

591
00:36:09,046 --> 00:36:12,878
a vineyard manager or winemaker who's been studied

592
00:36:12,974 --> 00:36:16,686
the Same vineyard for 25 years, he's made 25 vintages, she's

593
00:36:16,718 --> 00:36:20,364
made 25 vintages. And going into a vintage

594
00:36:20,412 --> 00:36:24,204
that you probably start to feel what we think is going to

595
00:36:24,212 --> 00:36:27,740
happen, we start to feel this, what this wine might

596
00:36:27,780 --> 00:36:31,340
be. We see the vines growing and we've got so much

597
00:36:31,380 --> 00:36:34,940
experience watching these vines and, and the change of

598
00:36:34,980 --> 00:36:38,652
weather in terroir that we start to form an

599
00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:41,996
opinion of what this vintage is going to be like, what it should taste like,

600
00:36:42,148 --> 00:36:45,820
versus somebody that's traveled the world, made 25

601
00:36:45,860 --> 00:36:49,356
different vintages at 25 different places. Armenia, Romania,

602
00:36:49,468 --> 00:36:52,664
South Americ, Bordeaux, Burgundy, you know, whatever,

603
00:36:52,712 --> 00:36:56,200
Spain. And you give them the same vineyard,

604
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,780
we end up with two different products completely. Right.

605
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,248
And wouldn't that be the same in music that if you had

606
00:37:04,304 --> 00:37:07,620
somebody who's well versed across

607
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,720
all forms of music on the piano versus one person that

608
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,420
only studies Bach and they both sit down and play the same piece,

609
00:37:15,930 --> 00:37:19,378
you get two different pieces. I mean, even

610
00:37:19,434 --> 00:37:22,946
when, even when there's musicians who have, you know, both

611
00:37:23,018 --> 00:37:26,562
have only studied Bach or, I mean, that's, it's a tough one. Or they're two

612
00:37:26,586 --> 00:37:30,386
Bach experts and you'll get two different pieces. I suppose

613
00:37:30,418 --> 00:37:34,146
that's right. Much less people who have like, you know, studied

614
00:37:34,178 --> 00:37:37,906
all the, you know, studied from like, you know, Scarlatti all the way to,

615
00:37:37,978 --> 00:37:41,752
to, you know, past, gosh,

616
00:37:41,946 --> 00:37:45,612
like, you know, John Adams or whatever, we would still sit down

617
00:37:45,636 --> 00:37:49,052
and like, you know, play maybe like the same Chopin nocturne that many people have

618
00:37:49,076 --> 00:37:52,604
played. And it would be very different for sure. I mean, like when I, if

619
00:37:52,612 --> 00:37:56,108
I'm listening to the, if I hear music or if I'm listening to the radio

620
00:37:56,124 --> 00:37:59,740
and I, I don't know who is, who is, who's playing sometimes, like, I'll,

621
00:37:59,820 --> 00:38:03,532
I'll know, like, oh, it's that person, you know, because if you've listened to their

622
00:38:03,556 --> 00:38:06,812
recordings enough and you know, you. Know, yeah, you can just tell. And they do

623
00:38:06,836 --> 00:38:10,250
that certain thing or, you know, whatever. You just have that sense. So it really

624
00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:13,850
is true. But it is an individual thing. And so

625
00:38:13,890 --> 00:38:17,402
absolutely. I mean, you will get two Chopin experts who will, who

626
00:38:17,426 --> 00:38:21,226
will violently disagree about a passage. It's so interesting

627
00:38:21,258 --> 00:38:24,410
because I used to talk about this to my customers in that, you know, if

628
00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:28,250
you, if you decorate your home with the same paintings artists,

629
00:38:28,330 --> 00:38:31,562
eventually you get a feel for that artist's painting and that everywhere you turn in

630
00:38:31,586 --> 00:38:35,338
your home you have a rendering or painting from the same artist

631
00:38:35,434 --> 00:38:38,950
and wines the same way. If you taste enough of

632
00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:43,290
one wineries, wines from the same winemaker, despite the

633
00:38:43,330 --> 00:38:47,146
varietal difference in the location of the vineyards, you start thematically

634
00:38:47,178 --> 00:38:50,874
to feel who this person is. And I think that makes a ton of

635
00:38:50,882 --> 00:38:54,730
sense and jives with this art of wine, not

636
00:38:54,770 --> 00:38:57,910
the science of it. Do you, do you keep up then with

637
00:38:58,850 --> 00:39:02,682
the market side of this? I mean, are you. You're so embedded in the

638
00:39:02,706 --> 00:39:06,402
academic side and, and, and the complexity of wine.

639
00:39:06,546 --> 00:39:10,386
But as a MW do on a daily basis or monthly, weekly,

640
00:39:10,418 --> 00:39:14,162
whatever it is, keep track of what's going on the consumer side in the

641
00:39:14,186 --> 00:39:17,314
marketplace, you know, what you see at the markets. Like, my wife hates it when

642
00:39:17,322 --> 00:39:19,538
I go to the market with her because I always go to the wine section

643
00:39:19,554 --> 00:39:23,170
to see what. To see what's going on. Of course, that's what we all

644
00:39:23,210 --> 00:39:27,010
do, right? Yes, I get it every day.

645
00:39:27,130 --> 00:39:30,930
Every day I look through at least three different news

646
00:39:30,970 --> 00:39:34,678
aggregate aggregation sites and I check all links. I see what's

647
00:39:34,694 --> 00:39:38,534
happening and I keep up with, with numbers because like in the work that I

648
00:39:38,542 --> 00:39:41,862
do too for retail I work with fine wines and so

649
00:39:41,886 --> 00:39:45,446
I'm often, I'm always looking at what the market will bear.

650
00:39:45,558 --> 00:39:49,158
I'm looking at auction prices, I'm looking

651
00:39:49,214 --> 00:39:51,850
at what is happening in the Livex indices,

652
00:39:53,230 --> 00:39:56,902
the research that comes out from Wine Market Council, things like

653
00:39:56,926 --> 00:40:00,340
that. So it's, and just the news in general like

654
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:04,360
you know, daily 750 the buyer mining girls like they always have some

655
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,232
really, really interesting like Wine Business Weekly. They

656
00:40:08,256 --> 00:40:11,976
always have really really great articles to, to

657
00:40:12,048 --> 00:40:15,144
see you know how the market is. And I also keep up with a restaurant

658
00:40:15,192 --> 00:40:18,984
and spirits constantly as well because the

659
00:40:18,992 --> 00:40:22,760
spirits industry is very important as well. And what's happening in restaurant on,

660
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,600
on, on premise, off premise for both of those. So I, I look a lot

661
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,466
at that through the Brown Forman newsletters. I highly

662
00:40:30,498 --> 00:40:32,910
recommend that. There's a lot of stuff happening in there

663
00:40:34,090 --> 00:40:37,602
and then the, the, the shanken also on what's happening with, with

664
00:40:37,626 --> 00:40:41,202
cannabis because that's really important to what, what that, how that might, you

665
00:40:41,226 --> 00:40:45,042
know, affect the beverage trade.

666
00:40:45,146 --> 00:40:48,350
Well it's interesting you mentioned that part

667
00:40:49,450 --> 00:40:53,138
particularly Brown Forman since that's going to be you know, the

668
00:40:53,194 --> 00:40:56,950
mega, mega cycle part of wine and the

669
00:40:56,990 --> 00:41:00,694
pure esoteric business side because that's what they're about. And

670
00:41:00,782 --> 00:41:04,010
actually I want to read you something I wrote as a response

671
00:41:05,230 --> 00:41:08,790
to the, the posting of the article where Constellation

672
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:12,598
possibly is selling off all their brands, you know, which is Mandavi et

673
00:41:12,614 --> 00:41:16,342
cetera. And so I just wrote as a colloquial comment and I've never

674
00:41:16,366 --> 00:41:20,102
gotten so many replies from a comment how you make a comment on LinkedIn or

675
00:41:20,126 --> 00:41:23,800
something and then you know, once almost virtually nobody

676
00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:27,860
replies to that comment. But I've gotten a lot of replies to this comment. What

677
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,332
I wrote was because the margins suck, there's a

678
00:41:31,356 --> 00:41:34,932
generational gap in sales. There's too much

679
00:41:34,956 --> 00:41:38,612
crap was brought into the market souring the

680
00:41:38,636 --> 00:41:42,404
taste for wine, pun intended. But there is a,

681
00:41:42,492 --> 00:41:45,396
there's light at the end of the tunnel and that wine's been around for 12,000

682
00:41:45,468 --> 00:41:49,062
plus years and it's not going anywhere. In other words,

683
00:41:49,126 --> 00:41:52,790
all these sort of market cycles and things that go on really

684
00:41:52,830 --> 00:41:56,566
are, are ineffective to the longevity and the value

685
00:41:56,638 --> 00:41:59,942
of the proper glass of wine. And I say that because there's a lot of

686
00:41:59,966 --> 00:42:03,126
lift service right now on the Internet, LinkedIn social

687
00:42:03,278 --> 00:42:06,886
about innovation and the marketplace. What we're going to do this,

688
00:42:06,958 --> 00:42:10,742
it's this catastrophic, you know, Dip in sales. And, you

689
00:42:10,766 --> 00:42:14,102
know, it's agricultural and it has its ebbs and

690
00:42:14,126 --> 00:42:17,832
flows. There are foods and services that ebb and

691
00:42:17,856 --> 00:42:21,420
flow as well with popularity. But I don't think wine,

692
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,104
wine being agricultural and having to be five to 10 years out, that you have

693
00:42:26,112 --> 00:42:29,832
to look at your marketplace and hopefully predict what's going to happen and you

694
00:42:29,856 --> 00:42:33,512
can't. And so now we stuck with the glut and prices are dropping and

695
00:42:33,536 --> 00:42:37,208
sales are dropping, but I don't see it as catastrophic. What's

696
00:42:37,224 --> 00:42:40,728
your sense of that? Well, this is definitely a much needed market

697
00:42:40,784 --> 00:42:44,594
correction, I think, from what happened, especially during the, I mean, the pandemic

698
00:42:44,642 --> 00:42:48,434
was just a very, very strange thing for everybody. Not just the wine

699
00:42:48,482 --> 00:42:52,082
industry, but certainly there was a huge spike

700
00:42:52,146 --> 00:42:55,938
in sales. Yeah. For wine

701
00:42:55,954 --> 00:42:59,442
and spirits, for obvious reasons. How do we

702
00:42:59,466 --> 00:43:03,074
elevate the everyday when we're stuck at home? And

703
00:43:03,162 --> 00:43:06,674
certainly it was helpful. But then people, you know, when people drank their sellers and

704
00:43:06,682 --> 00:43:09,762
then they decided to buy more and then they bought more and they would. One

705
00:43:09,786 --> 00:43:13,234
of the wonderful things that during that time was that people would, would call me

706
00:43:13,242 --> 00:43:15,762
up at work and be like, I'd like to be able to send a case

707
00:43:15,786 --> 00:43:18,610
of wines to my daughter because I can't visit her this year. You know, things

708
00:43:18,650 --> 00:43:22,450
like that, ways to show camaraderie and friendship and love, which was

709
00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:26,178
wonderful. And that's what wine's always been about too. Right. Good thought.

710
00:43:26,234 --> 00:43:29,874
But then, but then market correction. Right. You know, we're seeing that with like, you

711
00:43:29,882 --> 00:43:32,818
know, champagne sales continue to fall, et cetera, et cetera. Champagne's not going to become

712
00:43:32,874 --> 00:43:36,642
irrelevant. I don't think anytime soon. There will be, like

713
00:43:36,666 --> 00:43:39,838
you said, ebbs and flows. But I think it is a good, There is always

714
00:43:39,894 --> 00:43:43,662
a good opportunity for us to think

715
00:43:43,686 --> 00:43:47,454
about, you know, the industry folks to think about. Can we rest on our

716
00:43:47,462 --> 00:43:50,350
laurels? Can we always just keep doing things the way they are? It's always great

717
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:53,710
to look around and see, well, you know, how can we meet people where they

718
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:57,342
are? Who are these people? You know, we have to

719
00:43:57,366 --> 00:44:00,942
remember that and be able to speak to them in the way

720
00:44:00,966 --> 00:44:04,494
that meets them where they are. It's an opportunity

721
00:44:04,542 --> 00:44:08,350
to just, you know, continue to evolve with the world. Because as wine has

722
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:11,278
continued to evolve the world throughout the centuries, since

723
00:44:11,334 --> 00:44:14,974
antiquity. So I think it's, it's,

724
00:44:15,022 --> 00:44:18,014
it's more of a nuanced approach, but

725
00:44:18,182 --> 00:44:21,902
largely it's been able to come through, you

726
00:44:21,926 --> 00:44:25,694
know. But I think it's always good that we have more competition.

727
00:44:25,742 --> 00:44:28,782
People like, oh, you Know, people are going to cannabis or they're. They're going to

728
00:44:28,806 --> 00:44:32,504
RTD, you know, cocktails, etc. I'm like, well, that's good. It's good for the

729
00:44:32,512 --> 00:44:36,152
consumer always to have more choice. Sure. And it's just,

730
00:44:36,256 --> 00:44:39,992
you know, how do we. How do we find our place in that? You know,

731
00:44:40,016 --> 00:44:43,592
and what's the use case? Right. So Barefoot Bubbly with

732
00:44:43,616 --> 00:44:46,920
Galo has an incredibly great use case, but. And they've been very

733
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,680
successful with that. And so it just depends, like, what is. Who are you

734
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,160
trying to be? Who are you trying to reach? What are you trying to be

735
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,888
to them? Right. So funny you said that. I had Mike

736
00:44:56,984 --> 00:45:00,400
Houlihan on the show with Bonnie, his partner,

737
00:45:00,820 --> 00:45:04,412
you know, the creator of. The creator of Barefoot. Yeah. And I had this

738
00:45:04,436 --> 00:45:08,012
anecdotal story because in 1989, he came to my office and I just started with

739
00:45:08,036 --> 00:45:11,676
my father, and we had this little tiny warehouse in. In Redondo beach.

740
00:45:11,708 --> 00:45:15,436
And really, I mean, literally, you could barely stand up in the second floor

741
00:45:15,468 --> 00:45:18,860
office that we had. And he came to visit and he had just acquired this

742
00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:22,732
40,000 gallons of. Of. Of red wine. I don't remember what

743
00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:25,404
vintage, what the varietal it was. Didn't know what to do with it. It was

744
00:45:25,412 --> 00:45:29,052
a debt somebody had paid him, a debt in wine. And so he

745
00:45:29,076 --> 00:45:32,572
would never been in the business trying to figure it out. And so he came

746
00:45:32,596 --> 00:45:36,284
up with this barefoot thing. He's gotten the name from

747
00:45:36,372 --> 00:45:40,108
Davis Bynum. They had a retired label that they called

748
00:45:40,244 --> 00:45:43,932
Barefoot Barefoot Sellers. Anyway, I called my

749
00:45:43,956 --> 00:45:47,196
father after he left, and he's a very hyper dude. And I called my dad.

750
00:45:47,228 --> 00:45:50,012
I go, dad, you won't believe this guy. He comes in here and he's got

751
00:45:50,036 --> 00:45:53,516
this wine. He calls it, you know, the Lafitte feet

752
00:45:53,708 --> 00:45:57,488
of the California wine. And I was so like, you know, I didn't even.

753
00:45:57,544 --> 00:46:01,168
I wasn't even in the wine trade yet, effectively, but I still thought that was,

754
00:46:01,224 --> 00:46:04,976
you know, sacrilegious. And I thought, what a stupid

755
00:46:05,008 --> 00:46:08,032
idea. And I told Mike this on the podcast. I said, we thought this is

756
00:46:08,056 --> 00:46:11,552
the stupidest idea ever, even though it became the biggest brand in America. You

757
00:46:11,576 --> 00:46:15,200
know about that. But this is something you said

758
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:17,900
important, and we're running out of time, but I want to address it.

759
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,734
And I think wine is totally different than anything else in this regard. And that

760
00:46:22,742 --> 00:46:26,238
is when you said, meet them where they're at. You know, there was a post

761
00:46:26,294 --> 00:46:30,126
on Facebook the other day, if somebody had gone to Paris Wine and.

762
00:46:30,198 --> 00:46:33,886
And spoke with a vendor and they were touting that they had just sold

763
00:46:33,918 --> 00:46:37,342
24 million cans or bottles or something of,

764
00:46:37,526 --> 00:46:41,230
of a wine fermented grape juice product and

765
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:44,622
how exciting that was. But it was peach flavored,

766
00:46:44,766 --> 00:46:48,174
whatever. Okay. So I mean, I suppose that's

767
00:46:48,222 --> 00:46:51,960
meeting the consumer where they're at, right? They're able to sell

768
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,700
24 million bottles. Yeah, that's pretty good, Pretty good number.

769
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,860
But gosh, doesn't that fly in the face of what, you know,

770
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,960
a good glass of wine could be, an honest glass of wine. This whole thing

771
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,640
that we started the conversation about how it brings people together and they talk about

772
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,432
it, I mean, are you going to talk about your peach flavored. Well, you know

773
00:47:11,456 --> 00:47:14,792
what it could be. It's, it's, you know, like people talk about what's, what's your

774
00:47:14,816 --> 00:47:18,224
starter, you know, thing. Right. What gets you into the category.

775
00:47:18,272 --> 00:47:22,112
Right. I mean, remember Boone's Farm strawberry? We sold a lot of

776
00:47:22,136 --> 00:47:25,936
that. Right. So does, do people brag about that? Maybe not, but there's

777
00:47:25,968 --> 00:47:29,344
good memories built on that. Perhaps just like the Barefoot Peach, you know, whatever it

778
00:47:29,352 --> 00:47:32,832
is. And then maybe later they'll be, they'll be exploring some other things when they

779
00:47:32,856 --> 00:47:36,384
have learned a little bit more. They see, they see other bottles in

780
00:47:36,392 --> 00:47:39,312
restaurants and they, then they get a little bit more spending power and they'd be

781
00:47:39,336 --> 00:47:43,072
like, what's that? Right. So they already have an entree, which I think is really

782
00:47:43,096 --> 00:47:46,192
important. And the other aspect of meeting them where they're at is sort of like,

783
00:47:46,216 --> 00:47:49,984
you know, messaging in general too. Right. You know, so, you know,

784
00:47:50,152 --> 00:47:53,776
maybe not just like, you know, showing a fancy looking label

785
00:47:53,808 --> 00:47:57,632
and saying like, you know, drink tradition, you know, something like that.

786
00:47:57,736 --> 00:48:01,104
It's not that people are doing that per se, but you know, a lot of,

787
00:48:01,192 --> 00:48:04,752
I mean there's so many proliferating articles about like how to reach audiences on

788
00:48:04,776 --> 00:48:08,544
TikTok, you know, and that sort of thing. Like, you know, keep it bite sized,

789
00:48:08,592 --> 00:48:11,840
keep it like, you know, about behind the scenes, you know, that sort of thing.

790
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,694
And I'm showing people doing crush or whatever and keeping

791
00:48:15,742 --> 00:48:19,470
irreverent and very small bite sized little, you know,

792
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:23,294
segments, video segments. Right, there's that.

793
00:48:23,382 --> 00:48:26,890
But I think, you know, that can be useful as well.

794
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:30,542
But at the same time, I think it's all those things like what is it

795
00:48:30,566 --> 00:48:34,366
that they do want, do they want the peach flavor to start with?

796
00:48:34,438 --> 00:48:37,822
Right. You know, or just in general. Right. They want it to be

797
00:48:37,846 --> 00:48:40,702
sessionable. They want to be able to bring it to the, to the beach or

798
00:48:40,726 --> 00:48:44,424
to. Or they want to Be able to be at Coachella music festivals and, you

799
00:48:44,432 --> 00:48:48,152
know, not be carrying around stemmed glassware or even, you know, whatever it

800
00:48:48,176 --> 00:48:50,980
is. Right. So. But still have a great time. And,

801
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,432
and it's, it's, it's taking those into things into account.

802
00:48:55,536 --> 00:48:59,272
You have to say, okay, is this us, though? Like, you know,

803
00:48:59,296 --> 00:49:02,200
do we, do we want to expand in that area? Or are we, are we,

804
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,752
you know, firmly where we're at, which makes sense for a lot of

805
00:49:05,776 --> 00:49:09,300
producers and then it maybe doesn't make sense for others. So it's like,

806
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:13,774
interesting thought because, you know, 70s had white zinfandel.

807
00:49:13,822 --> 00:49:17,614
You said Bartles and James Boone's farm. Maybe some of

808
00:49:17,622 --> 00:49:20,850
the memories of Boone farm aren't so great if you're in high school, but whatever.

809
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:25,422
But that's an interesting thought because I had. Chad Ludington is coming on the show.

810
00:49:25,446 --> 00:49:28,718
I don't know if you know him, but he's quite the academic historian of wine.

811
00:49:28,814 --> 00:49:32,638
And he was saying that. And this goes

812
00:49:32,654 --> 00:49:36,446
to your idea of, well, people come to the table with something peach flavored

813
00:49:36,478 --> 00:49:40,172
wines, Boone's Farm, and then they, eventually we'll move into

814
00:49:40,276 --> 00:49:43,932
something more. More a finer wine, let's say. And

815
00:49:43,956 --> 00:49:47,200
he said that there's a doctor,

816
00:49:47,620 --> 00:49:51,340
a PhD anyway, who's discovered

817
00:49:51,500 --> 00:49:55,196
why we get bored of the same

818
00:49:55,268 --> 00:49:58,560
profile and particularly sugared profile,

819
00:49:59,220 --> 00:50:02,924
that sweeter things tend to fall flat on our palates

820
00:50:02,972 --> 00:50:06,604
eventually. And we want more complexity, more dryness and necessarily

821
00:50:06,652 --> 00:50:10,424
talking about wine only, but that our palates evol from tasting

822
00:50:10,472 --> 00:50:14,088
the same old thing over and over again. And this is why there's hope

823
00:50:14,144 --> 00:50:17,992
for people that start with peach flavored wines and for the

824
00:50:18,016 --> 00:50:21,864
industry to move into other things. But here's really what I want to get

825
00:50:21,872 --> 00:50:25,560
to wrap this up. But there's a lot of complaining

826
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,144
on the web about innovation and the wine industry slow and the wine industry blah,

827
00:50:29,192 --> 00:50:32,904
blah, blah. And I keep thinking to myself a. Yeah, it is slow

828
00:50:32,952 --> 00:50:36,792
because it's only once a year, right? You, you can make cider whenever you

829
00:50:36,816 --> 00:50:39,462
want, you can make soda whenever you want, you can make beer whenever you want,

830
00:50:39,486 --> 00:50:43,238
but you can't make wine whenever you want. So that cycle is minimum of 12

831
00:50:43,294 --> 00:50:46,730
months. Besides barrel aging and everything, everything else

832
00:50:47,310 --> 00:50:50,214
and the other is there's, there's a lot of smart people in this industry. I

833
00:50:50,222 --> 00:50:53,650
mean, we're not, it's not just farmers, which is, of course, one of the

834
00:50:54,270 --> 00:50:57,974
requirements to be in this industry is to be farm oriented, but

835
00:50:58,062 --> 00:51:01,654
agricultural oriented. But there's a lot of people that have come from other industries that

836
00:51:01,662 --> 00:51:05,400
have made a lot of money or been very successful. Industries have, industries

837
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,872
have brought their knowledge base, their drive, their

838
00:51:08,896 --> 00:51:12,712
enthusiasm, their inspiration to the industry. And it,

839
00:51:12,816 --> 00:51:16,584
it kind of gets to me that the whole industry is being categorized as behind,

840
00:51:16,672 --> 00:51:20,280
not innovative. They don't listen to the people and all the things that go along

841
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,152
with, I'm sure the articles you've read or heard about. And, and

842
00:51:24,176 --> 00:51:27,400
that's just an opinion I'm looking for. It's like I have this problem with that

843
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,176
accusation on the two premises. One is it's

844
00:51:31,208 --> 00:51:34,266
very slow because once a year. And two, how can you say that when there's

845
00:51:34,298 --> 00:51:38,122
so many smart people that do this? I know,

846
00:51:38,146 --> 00:51:41,430
it's interesting. Thank you. And you.

847
00:51:42,130 --> 00:51:45,402
So many, so many people out there. This industry is very inspiring. I absolutely agree

848
00:51:45,426 --> 00:51:49,242
with you. Just the people, the people in this industry are amazing. And the

849
00:51:49,266 --> 00:51:52,410
more I meet, the more inspired I am and just like, wow, you know, again,

850
00:51:52,450 --> 00:51:56,202
there's so much to learn and so much to share. But you know,

851
00:51:56,226 --> 00:51:59,818
it's interesting how perception can become, you know, a form of reality. Right.

852
00:51:59,954 --> 00:52:03,658
And I think there might be an echo chamber, a bit of an echo

853
00:52:03,674 --> 00:52:07,430
chamber effect happening with this because you know, a lot of

854
00:52:07,470 --> 00:52:11,302
this happens in media now. I mean people, I mean a lot

855
00:52:11,326 --> 00:52:14,374
of people are, journalists are trying to do their very best. But then there's a

856
00:52:14,382 --> 00:52:17,718
lot of other, there's a lot of outlets that sort of, you know, maybe it's

857
00:52:17,734 --> 00:52:21,398
even AI now that's just taking those and scraping those and summarizing them in

858
00:52:21,454 --> 00:52:25,286
a, in, in a bite sized form and missing some of the important

859
00:52:25,358 --> 00:52:28,918
concepts. Right. So that could be part of it. But I think

860
00:52:29,054 --> 00:52:32,472
more to your point, you know, I

861
00:52:32,496 --> 00:52:36,328
think, I think the fine industry has been actually

862
00:52:36,384 --> 00:52:39,320
quite innovative, especially in the last 10 years,

863
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,100
packaging, you know,

864
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:46,504
cocktails, you know, craft cocktails, getting, you

865
00:52:46,512 --> 00:52:49,768
know, wine into that, especially for fortified. I mean if you look at what Croft

866
00:52:49,864 --> 00:52:53,208
has, has done and you know, the port industry has done in general and, and

867
00:52:53,264 --> 00:52:56,982
really trying, and, and Sherry trying to get, you know, their, their,

868
00:52:57,096 --> 00:53:00,618
their wines into craft cocktails. I mean that has taken

869
00:53:00,674 --> 00:53:03,898
some, some traction, right? Yeah, it's really, really fun

870
00:53:03,954 --> 00:53:07,754
stuff. And then. Yeah, besides packaging, besides that,

871
00:53:07,762 --> 00:53:11,146
you know, and also just, you know, what it, what it means, you know, like

872
00:53:11,218 --> 00:53:14,890
wine, wine and cans being sessionable even

873
00:53:14,930 --> 00:53:18,714
in bag and box and things like that. Turning the tide with Tallest Creek, you

874
00:53:18,722 --> 00:53:22,410
know, really lending a lot of legitimacy to this on a, on,

875
00:53:22,450 --> 00:53:26,248
on a, you know, close to a premium level now.

876
00:53:26,384 --> 00:53:30,136
So I mean, that's really fascinating. I think there's just more risk taking actually happening

877
00:53:30,168 --> 00:53:33,864
and more risk taking happening in the side where consumers really aren't seeing

878
00:53:33,912 --> 00:53:37,384
it, unfortunately, which is, you know, in, in the

879
00:53:37,392 --> 00:53:41,160
vineyard, like, because of climate change, you know, what, what great

880
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,000
varieties are we choosing now? Are we changing that? Are we moving sites or

881
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,616
we have greater sustainable practices. And this is where I do see some activity

882
00:53:48,648 --> 00:53:52,340
happening, which is great. Which is the message of what are we doing

883
00:53:52,730 --> 00:53:56,530
to. To be sustainable? What are we doing to. To make sure that

884
00:53:56,570 --> 00:54:00,082
we're doing stuff that is not harming generations to

885
00:54:00,106 --> 00:54:03,906
come. Right. Whether it's the land, whether it's the animals, whether it's

886
00:54:03,938 --> 00:54:07,618
people, everything, Right? So, and that really fits into, again, meeting

887
00:54:07,674 --> 00:54:11,346
people where they are and what narratives they are, they, they are attuned

888
00:54:11,378 --> 00:54:14,802
to right now. So I think that that is a great place of

889
00:54:14,906 --> 00:54:18,626
change, innovation. Because, you know, there's a, there's a saying that my aunt

890
00:54:18,658 --> 00:54:21,442
used to say was, you know, like, oh, you know what I said? Like she

891
00:54:21,466 --> 00:54:25,058
was being courageous about something because I always think she's fearless. She said, you know,

892
00:54:25,194 --> 00:54:28,786
courage, courage is always just scared out of you. That's

893
00:54:28,818 --> 00:54:32,562
right. And it doesn't translate as well from Chinese, but I think

894
00:54:32,586 --> 00:54:35,202
you get the point. And I think that's really what it is like, you know,

895
00:54:35,226 --> 00:54:39,010
climate change, other realities that then those outside pressures will force

896
00:54:39,090 --> 00:54:42,754
innovation. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I, but I

897
00:54:42,762 --> 00:54:46,092
think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of good momentum going

898
00:54:46,226 --> 00:54:50,056
for this in terms of innovation in an industry. But again, to your point,

899
00:54:50,128 --> 00:54:53,960
it does happen. Maybe some of the aspects happen more slowly, but some of

900
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,780
the commercial aspects I think are happening really well. It's a questioning of

901
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,648
reaching people in terms of. That's a great argument. I didn't

902
00:55:02,664 --> 00:55:06,424
think of that in the argument in defense of the industry

903
00:55:06,512 --> 00:55:10,328
that sustainability, biodynamic farming, organic farming is

904
00:55:10,384 --> 00:55:14,114
innovation. It just to keep up with. And it's

905
00:55:14,162 --> 00:55:17,954
hard innovation because those are long cycle things. Just to

906
00:55:17,962 --> 00:55:21,746
become organic takes minimum three years kind of thing. So I didn't

907
00:55:21,778 --> 00:55:25,490
think of that. I think that's a great analogy and description of

908
00:55:25,530 --> 00:55:29,378
what the wine industry has done. And that's a mega, you know, that's a mega

909
00:55:29,394 --> 00:55:32,818
one. That's a macro change in innovation because

910
00:55:32,874 --> 00:55:36,274
that, that is hard. And I'm not sure I agree with all the

911
00:55:36,282 --> 00:55:39,630
certification required and all that, but I think in general the thought process for

912
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:43,470
wineries to be sustainable and probably, probably

913
00:55:43,550 --> 00:55:47,210
an industry that is most likely to benefit and

914
00:55:47,590 --> 00:55:50,622
most obvious to have

915
00:55:50,726 --> 00:55:54,462
sustainability along with organic farming, which, you know,

916
00:55:54,486 --> 00:55:57,630
that whole argument, that's a whole other discussion. But I'm gonna ask you a quick

917
00:55:57,670 --> 00:56:00,462
question and we're gonna call it a day. Started in 56 minutes. But this is

918
00:56:00,486 --> 00:56:04,222
a book written in. It was originally a French book. It's called Wine is

919
00:56:04,246 --> 00:56:07,852
the Best Medicine. And since you're an academic, we're gonna ask you a question. And

920
00:56:07,876 --> 00:56:11,420
it's Dr. Murray, and he is an

921
00:56:11,460 --> 00:56:14,920
M.D. also homeopathic doctor. And he's written this book about

922
00:56:15,380 --> 00:56:18,480
human maladies and the curative

923
00:56:19,700 --> 00:56:23,452
character of a wine. And this is much like the mw. See, it's not

924
00:56:23,476 --> 00:56:27,324
about the answer necessarily, though the good answer. Right answer is good,

925
00:56:27,412 --> 00:56:30,812
but it's how you arrived at that answer. Like, why did you say

926
00:56:30,836 --> 00:56:34,492
that? So I'm going to give you a malady, and I'm going to give you

927
00:56:34,516 --> 00:56:38,304
three choices of French wines. Oh, my goodness. And that

928
00:56:38,312 --> 00:56:40,940
could solve this. Now, don't. You're not on the hot seat because

929
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,740
only 33% of people get it right. So it's really pretty much

930
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,460
random. Wow. Unless you study this guy.

931
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,728
So. And then there's. And then the. In the book, it tells you why he

932
00:56:53,864 --> 00:56:56,140
chose it. So if you, let's say, have

933
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,504
an allergy, would you have a glass of dry

934
00:57:01,552 --> 00:57:04,950
champagne? Would you have a Madoc

935
00:57:05,690 --> 00:57:09,202
red? Or would you have a coat de bone for an

936
00:57:09,226 --> 00:57:13,010
allergy? And why would you choose that? You mean

937
00:57:13,050 --> 00:57:16,510
like sort of a hay fever kind of allergy? Yeah, I guess we'll see.

938
00:57:18,010 --> 00:57:21,746
Yes. Could be metaphor. I mean, the.

939
00:57:21,898 --> 00:57:25,270
Okay, the research is, is still ongoing

940
00:57:25,930 --> 00:57:28,710
for histamines and biogenic amines.

941
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,592
But as we know, fennel just, you

942
00:57:33,616 --> 00:57:37,144
know, from, just speaking from

943
00:57:37,312 --> 00:57:41,112
the way that wine grapes are comprised of,

944
00:57:41,136 --> 00:57:44,872
you know, what they are comprised of, rather, the two red wines are

945
00:57:44,896 --> 00:57:47,944
going to have a higher level of biogenic amines and

946
00:57:47,952 --> 00:57:51,380
histamines. So

947
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,340
in that case, we would go with the champagne because it might, just might

948
00:57:55,380 --> 00:57:58,652
just be a light and make you feel better in general.

949
00:57:58,836 --> 00:58:02,364
But, you know, it's. Of course the Cote de Bonne is going to be a

950
00:58:02,372 --> 00:58:06,188
little lighter as well. And the tannins, tannin content

951
00:58:06,244 --> 00:58:09,980
is lighter. And that. Then of course, the, the, the third

952
00:58:10,020 --> 00:58:13,148
wine there would be the richest in that. And of course, people who would, who

953
00:58:13,204 --> 00:58:16,780
love, who love a richer mouth feel and just a little bit more

954
00:58:16,820 --> 00:58:20,604
texture and tannins on those wines are going to love those. Because I know just,

955
00:58:20,692 --> 00:58:24,172
just from like, you know, anecdotal evidence, no matter what people say they like or

956
00:58:24,196 --> 00:58:26,972
don't, if they like Something. Whether they have an allergy or not, they'll still feel

957
00:58:26,996 --> 00:58:30,560
better after drinking that. Okay, that's funny.

958
00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:35,372
Who answered? Who said that once? That was one of the guests. And they like,

959
00:58:35,396 --> 00:58:39,228
well, it doesn't really matter. Oh, it was a PhD doctor. She,

960
00:58:39,284 --> 00:58:42,124
I forgot which PhD was it? But she's like, it doesn't matter. You're going to

961
00:58:42,132 --> 00:58:44,880
feel better. Well, I'm sorry to say this. It was the Madoc.

962
00:58:45,860 --> 00:58:49,422
And it's, it's funny because it says it's because of

963
00:58:49,446 --> 00:58:53,262
the potassium and the reactions. It

964
00:58:53,286 --> 00:58:56,926
says, talking about allergies. Reactions appear as secretions in the mucous

965
00:58:56,958 --> 00:58:59,070
membranes or edema of the

966
00:58:59,110 --> 00:59:02,462
subcutaneous cellular

967
00:59:02,526 --> 00:59:06,190
tissue produced by an excess of serious production. These

968
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:09,790
unpleasant reactions do not prohibit the reasonable use of an appropriate

969
00:59:09,870 --> 00:59:13,342
wine. And I said Madoc because it's rich in natural

970
00:59:13,406 --> 00:59:16,992
potassium. This alkaline metal in small doses

971
00:59:17,056 --> 00:59:19,540
acts as a water excretion.

972
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,832
Okay, okay, you've gone out from that aspect, which is really

973
00:59:24,856 --> 00:59:28,672
cool. And I didn't know that about potassium in terms of secretion, so that's really

974
00:59:28,696 --> 00:59:32,048
interesting. I was thinking about it from like a hay fever point of view, which,

975
00:59:32,104 --> 00:59:35,824
you know, people take antihistamines for. Yeah, no, that, that makes a ton of

976
00:59:35,832 --> 00:59:39,568
sense because, you know, people complain that the sulfites are giving them problems. It's

977
00:59:39,584 --> 00:59:43,434
really not. Okay. Well then let's see if we get this right. The, the,

978
00:59:43,602 --> 00:59:46,714
the dosage. I mean, he's a doctor, so he's getting a

979
00:59:46,722 --> 00:59:49,750
prescription. I love this.

980
00:59:50,290 --> 00:59:54,106
Sorry. It's two glasses a meal, which would be effectively

981
00:59:54,218 --> 00:59:56,950
probably back then a bottle a day.

982
00:59:57,810 --> 01:00:01,306
That's not so bad. Wow.

983
01:00:01,338 --> 01:00:05,082
Anyways, fun book written in the 70s. You can get it in French and

984
01:00:05,106 --> 01:00:08,580
you can get it in the French and English. It's called Wine is the Best

985
01:00:08,620 --> 01:00:12,404
Medicine. That's fascinating. I'm gonna have to read this. Well, we're gonna have to

986
01:00:12,412 --> 01:00:14,772
do this again because we have so much more to talk about. But that's the

987
01:00:14,796 --> 01:00:18,612
end of today's session and I do call it a session. It's kind of like

988
01:00:18,636 --> 01:00:22,084
a psychiatrist session because we can air some of this stuff out. It's such a

989
01:00:22,092 --> 01:00:25,924
pleasure to have you on the show. Likewise. It's. I love speaking with

990
01:00:25,932 --> 01:00:28,916
you. I mean, I feel like we could, we could just keep talking and I.

991
01:00:28,988 --> 01:00:31,412
So much to learn from you. I know. So I can't wait till the next

992
01:00:31,436 --> 01:00:35,102
time. I appreciate that. We will do it again. And, and I'm going

993
01:00:35,126 --> 01:00:38,366
to watch a couple more of your videos here and read more of your documents.

994
01:00:38,398 --> 01:00:42,222
So we get back together, we can dig a little deeper. Thank you. I

995
01:00:42,246 --> 01:00:45,830
would love that. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.